Pathfinder Brute Rogue Build

[Vattic]

Hi guys! I've come to really respect the advice that I've gotten from you in the past so I thought if you didn't mind I'd try my luck one more time.

I recently took a look at all of the rogue archetypes for the first time and I was struck with a probably very unoriginal idea.

In a nut shell, I saw the opportunity to build a rogue that uses the Scout archetype's Skirmish ability to deliver massive bludgeoning damage with an earthbreaker or a lucerne hammer (using the feats bludgeoner, sap adept and sap master) to bring down their foes quickly, quietly and efficiently. Paired with the Thug archetype by 8th level I could be getting what amounts to basically an auto-stun in the first round of combat, plus double sneak attack non lethal damage, provided I move at least 10 feet.

I'm pretty sure it would work, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I was hoping to work spring attack in there even though I realize it's a terribly expensive feat tree, especially for the poor rogue. Still, I really like the idea of an incredibly strong, stealthy rogue who strikes then fades away. If any of you are familiar with the Eidos game Thief this whole sapping business should sound familiar.

I'm thinking of taking barbarian first, Urban archetype so I can get that tasty +4 bonus to str or con or dex without the ac penalty, as well as fast movement. After that, mostly rogue but I'm also considering a dip into shadowdancer just for Hide in Plain Sight. I'm aiming for an 12th level build.

Thought, criticisms, Scandolous Insults?

Thanks guys!

Vattic

[Menteith]

In a nut shell, I saw the opportunity to build a rogue that uses the Scout archetype's Skirmish ability to deliver massive bludgeoning damage with an earthbreaker or a lucerne hammer (using the feats bludgeoner, sap adept and sap master) to bring down their foes quickly, quietly and efficiently. Paired with the Thug archetype by 8th level I could be getting what amounts to basically an auto-stun in the first round of combat, plus double sneak attack non lethal damage, provided I move at least 10 feet.

"She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty."

That line puts in unfortunate hamper on the build. I would recommend carrying both a Whip (for the 15' range on it) and a Sap (for any armored target, as Whips can't do damage to anything on hard targets), and relying on the SA damage instead of weapon damage. If you want to stay in Rogue and pick up proficiencies, you can take Swashbuckler instead of Thug, giving you any Martial, letting you trade an additional talent for a Combat Feat, and boosting your Acrobatics checks (which is valuable if you're going for a high mobility build). You're going to have even more issues than a normal rogue with Undead/Constructs though, as you're not going to be able to even damage them with nonlethal.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

as before, sap master, etc. only works on NON-LETHAL bludgeoning damage. if you want a melee brute rogue, I would go with a Half-Orc for Falchion Proficiency, snag Power Attack, and go to town as an enforcer type character. Scout is a good archetype in any case, though you might like Thug or Rake as well.

Sap Adept etc. is a great rogue trick... but be prepared to knife your fallen foes with your off hand once you knock 'em out with a single blow.

[Curious]

This could work with a merciful weapon.

[Vattic]

"She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty."

That line puts in unfortunate hamper on the build.

where is that from? i just looked up bludgeoner on d20pfsrd and if you go down to where it says "Special:" the feat states that "A rogue with this feat can use a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage with a sneak attack."

so.. it seems doable, at least from where i'm standing.

thanks for the replies, fellas.

[Cieyrin]

where is that from? i just looked up bludgeoner on d20pfsrd and if you go down to where it says "Special:" the feat states that "A rogue with this feat can use a lethal bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage with a sneak attack."

so.. it seems doable, at least from where i'm standing.

thanks for the replies, fellas.

You are correct, Bludgeoner is designed for a Rogue to do precisely what you're doing with it. I suspect Bludgeoner -> Sap line was the intent. What I don't understand is where Thug == auto-stun, since Frightened means they run. Maybe you meant Rake, which gets to Intimidate as part of a successful Sneak via Bravado's Blade?

As for Urban Barbarian, if you go that path to pick up a martial bludgeoning weapon, I'd suggest considering Furious Finish for an additional damage spike, though I'd pick up 2 levels of Barbarian so you can grab Roused Anger to jump back into Rage right after and make Furious Finish a super move for you.

Other thoughts is Bludgeoner -> Sap line works with firearms, since they do Bludgeoning damage, so you could pick up a double hackbut or cannon to do silly amounts of damage via Furious Finish and Sap Master. Just...something to think about. :smallwink:

[Crasical]

Other thoughts is Bludgeoner -> Sap line works with firearms, since they do Bludgeoning damage, so you could pick up a double hackbut or cannon to do silly amounts of damage via Furious Finish and Sap Master. Just...something to think about. :smallwink:

I was just showing the first episode of that anime to a friend when I found this thread.

http://images.wikia.com/grenadier/images/7/79/Rushuna.jpg

For those unfamiliar with the show, she's a martial pacifist and shoots a lot of people, but always nonfatally.

[Curious]

I was just showing the first episode of that anime to a friend when I found this thread.

http://images.wikia.com/grenadier/images/7/79/Rushuna.jpg

For those unfamiliar with the show, she's a martial pacifist and shoots a lot of people, but always nonfatally.

That sounds like a recipe for disaster. Even shooting someone in the leg is likely to cause some serious bleeding, and possibly cripple them. Not to mention, one miss-aimed shot and there goes the whole no-killing thing.

[Crasical]

That sounds like a recipe for disaster. Even shooting someone in the leg is likely to cause some serious bleeding, and possibly cripple them. Not to mention, one miss-aimed shot and there goes the whole no-killing thing.

If that sort of thing bothers you, may I suggest you not look into the series further? That's the -least- implausible thing Rushuna does with a firearm.

[Curious]

If that sort of thing bothers you, may I suggest you not look into the series further? That's the -least- implausible thing Rushuna does with a firearm.

Eh, it's not that I'm against over-the-top action and crazy stunts, it just seems silly to me that someone would actually say to themselves, 'hey, let's make a character who is a pacifist with guns.' Seems kind of counter-intuitive. Anyways, off-topic and all, so I'm out of this thread derail.

[Cieyrin]

Eh, it's not that I'm against over-the-top action and crazy stunts, it just seems silly to me that someone would actually say to themselves, 'hey, let's make a character who is a pacifist with guns.' Seems kind of counter-intuitive. Anyways, off-topic and all, so I'm out of this thread derail.

That's basically the premise of Trigun, that the main character is a pacifist with a gun, which he does do nonfatal wounds with. He shoots to disable, whether that's leg shots or arm shots so they can't continue to fight. He's almost supernaturally accurate, which helps, though the plot does swing around to when he does mess up and explains why he's so. It's really well done.

[JadePhoenix]

That's basically the premise of Trigun, that the main character is a pacifist with a gun, which he does do nonfatal wounds with. He shoots to disable, whether that's leg shots or arm shots so they can't continue to fight. He's almost supernaturally accurate, which helps, though the plot does swing around to when he does mess up and explains why he's so. It's really well done.

Also, Vash tries very hard not to shoot.
I mean, I think he shot his gun for the first time in the sixth episode or so.

[Vattic]

hmm, guns, eh? interesting. well once again you folks have proven invaluable. i'll take a look at the gun rules and see if i can work that into a build to compare with a two handed weapon bludgeoner. i'll repost em here when i finish so you can tear em apart :)


Thanks again guys!

[Vattic]

So, I'm working on this build and it's coming together pretty well. I'm not going to have a lot of leeway when it comes to feats, but that's to be expected with a rogue.

One thing that is causing me some trouble is that I'd like to use a Lucerne Hammer as my primary weapon.The only real downside is that being a reach weapon, I can't attack an adjacent enemy. Worse case scenario I can just quick draw a secondary weapon but I was hoping that there is a feat somewhere that I'm missing that will allow me to attack adjacent enemies with the hammer.

Any suggestions?

[Bhaakon]

As far as I'm aware, the only way to use a reach weapon to attack adjacent squares is to take levels two of fighter with the polearm master archetype (and you need to take a -4 attack penalty to do it).

Otherwise, you can wear a gauntlet and use that to attack adjacent opponents without burning a feat on quickdraw.

[Vattic]

ok, so I think I have a first draft of this character, and I'd love some feedback.

Concept wise, he is a large thuggish looking man (picture Titus Pullo from HBO's Rome, seen here on the left)

http://pics.livejournal.com/lay_of_luthien/pic/008a0715

who was sold into slavery as a young man. He was a savage fighter before his will was broken down (i'll spare you the sob story) and he decided that the best way to survive was just to shut up and do as he was told.

As he matures, he becomes renowned for his competency, obedience and his size/strength which easily sets him apart from the other slaves. He tries to run on several occasions but he is always beaten and returned, usually through magical means because not many mundanes can match him without resorting to arcane methods. In the end, he becomes a hunter of runaway slaves himself, excelling at capturing them alive. He justifies this because he believes that if any other bounty hunter found them, they would be killed or crippled and he can easily capture them with no lasting damage.

So he is a bit of a contradiction, a slave who wants to be free, but has the autonomy to hunt other slaves for his master. He is still property, but given a lot of leeway. He's hunting for a way to throw his master off his trail for good, but until that day comes he is keeping his head down and giving not even the slightest hint of disobedience.

So the build that I'm considering is this:

Human Barbarian 2 Rogue 10

Ability scores were rolled using 4d6 drop the lowest die 7 times, then drop the lowest set. I was incredibly fortunate, and for the first time in 10+ years gaming I rolled an 18!

Stats are
Str 22 (18 base, +2 human bonus, +2 level advancement)
Dex 16 (15 base, +1 level advancement)
Con 15
Wis 12
Int 12
Cha 12

I actually think these stats are too good, so I might self-nerf the cha and wisdom down to 10 and the con down to 15. I did roll them, but I don't want to have a large gap statwise between myself and the other PC's who chose to do a 30 point buy.

I'm going to use 3 different archetypes, so bear with me. The first is Urban Barbarian so that I can choose which stat to bump and avoid all of that temporary hit point BS. The second Archetype is the Rogue Scout path, so that every time I move 10 feet or more I get to activate my sneak attack. I plan to attack from ambush a lot, and charge a lot, so this makes sense.

The 3rd archetype is the Rogue Thug archetype which I can use to sicken an opponent by sacrificing one hit die of sneak attack.

Adding to that, my feats would be centered around Bludgeoner which allows me to sneak attack with a bludgeoning weapon non lethally, Sap Adept and Sap Master which allows me to double sneak attack damage when dealing non lethal bludgeoning damage. I'd add power attack, vital strike and furious finish to the mix, as well as quick draw.

Then there are rogue talents. My advanced talent would be hunter's surprise so that if I can't drop a bad guy in the first round then I get two more chances with full sneak attack dice. offensive defense sounds good, as does fast getaway, Underhanded which lets me deal max sneak attack damage with a surprise weapon, fast stealth, strong impression (str to intimidate), befuddling strike and follow clues.

So how does this all work together?

I think it will allow me to sneak attack from a charge (or just a simple movement) to deal massive non lethal damage.

I'd combine Rage, Power Attack, Vital Strike and Furious Finish with Bludgeoner, Sap Master, Underhanded, Befuddling Strike and Offensive Defense.

Yes, this seems crazy and I don't know how it will all shake out.

So here is a scenario:

I ambush a target who is unaware of me. I Rage, then Charge, Power Attack, Vital Strike, Furious Finish.

Base Attack = +9, Rage boosts that to +17, - 3 from Power Attack =+14, Charge adds a +2 to hit for a +16 to hit.

Let's say I hit.

My damage would be +12 from Raging and using a 2 handed weapon (8 + 1-1/2 x Str bonus =+12), +9 from power attack = +21. Vital Strike = roll damage twice and Furious Finish = Max weapon damage. So I think this means that I deal 24 on a successful hit. If not, then I at least deal 12.

So add that together, before sneak attack dice are figured in, a single hit should = either 45 damage or 33 damage depending on whether or not furious finish and vital strike double the weapon damage die or not.

Then I get into the Sneak Attack goodness. I get 5d6 extra on a sneak attack, and Sap Master lets me double sneak attack damage with a bludgeoning weapon for 10d6. If I can legally combine Underhanded with this then I get to max them out for a meaty 60 points of non lethal damage.

That nets me a total of 105 points of nonlethal damage in one surprise round. Even if Underhanded and Vital Strike+FuriousFinish don't work together like I think they do, that's still about 63 damage in one hit.

But I think Underhanded will work this way. Depending on how this first attack shakes out, next round I could use Roused anger to continue to Rage, then utilize Hunter's Surprise to full attack with sneak attack damage. I could choose to power attack, vital strike etc. depending on the circumstances. Or I could use Fast Getaway to return to cover, hide and attempt to ambush again.

There are other situations where I could quick draw a weapon, power attack using rage, vital strike, and furious finish as well as bludgeoner, sap master and underhanded. Offensive Defense and Befuddling Strike combined with the Brutal Beating ability from the thug archetype should keep me somewhat safe from reprisal.

What do you guys think? Am I totally insane, or is there legal synergy between all of this stuff, and will it make an interesting and effective build?

I can't wait to hear your suggestions, and thanks for reading this Massive Wall of Text.

[Cieyrin]

There's a couple things that don't mesh, specifically Vital Strike is Standard Action Attack only, which means it doesn't play nice with Charges at all. Vital Strike+Furious Finish can work nicely as part of Hunter's Surprise, though.

Underhanded has the dual problems of 1) concealed weapons have to be light or easily concealed ranged weapons (read: hand crossbow, coat pistol or similar), which I don't think Lucerne Hammers or Earthbreakers fall under in the least; 2) you can have only one rogue talent modify a sneak attack at a time, so you couldn't stack a bunch of sneak attack modifiers from talents.

Also, if you want to really push doing Sneak Attacks during Surprise Rounds, you might want to consider Bandit and Surprise Attacks, combined with firearms so you can get a full attack of Sneaks against somebody, for which I'd recommend grabbing a couple of Pepperboxes so you don't have to worry about reloading. Alternatively, you could go more low tech and grab a sling on a Halfling with Warslinger and be an unassuming knockout artist that way. :smallwink:

[Vattic]

Hmm, that's really interesting. I can see now how vital strike won't work (unfortunately).

Also, do you have a sample build for the firearm rogue that you've been mentioning? It sounds really neat.

[Cieyrin]

Hmm, that's really interesting. I can see now how vital strike won't work (unfortunately).

Also, do you have a sample build for the firearm rogue that you've been mentioning? It sounds really neat.

Yeah, Vital Strike could have been cooler if it was less locked down. Not necessarily AoO usable but if it at least applied to Charge, it would be nicer.

I don't have a sample build for a firearm rogue off-hand, it's more my musings as I've been looking at material to get back to work on my Gunslinger's Handbook sometime in the future. To really get the most out of firearms as a Rogue, I'd recommend mixing Pistolero Gunslinger (at least 5 levels for Dex to damage) with Bandit Rogue and picking up Firearm Training and Grit (preferably at the same level via Extra Rogue Talent), or just starting as a Rogue with Amateur Gunslinger so you can pick up an extra Deed (Focused Shot comes to mind as a good one, though Dead Eye isn't bad for making sure you're in Penetration range, if you don't go up to Gunslinger 7 for it). The key with that is Amateur Gunslinger says you CAN switch it Extra Grit, not that you MUST switch it to Extra Grit, so I'd frankly rather have a free deed and an extra point of grit than 2 points of grit.

So basically you're looking at some mix of Gunslinger 5/Rogue 7. The only point of contention is that Up Close and Deadly isn't technically Sneak Attack, though it has all the traits of and stacks with it, so you may want to get a DM approval for the damage to be treated the same, though you're only missing out on an extra 2d6, which, while annoying, is merely the difference between 10d6 and 12d6 (i.e. not a hell of a lot). You're also doing that damage against targets denied their armor, shield, natural armor, dodge and Dex to AC, which often comes out to AC 10, so Deadly Aim isn't a bad investment for this in the least.

[Vattic]

thanks for all of your great advice, Cieyrin. i really like your idea of a gunslinger bandit, sort of like Tuco Ramirez from "The Good the Bad and the Ugly."

would this be playable though? both classes are generous with skill points, and so i could be useful outside of combat, which i like, but inside of combat wouldn't a straight pistolero be more effective than a rogue/bandit/pistolero?

[Cieyrin]

thanks for all of your great advice, Cieyrin. i really like your idea of a gunslinger bandit, sort of like Tuco Ramirez from "The Good the Bad and the Ugly."

would this be playable though? both classes are generous with skill points, and so i could be useful outside of combat, which i like, but inside of combat wouldn't a straight pistolero be more effective than a rogue/bandit/pistolero?

Bandit is the archetype of Rogue in said build. And really, Rogue advances Sneak Attack faster than Pistolero will and without spending Grit to go about it. By picking up Focused Shot via Rogue talents, you can get a burst of damage by applying both Dex and Cha to damage, plus double sneak attack plus Up Close and Deadly for Sneak per shot on a chassis with BAB +9, which opens up Improved Critical and Critical Focus, which should help keep you in Grit. Also the fact that Pistolero + Sap Master doesn't necessarily work together, you need Rogue to keep that part of the build for driving people down good and quick.

[Vattic]

ok! this sounds really nice, but where is the charisma damage coming in? is that by combining it with mysterious stranger like you mentioned before or is it from some other source?

[Crasical]

Why not just keep a pair of brass knuckles to slug people with? They're easy to conceal and you only get the benefit of Underhanded in the surprise round, so you can swap to your better weapon after that point.

[Vattic]

Why not just keep a pair of brass knuckles to slug people with? They're easy to conceal and you only get the benefit of Underhanded in the surprise round, so you can swap to your better weapon after that point.

yeah, i was actually thinking about that last night. i guess that i just need a delivery system for sneak attack damage but i'm getting greedy by wanting to multiply base weapon damage as well.

good suggestion.

[Cieyrin]

ok! this sounds really nice, but where is the charisma damage coming in? is that by combining it with mysterious stranger like you mentioned before or is it from some other source?

That's a feature of keeping Amateur Gunslinger for the free Deed instead of trading it when you get it for free as part of the Grit Rogue Talent. Amateur Gunslinger lets you pick any 1st level deed, which include archetype deeds, which is how you can pick it up while being a Pistolero.