City Government (Please Help)

[The Bandicoot]

In this new world I'm creating, the main city is built around the ruins of the previous city that was utterly destroyed by an undead army. The ground in that area became tainted, and unspeakable horrors beat at the walls every day.

Now that you have a little bit of background on the center of the city, lets move onto the rest of it. The city is square shaped and divided into four quarters; The Tunnel Quarter(Also known as The Scaley Quarter), The Plains Quarter, The Original Quarter, and The Artisan Corner. Each quarter has a particular race as it's primary inhabitants. The Artisan has Elves, The Original has Humans, and The Plains has Halflings. Dwarves used to occupy The Tunnel quarter, but relations with the other races soured and an overal feralness came over the dwarves. The Kobolds, invigorated with new power and magics and under the banner of a new god took over the quarter and pushed out the dwarves.

Now, here is my issue. How does this city run itself? Any help and/or suggestions is welcome.

[motoko's ghost]

If its under constant siege, its probably a military government and a strict one at that, remember 28days later? something like that but not quite as intense.

[The Bandicoot]

If its under constant siege, its probably a military government and a strict one at that, remember 28days later? something like that but not quite as intense.

Oh I wouldn't call it a seige persay. Right now there aren't a LOT of unspeakable horrors and they aren't banging very hard at the walls.....yet Its just more of the fact that they're unspeakable and exist that's scaring them the most,

[Storm Bringer]

Now, here is my issue. How does this city run itself? Any help and/or suggestions is welcome.

right a few ideas:

if thiers unspeakable undead horrors kicking around outside the walls, then clerics, and by extention, faith, is going to be a major element of the politics. the Church (or churches, depending on how many faith are in this city) is going to be one of the big players in the city goverment, and i expect a lot of people will be rather religous. they are going to want, and get, big, fortified chruches that can both act as "last stand" islands in the case of a wall breach, and solidify the power of the clerics outside of "normal" government (since only the "faithful"/submissive would be let in if the walls break, the populance is eager to prove it loyalty to the clerics).


if the city has a seige mentality, then the army/city watch would also play a major, if more unoffical, role in the government. the commander of the city watch would be the uniformed head of the army, and his continued support would be vital for any ruler or ruling body. I would expect a lot of armed citizens militia, parhaps organised on a quarter basis, with each city block providing a squad. being a local defense force made up of volonteers, the members of the milita may place strict limits on where they can be deployed (so, for example, the elven Artisans milita won't go to support the Tunnel milita, but would only line the Quarter walls and "containt" the attack). Only City Watch troops would be able to act in all quarters, so keeping them sweet and willing to help out in a wall breech keeps the militias form thinking about revolt or dissent.


the actual goverment would likey be either a single "mayor" (or other title as you feel fit) with advisors drawn form the various power centres, or a council that puts the advisors on the same level as the "mayor". as i said before, the clerics will have a seat, as will the leader of the city watch. other possible advisors could include representitives form the Quarters (either one each, or maybe one per X people in the quarter, giving more populated quarters more say in government), master of the guild of smiths (who controls production for the war effort), master of provisions (who controls the food supply. does your city grow its own food inside the walls or is their somewhere outside the walls that food can be imported form?), Chief wizard of the mages guild, Harbour master (if the city is on a river or the coast), etc.

basically, if it is important to the running of a city, someone would be on the town council to fight its corner. One person could hold multiple "posts" (for example, being both the captain of the city watch and master of the guild of smiths). not allow councillers would need to be present at every meeting, with some maybe only turning up to one a month.

[The Bandicoot]

Thanks for the suggestions Storm. The city Had a river going through it but now it stops at the inner wall rather than going through the tainted area. I'm thinking of having a large 16 seat counsel with each quarter having a single representative for their religion, one for their military, one for trade, and one general rep.

[00dlez]

Just continuing Storm's thoughts and your summary of them

Have a central figure head be the military leader, tasked with the defense (and therefore the prosperity) of the city. There is a council formed of the power-players; each quarter is involved as well as the religious factions, then a handful of guilds and others as you see fit.
The churches wield their ability to hold back the dead as their bargaining chip. Their places of worship are fortresses, and while the military has their own strongholds, how long will they really last?

You can use the quarter/religious dynamics to have a political struggle that the PCs can either work to neutralize or maybe side with a faction and get them into power.

[The Bandicoot]

The way I figure is that the quarters are so vastly different they are like their own cities. Also, even though they get along well enough to coexist there are still racial tensions. Especially with the kobolds recent(relatively so) rise to power I'm not sure they could all agree on a single military leader. The way I'm thinking is that all he reps from a particular race meet biweekly. Then on the alternating weeks the groups(I.e. military, trade, etc) meet. Then, on the last day of the month everyone meets in a large council.

[motoko's ghost]

Would there also be tensions among the religions(see this as sign of doomsday,etc and the result of people sinning/not worshipping their god,etc) and the other religions and/or people?

[The Bandicoot]

Ah, I guess I forgot to mention they the gods in my game are a little more involved. But in this city each race's gods act more like advisors. So when the religious leaders get together it's more for the sharing of resources and helping the poor and such.

[motoko's ghost]

Ah, I guess I forgot to mention they the gods in my game are a little more involved. But in this city each race's gods act more like advisors. So when the religious leaders get together it's more for the sharing of resources and helping the poor and such.

Oh god, I just had this mental image or Thor going door to door and saying "worship me, or else" before Pelor walks up and slugs him one.

Okay, that works too.

[The Bandicoot]

Oh god, I just had this mental image or Thor going door to door and saying "worship me, or else" before Pelor walks up and slugs him one.

Okay, that works too.

Yeah some of the other gods have more directly influenced the mortal world. For example, Pelor actually runs a small country through his avatar.

[Storm Bringer]

The way I figure is that the quarters are so vastly different they are like their own cities. Also, even though they get along well enough to coexist there are still racial tensions. Especially with the kobolds recent(relatively so) rise to power I'm not sure they could all agree on a single military leader. The way I'm thinking is that all he reps from a particular race meet biweekly. Then on the alternating weeks the groups(I.e. military, trade, etc) meet. Then, on the last day of the month everyone meets in a large council.

armies with split leadership at the highest level have had a very bad track record, historically. It is far better to have everyone pushing in one direction than it two competing directions. indeed, it is better to have everyone pushing one, sub-optimal direction that two, indevidually better directions, because what tends to happen is the two groups start pushing agianst each other (competing for the same troops, food, ect), and neither push is properly supported, causing both to fail.


The early, republican roman armies, had split leadership with two consuls commanding on alternate days, this tended to end badly when the two disagreed on strategy. The roman armies worked far better when only one consul, and thus one strategic direction, was present. this is without the two commanders actively scheming agianst each other. This is what led to the republican romans, people dedicated to ensuring that no one person held power unchecked (and that at every level, thier was someone else of equal rank to oppose you), to creating the post of Dictator, for use in emergencys to ensure unitiy of command.

time and again, loose alliences with factured chains of command have been beaten by enemys who were all singing off the same song sheet.


short answer, a city without someone coordinating all military actions would likey fragment due to political infighting. I suggest having the Captain of the City Watch (or simmilar city wide force) act as overall commander, making sure that the quarter militas defensive plans match up so that some areas are not left undefended, etc.

this doesn't mean that the militia commanders always repect or listen to their notional leader, just that they all, offically, answer to him and he can make the four of them work together long enough to stave off whatever the current crisis is.


my personal suggestion would be to add 4 more councillers to the council, thse being city wide reps for religion, trade, military and politics/"general", who chair the meetings of their areas of power and actively work to keep the quarters working together (so the miliitary leader created mutual defense aggrements, the cleric settles disputes between chruchs about who can preach where, etc). that way, PCs intrested in city unity over promoting one quarter agenda have people in the council to work for/ get help form.

[Omeganaut]

Seeing your response to how divided the city is, if you didn't want separate posts for those seats, you could divide them between quarters. Have each quarter have a leader in one area, so that no one quarter gets excess power. Also, the general representative could be in charge of legislation to balance the power better, with each other rep having authority over their specific area.

Still, you will need unified authority, as a fractured command WILL NOT stay together past a few years, and if there has been time for the Kobolds to oust the native in one of the quarters, there has been time for the leadership to scheme against each other in some manner that would either lead to the destruction of the city, or one gaining power.

[motoko's ghost]

Yeah some of the other gods have more directly influenced the mortal world. For example, Pelor actually runs a small country through his avatar.

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase dues ex machina doesnt it :smalltongue:, mind you he's doing better there than he is in the campaign I'm working on.

[The Bandicoot]

Seeing your response to how divided the city is, if you didn't want separate posts for those seats, you could divide them between quarters. Have each quarter have a leader in one area, so that no one quarter gets excess power. Also, the general representative could be in charge of legislation to balance the power better, with each other rep having authority over their specific area.

Still, you will need unified authority, as a fractured command WILL NOT stay together past a few years, and if there has been time for the Kobolds to oust the native in one of the quarters, there has been time for the leadership to scheme against each other in some manner that would either lead to the destruction of the city, or one gaining power.

The kobolds rise to power wasn't all that planned or difficult. They basically went to thr other races and said 'we are doing this' and within a couple days in was done. There were only a few hundred dwarves left that could fight, after years if infighting and dwarves leaving their numbers were down. It took about fifty blessed kobolds,a couple appearances by their goddess, and a rather squirrelly and strange halfling bard to push the dwarves out.

[motoko's ghost]

The kobolds rise to power wasn't all that planned or difficult. They basically went to the other races and said 'we are doing this' and within a couple days in was done. There were only a few hundred dwarves left that could fight, after years if infighting and dwarves leaving their numbers were down. It took about fifty blessed kobolds,a couple appearances by their goddess, and a rather squirrelly and strange halfling bard to push the dwarves out.
Hmm, sounds like them(they are determined little buggers aren't they:smalltongue:) also is the halfling a reference to something or just a plot hook?

[The Bandicoot]

Hmm, sounds like them(they are determined little buggers aren't they:smalltongue:) also is the halfling a reference to something or just a plot hook?

Both. It's a bit of a joke between my friends that I like playing short bards.So I added the halfling in. It's an odd occurrence when a similar looking bard pops up at important events a millennia apart. ;] and yeah, they are determined. Their main deity is a kobold turned half dragon turned intermediate goddess of draconic knowledge and she uplifted them pretty quick.

[motoko's ghost]

Both. It's a bit of a joke between my friends that I like playing short bards.So I added the halfling in. It's an odd occurrence when a similar looking bard pops up at important events a millennia apart. ;] and yeah, they are determined. Their main deity is a kobold turned half dragon turned intermediate goddess of draconic knowledge and she uplifted them pretty quick.

Oh man, I smell some sort of conspiracy, possibly featuring an "immortal bard" :smalltongue:
Please tell me they are all the same guy, immortal and only surfacing to the public eye every few centuries for inscrutable purposes.:smallbiggrin:

[The Bandicoot]

Oh man, I smell some sort of conspiracy, possibly featuring an "immortal bard" :smalltongue:
Please tell me they are all the same guy, immortal and only surfacing to the public eye every few centuries for inscrutable purposes.:smallbiggrin:

To the first bit, yes and no. Yes its the same person but it kinda isnt. (Time travel and multiple realities makes things confusing, no?) As for inscrutable purposes, not really.

[motoko's ghost]

To the first bit, yes and no. Yes its the same person but it kinda isnt. (Time travel and multiple realities makes things confusing, no?) As for inscrutable purposes, not really.

Time travel? Multiple realities? Possibly reincarnating?
He's some sort of time-travelling dimension hopping bard?:smallbiggrin:
Like the DnD version of doctor who!

who does things for fairly obvious reasons?:smallconfused:

[The Bandicoot]

Time travel? Multiple realities? Possibly reincarnating?
He's some sort of time-travelling dimension hopping bard?:smallbiggrin:
Like the DnD version of doctor who!

who does things for fairly obvious reasons?:smallconfused:

I confused inscrutable for unscrupulous.... Whoops!! And as for Dr.Who I wouldn't know, I've never seen the show.

[motoko's ghost]

I confused inscrutable for unscrupulous.... Whoops!! And as for Dr.Who I wouldn't know, I've never seen the show.

:eek:

Bu-Bu-But

:eek:

EDIT: had a funny idea where a paladin makes the same mistake and attacks various recluses.

[The Bandicoot]

:eek:

Bu-Bu-But

:eek:

EDIT: had a funny idea where a paladin makes the same mistake and attacks various recluses.

Mistake? What mistake?

[motoko's ghost]

Mistake? What mistake?

mistaking inscrutable for unscrupulous.:smalltongue:

[The Bandicoot]

mistaking inscrutable for unscrupulous.:smalltongue:

That would be HILARIOUS:smallcool:

[motoko's ghost]

That would be HILARIOUS:smallcool:

:miko:That man is wearing a hooded cloak! No doubt to hide his villainous face from the forces of law, SMITE EVIL vile cur!
proceeds to starting attacking him, others try to stop,get declared agents of evil, proceeds to beat the living daylight out of everyone in the tavern.:smalltongue:

[oblivion6]

Oh god, I just had this mental image or Thor going door to door and saying "worship me, or else" before Pelor walks up and slugs him one.


that would be a battle for the ages lol

[The Bandicoot]

that would be a battle for the ages lol

Except it wouldn't happen because Thor right now is only a demigod chieftain of a barbarian tribe.

[oblivion6]

Except it wouldn't happen because Thor right now is only a demigod chieftain of a barbarian tribe.

pelor would win anyways in my opinion. have you considered reading up on the city of phlan in the forgotten realms? what your describing sounds an awful lot like that

[The Bandicoot]

pelor would win anyways in my opinion. have you considered reading up on the city of phlan in the forgotten realms? what your describing sounds an awful lot like that

If Thor was at the same power level of Pelor he'd win methinks. Also, alas, I don't have any forgotten realms books at all

[motoko's ghost]

Is it wrong that I thought up an adventure arc where the players pick their favourite deities then proceed to have a gigantic godly kung-fu death match blood tournament?
(with some fiddling to even out power levels of course:smalltongue:)

[The Bandicoot]

This is the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny.

[motoko's ghost]

This is the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny.

ARGH...thats going to be stuck in my head all day!

also derailed thread is derailed.:smalltongue:

[The Bandicoot]

ARGH...thats going to be stuck in my head all day!

also derailed thread is derailed.:smalltongue:

Well, unless anyone else has a suggestion I think I'm going with humans run military, halflings run trade, elves run politics, kobolds run magic, and religion is done on a church to church/ god to god basis with the occasional multi-church meeting.

[Storm Bringer]

Well, unless anyone else has a suggestion I think I'm going with humans run military, halflings run trade, elves run politics, kobolds run magic, and religion is done on a church to church/ god to god basis with the occasional multi-church meeting.

see, I'd suggest having linking the races Areas of control more closly to thier quarters. So, for example, the elven Artisans quarter has most of the smithieys and workshops (but not all), so they control the production of war material, but are reliant on food borught in form the halfing farmer of the Plains quarter (assuming that the city is growing it's own food), and on raw materails form the now kobold Tunnel Quarter (iorn, wood, coal, etc.), and need the numbers of the Humans to bulk out the city watch that defends the outer walls, etc.

the idea is each quarter actually needs the others to function properly, which is why it is one city, not four. this is why the city has lasted so long as a single entity, becuase dispite the beliefs of the quarter citizens that they can get along fine without the other quarters, their leaders know they can't and must, however reluctantly, work together.

[The Bandicoot]

see, I'd suggest having linking the races Areas of control more closly to thier quarters. So, for example, the elven Artisans quarter has most of the smithieys and workshops (but not all), so they control the production of war material, but are reliant on food borught in form the halfing farmer of the Plains quarter (assuming that the city is growing it's own food), and on raw materails form the now kobold Tunnel Quarter (iorn, wood, coal, etc.), and need the numbers of the Humans to bulk out the city watch that defends the outer walls, etc.

the idea is each quarter actually needs the others to function properly, which is why it is one city, not four. this is why the city has lasted so long as a single entity, becuase dispite the beliefs of the quarter citizens that they can get along fine without the other quarters, their leaders know they can't and must, however reluctantly, work together.

Well yeah, that's kind of how it is. When I say one quarter runs something I just mean they have the most in that particular area. Most merchants are halflings, most warriors and military are humans, Ect Ect. Though kobolds mining doesn't sound too much right. I think I'll have to make a race of gargoyles or constructs of some sort to be the main workforce. (perhaps a future campaign/playable race)

[SpaceBadger]

Thanks for the suggestions Storm. The city Had a river going through it but now it stops at the inner wall rather than going through the tainted area.

I'm trying to picture this; how does a river "stop at the inner wall"? Where does the water go?

Maybe they re-routed it to flow around the inner city, forming a partial moat?

[The Bandicoot]

I'm trying to picture this; how does a river "stop at the inner wall"? Where does the water go?

Maybe they re-routed it to flow around the inner city, forming a partial moat?

It actually goes into a system of underwater canals and provides clean water for the city.