Mommy, is Santa Claus real? (Parenting and fairytale myths) [Archive]

Fiery Diamond

2011-12-22, 11:08 PM

LaZodiac

2011-12-22, 11:17 PM

I will note, I never actually was told Santa Claus isn't realy. It's just one of those things that happen.

(completley off topic, but how recent is that Zelda Fanfic. Its basically Skyword Sword)

CoffeeIncluded

2011-12-22, 11:22 PM

I don't celebrate Christmas, so I was never told anything about Santa Claus. In Hebrew School my classmates and I did mention Hanukkah Harry, but everyone knew that was a joke. I figured out the tooth fairy thing early on, though my parents denied it for at least a year.

Tragic_Comedian

2011-12-22, 11:27 PM

averagejoe

2011-12-22, 11:30 PM

Lies are often useful for instruction - essential, some might say, in any area that requires a deep and complete understanding. I wouldn't presume to tell parents how to raise their children, but the tooth fairy, at least, always seemed like a good way to get kids through something as potentially traumatic as losing part of one's face. Probably not always necessary, but a useful stopgap.

As for personages of folk tradition, such as Santa Claus, I tend to think the question on whether to ruin it for your children reveals a need for the asker to examine their own beliefs. There is more than one kind of truth, and certain ideas and traditions can be valuable to keep alive. Will I tell my children of the reality of Santa Claus? Probably. But I won't like to them.

tyckspoon

2011-12-22, 11:34 PM

Tell children the truth. There's no harm in it, but there's not really any good that comes out of it. There's no purpose. Just tell them that hey, Christmas is great, have some presents. Though you could tell them that Santa is real in the way that the Christmas spirit and love are real. That whenever someone gives out of the goodness of their heart, the reality of Santa Claus is established.

"All right," said Susan, "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need ... fantasies to make life bearable."
No. Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meet the rising ape.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers?"
Yes. As practice. You have to start out learning to believe the little lies.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
Yes. Justice. Duty. Mercy. That sort of thing.
"They're not the same at all!"
Really? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet you act, like there was some sort of rightness in the universe by which it may be judged:
"Yes. But people have got to believe that or what's the point?"
My point exactly.

Not much more I can add to this.

toasty

2011-12-22, 11:34 PM

I was never taught that Santa was real. In fact, I knew very little about Santa as a child: i grew up in South Asia and Christmas is not much of a holiday (though my family, being Christian, celebrated it). I honestly think that's the way to go and when I have children of my own I'll be sure to tell them that the crazy being based off of a Turkish Saint that supposedly lives in the North Pole is a fabrication of the Coca Cola company and that real people bring presents.

I like Santa Claus: he's a cool dude, but there is no reason to lie to my kids about something like that.

The tooth fairy... meh, I have an uncle who will admit the Tooth Fairy does not exist, the "Tooth Dude" however, does obviously exist, even if he forgets sometimes. :smalltongue: I like this approach. When he talked about the tooth dude I was wise enough to realize that something was not entirely right, but I enjoyed the mystery of it enough to enjoy the fantasy a little bit. My parents never really talked about the Tooth Fairy, they just told me to put my teeth under my pillow and to check it in the morning.

Esprit15

2011-12-22, 11:47 PM

Zevox

2011-12-22, 11:55 PM

*shrugs* I don't see any problem with it myself. It's all simple fun for kids.

Will I let my children believe in such things? Probably, for a few years at least. Then again, I'm a long way away from needing to make such a decision, so maybe I'll have changed my mind by then.

Zevox

Tragic_Comedian

2011-12-23, 12:01 AM

And what about poor kids?

Remmirath

2011-12-23, 12:07 AM

My parents never tried to tell me that any of those things were real. They talked about them, but it was obviously a joke. I admit, I'd always assumed that was the way it was typically handled, and if I were ever in a situation where I'd need to handle it that is the way in which I would do so.

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 12:11 AM

And what about poor kids?

Let their parents speak up. This is, of course, a personal decision, and I wouldn't speak for someone in a situation other than my own. I'm honestly not sure what you're suggesting, really.

Fiery Diamond

2011-12-23, 12:12 AM

I don't get the whole fear of raising your kids to believe in Santa and then later them finding out he doesn't exist. It was never a traumatic experience for me. Heck, we played along so well that my parents were wondering in middle school whether they should tell my sister and I that Santa wasn't real. It was a fun tradition that I fully plan on passing on.

That was how it played out for me too, actually. I stubbornly insisted I believed in Santa Claus for quite a while after I stopped believing.

But I do understand people's concerns. I have read of at least two accounts where children had trust issues with their parents because of it. The kind of child who would say "I believe [against all evidence] that this is true, because my mom and dad said so, and they would never lie to me" (and there are children like that) really could get a serious emotional blow when they discover for sure that it isn't true.

I think that if I ever get married and have kids, I'm probably going to let my future hypothetical wife decide how to handle it and I'll just go along with whatever she says.

Lies are often useful for instruction - essential, some might say, in any area that requires a deep and complete understanding. I wouldn't presume to tell parents how to raise their children, but the tooth fairy, at least, always seemed like a good way to get kids through something as potentially traumatic as losing part of one's face. Probably not always necessary, but a useful stopgap.

As for personages of folk tradition, such as Santa Claus, I tend to think the question on whether to ruin it for your children reveals a need for the asker to examine their own beliefs. hTere is more than one kind of truth, and certain ideas and traditions can be valuable to keep alive. Will I tell my children of the reality of Santa Claus? Probably. But I won't like to them.

I'm not sure that lies are "essential," but I won't deny that they can be useful. They can also be harmful, even those that are intended for instruction. Really though, I think it depends on the nature of the lie and how it is handled. Oversimplifications can be thought of as lies, for example, because they explicitly and intentionally omit relevant and, for a truly correct understanding of a subject, important information. When possible, though I tend to think that truth is preferable to a lie. A lie that I was taught in primary school was that you couldn't subtract a larger number from a smaller number. That's helpful for many kids, because the concept of negative numbers would only confuse them and make it more difficult for them to learn basic arithmetic. But insisting on the lie when the child continues to probe it can be bad - I learned about negative numbers from my older brother when I was in first grade, but my teacher still insisted that no larger number could be subtracted from a smaller number. This helped discredit teachers in general in my eyes, which is a bad thing.

I never understood what was traumatic about losing teeth, personally; so long as I knew I was going to grow a new one, I was good to go. I actually thought it was kind of cool.

Regarding the Hogfather quote: I have to say I have always despised this viewpoint. It acts like there are only two possibilities - physical, tangible matter/energy or make-believe. I personally find that to be a rather offensive stance to take. But the post you quoted, however, I can get behind - there is more than one kind of truth, after all, as the good guy I just quoted said.

The_Admiral

2011-12-23, 12:13 AM

My parents never bothered to hide the fact that they gave us the presents. Every year they chased us out of my room so that they could pick a present.

Tragic_Comedian

2011-12-23, 12:18 AM

Regarding the Hogfather quote: I have to say I have always despised this viewpoint. It acts like there are only two possibilities - physical, tangible matter/energy or make-believe. I personally find that to be a rather offensive stance to take. But the post you quoted, however, I can get behind - there is more than one kind of truth, after all, as the good guy I just quoted said.
I agree. Hogfather's a good book, though.

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 12:32 AM

When possible, though I tend to think that truth is preferable to a lie.

Sure. But that also brings the issue of what the truth is and how well anyone knows it. But perhaps that's too metaphysical for the purposes of this discussion. You seem to have grasped the core of what I was saying in any case, and I essentially agree with all you said on the matter. Lies are, like anything else, to be used with regard for how to use them.

I never understood what was traumatic about losing teeth, personally; so long as I knew I was going to grow a new one, I was good to go. I actually thought it was kind of cool.

I never understood what was so hard about swimming; I am still glad my parents made me wear a life preserver.

Regarding the Hogfather quote: I have to say I have always despised this viewpoint. It acts like there are only two possibilities - physical, tangible matter/energy or make-believe. I personally find that to be a rather offensive stance to take. But the post you quoted, however, I can get behind - there is more than one kind of truth, after all, as the good guy I just quoted said.

The quote is, perhaps, not precisely spot on, but what it reaches to say is rather difficult to grasp. However, belief is important, to everyone. We all believe in things, and we all have things we need to believe them. That this is more false when we express it as children is, in my opinion, rather silly. I've never met an adult without some close-kept and completely silly beliefs, myself included and first in line. A child's belief in Santa Claus is very much like many "adult" beliefs, with the main difference being that adults believe in them.

RabbitHoleLost

2011-12-23, 12:34 AM

I certainly hope we don't have any young Playgrounders who might still believe reading this thread =/

In my own mind, my childhood wouldn't have been the same if I hadn't had Santa. If I ever have kids (very, very unlikely), they will be brought up with Santa in mind, too.
For me, there was nothing better than knowing I behaved well. There is nothing like believing in magic.

Tragic_Comedian

2011-12-23, 12:42 AM

I still believe in magic, because magic is very real. But Santa Claus... I dunno.

Ulysses WkAmil

2011-12-23, 12:44 AM

Eventually, kids reach the age where reality kicks in (well, the early symptoms) and grasp that its more over impossible or unrealistic. Santa was just a tool to get kids excited for christmas, not to mention getting them to behave for their gifts.

turkishproverb

2011-12-23, 01:26 AM

NEVER. Be ashamed of a lie that helps your child.

Or any child.

The importance of childhood fantasy, of unreality, cannot be overestimated. Every breath in the human animal that brings innovation, that brings good, comes from childhood falsehood. EThe hand-held phone that so obviously comes as the child of the old science-fiction communicator, the rocket bursting to earth, new fascinating foods. The computer that allows me to communicate in text to anywhere in the world originated first in dozens of penny novels.

Santa, Father Christmas, is an expression of an ideal. He is justice, duty, and mercy in one man. He is the bright, shining light that mankind should strive to. A happy child, warm in bed, knowing tomorrow will bring new joys. Not every child gets this, making it a lie, but the idea, the essence, is good in spite of it. It should be true, it should exist, but it doesn't. Yet.

I am a bit of a writer, and sometimes bit of an artist, and always a bit of a storyteller. And yet, I am woefully inadequate to the task of properly explaining why this is of import. I am still mostly a dreamer, desperately trying to turn the images in my head, the fanciful lies, into a brand of reality. However, one man has worded it as well as any yet has, and I shall do my best to quote him.

TRICKERY WITH WORDS IS WHERE HUMANS LIVE.
....HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little-"
YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.
"They're not the same at all!"
YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET...AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLDE, AS IF THERE IS SOME... NESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.
"Yes but people have got to believe that, or what's the point-"
MY POINT EXACTLY.
...
YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

-DEATH and Susan, by way of Terry Pratchett.

Anything that is not objectively true is a lie, but some lies should, and this is an important lesson. An unreality can become reality, and better the whole world.

Yes, there is no justice. some starve and others are fattened, with no real reason. Yet, one hopes one day justice could exist. Because it should. And every child being able to go to bed with the knowledge tomorrow brings new delights should as well.

factotum

2011-12-23, 02:24 AM

Santa was just a tool to get kids excited for christmas

Not so, IMHO. Kids will get plenty excited about the prospect of receiving a whole pile of gifts, whether they're delivered by Santa, their parents, or a total stranger. Heck, they'll get excited over the prospect of visiting somewhere new, or seeing their grandparents!

Icewalker

2011-12-23, 03:24 AM

My parents would tell me that such things existed at first. At one point, I was in elementary school, and I had definitely come to understand that the tooth fairy didn't exist, but decided, for good measure, that I would prove it. So, next time I lost a tooth, I left it under my pillow without telling my parents, and them proceeded to confront them the next morning. It was fun. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not sure they ever really out and out explained that all these things aren't true? It just became obvious before long. Even now they will sometimes jokingly imply that Santa etc. exist, and they still label some presents at Christmas as "From: Santa".

llamamushroom

2011-12-23, 03:42 AM

Personally, I think elements of magic are important during childhood, because kids believe in it anyway. After all, no-one ever told my friend that a little gnome lived in the traffic lights whose job it was to change them, but believe it she did. Some kind of socially acceptable magic, like Santa or the Easter Bunny, allows them to think that the world is a fantastic place where anything can happen, and often does.

As they get older, they can come to understand that the world is still pretty fantastic, but in ways that a small child doesn't care about.

Also, it's also pretty darn fun. Having spent the better part of an hour with my brother making markings on the beach that look like sleigh and reindeer tracks for our miniature cousins, I can personally attest that that look of utter joy on a child's face is hilarious.

Coidzor

2011-12-23, 03:59 AM

I've often wondered whether Santa Claus the chrismas mythos or Saint Nicholas the quasi-religious figure is the better one to instill in children.

Currently I think my best idea would be to just transmit the christmas mythos of Santa Claus to them and then emphasize the crucial nature of belief by introducing the concept of belief-dependent reality. Not for any moral reason or active desire to antagonize the child, mind, but more because I'm curious what the result of that would be.

Santa Claus is too fun of a fictional character to leave them in the dark about though.

The Succubus

2011-12-23, 04:49 AM

I was raised slightly differently.

Every Christmas Eve, our family would gather around the altar, our voices singing praises to our Lord. After the service, my parents would encourage me to leave a fresh virgin sacrifice on the altar as a treat for Father Cthulhu when he came down the chimney.

Christmas Day meals were pretty strange as well but I developed a taste for calamari as a result. :smallconfused:

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 04:51 AM

After all, no-one ever told my friend that a little gnome lived in the traffic lights whose job it was to change them, but believe it she did.

Well yeah. Everyone knows about those guys. :smallconfused:

The Succubus

2011-12-23, 05:11 AM

Well yeah. Everyone knows about those guys. :smallconfused:

They've got a pretty bad union though. They always seem to be on strike when I pull up in my car. :smallannoyed:

SDF

2011-12-23, 05:32 AM

Plato wrote about the noble lie that helps the city. And, what better for our capitalist society than Santa? Makes sense.

Mx.Silver

2011-12-23, 06:06 AM

I've never seen the point, the "hogfather defence" be damned. Kids get excited for christmas regardless. If parents want use deception though it doesn't really matter, as it's very unlikely to have any real impact in the long run either way.

Sure. But that also brings the issue of what the truth is and how well anyone knows it. But perhaps that's too metaphysical for the purposes of this discussion.
It is. In fact bringing it up would constitute a red herring.

Mono Vertigo

2011-12-23, 06:09 AM

All I'll say is that my parents took the Santa thing a little too far, were surprised to see I still believed in him at an age I should have stopped (because I had physical proofs of his existence! Forged by my parents who had too much free time evidently!), and still find my gullibility "adorable" and "fun" and all. *grumbles* :smallannoyed:
Sorry to have to play the killjoy here, but beside my personal, negative opinions on Christmas traditions... don't forge evidences of Santa's and his reindeers' presence for your kids. It's one thing to tell them stories. It's a whole other mess to take advantage of what little scientific mind they may already have.

Mauve Shirt

2011-12-23, 06:13 AM

My parents told me about Santa, the toothfairy, the Easter bunny, but I wasn't incredibly disappointed when I found out they don't exist. I mean, the presents kept coming, so who cares where they come from? :smalltongue:
My parents liked to ground their lies in reality. We lived in Germany for a while.
"Emily, we're going to the asparagus festival!"
"NO! I don't wanna!"
"Yes, we're going to the asparagus festival, and you're going to be the asparagus queen!"
"NO!"
"They'll dress you up in an asparagus dress, and you'll sit on an asparagus throne!"
"NONONONONO*tempertantrum*"
"LOLOLOLOL"
They were and still are good parents. :smallbiggrin:

Castaras

2011-12-23, 06:30 AM

I got told about father christmas and the tooth fairy and all, but when I worked it out for myself my parents just shrugged and moved on. Wasn't that big a thing for me.

I worked out father christmas didn't exist when I was about 4. :smallsmile:

Umbranar

2011-12-23, 06:50 AM

If you like gaming (Starcraft 2 in particular) and do not dare to tell your kids about Santa (For everyone age 7+ only, just to be sure :smallbiggrin:) not being real, try looking for a Day9 episode of last year somewhere in december. He ruined christmas for a little girl because the girls dad was a fan and he watched the MLG with his daughter, which Shawn (day9) shoutcasts.

Youtube with search query: Day9 ruïns christmas is where you are looking for.

Scarlet Knight

2011-12-23, 09:14 AM

I believe this question was answered in 1897:

http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/neh-preservation-project/2010/dec/08/yes-virginia/

KenderWizard

2011-12-23, 09:21 AM

I certainly hope we don't have any young Playgrounders who might still believe reading this thread =/

I was worrying about that too!

I don't know, I think the traumatised-by-parental-lies cohort is in the minority. And I think that can be explained by parents misreading what their child wants and needs. For Musashi, fabricated evidence wasn't the right thing to do. For me, it totally was. My parents fabricated some subtle evidence right at the age when I was starting to question the whole thing but, crucially, I was devastated by the thought there might not be a Santa. Some bootprints later, and I was happily satisfied that he was real, and didn't question it again for a couple of years, by which time, I was much more relaxed about it. I think in the vast majority of cases, the excitement of Santa outweighs the disappointment of his non-existence. You know, in our house, it was never said out loud. So Santa still comes to our house, and I wouldn't have it any other way. It'll only change when I have kids. And even then, not if I can get away with it. :smallwink:

We never had the Easter Bunny, though. My mother makes the most fantastically elaborate egg hunts and no way was she letting some damn anthropomorphised rodent take all the credit.

Also, on the subject of the Hogfather, I think anything about belief has to take a slightly different reading in the Discworld, because, y'know, there actually is a Hogfather, who exists due to thaumatologically measurable units of belief. It's a couple more steps down the allegory road than we are.

Heliomance

2011-12-23, 10:50 AM

I believe this question was answered in 1897:

http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/neh-preservation-project/2010/dec/08/yes-virginia/
Wow, I've never read that before. That's beautiful.

I was worrying about that too!

I don't know, I think the traumatised-by-parental-lies cohort is in the minority. And I think that can be explained by parents misreading what their child wants and needs. For Musashi, fabricated evidence wasn't the right thing to do. For me, it totally was. My parents fabricated some subtle evidence right at the age when I was starting to question the whole thing but, crucially, I was devastated by the thought there might not be a Santa. Some bootprints later, and I was happily satisfied that he was real, and didn't question it again for a couple of years, by which time, I was much more relaxed about it. I think in the vast majority of cases, the excitement of Santa outweighs the disappointment of his non-existence. You know, in our house, it was never said out loud. So Santa still comes to our house, and I wouldn't have it any other way. It'll only change when I have kids. And even then, not if I can get away with it. :smallwink:

I'm 22, and I still get a stocking each year ^^
A few years back, my sisters started organising a stocking each for my parents as well. Again, I'm pretty sure it's never been outright said that Father Christmas (we're English :P) doesn't exist, it's just something that you work out. And as my parents are now foster carers, it's entirely possible that any given Christmas we might have kids that do still believe.

Knaight

2011-12-23, 12:06 PM

I'd tell them the truth. I'd call Santa fictional, and the rest of the fairytale myths and characters as well (as well as the stork myth). That doesn't somehow strip the value out of the stories, but merely gives context to better understand them.

The importance of childhood fantasy, of unreality, cannot be overestimated. Every breath in the human animal that brings innovation, that brings good, comes from childhood falsehood. EThe hand-held phone that so obviously comes as the child of the old science-fiction communicator, the rocket bursting to earth, new fascinating foods. The computer that allows me to communicate in text to anywhere in the world originated first in dozens of penny novels.
Fiction is not the same thing as childhood falsehood and childhood fantasy. Falsehood is trying to make someone believe something that you know isn't true, with fiction, everyone involved is aware that it isn't real. That doesn't make it less valuable - The people who made the cell phone and the computer were well aware that the stories from science fiction were fictional, and that didn't discourage them. Moreover, that they had the ability to make those things were due to scientific discoveries, and those are all about trying to find truth, and using experimentation instead of just trusting in stories. Are those methods and the knowledge gained from them, as well as the use of that knowledge somehow useless as a result? No.

Santa, Father Christmas, is an expression of an ideal. He is justice, duty, and mercy in one man. He is the bright, shining light that mankind should strive to. A happy child, warm in bed, knowing tomorrow will bring new joys. Not every child gets this, making it a lie, but the idea, the essence, is good in spite of it. It should be true, it should exist, but it doesn't. Yet.
The ideas of justice, duty, and mercy are not lies simply because they aren't universally applied. A lie would be to state that they are universally applied, knowing full well that they aren't. "All children get the gifts they deserve", for instance, implicit in the Santa story, is a lie for all but the few that actually believe that, in which case it is merely accidental misinformation.

Anything that is not objectively true is a lie, but some lies should, and this is an important lesson. An unreality can become reality, and better the whole world.
Really? You're going with "objective truth" and "lie" and ignoring everything else? What exactly is a simplified model of reality, used with an understanding of where it is useful? What exactly is a concept that doesn't exist?

As for the hogfather quote: It is predicated on things that are true being objects, and nothing else. Arrangements? Lies. The same logic used for the concepts shown can be applied to something like life - grind the whole universe up, sift through it, and look, there isn't a single atom of life. It applies to language - there isn't a single atom of "words" either, that doesn't make them fictional. For that matter, no particular pattern of vibration is a "word" either without the model built around it. The entire quote conflates "a material" and "not a material" with "truth" and "lie", then calls lies useful because things that are not materials are useful, then adds an assumption that you need the little lies for the big ones to work and that the big ones matter.

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 01:09 PM

I've never seen the point

It's up to each person to see for themselves. If you cannot, or will not, then no one else can force you to be shown.

It is. In fact bringing it up would constitute a red herring.

:smallconfused: I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting I was bringing up that point just to be pedantic or silly? Perhaps it's my fault for trying to express complex thoughts with only a few words, but the point was both serious and germane, just probably a bit far off track for this thread.

As for the hogfather quote: It is predicated on things that are true being objects, and nothing else. Arrangements? Lies. The same logic used for the concepts shown can be applied to something like life - grind the whole universe up, sift through it, and look, there isn't a single atom of life. It applies to language - there isn't a single atom of "words" either, that doesn't make them fictional. For that matter, no particular pattern of vibration is a "word" either without the model built around it. The entire quote conflates "a material" and "not a material" with "truth" and "lie", then calls lies useful because things that are not materials are useful, then adds an assumption that you need the little lies for the big ones to work and that the big ones matter.

You're too fixated on the logic of his statement, and also have completely missed the point. Look at what he's saying!

Traab

2011-12-23, 01:49 PM

Asta Kask

2011-12-23, 02:03 PM

I believe this question was answered in 1897:

http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/neh-preservation-project/2010/dec/08/yes-virginia/

Ad hominem, argument from ignorance, appeal to emotion and shifting of the burden of proof. The editor fails logic forever.

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 02:11 PM

Ad hominem, argument from ignorance, appeal to emotion and shifting of the burden of proof. The editor fails logic forever.

And, again, you use logic to avoid discussing what he's actually saying.

Asta Kask

2011-12-23, 02:23 PM

A much better explanation at why he is wrong than I can present. (http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/12/23/no-virginia-there-is-no-santa-claus/)

EmeraldRose

2011-12-23, 02:43 PM

Zen Monkey

2011-12-23, 02:51 PM

Zar Peter

2011-12-23, 02:53 PM

Well, parent of 3 here, too.

The eldest two, 12 and 9 years old figured out that the christchild does not exist but the youngest, 7 still believe. So his sister actually whispered to us that we should lay her presents under the tree so that the youngest won't notice.

The oldest figured out this year because he wanted to know. We asked him if he REALLY wants to know, he answered yes, so now he knows.

His sister figured out herself but didn't say anything in case she doesn't get presents when she confess. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and as a side note, my wife is just watching "Die Hard" with the oldest because that's the best christmas movie in her opinion. I think this will get family tradition once all are old enough to watch it.

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 02:56 PM

A much better explanation at why he is wrong than I can present. (http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/12/23/no-virginia-there-is-no-santa-claus/)

Okay, same thing I said before but applied to that article and the idea of Santa Claus. And really, if we want to play the Name That Logical Fallacy Game, ad homonym, appeal to emotion, and strawman, strawman, strawman. And others that I don't know the fancy names for. Clearly this guy fails logic forever, but leaving it at that would be too easy.

As much as I respect and applaud the values this guy is trying to transmit, I'm afraid that he completely misses the point of holidays, traditions, literature, and art. As one who very much lives by tenants like logic and science, this sort of thing irritates me like little else does, because it is nonscientific thinking that masquerades as rhetoric in support of logic and reason. The author goes on railing against these supposedly senseless actions taken by a populace, and never once does he ask himself why, or attempt to understand. This isn't reason, it's tribalism gussied up with some support from pseudo-rational arguments.

You want to tell your kids that Santa Claus is fake? I completely and absolutely respect that. And not just in that way where I don't tell others how to raise their kids, I'll concede that teaching your kids in such a way may actually be the correct thing to do, and admit to being too limited in my own vision to have a clear and absolute answer on the matter. But the sort of thinking, the sort of "reason" present in the linked article is terrible. To deny the importance of faith - the necessity of faith - in the human experience! Ha!

rpgZenMaster

2011-12-23, 02:57 PM

"Truth"?? What is this "truth" of which y'all speak?

The existence of God? The reality of evolution versus Creationism? Buddah? Allah? Ghosts? Life on other planets? Sasquatches?

Screw it. Let 'em have Santa Claus. It'll teach them to keep their minds open .. but not TOO much. (By the way.. Saint Nick was a real person.)

Asta Kask

2011-12-23, 03:14 PM

Personally, kids grow up too fast now. The innocent childhood period is rapidly shrinking for a number of reasons not worth getting into at the moment. My future children will have Santa, at least for a little while, offering some happiness, magic, and wonder that helps make childhood worth preserving. Likewise, if they want to draw purple flying horses and cities made of candy, I will not sit them down and rationally explain why such things are illogical.

Why not show them the wonders of science? We have pictures from the Hubble Telescope (http://hubblesite.org/gallery/) over here. We have the history of evolution, beginning from nothing and continuing today. We have the story of the mind and how it works. There's a lot of details we don't know - but that's the best thing of all. That means you can tell your child "No one knows. Maybe you will find out." Isn't that enough to give children 'happiness, magic and wonder'? And as a bonus, you don't have to lie to your kids.

As for them drawing purple flying horses and cities made of candy - no one wants to stop that. I just think it's a bad idea to tell them that if these things make the children feel good, that means they're true. Because that's not preparing them for an adult life. That's opening them up to swindlers and charlatans of all kinds. This site (http://whatstheharm.net/) will tell you what may happen when people don't use reason and evidence.

Edit: AverageJoe, I think we mean very different things by 'faith'. I mean something along the lines of "belief unwarranted by the evidence". I don't see how that is beneficial to human lives. But if you can convince me, more power to you!

Tirian

2011-12-23, 03:43 PM

I think that it is a critical part of the story for children who are old enough to understand that Santa doesn't exist need to be clear that Santa does exist. There is a spirit of charity and compassion that makes the holidays as pleasant a time as possible for everyone, and it's a shame that our skepticism has caused us to forget that we create the society we live in every moment of our lives.

There's a toy drive box in every store, and I think every sufficiently old and privileged child should be made to voluntarily put one of "their" presents in that box. (Yes, I see what I did there.) That is the message of the holidays: Santa Claus exists because we are Santa Claus.

Coidzor

2011-12-23, 04:03 PM

Why not show them the wonders of science?

Because jamming them into holidays that have nothing to do with science is weird. That's kind of something that's supposed to be part of their formal education anyway. :smallconfused:

So, kind of a redundant effort that's misplaced to do it on holidays. I mean, unless you're taking them out and stargazing on the winter solstice or something, but that's not really a formal culture-wide holiday anymore. But it is pretty fun, from what I can recall.

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 04:08 PM

AverageJoe, I think we mean very different things by 'faith'. I mean something along the lines of "belief unwarranted by the evidence". I don't see how that is beneficial to human lives. But if you can convince me, more power to you!

You say faith is belief unwarranted by evidence, yet you deny the evidence of faith! It is a behavior so ingrained in us that everyone has it. It has survived through periods of famine, times when any wasted thought or action meant death. I'm not saying that everyone has to take my point of view on the importance of faith, but for so-called scientists, preaching ideals like "reason," to simply put down such a thing as insignificant and unneeded, never exploring why it is or what purpose it might serve, simply believing that it does not serve. Faith in the uselessness of faith, I say again ha! That is neither science nor reason, that is blatant, naked tribalism, without substantial difference to any other tribalistic thoughts.

I possibly come down a bit hard on such things, but if I do it's only because I am a scientist, and one who continues to strive for ever more perfect mastery over logic and reason.

Which isn't to say there isn't another side to this. People use words like "faith" as reason or excuse for lazy thought, and that's something to strive against. But that is not to say faith is bad or needless. As I said, everyone has it.

I have faith in the idea that, for me at least, things will turn out okay whatever troubles I might face. I don't have any good reason to believe this, but I do. I don't even know by what mechanism or means things will turn out okay, I just think they will. There are many things I would have shrunk back from instead of facing, including perhaps life itself, without this little bit of faith. I cannot imagine life without it would be very worth living. There may even be a rational explaination for such a feeling - that perhaps because of repeated exposure to painful stimulus which was eventually relieved, I've become convinced in my subconscious that this will always be true. Which is a fascinating thought, but it also does not diminish the importance or impact that such faith has on my life.

Not everyone believes the same for themselves, and that's cool. But for every person there is something, I would bet anything. Without belief in tomorrow, why bother to live life? Without belief in the people around us, why bother to socialize? Without belief in ourselves, why bother to pursue anything? Faith is so ingrained in us that we often don't even realize when we have it. Hope is a sort of faith, in precisely the definition you gave, yet without hope I cannot imagine life.

I would even argue that science requires one to have faith as much as anything else. The ideal scientist knows nothing, for all he can say is, "I am sure to such and such a degree that so and so will happen." A scientist can only predict the future, he cannot know it. Therefore a scientist believes that the sun will rise in the morning where other people might know it. A scientist also has very good reasons to believe that the sun will rise the next morning, to the point where the uncertainty is so infinitesimal as to be basically meaningless. Yet for all the evidence, one still does not know, and the fate of the sun is far from the most uncertain thing a scientist has to deal with.

Tebryn

2011-12-23, 04:13 PM

I find telling lies in any form to be harmful and fairy tales need to be just that. Fairy tales. If the statement isn't true than you shouldn't be shoving it down kids throats. What benefit is there to telling lies to children? What is the harm of saying to a child.

"This time of year we get presents because we love each other and that's what the holiday is about. Love and togetherness and the joy of celebrating with everyone."

Can anyone tell me how that would somehow not be acceptable? It doesn't somehow steal a child's ability of imagination or deny them a sense of wonder. If you ask me, telling kids we do nice things because it's the nice thing to do is -much- better than telling them Santa brings them crap.

You say faith is belief unwarranted by evidence, yet you deny the evidence of faith! It is a behavior so ingrained in us that everyone has it.

I only want to pick this out but...no. Not everyone has faith. I don't have faith at all and I never will.

Misery Esquire

2011-12-23, 04:23 PM

I only want to pick this out but...no. Not everyone has faith. I don't have faith at all and I never will.

Do you think the person nearest you is about to kill you? That they aren't plotting to kill you? Always? Do you think that gravity is what keeps you on the ground? Do you think there's an unlimited universe out there? A limited universe? Do you think that your bank is keeping your money safe, not plotting to run off with it at the first moment you look away?

That's all faith. You believe things that may or may not nessecarily be true, and there's few ways to prove they are going to be true. And the ways there are, reliable as they seem, aren't enough to insure it.

Your bank, for example, could take your money and run to Austrailia immediately, and the only thing you can base your belief on that they won't is that they're still a functioning bank for many other people, and assumably can't do that to everyone without being shut down. That's a belief, and beliefs belie faith.

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 04:24 PM

I only want to pick this out but...no. Not everyone has faith. I don't have faith at all and I never will.

I apologize for the presumption, but I don't believe you. People often lie to themselves, and ideals are the biggest lie of all. A true lack of faith in a stable, healthy individual is something I would have to see to believe.

Mx.Silver

2011-12-23, 04:25 PM

It's up to each person to see for themselves.
Err... yes. I thought that was rather the gist of what I was saying. Specifically, I don't think it's a worthwhile parenting habit but I don't have anything against other people adopting it if they wish to.

:smallconfused: I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting I was bringing up that point just to be pedantic or silly?
I'm saying that to pursue that line of questioning adds nothing to the actual topic at hand. Indeed it would only serve to distract from it. I'm not saying the nature of truth isn't an interesting area of philosophical discussion, just that it's not something that belongs in this kind of topic. I appreciate this may be a bit late seeing as how this thread's pretty much collapsed into arguments about the definition of "faith".

"Truth"?? What is this "truth" of which y'all speak?

The existence of God? The reality of evolution versus Creationism? Buddah? Allah?

Are we trying to get this thread locked now?

Starbuck_II

2011-12-23, 04:26 PM

I'm 22, and I still get a stocking each year.
As does my family (I'm 28).

I still believe in Santa, Tooth Fairy, etc.
Sadly, except Santa, they have an age limit.

As for them drawing purple flying horses and cities made of candy - no one wants to stop that. I just think it's a bad idea to tell them that if these things make the children feel good, that means they're true. Because that's not preparing them for an adult life. That's opening them up to swindlers and charlatans of all kinds. This site (http://whatstheharm.net/) will tell you what may happen when people don't use reason and evidence.

But if they don't believe in the impossible, we would never have light bulbs, electricity, etc.
If a person can't dream, then they can't invent. No inventions means no science. No science is bad.
Anyone who tells you otherwise, you should be suspicious of them. THey probably trying to get to follow their mantra/beliefs.

I mean, that links says: "The most real things in the world are those that children and adults can see, or hear, or otherwise detect. " And yet, that isn't true. We can now detect many things we couldn't before like atoms, black holes, radio waves, but that came after decades after decades of not being able to.
And please, "Fancy and poetry and love and romance connect us with reality" that is hogwash. She barely shows how they count but belief doesn't. You should be suspicious.
Plus, Saint Nick did exist so the link lied... :smalltongue:
And Santa only goes down chimneys in the old days.

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 04:28 PM

I'm saying that to pursue that line of questioning adds nothing to the actual topic at hand. Indeed it would only serve to distract from it. I'm not saying the nature of truth isn't an interesting area of philosophical discussion, just that it's not something that belongs in this kind of topic.

Yes, that's why I didn't. I feel like we're wasting a lot of words saying almost the same thing. Though talking about the nature of truth has become so cliche that everyone has their own ideas about what I mean when I talk about it, and it is subsequently difficult to be understood. So my statement probably didn't mean what you thought it did. But, as I said, spending few words on complex ideas is often an invitation to be misunderstood.

No inventions means no science.

Your meaning is well taken, but this is not quite true. Apologies for the pedantry.

DiscipleofBob

2011-12-23, 04:34 PM

One year when I was younger and still believed...

We were getting ready for midnight mass on Christmas Eve (SO do not miss that part of Christmas). Of course we had two bathrooms and five people getting ready, so it was hectic as usual. I went to my parents' bathroom to finish getting ready, and lo and behold on the side of my parents' bed were all the Christmas presents, poorly hidden (probably because they'd gotten them out early to place them under the tree).

Bless my gullible little heart on the way to mass I excitedly informed my parents that Santa had come early (after all, he has all those rounds to make). For reasons I didn't understand at the time, my parents got really upset with me. I was accused of snooping around for Christmas presents when I'd happened upon them by accident. I think they also wanted me to shut up so my older siblings (who definitely weren't falling for the Santa bit anymore) wouldn't get the hint too. I sat confused at what I'd done wrong through all of mass, but all was forgotten and forgiven by the next morning, when I got an N64 and Ocarina of Time.

I personally don't plan on telling my future kids that Santa gives them gifts. He can be as real as unicorns or Tony the Tiger or whatever cartoon they're watching at the time. But those gifts come from their parents, so they can stop thanking the mythological figure and start giving credit where it's due. Either way, I don't really disapprove of others doing the same thing, and I certainly don't plan on spoiling it for my niece who's just learning about Santa Claus.

One thing that kind of irks me though is that my parents still insist on marking presents "From Santa" and I never know whether it's from my mom, my dad, both, my sister, what and I don't know who to thank. Of course they also label presents from pets and children too young to have actually gotten presents for anyone.

Tebryn

2011-12-23, 04:35 PM

I apologize for the presumption, but I don't believe you. People often lie to themselves, and ideals are the biggest lie of all. A true lack of faith in a stable, healthy individual is something I would have to see to believe.

I'm sorry you feel that way but I don't think I have a reason to lie about it. Though I think it's a bit condescending to merely presume that since someone doesn't agree with your assessment they have to be "lying" to themselves.

belief that is not based on proof

That is what faith is. I don't do that. It's why I don't trust in the String theory or Quantum Mechanics. I think they're neat ideas but until they're proven to be more than a mere theory than ya. I don't trust in it. Faith tells you nothing, truth does. I want as many true beliefs as possible and actually whether what I believe is true or not. I don't find faith to be a virtue, quite the opposite in fact. I find faith to be harmful more often than not because merely having faith in something doesn't tell you anything. It doesn't inform you. It says "Take this on face value and do not look deeper"...I can't abide by that. If there's one thing that keeps me up at night in fear is that people merely take things on faith.

It's for that reason that I find enforcing stories of bearded fat old men who climb into your chimny at the dead of night to give you presents to be folly when you can just tell children that we give presents because giving and being nice is what the holiday is about. You didn't of course answer the question of what the harm of actually telling the children -the truth- is.

Starbuck_II

2011-12-23, 04:43 PM

. I find faith to be harmful more often than not because merely having faith in something doesn't tell you anything. It doesn't inform you. It says "Take this on face value and do not look deeper"...I can't abide by that. If there's one thing that keeps me up at night in fear is that people merely take things on faith.

No, Faith doesn't say take as face value. It says withhold judgement and belief it might be possible. Look deeper if there is a meaning behind it.
That is why Parents tell kids "Santa is real" when that Santa might not be, because they have meaning behind the deed.
Faith is how USA/any govt's money has value, we trust that. If we look deeper believing it has value is important because it makes the monetary system work.
If no one believed in their money, it would be worth nothing and every govt relying on money (instead bartering systems) would fall.

Asta Kask

2011-12-23, 04:53 PM

You say faith is belief unwarranted by evidence, yet you deny the evidence of faith! It is a behavior so ingrained in us that everyone has it. It has survived through periods of famine, times when any wasted thought or action meant death. I'm not saying that everyone has to take my point of view on the importance of faith, but for so-called scientists, preaching ideals like "reason," to simply put down such a thing as insignificant and unneeded, never exploring why it is or what purpose it might serve, simply believing that it does not serve. Faith in the uselessness of faith, I say again ha! That is neither science nor reason, that is blatant, naked tribalism, without substantial difference to any other tribalistic thoughts.

Burning witches survived through the wars, famines and times when any wasted thought or action meant death. It is universal, except in post-Enlightenment societies. The ability of a thought pattern to survive is not an indication of it being useful or necessary.

I have faith in the idea that, for me at least, things will turn out okay whatever troubles I might face. I don't have any good reason to believe this, but I do.

Things have not turned out okay so far? Because if they have, on the balance, turned out ok then that is a reason to believe that things will continue in that way.

I don't even know by what mechanism or means things will turn out okay, I just think they will. There are many things I would have shrunk back from instead of facing, including perhaps life itself, without this little bit of faith.

How do you know this? You say you've never been without it?

Not everyone believes the same for themselves, and that's cool. But for every person there is something, I would bet anything. Without belief in tomorrow, why bother to live life? Without belief in the people around us, why bother to socialize? Without belief in ourselves, why bother to pursue anything?

But you're talking about beliefs here. Are these beliefs unfounded? Do we have reason for tomorrow being pretty much the same as today? Yes. Do we have reason to believe that people are, on the whole, honest and trustworthy? Yes. Do we have reason to believe ourselves reasonably competent? Yes.

The kind of thinking the Virginia letter encourages is, I would argue, this: "Physicists say there can never be perpetual motion, but even the best of them have small minds compared to the universe. They don't understand faith in people. This guy seems nice, and I'll make a lot of money if I invest in it. And I have faith that that is correct. So I'll invest the kids' college fund."

Why inflict that thinking on your offspring even if it lasts while they're kids? Why lie to them?

I would even argue that science requires one to have faith as much as anything else. The ideal scientist knows nothing, for all he can say is, "I am sure to such and such a degree that so and so will happen." A scientist can only predict the future, he cannot know it. Therefore a scientist believes that the sun will rise in the morning where other people might know it. A scientist also has very good reasons to believe that the sun will rise the next morning, to the point where the uncertainty is so infinitesimal as to be basically meaningless. Yet for all the evidence, one still does not know, and the fate of the sun is far from the most uncertain thing a scientist has to deal with.

But the correct way is surely to say "I don't know, and I'm okay with it. It is sufficient for me to work with overwhelming probabilities. Practically certain is a good term." You've said nothing to convince me that I need faith.

Starbuck_II

2011-12-23, 04:56 PM

The kind of thinking the Virginia letter encourages is, I would argue, this: "Physicists say there can never be perpetual motion, but even the best of them have small minds compared to the universe. They don't understand faith in people. This guy seems nice, and I'll make a lot of money if I invest in it. And I have faith that that is correct. So I'll invest the kids' college fund."

Wait, what parents care more about physics than their own kids future? :smallconfused:
It isn't that they gullible, but that they care less about their own family than science/money apparently.

TheCountAlucard

2011-12-23, 05:11 PM

Burning witches survived through the wars, famines and times when any wasted thought or action meant death.Actually, no, it didn't. It got outlawed as early as A.D. 794 in some places, and even in Europe, witches were mostly hanged. Much more economical, see.

averagejoe

2011-12-23, 05:18 PM

I'm sorry you feel that way but I don't think I have a reason to lie about it. Though I think it's a bit condescending to merely presume that since someone doesn't agree with your assessment they have to be "lying" to themselves.

Yes. If I had done that it would have been condescending. And what I did say was perhaps condescending as well. I apologize if I have offended, but one who claims to champion the truth should not be so prickly toward one who is simply trying to say what he sees.

That is what faith is. I don't do that. It's why I don't trust in the String theory or Quantum Mechanics. I think they're neat ideas but until they're proven to be more than a mere theory than ya. I don't trust in it. Faith tells you nothing, truth does. I want as many true beliefs as possible and actually whether what I believe is true or not. I don't find faith to be a virtue, quite the opposite in fact. I find faith to be harmful more often than not because merely having faith in something doesn't tell you anything. It doesn't inform you. It says "Take this on face value and do not look deeper"...I can't abide by that. If there's one thing that keeps me up at night in fear is that people merely take things on faith.

It's for that reason that I find enforcing stories of bearded fat old men who climb into your chimny at the dead of night to give you presents to be folly when you can just tell children that we give presents because giving and being nice is what the holiday is about. You didn't of course answer the question of what the harm of actually telling the children -the truth- is.

People having faith keeps you up at night. Again, pardon the presumption, but that sounds like faith to me.

Somewhat tangential - quantum mechanics is better tested and confirmed than any other branch of science. Perhaps you don't believe in the scientific canon, which is fine, but it seems odd to single out quantum, or to lump it in with string theory.

Burning witches survived through the wars, famines and times when any wasted thought or action meant death. It is universal, except in post-Enlightenment societies. The ability of a thought pattern to survive is not an indication of it being useful or necessary.

And again, so unscientific. It is easy to condemn such people, but it is valuable to understand them.

And yes of course people burning witches is a terrible thing. No one should do it.

Things have not turned out okay so far? Because if they have, on the balance, turned out ok then that is a reason to believe that things will continue in that way.

Illogical. And anyways, I said I suspected that such a thing might be the source of such belief. So what?

How do you know this? You say you've never been without it?

I don't believe I did say that.

But you're talking about beliefs here. Are these beliefs unfounded? Do we have reason for tomorrow being pretty much the same as today? Yes. Do we have reason to believe that people are, on the whole, honest and trustworthy? Yes. Do we have reason to believe ourselves reasonably competent? Yes.

There are reasons, certainly, but I can find reasons for anything. If you only put your trust in people you have good reason to trust, then how did you put your trust in the first person that you trusted?

The kind of thinking the Virginia letter encourages is, I would argue, this: "Physicists say there can never be perpetual motion, but even the best of them have small minds compared to the universe. They don't understand faith in people. This guy seems nice, and I'll make a lot of money if I invest in it. And I have faith that that is correct. So I'll invest the kids' college fund."

Why inflict that thinking on your offspring even if it lasts while they're kids? Why lie to them?

And I would argue that you continue to miss the meaning of that article if that's what you think, and your counterpoint was an article about how it's awesome to look down on people who believe differently than you. In any case, you've been so hung up on words. Look at the meaning instead!

You've said nothing to convince me that I need faith.

And you've said many things that make me believe you have it. Heck, I've heard not one clear reason from anyone why faith is a terrible thing, other than, "Because I think so." That is as much faith as anything.

Whiffet

2011-12-23, 05:35 PM

My parents never told me Santa was real. They were honest about it right from the beginning. Of course, the reason behind this was because they believed Christmas was EVIL because it's PAGAN and that makes it REALLY BAD. I also missed out on Halloween, spending each October 31st hiding because the EVILLL trick-or-treaters were going to come and demand we give them candy. Going along with it and giving them candy would be EVILLL, you see. :smallannoyed:

I really don't care what people tell their kids about Santa. Just don't try to convince them otherwise when they know the truth. And don't try to insist Santa is real if there's no one around who still believes in him. When I was somewhere around six years old, my parents forced me to take piano lessons and the lady who taught me kept trying to tell me Santa really existed. I told her repeatedly that I knew Santa wasn't real, but she still spent entire lessons trying to tell me he was. The experience annoyed me so much that my six-year-old mind ended up learning "telling people Santa is real is bad." I went on to ruin Santa for a few children that year. I still feel bad about that.

Tebryn

2011-12-23, 05:51 PM

*Snip*

*Snip*

This is quite off topic. I'd be happy to debate this elsewhere, especially so if off board because there's plenty I could say elsewhere I cannot say here.

Mono Vertigo

2011-12-23, 06:01 PM

My parents never told me Santa was real. They were honest about it right from the beginning. Of course, the reason behind this was because they believed Christmas was EVIL because it's PAGAN and that makes it REALLY BAD. I also missed out on Halloween, spending each October 31st hiding because the EVILLL trick-or-treaters were going to come and demand we give them candy. Going along with it and giving them candy would be EVILLL, you see. :smallannoyed:
Now, that's just evil. (Your parents' behaviour, not Christmas or Halloween.)
There's a balance between overdoing the trickery and rejecting harmless traditions so violently. I don't know. Telling tales, letting the kids figure out by themselves Santa and such don't really exist or make much sense, explaining the story behind that belief... you know, things that are a little entertaining for everybody and eventually teach facts and values.

LaZodiac

2011-12-23, 06:38 PM

Meh, the way I look at it is, if you DONT teach your kids to believe santa is real, then they will tell their fellow students at school, who will tell their parents, who will cause all sorts of freaking drama that "some bastard kid is ruining christmas for my baby!" Honestly, I took proving santa wasnt real as a personal goal as a kid. I finally proved it when the dart board I got from santa, had the empty box in the basement. "Hey ma! SEE?! There is no santa!"

What horrible monster would OPEN UP YOUR GIFT Traab? You're not supposed to get a dart board! You get a dart board in a cardboard box that you tear into like a wild lion tearing into a succulent gazzelle! Bad form on your parents part, bad form!

Traab

2011-12-23, 07:29 PM

Do you think the person nearest you is about to kill you? That they aren't plotting to kill you? Always? Do you think that gravity is what keeps you on the ground? Do you think there's an unlimited universe out there? A limited universe? Do you think that your bank is keeping your money safe, not plotting to run off with it at the first moment you look away?

That's all faith. You believe things that may or may not nessecarily be true, and there's few ways to prove they are going to be true. And the ways there are, reliable as they seem, aren't enough to insure it.

Your bank, for example, could take your money and run to Austrailia immediately, and the only thing you can base your belief on that they won't is that they're still a functioning bank for many other people, and assumably can't do that to everyone without being shut down. That's a belief, and beliefs belie faith.

Most of that has little to nothing to do with faith, and more to do with not thinking about it at all. I dont have faith that the person standing next to me wont randomly shiv me in the kidney, I just dont consider it a likely possibility unless the guy next to me is twitching while holding a sharpened toothbrush handle. Same for most of the rest.

What horrible monster would OPEN UP YOUR GIFT Traab? You're not supposed to get a dart board! You get a dart board in a cardboard box that you tear into like a wild lion tearing into a succulent gazzelle! Bad form on your parents part, bad form!

What kind of santa doesnt MAKE your toys, he instead picks up name brand gear from walmart? Taking the toys out of their packaging reinforces the illusion that the elves assembled it themselves. Oh sure I can get a playstation from the STORE, but the one I get from santa is way better! Elf products are built ford tough you know!

Coidzor

2011-12-23, 07:30 PM

Most of that has little to nothing to do with faith, and more to do with not thinking about it at all. I dont have faith that the person standing next to me wont randomly shiv me in the kidney, I just dont consider it a likely possibility unless the guy next to me is twitching while holding a sharpened toothbrush handle. Same for most of the rest.

Semantics. You don't think about it because you take it as a given that people are not going to violate the rules of society for little to no personal game.

LaZodiac

2011-12-23, 07:32 PM

What kind of santa doesnt MAKE your toys, he instead picks up name brand gear from walmart? Taking the toys out of their packaging reinforces the illusion that the elves assembled it themselves. Oh sure I can get a playstation from the STORE, but the one I get from santa is way better! Elf products are built ford tough you know!

I admit, I never thought of that. Good point!

Toastkart

2011-12-23, 07:35 PM

I'm a little late to this thread, but here goes.

I was probably only 4-5 when I watched a department store santa keel over and die (from heart attack probably, but I don't think I ever found out for sure). Me, my two older brothers, and probably a couple dozen other kids all saw it. It didn't really bother me, but it sure killed any belief in santa. It was certainly my first close, personal experience with death, and while I realize my memory from that long ago is fuzzy, I don't recall my parents ever sitting me down and talking about it afterward, which is probably just as well.

At any rate, you would think that would sour me on the idea of telling children fairy tales as if they were the truth. Not so. Life without fiction would be stale and mind-numbingly boring. Human beings need meaning-making to maintain mental and physical well-being. Lived fiction is an important part of that. As is the conflict of resolving that fiction. Conflict and growth go hand in hand.

That being said, I think context is important. Fairy tales, folk tales, family traditions, and all of that are all well and good, but parents need to let their children explore their own identity, spirituality, and meaning-making processes more freely. Sheltering children does little but stunt their growth. Even where death is concerned, especially where death is concerned, children need to be given honest answers.

As an example, a few years ago a friend of mine invited me over during the halloween season. Her daughter, who was about 7 at the time, made a comment about "praying to the pumpkin", and you can guess how well that went over. I will give my friend credit for prefacing her lecture with 'when you get older you can believe what you want, but...'

There was nothing harmful about that comment, or even exploring that belief for a few days/weeks, as I'm sure that's all the longer it would have lasted. Adults believe all sorts of strange things for all sorts of strange reasons, and children pick up on that.

We're social creatures, and our daily lives are filled with hundreds, if not thousands, of interactions on dozens of different levels. These interactions go both ways most of the time, but when it comes to the important things, the interaction between parent and child only goes one way.

Traab

2011-12-23, 07:39 PM

Semantics. You don't think about it because you take it as a given that people are not going to violate the rules of society for little to no personal game.

My mind is vast. It is NOT however, vast enough to consider, and reject, every possible option of behavior for every person I meet, unless specific parameters are met. I dont have faith that this person wont attack me, I just dont think about the myriad ways he could do it if he felt the urge because thats a lot of possible ways he could kill me! Thinking about them with no reason would do nothing to help me out and would just waste resources better spent on thinking of new ideas for fanfiction challenges. On the other hand, if I see a guy with a face full of white powder, a gun in his shaky hands, and everyone else running away screaming, I start considering the different ways I might be about to die in. Faith isnt really a part of it. At best its assumptions. I assume the person will or will not kill me.

In logic an assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts.

Thats me. Im taking it for granted that billions of potentially horrible things wont happen, because it would be stupid to worry about them all, and futile as well. I would never do anything at all if I had to try and consider all the possible things that could happen.

Dark Elf Bard

2011-12-23, 07:44 PM

This thread is all true, but seems a little depressing to me.

LaZodiac

2011-12-23, 07:48 PM

*One of the most horrible things I've ever heard*

:smalleek: holy crap! That's not something anyone should ever have to go through, ever.

It..honestly kinda reminds me of the movie Gremlins. Anyone remember that scene?

Starwulf

2011-12-23, 07:51 PM

So, what do you all think, playgrounders?

I see no harm in perpuatating a myth/myths that have been around since my grandparents grandparents were kids. It makes childhood seem more fun and the world a more magical place, which we as adults lose all too quickly. Sometimes I personally wish I could go back to a time when I thought those things were real, and that magic existed, life was so much more simple back then. My 8 year old has recently discovered that Santa doesn't exist, and I've been trying to convince her that he does, just so she can hold onto that childhood enthusiasm for a bit longer, because I know it's a short jump into adolescence from here, and that's when all the pressures of the real world first make their appearance.

Tragic_Comedian

2011-12-23, 07:53 PM

:smalleek: holy crap! That's not something anyone should ever have to go through, ever.

It..honestly kinda reminds me of the movie Gremlins. Anyone remember that scene?
Yeah. It also reminds me of an episode of Full House where they took Michelle to see Santa Claus, and the minute she sat down on his lap, he said "Ho ho ho!" and collapsed, then Mrs. Claus started to give him CPR. And the elf called her a demon child. Except Full House was a comedy.

Toastkart

2011-12-23, 08:05 PM

:smalleek: holy crap! That's not something anyone should ever have to go through, ever.

Should I have mentioned that I was not horribly scarred for life? It wasn't scary, it wasn't traumatizing, it wasn't even really creepy. It just was.

I can even look at this in a constructive way. The event, and the lack of me being told what it should mean, gave me incentive to figure it out for myself, to explore the meaning of life and death from a young age with little input from well-meaning, but still overbearing adults. That's been a beneficial consequence to me even to this day.

LaZodiac

2011-12-23, 08:18 PM

Should I have mentioned that I was not horribly scarred for life? It wasn't scary, it wasn't traumatizing, it wasn't even really creepy. It just was.

I can even look at this in a constructive way. The event, and the lack of me being told what it should mean, gave me incentive to figure it out for myself, to explore the meaning of life and death from a young age with little input from well-meaning, but still overbearing adults. That's been a beneficial consequence to me even to this day.

Well it's good you learned from it, atleast. Always look on the bright side of life :smallbiggrin:

KnightDisciple

2011-12-23, 08:39 PM

Hm. Still single, but I have given this some thought, with the hope that one day I can put it into practice. :smallwink:

1.)I will never give my children the impression that Santa Claus is giving them gifts. They will know they are from me and my wife, or their family, friends, whoever. Anyone who wants to give my kids a gift will be gently asked to respect this.
This is not because I want to crush the idea of Santa. Instead, I want them to learn thankfulness and generosity. I want them to turn their smiling face to whoever gave them that wonderful gift and say "thank you so much!".
2.)I will tell them that Saint Nicholas of Myra was real, and that he gave gifts generously to people who had need.
3.)I'll tell them of the First Christmas.
4.)I'll tell them that while Santa Claus does not actually go from house to house giving gifts, he is a valuable symbol of generosity, of love, of holiday spirit. How he helps brighten up the cold winter season, and that it's okay to take pictures with mall Santas and smile at his laugh and beard. Because we know about the man he was based on, and the whole reason that man was so generous.
5.)I'll probably ask that they not lie to their friends and say "I totally believe in Santa delivering gifts", but also ask they not just go about saying "Santa's not real!". There's a balance to be had, after all.

Basically, I'll always tell my kids the truth, but do so gently, and remind them that the core truths of Santa are, well, true. Just not the sleigh and reindeer part. :smallwink:

THAC0

2011-12-23, 09:19 PM

Totally will do Santa for my theoretical kids. With a few caveats (assuming my husband's approval, etc).

When writing letters to "Santa," they may only ask for three things.
"Santa" will only give one present. Any others are from Mom/Dad/Grandma/Whomever.

Heck, even now, with no kids, just a cat, we leave out "milk and treats" for "kittyclaus" (Thanks to the book, "Night Before Catsmas").

Christmas is one of my favorite times of year and I really value the traditions my family had, especially since family traditions are rapidly disappearing. Yes, you can have similar traditions without Santa, but for me that was just such a big part of my childhood (even though I figured it out relatively early) that I want my children to have that same experience.

pffh

2011-12-23, 09:26 PM

What are you all talking about of course the santas are real. There are 13 of them and they are the sons of a couple of trolls. They also have over a hundred brother and sisters and their parents have a pet cat that eats people that don't recieve new clothes for christmas.

And no matter where I'll be living or which nationality my spouse will be my theoratical future kids will be raised believing in those santas since they are awesome pranksters and each brings the kids one small gift each day for the 13 days leading up to Christmas.

LaZodiac

2011-12-23, 09:33 PM

pffh

2011-12-23, 09:37 PM

So it's Hanakuh mixed with Christmas. Hanamas? Christkuh?

No just christmas or if you want to get technical Yuletide or more presicely Jól. :smallconfused:

Now that I think about I'm not even sure if there are any jews living here, I mean there must be but I've never met one or know anyone that's ever met one and I'm pretty sure that there isn't a temple anywhere.

LaZodiac

2011-12-23, 09:53 PM

Well, normal Christmas doesn't have 13 little gifts up to Christmas, but Hannakuh, far as I know, kinda DOES.

pffh

2011-12-23, 10:00 PM

Well, normal Christmas doesn't have 13 little gifts up to Christmas, but Hannakuh, far as I know, kinda DOES.

Eh we might have cannibalized that from them or it's just random happenstance considering the santas come one at a time from the mountains (reason for the gifts) and then leave again one at a time (and we have fireworks on the night that the last leaves). The santas were also first just normal trolls/monsters that terrorized people/tested their faith/used to scare kids on the days leading up to christmas (reason why we celebrate when they're gone) and the gift stuff is a fairly recent (1960) addition.

But all in all if it is or isn't related to hanukah I find it interesting how mythology assimilates other cultures stuff.

LaZodiac

2011-12-23, 10:13 PM

Where are you from that has this style? Just curious.

pffh

2011-12-23, 10:22 PM

Iceland This wasn't long enough so now "boooo I am the ghost of christmas past future."

Scarlet Knight

2011-12-23, 10:25 PM

I am shocked that on this forum, we actually have to defend the benefits of fantasy.

Titanium Fox

2011-12-23, 10:42 PM

It's kind of funny. I figured it out when I was three years old that Santa didn't exist, and I was blabbering on at another kid's birthday party about it, telling all the other little kids that santa couldn't possibly exist. And all of the parents were absolutely livid at my mother, because they assumed that she told me he wasn't real.

Says a little about the social pressure to continue on the myth of Santa Clause in children's lives.

Tebryn

2011-12-23, 10:43 PM

Well...because of the fact that we're all grown (or at least teenage) people we can separate (for the most part) fact from myth. Impressionable children are not usually in that category though. Equating Santa Claus to a game of D&D or a video game isn't really fair because they're not on the same level. No one is out there telling their children that if you're good, on the day of December 25th Commander Shepard flies around the world in his space ship delivering hand guns and giving the naughty charred body parts instead.

Edit: That's a far cooler story then Santa Claus as well by the way.

Helanna

2011-12-23, 11:03 PM

No one is out there telling their children that if you're good, on the day of December 25th Commander Shepard flies around the world in his space ship delivering hand guns and giving the naughty charred body parts instead.

Edit: That's a far cooler story then Santa Claus as well by the way.

Yeah, the real question here is "why not?"

Anyway, I don't even remember when I believed in Santa. My mom played along with the whole thing, so I probably did at one point though. I do remember one time my sister and I found some presents stashed away in the basement. I wasn't sure whether she still believed or not, so I told her that Santa was probably just storing them there. (She just kind of looked at me. She was probably five or six then.)

Tomorrow is my family Christmas party, maybe I'll ask my mom when I stopped believing and if there was a particular reason.

Tebryn

2011-12-23, 11:09 PM

Yeah, the real question here is "why not?".

Because that's silly :smalltongue:

Misery Esquire

2011-12-23, 11:12 PM

Because that's silly :smalltongue:

Ah, but would you rather be considered silly, or be without the additional little stocking stuffers "Santa" gets you? :smalltongue:

(I take the additional presents, myself, at age 21 no less.)

LaZodiac

2011-12-23, 11:22 PM

Iceland This wasn't long enough so now "boooo I am the ghost of christmas past future."

Cool!

Well...because of the fact that we're all grown (or at least teenage) people we can separate (for the most part) fact from myth. Impressionable children are not usually in that category though. Equating Santa Claus to a game of D&D or a video game isn't really fair because they're not on the same level. No one is out there telling their children that if you're good, on the day of December 25th Commander Shepard flies around the world in his space ship delivering hand guns and giving the naughty charred body parts instead.

Edit: That's a far cooler story then Santa Claus as well by the way.

Of course. That's because Shepard's a girl, duh :smalltongue:

Dienekes

2011-12-23, 11:25 PM

I never intend on having kids so the question is pretty much a moot point.

But, personally, one of the earliest (possibly the earliest) memories I have is me as a kid bounding down the stairs looking for what Santa brought me. Somehow knowing the jolly man himself came and placed me as one of the nice ones made the gift that much more special.

Why would I not give the next generation the same pleasure I had?

Elfin

2011-12-24, 12:03 AM

Do you think the person nearest you is about to kill you? That they aren't plotting to kill you? Always? Do you think that gravity is what keeps you on the ground? Do you think there's an unlimited universe out there? A limited universe? Do you think that your bank is keeping your money safe, not plotting to run off with it at the first moment you look away?

That's all faith.

No, it's not faith at all. I don't think the person next to me is about to kill me, because the evidence I have indicates that that is not true. I know from past experience that it is unlikely, because I have been around many people before and none have ever tried to kill me. Using logic, I can reason that the person nearest from me has nothing to gain from killing me, no reason that I know of to kill me, and would in fact lose a great deal by doing so.

I think gravity is what keeps me on the ground, because all of the evidence I have points to that being true. If I had evidence that indicated otherwise, I would change my opinion. That's exactly the difference between belief and reason: belief is static, while reason is dynamic, because it is based on evidence rather than faith.

As for Santa Claus, it seems to me to be a fairly innocuous myth and I don't see it doing any harm. What I do think is harmful, though, is the fallacious and illogical attitude presented in the Hogfather quote and the 1897 editorial.

Starwulf

2011-12-24, 02:20 AM

As a parent of three, and someone who is in a very poor financial situation at the moment, I will add my opinion to the madness...

Growing up, my parents did all the stuff, Tooth Fairy, Santa, Easter Bunny, etc. I can't remember when I figured out that it was my parents who were actually doing all of it, but the really fun part for me was that I had two brothers who were quite a bit younger than me (6 years and 10 years) so I got to join the fun in continuing the tradition. Staying up to wrap the presents on Christmas Eve while having a glass of wine with my dad when I was home from school, etc. Taking bites out of the cookies and carrots. It became part of the family tradition. When my younger brother figured things out, he started doing the same for our youngest brother.

Now, having children of my own, this has become part of my own family tradition. Granted, I want to start much earlier in the evening, and I can get frustrated when my kids just won't go to bed, but it's an exciting time for them.

It's about knowing you go to bed, and in the morning, you wake up and rush out to find a stocking with small things you can open and play with (and eat-we always had an apple or orange) until Mom and Dad got up. Seeing the presents under the tree that weren't there before. And the lights were on (Santa must've turned them on, because Mom and Dad always turned them off at bedtime). It's magical. And for young children, it's the magic that counts more than anything. The surprise.

Now, as far as for children whose parents may not be able to afford as much as other kids' parents. Andre and I have had a very rough run of years. Many of them since we've had kids. It's amazing how you can stretch money when you have to. We've been fortunate to have family members who have helped us with gifts for our children. We have also looked for help in our community. There are resources out there. It takes giving up some pride, but I've done so much of that the last several years.

Do they really need masses of things? Everything on their lists? Lots of expensive stuff? No. They have tons of stuff already. Much of it that is never played with. (Having 3 boys is useful, they want the same type of stuff to play with...) One "big" gift each is probably enough, with smaller things to fill out what they get. Also, I like the Dollar store. Gifts can be small things, and now I realize why there was always an apple or an orange in our stockings...

Ya know, I told myself I wasn't going to comment on anyone's post on this thread, because apparently this is a much more volatile topic then I would have ever thought it to be, but after reading the entire thread, your post really stands out and calls to me.

As I've recently mentioned on these forums, I'm disabled(broken back that won't heal and can't be fixed). I am married(to a most wonderful wife), and have two beautiful little girls. Our annual income is just under 14k a year, so I know all about having to swallow your pride and accept help from your friends and family, and the community around you. But it is so very worth it, when on Christmas morning, you get woken up by your very excited kids, who have already snuck out to the living-room, and are now excitedly shouting, just inches from your ear "Santa Clause came, Santa Clause came". It's the most wonderful feeling in the world knowing that through your own extreme skimping and saving, as well as some help from loving friends and family, that you've managed to provide your kids with a momentously happy and joyful occasion.

I do want to add though, that something that makes me and my wife feel even happier though, is the knowledge, that despite how incredibly poor we are, that we can still give back to the community. Every year, around this time, we gather up all the old clothing and toys that our children don't play with anymore, plus other things that don't get used around the house, bag it up, and take it to the local goodwill. Twice in the last 5 years, we've been asked by rather jaded bag-takers "you want a receipt for that for a tax-deduction", and both times, when we answered quickly and firmly "No", a light has shown up in the persons eyes, a smile appears on their face, and you can literally see the christmas spirit awake inside them as they say, with the utmost sincerity in their voice "You have a Merry Christmas and god bless you both". I and my family may be poor, but despite that, we are still able to give back to those who given so much to us, and be happy in the knowledge that some family just as bad, if not worse off then us, will be able to provide gifts for THEIR children and be woken up with identical screams of "Santa Clause came Mommy & Daddy, he really did!".

Despite all the arguing going on in this thread, I'd just like to take the time to wish EVERYONE in this thread and all of GITP forums a Merry Christmas(or whatever you may celebrate) and the hopes that you have the most Happiest of Holidays, and that much love and joy will be shared between you and your loved ones.

Ulysses WkAmil

2011-12-24, 02:32 AM

Santa adds an aura of mystery and imagination that intrigues kids, or at least scares them into behaving.

Dr.Epic

2011-12-24, 03:25 AM

I think the more difficult problem is telling your kids Slash isn't real.:smallwink:

Kindablue

2011-12-24, 03:53 AM

... Santa Claus isn't real?! :smalleek:

Dr.Epic

2011-12-24, 05:27 AM

... Santa Claus isn't real?! :smalleek:

No. He's real. And he conquered the Martians. Something we humans couldn't even do until we discovered just sneezing on them is fatal because our germs are deadly to them. I guess Santa Claus doesn't bathe much, not that he really needs to being surrounded by tiny, little people and deer in a frozen wasteland.

TheCountAlucard

2011-12-24, 05:32 AM

No. He's real. And he conquered the Martians.But he in turn got conquered (and possibly raped) by the Ultimate Warrior. :smalleek:

Dr.Epic

2011-12-24, 05:34 AM

But he in turn got conquered (and possibly raped) by the Ultimate Warrior. :smalleek:

But didn't you see Silent Night Deadly Night Part 2? Santa can handle himself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7gIpuIVE3k):smallwink:

V'icternus

2011-12-24, 06:41 AM

Well, I never really bought into the Santa Claus thing... but not for lack of my parents trying.

Staying up all night to make sure the presents only showed up under the tree at the right time, all that stuff.
Heck, my dad will still insist that Santa brought all the gifts. :smalltongue:

But it just never seemed like a thing that actually occurred, you know?

I was the same way about most things, though.

Nonexistant until proven otherwise. Heh.

But I was an unusual child, and if I were to ever have a child or be responsible for one, I'd let them believe this harmless little illusion until about... seven? Eight?

What age is acceptable?

I know when I was seven I was at the point where I was ready to really learn things.

Am I alone in this, or is that a good age for it?

Much more difficult than anything else is convincing your child that brushing their teeth and eating right is seriously important.

No concept of mortality and all that...

THAC0

2011-12-24, 07:41 AM

But I was an unusual child, and if I were to ever have a child or be responsible for one, I'd let them believe this harmless little illusion until about... seven? Eight?

What age is acceptable?

It depends entirely on the child, IMO. I figured it out quite young (before five, I think). My brother, on the other hand, insisted that he believed throughout middle school, because he wanted to believe and that was what he needed. I'm sure he knew it wasn't real before that, but it was important to him to pretend to believe.

It's a matter of knowing your kids.

Jzadek

2011-12-24, 10:55 AM

I wouldn't want to be lied to as a child, nor would I want to lie to my children. If they specifically ask, then I'll tell them what I think. But I'd prefer to let them make their own decisions, like I would about a religious or political matter. I'd emphasise that above all else.

Scarlet Knight

2011-12-24, 11:30 AM

Well, in the end, most parents participate in beneficent lying. Alternatively, millions of people go through life never hearing of Santa and do fine.

I believe in Santa. My children believed and I will do my best to have my grandchildren believe. If Frank Church cannot persuade, I doubt that I can succeed. Still, perhaps watching Miracle on 34th Street may work.

We can disagree and that is fine. Merry Christmas everyone, as now I must begin to prepare for the family celebration.

God bless everyone of us!

Tragic_Comedian

2011-12-24, 11:44 AM

super dark33

2011-12-24, 11:59 AM

Well, jewish people dont celabrate christmess= no santa, but we do have a mini-treadition in passover that is similiar.

It is simple really, a biblical figure called Elijaho the prophet walks each passover to jewish homes. you put a glass of wine on the table so he will drink it and bless your home.

its pretty easy to grow up on it, since you dont realy get anything from it, but Your Milage May Very.

I remember growing up on it when i was setting an ambush for him with my eldest brother when i was 8.
its still a nice treadition for Dad/Older brother-trolling when you drink the glass and watch the little ones get excited.

EmeraldRose

2011-12-24, 01:39 PM

Ya know, I told myself I wasn't going to comment on anyone's post on this thread, because apparently this is a much more volatile topic then I would have ever thought it to be, but after reading the entire thread, your post really stands out and calls to me.

As I've recently mentioned on these forums, I'm disabled(broken back that won't heal and can't be fixed). I am married(to a most wonderful wife), and have two beautiful little girls. Our annual income is just under 14k a year, so I know all about having to swallow your pride and accept help from your friends and family, and the community around you. But it is so very worth it, when on Christmas morning, you get woken up by your very excited kids, who have already snuck out to the living-room, and are now excitedly shouting, just inches from your ear "Santa Clause came, Santa Clause came". It's the most wonderful feeling in the world knowing that through your own extreme skimping and saving, as well as some help from loving friends and family, that you've managed to provide your kids with a momentously happy and joyful occasion.

I do want to add though, that something that makes me and my wife feel even happier though, is the knowledge, that despite how incredibly poor we are, that we can still give back to the community. Every year, around this time, we gather up all the old clothing and toys that our children don't play with anymore, plus other things that don't get used around the house, bag it up, and take it to the local goodwill. Twice in the last 5 years, we've been asked by rather jaded bag-takers "you want a receipt for that for a tax-deduction", and both times, when we answered quickly and firmly "No", a light has shown up in the persons eyes, a smile appears on their face, and you can literally see the christmas spirit awake inside them as they say, with the utmost sincerity in their voice "You have a Merry Christmas and god bless you both". I and my family may be poor, but despite that, we are still able to give back to those who given so much to us, and be happy in the knowledge that some family just as bad, if not worse off then us, will be able to provide gifts for THEIR children and be woken up with identical screams of "Santa Clause came Mommy & Daddy, he really did!".

Despite all the arguing going on in this thread, I'd just like to take the time to wish EVERYONE in this thread and all of GITP forums a Merry Christmas(or whatever you may celebrate) and the hopes that you have the most Happiest of Holidays, and that much love and joy will be shared between you and your loved ones.

You know, I agree completely! With three growing boys, they go through all the same clothes and toys. When the clothes have been passed down through the youngest, they are generally still in fairly good shape (since they grow so fast...). Many items we have been given by friends and neighbors who know our situation. Once things are too small, I place them in a bin that I keep in our room. (I also keep things that are getting too big for me - yay for finally losing baby weight!) When I fill up the bin, I schedule an AmVets pick up. I don't do it as a tax thing, I do it to give back. I also have my older two boys go thru their toys to give at least one thing each time I donate. Something that another boy or girl would like to have, that may not have as much as my boys have. It can't be something broken or messed up. I try to teach them that there are people who have less than we do. That there have been people and continue to be people who help us.

I don't want my boys to take "things" for granted, but to remember to thank the people who have given them. I know this may not make sense, considering "Santa" is coming tonight, but "Santa" won't be the focus. Santa is just the focus for the magic. Family is the focus. And there will be thanks for the family and friends who have made the holiday for us.

Kindablue

2011-12-24, 03:12 PM

No. He's real. And he conquered the Martians. Something we humans couldn't even do until we discovered just sneezing on them is fatal because our germs are deadly to them. I guess Santa Claus doesn't bathe much, not that he really needs to being surrounded by tiny, little people and deer in a frozen wasteland.

That's reassuring. I guess.

Vaynor

2011-12-24, 03:22 PM

Traab

2011-12-24, 03:52 PM

It depends entirely on the child, IMO. I figured it out quite young (before five, I think). My brother, on the other hand, insisted that he believed throughout middle school, because he wanted to believe and that was what he needed. I'm sure he knew it wasn't real before that, but it was important to him to pretend to believe.

It's a matter of knowing your kids.

In my case I was always more of a scientist child. I needed evidence to disprove santas existence. I suspected he didnt exist for a few years, but it wasnt until 10 or so that I found that box and had my eureka moment.

Tebryn

2011-12-24, 05:03 PM

Ah, but would you rather be considered silly, or be without the additional little stocking stuffers "Santa" gets you? :smalltongue:

(I take the additional presents, myself, at age 21 no less.)

Of course I'd like it. There's plenty of things I'd like, but wishing and living as if I was going to get them when I never will is folly. :smalltongue:

Of course. That's because Shepard's a girl, duh :smalltongue:

That's only because you're a Lay-Shepardite.

Chainsaw Hobbit

2011-12-24, 06:33 PM

My parents never told me Saint Nicholas was real. I'm glad about this. I would have been really pissed when I found out. I'm always quite hurt when they mislead me, and I was a rather emotionally volatile child who wouldn't have taken something like that well.

Knaight

2011-12-24, 06:36 PM

I am shocked that on this forum, we actually have to defend the benefits of fantasy.

Everyone in the discussion is all for fantasy. It's just that many of us are not for presenting fantasy as anything other than fantasy.

Tebryn

2011-12-24, 07:37 PM

Everyone in the discussion is all for fantasy. It's just that many of us are not for presenting fantasy as anything other than fantasy.

A fair standard quite frankly. When people start looking at fantasy as real we call that delusion. :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II

2011-12-24, 11:03 PM

A fair standard quite frankly. When people start looking at fantasy as real we call that delusion. :smalltongue:

Next you'll tell me MLP isn't real. Pinkie Pie can't be false. :smallbiggrin:

Das Platyvark

2011-12-24, 11:08 PM

I still believe in magic, because magic is very real. But Santa Claus... I dunno.

Exactly. I am convinced of my psychic potential, if not ability. But Santa...
I never really believed, nor cared. I got presents.

Tebryn

2011-12-25, 02:32 AM

Next you'll tell me MLP isn't real. Pinkie Pie can't be false. :smallbiggrin:

People believe crazier things. Your belief that a talking pink pony is at the very least not a harmful doctrine. I'd say neither is Santa mind you, but the point remains that I care what I believe is true and supported by evidence and want others to see that that standard is fair one.

Scarlet Knight

2011-12-26, 09:30 AM

You know, I've been thinking, since nearly every culture has fairy tales, what studies have been done on their benefits? I mean besides for religion or explaining the unknown.

Any psychologists or Social anthropologists out there?

Partysan

2011-12-26, 10:07 AM

Everyone in the discussion is all for fantasy. It's just that many of us are not for presenting fantasy as anything other than fantasy.
QFT

Since I'm from a nonreligious family, we practically celebrated christmas just so the children wouldn't feel left out and because celebrating with your family in mid-winter is nice, as are presents.
The idea of Santa is actually someone I as child (I'm the oldest) brought into the family and my parents played along for fun (although they never seriously outright told me he existed). I semi-believed in him for a while (by just not thinking about it all), mostly because as a child I was somewhat into doing things the way they "should be", and then later discarded the belief just as easily as I adopted it. Heck, I even dressed up as St. Nick myself, once.

Similarly, I might tell me children about Santa and I might play along if they like the idea, but I will not lie. If they seriously ask me, I will tell them the truth. That's the least I owe them.

Coidzor

2011-12-26, 11:02 AM

the point remains that I care what I believe is true and supported by evidence and want others to see that that standard is fair one.

That's not at issue here.

What is at issue here is whether you'll tell children that fall into your possession about Santa Claus and if you do if you'll defeat the point of telling the stories by having enough disclaimers about them being lies to choke a yak.

Knaight

2011-12-26, 11:06 AM

What is at issue here is whether you'll tell children that fall into your possession about Santa Claus and if you do if you'll defeat the point of telling the stories by having enough disclaimers about them being lies to choke a yak.
"This is fictional" and variants is not enough to somehow invalidate the story. By that logic, every novel with "A Novel" on either cover is somehow invalid as a story.

pendell

2011-12-26, 11:52 AM

I used the :smallconfused: because there's no "curious smiley" besides the question mark, which isn't a smiley. And I like smileys.

Ahem.

A different thread in which the subject got mentioned got me thinking, this being the holiday season and all - what do my fellow playgrounders (parents, parents-to-be, children, and people who were once children... which covers most of the bases, I think :smallwink:) think about Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, and all such similar fairytale myths which are traditionally told to young children?

Do you think that it is a good idea to teach children things which are false with the understanding that it is a "harmless childhood thing" that they'll eventually grow up and out of? Do you think that it is a bad idea to teach children false things because it isn't good to convince impressionable people that the false is true, or because this may cause them to lose faith in the parent when they discover that they've been "lied to"? How do you/have you/would you handle that with your own children? How did your parents handle it? What about when they start asking questions, like the thread title? How do/would/have you/your parents/your friends/your friends' parents handle it?

As I've said, I've been thinking about it for a while. I know people who follow the traditions of telling their children about Santa who plan to tell the truth when their children start asking. I know people who plan to be deliberately vague and let their children work it out on their own. I know people who tell their children Santa doesn't exist from the very beginning. I at least know of people who have felt that their trust of their parents was betrayed when they found out the truth. I know people who really couldn't care less.

So, what do you all think, playgrounders?

I think it's a terrible idea, honestly. When I was a widdle tyke I *believed* in Santa Claus because my parents and the tv and all the authority figures told me it was, and I was the lone hold out at a much older age arguing for Santa Claus because I believed my parents wouldn't lie to me.

Finding out that I *had* been lied to has caused me a great deal of difficulty in believing them on anything else they tell me. Why shouldn't those things be lies too?

I wish I had a good answer. I fully understand wanting children not to be left out of the holiday fun, but at very young ages children have a lot of trouble with the concept of fiction. I know that I attempted to eat the coffee table because I saw cookie monster do it on sesame street.

I'll have to leave it to the parents on this thread to sort this out, since I can't have kids of my own, but I would prefer one of two approaches:

1) Never lie to my children (although they aren't authorized, necessarily, to know the whole truth either).

2) If my children are going to find out there's no Santa Claus, they need to find it out from me, not from someone else.

To my mind, any relationship of worth is built on a foundation of trust and credibility. Faithfulness works everywhere, between employers and employees, between husbands and wives, officers and soldiers, parents and children.

How to do those things and yet still have a festive holiday ... well, I confess I don't have children, and I suspect doing this properly is much, much harder than it is to write an internet post about it. I'm curious to see if there are other people with my convictions who made this happen properly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Coidzor

2011-12-26, 11:55 AM

"This is fictional" and variants is not enough to somehow invalidate the story. By that logic, every novel with "A Novel" on either cover is somehow invalid as a story.

No, because novels are not verbal, whereas it rather muddies up the narrative flow and makes the kid look askance at one's self as to why one is telling the kid the story if one feels the need to keep going on about how it's not true at all.

Pointing out that a parable never happened distracts from the parable itself. Further, generally children who don't have enough judgment to work it all out for themselves are not reading novels. :smalltongue:

Imagine having to do that with every story one read to a child, because that's what you have to do in order to be consistent with such a worldview. At least until the kid picks up on it and finds it patronizing and asks one to stop, I suppose.

Knaight

2011-12-26, 11:10 PM

No, because novels are not verbal, whereas it rather muddies up the narrative flow and makes the kid look askance at one's self as to why one is telling the kid the story if one feels the need to keep going on about how it's not true at all.
One of the equivalents is "This is a story about...", which is pretty much a standard start to short verbal stories.

Pointing out that a parable never happened distracts from the parable itself. Further, generally children who don't have enough judgment to work it all out for themselves are not reading novels. :smalltongue:
Parables are by default fictional, and as such don't need a disclaimer. Moreover, prefacing them with "There is a story about..." or similar doesn't invalidate them.

Imagine having to do that with every story one read to a child, because that's what you have to do in order to be consistent with such a worldview. At least until the kid picks up on it and finds it patronizing and asks one to stop, I suppose.
The default state of many stories is fictional, and that much is known. Which means that, for instance, if a kid asks you to tell them a story and you do so, fiction is assumed. If you share an anecdote, truth is assumed. The only place one needs to point this out is in fictional stories that are being peddled as truth elsewhere. Moreover, odds are good that, completely out of context of actually telling the story the Santa question is going to come up, and all one has to do is answer "no, Santa isn't real"; Santa is the most egregious case of fiction being peddled as truth. It's barely anything that one has to do to be consistent - all one has to do is not lie.

Coidzor

2011-12-27, 01:26 AM

One of the equivalents is "This is a story about...", which is pretty much a standard start to short verbal stories.

Then you're not explicitly telling the child that it's not real to the point where it detracts from the story. :smalltongue:

The Durvin

2011-12-27, 01:47 AM

I remember once--I forget how old I was--when my grandma asked if I still believed in Santa. "Well...yeah..." I said. "So not really, but you're afraid to say no, just in case?" she said. "Yeah, pretty much," I said. Still got lots of presents, anyhow.
As for telling the kids stories, I don't know. I don't care that I'm not aware of magic being real; I feel like kids are going to grow up better if they think it is. Might even make them smarter as they grow up and start to try and figure out how things really work, but I just made that up and I'm not sure I believe it.
When I do have kids, though, we're going to be ridiculously cross-cultural, especially around The Holidays. Every culture in the world seems to have a holiday around the Winter Solstice; I think it has something to do with craving family and company in the darkest and usually coldest part of the year. It's usually a festival of lights, with presents being given, especially to the young kids, and if you strip it down to that, it seems pretty primitive...the tribe gathers together around the communal fire to exchange resources to keep the village alive. One I only recently heard of was Pancha Ganapati (if I'm remembering that right), a five-day Hindu festival celebrating Ganesha on December 21-25. The holiday involves decorating a statue of Ganesha--a big, fat, jolly guy that loves junk food and provides good fortune--with things a lot like tinsel and Christmas lights, and then all the kids get presents. So if the Catholic church grafted the imagery of St. Nicholas onto the tradition of Odin bring kids presents on Yule, I figure our family will syncretize Ganesha into it too. I don't think the kids will be too traumatized by the notion of a one-eyed elephant-man coming down the chimney, as long as we leave out Santa's helpers from Europe Black Peter (a Moorish dwarf that beats the bad kids), Pere Fouttard (a sort of evil twin of Santa that beats the bad kids), or Krampus (an actual freaking demon, enslaved by St. Nick, that beats the bad kids). Then we'll tell them the story of how he beat up the Grinch, turned Scrooge good by sending him a dentist ghost, and convinced a singing skeleton to not steal his job, and then we'll light a hybrid of a menorah and one of those African menorahs they have at Kwanzaa and eat spice-cookies and latkes. Merry Decemberween. everyone!

Jzadek

2012-01-01, 01:35 PM

I am so going to tell my kids that a Moorish Dwarf is coming for them.

missmvicious

2012-01-01, 05:02 PM

My husband and I actually discus this in great length every Winter. Our son is 16 months old now, so Santa doesn't mean anything to him, so we've taken our time thinking about it.

So far, our conclusion is that no one likes the game-breaker kid whose parents told him the truth about Santa way to early. We don't want our kid to be that kid. Childhood is hard enough without him dealing with that drama. Not to mention all the angry parents who found out which parent blew the game for everyone else.

We're going to let our son have his fairy tales. It's part of having a healthy and active imagination, I think.

Reinboom

2012-01-01, 05:51 PM

I strongly disagree with the earlier proposed ideas that you should use the fairy tales to get a child excited for Christmas, a child can be excited for something without that. Generally, they need no excuse.
Cases in point:
Birthdays.

I was super excited for my birthday every year because it was "my day". I didn't have to comprehend what the "birth" part of that meant. I just knew I got stuff and people where extra nice to me on that day. People who would give me stuff when they otherwise really couldn't afford to. My parents couldn't afford to do parties, and it was always "There could be cake, but if there is, we can't afford you a present." My siblings would generally do something like get me a 25 cent pack of "now or later", or - one sibling in particular - would give me a single dollar every year without ever forgetting.
It was still magical. No big red guy required.

Even for Christmas in particular, I was NOT excited by santa claus. I didn't care if he existed or not. Just that there was someone who would get me gifts on this day, just for me.

Now do you know what really sucks, and I emphasize this growing up poor while young?
"Knowing" for that brief time that Santa exists and that he likes your friend more than he likes you.
I'm very happy that my parents never emphasized that Santa is real and especially glad that they just went "Yep! Not real! Now it's your secret to keep too!" when I informed that I knew that he wasn't real.

For parents struggling with "I don't want my child to be that child!": That's not putting very much trust in your children. Making it a game where they just try to keep it a secret from those who do believe, in my experience, works a lot better.
It means less playground spats between those children who do believe and those who don't. I recall quite a very violent spat from a child who wished to forcefully show another child they should believe because "My parents wouldn't lie to me! Stop saying that! I'll beat you up until you stop saying my parents are lying!"
Please concentrate more on NOT raising that child.

Dr.Epic

2012-01-01, 06:00 PM

That's reassuring. I guess.

I wrote an entire book on hypothetical fight scenarios between holiday mascots and extraterrestrials.:smallwink:

grimbold

2012-01-02, 06:11 AM

but...
santa claus is real!

Dr.Epic

2012-01-02, 11:17 AM

4 Stages of Life:

-You believe in Santa.
-You don't believe in Santa.
-You are Santa.
-You look like Santa.

:smallwink:

turkishproverb

2012-01-02, 11:25 AM

Fiction is not the same thing as childhood falsehood and childhood fantasy. Falsehood is trying to make someone believe something that you know isn't true, with fiction, everyone involved is aware that it isn't real. That doesn't make it less valuable - The people who made the cell phone and the computer were well aware that the stories from science fiction were fictional, and that didn't discourage them. Moreover, that they had the ability to make those things were due to scientific discoveries, and those are all about trying to find truth, and using experimentation instead of just trusting in stories. Are those methods and the knowledge gained from them, as well as the use of that knowledge somehow useless as a result? No.

The ideas of justice, duty, and mercy are not lies simply because they aren't universally applied. A lie would be to state that they are universally applied, knowing full well that they aren't. "All children get the gifts they deserve", for instance, implicit in the Santa story, is a lie for all but the few that actually believe that, in which case it is merely accidental misinformation.

Really? You're going with "objective truth" and "lie" and ignoring everything else? What exactly is a simplified model of reality, used with an understanding of where it is useful? What exactly is a concept that doesn't exist?

As for the hogfather quote: It is predicated on things that are true being objects, and nothing else. Arrangements? Lies. The same logic used for the concepts shown can be applied to something like life - grind the whole universe up, sift through it, and look, there isn't a single atom of life. It applies to language - there isn't a single atom of "words" either, that doesn't make them fictional. For that matter, no particular pattern of vibration is a "word" either without the model built around it. The entire quote conflates "a material" and "not a material" with "truth" and "lie", then calls lies useful because things that are not materials are useful, then adds an assumption that you need the little lies for the big ones to work and that the big ones matter.

It's not predicated on them being objects, it's a metaphorical point. Justice DOES NOT EXIST. Nevermind the material, from the point of view of the novel, in concept it IS A LIE. The unjust happens all the Time, being the norm rather than the exception. It is a fleeting ideal, no more important to the reality of a situation than the fat man in a red suit. But, to use my own wording again, justice should. And similarly Santa should. Teaching people in their younger years about what should as though it is is no great crime.

A jolly old man should deliver presents to the children of the world every year. Justice should be a reality of the world's workings. But, well, the world isn't as it should. Yet.

The question is, is the way to make these things a reality to cherish them; or is it to discard them as so much vanity and "not real" simply because the world currently fails to be what it should?

Fiery Diamond

2012-01-02, 06:34 PM

It's not predicated on them being objects, it's a metaphorical point. Justice DOES NOT EXIST. Nevermind the material, from the point of view of the novel, in concept it IS A LIE. The unjust happens all the Time, being the norm rather than the exception. It is a fleeting ideal, no more important to the reality of a situation than the fat man in a red suit. But, to use my own wording again, justice should. And similarly Santa should. Teaching people in their younger years about what should as though it is is no great crime.

A jolly old man should deliver presents to the children of the world every year. Justice should be a reality of the world's workings. But, well, the world isn't as it should. Yet.

The question is, is the way to make these things a reality to cherish them; or is it to discard them as so much vanity and "not real" simply because the world currently fails to be what it should?

Justice is a concept, not a state of existence. It does exist, it just doesn't get applied everywhere and all the time. In other words, I completely disagree with both you and that arrogant book.

turkishproverb

2012-01-02, 07:58 PM

Justice is a concept, not a state of existence. It does exist, it just doesn't get applied everywhere and all the time. In other words, I completely disagree with both you and that arrogant book.

It's a concept rooted in falsehood and unreality through not getting applied, and the universal unappliance and non existence of it in a real realm. No different from a man traveling around the whole world in one night delivering gifts. "There is justice" is no different than "world peace" or "there is Santa" save for the fact that a young child may have circumstantial evidence of the man in the red suit. Evidence of justice, even as a concept, IS A LIE. The world doesn't work that way. Much as we wish it did. Suggesting otherwise is an untruth.

However, it should work that way. And that's why people fight so hard to say it does exist. One could easily ask the same questions sceptics do on Santa: Why don't you let go of these falsehoods and come into reality? There is no justice. It doesn't exist, the concept is a lie, just as telling someone "there is world peace" is a lie. Stop filling

But, for the lovers, the dreamers of dreams, the magic makers...well, things aren't that binary. There should be world peace. There should be a man giving every good child a gift. there should be justice. It's the job of the good people of the world to fill in the gap in reality.

but...
santa claus is real!

just ignore the nonbelievers. :smallsmile:

Heliomance

2012-01-03, 07:50 AM

It's not predicated on them being objects, it's a metaphorical point. Justice DOES NOT EXIST. Nevermind the material, from the point of view of the novel, in concept it IS A LIE. The unjust happens all the Time, being the norm rather than the exception. It is a fleeting ideal, no more important to the reality of a situation than the fat man in a red suit. But, to use my own wording again, justice should. And similarly Santa should. Teaching people in their younger years about what should as though it is is no great crime.

I think Don Miguel de Cervantes said it best.

Life as it is? I have lived for over 40 years and I have seen life as it is. Pain. Misery. Cruelty beyond belief - I've heard all the voices of God's noblest creature. Moans from bundles of filth in the streets. I've been a soldier, and a slave. I've seen my comrades fall in battle, or die more slowly under the lash in Africa, I've held them at the last moment. These were men who saw life as it is. But they died despairing. No glory, no brave, last words, only their eyes, filled with confusion. Questioning why. I do not think they were asking why they were dying, but why they had ever lived. WHen life itself seems lunatic who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness, to surrender dreams, this may be madness, to seek treasure where there is only trash, too much sanity may be madness!

But maddest of all, to see life as it is, and not as it should be!

Asta Kask

2012-01-03, 07:59 AM

I don't think anyone has advocated that we give up our dreams and ambitions. But what's the use of telling children lies?

Telling children that there really is a Santa Claus is teling them something which isn't so. We have a word for that - lying. It's not a particularly egregious lie; kids usually figure it out for themselves. But it's a lie nonetheless.

Knaight

2012-01-03, 08:17 AM

It's a concept rooted in falsehood and unreality through not getting applied, and the universal unappliance and non existence of it in a real realm. No different from a man traveling around the whole world in one night delivering gifts. "There is justice" is no different than "world peace" or "there is Santa" save for the fact that a young child may have circumstantial evidence of the man in the red suit.
Wrong. Justice is very much a real idea, simply one utterly lacking in application. World peace is also very much a real idea, which is similarly lacking in application. Telling people that those ideas exist is not lying, telling people that they have been implemented is. Similarly, telling people that the fictional character of Santa exists is not lying, and telling them that said fictional character is real is. Moreover, to say that these things have not been implemented is not to say that they are not valuable. Real and valuable are utterly unrelated concepts - I can find plenty of real things that are not valuable, and plenty of valuable things that are not real, as can anyone else who hasn't decided to treat the terms as synonymous.

pendell

2012-01-04, 03:28 PM

Wrong. Justice is very much a real idea, simply one utterly lacking in application. World peace is also very much a real idea, which is similarly lacking in application. Telling people that those ideas exist is not lying, telling people that they have been implemented is.

To me, if I can borrow from Plato's Allegory of the cave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave), what the two of you are describing is the difference between the ideal and the real

Justice is an ideal. It is what we want, something we strive for, something we aim for.

But -- because it IS an ideal -- we hardly ever encounter it here in the real world.

Justice and world peace are what should be, not what is.

But just because we can't ever achieve the ideal in the real world, does it mean that the ideal is mistaken? Is it not worth striving for , even if you'll never experience the fullness of it?

If you reconcile a husband and a wife to each other, it may not be world peace, but isn't it worth doing anyway?

To my mind, ideals are not "false", in the sense of being mistaken. They are merely out of reach to us common mortals, as are the stars in the sky.

Just because we can't reach them doesn't mean they aren't there.

To my mind,an ideal is not false unless you actually claim it really is possible to realize it in the real world or -- even worse -- you claim that you HAVE actually realized it.

To me, something like justice and mercy is an entirely different thing from Santa Claus. Even as a child I could recognize that justice was something to strive for even though it was very hard to achieve and is sometimes nonexistent. That's a very different thing from claiming that certain facts are real-life true when they real-life aren't.

So I respectfully disagree with Terry Pratchett, even if he is one of my favorite authors. I don't think children need practice believing in lies to believe in imagination, to believe in ideals, to believe in things they cannot see. If anything, I think kids already KNOW how to do these things -- to me at least the unseen world was as real as the one seen with eyes.

Adults don't need to teach kids ideals. Kids already have them. Adults teach children skepticism. To my mind deliberately telling a child a falsehood is a cruel way to pass on that lesson.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

turkishproverb

2012-01-05, 12:19 AM

pendell, I respect you way of wording things, but in short, you over-simplify and at the same time over-complicate.

I don't believe in Ideals vs real. I believe in ideas. I don't make quite the same distinction between concept and object.

I believe in justice, but it's not real. however it should, and good people should work to make it so.

In similar note, I believe in Santa, because he should exist. Making that objectively provable non-fiction by people's standard would probably even be a good bit easier than justice or world peace.

Odentin

2012-01-05, 08:16 AM

There was a topic my wife showed me over on the Offbeat Empire regarding this subject...

Here it is. (http://offbeatmama.com/2010/12/truth-about-santa)

Z3ro

2012-01-05, 04:27 PM

1) Never lie to my children (although they aren't authorized, necessarily, to know the whole truth either).

I want to highlight this, because it's an attitude I see all the time and drives me nuts. I get that you think lying to your kids is bad, but isn't lying by omission the same thing? You're deliberately deceiving them in both instances, I don't see a real difference. It's much the same when people will justify little things to themselves that they wouldn't allow in others.

pendell

2012-01-05, 05:38 PM

I want to highlight this, because it's an attitude I see all the time and drives me nuts. I get that you think lying to your kids is bad, but isn't lying by omission the same thing? You're deliberately deceiving them in both instances, I don't see a real difference. It's much the same when people will justify little things to themselves that they wouldn't allow in others.

I don't see the two as comparable. Not telling children things they have no need to know (as, e.g., the mechanics of sex) is not the same thing as deliberately leading them to a false conclusion, whether by commission or by omission.

The term for concealing things which aren't other people's business is called 'privacy', not deception. And I see a big difference between witholding information a child is not ready to process and deliberately leading them to a false conclusion.

Even when omission does rise to the level of deception, I still see a difference between witholding data and deliberately feeding false information. To quote Frodo Baggins, "I told no lies, and of the truth all I could."

The nature of the world is that deception is sometimes necessary. There are both ethical and practical reasons for preferring omission to direct untruth. Ethical, because I believe it better to stick as close to the truth as possible even when the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is wrongheaded -- for instance, when the Nazis ask you if you're hiding Jews.

From a practical standpoint, it's also true that omission is a better method of deception than falsehood, because it's much harder to be caught out. Everything you say can be checked up and verified. That's much safer than making up a story which requires greater and greater elaboration until eventually someone checks up on it and it all falls apart. So even if you're a thorough scoundrel it still makes sense to tell as much truth as you can :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Z3ro

2012-01-05, 05:54 PM

The nature of the world is that deception is sometimes necessary. There are both ethical and practical reasons for preferring omission to direct untruth.

I don't want to disect your whole post, but this little segment displays two important things. One, we're not actually that far apart on this subject, as we both realize that there are times when deciption is necessary. And two, we fundamentally and probably irrevocably disagree on the methods. I don't see any significant difference between lies of ommission and lies of commission, and as such hesitate to use neither as necessary.

Personal story illustrating my frustration: I used to work for this boss who was very religious, and as a part of his religion would never tell a direct lie. He made it a point to emphasize that he never ever lied about anything.

But he decieved people all the time. I remember go out on calls with him one day and never actually doing any business. We went to an oil-change place and he had his oil changed. When I commented that we had to visit some buisnesses, he said we were. He'd put down that we visited the oil-change place, which we did. He never said we sold anything there, but we were there.

I don't see a difference between saying you made a call to a business you didn't attempt to sell to, and just lying and saying you went to a business you didn't. There's semantics, sure, but the end result is the same.

pendell

2012-01-05, 06:20 PM

I don't want to disect your whole post, but this little segment displays two important things. One, we're not actually that far apart on this subject, as we both realize that there are times when deciption is necessary. And two, we fundamentally and probably irrevocably disagree on the methods. I don't see any significant difference between lies of ommission and lies of commission, and as such hesitate to use neither as necessary.

Personal story illustrating my frustration: I used to work for this boss who was very religious, and as a part of his religion would never tell a direct lie. He made it a point to emphasize that he never ever lied about anything.

Much like Durkon Thundershield, eh? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html)

*My* personal story is that I tend to be too open and volunteer too much information, raising questions which don't need to be raised, which can become very tricky when legal issues are involved. I have had the concept of need to know (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need_to_know) pounded quite firmly into my head over the past few years.

At any rate... it sounds like Durkon, your boss, and I are from the same general trad where we are expected not to lie unless absolutely necessary. I include 'lying by omission' and 'deception' in the same category as 'lying'. It may not be the literal thing, but it has the same effect.

I see a fundamental difference between deliberate deception and witholding information a person has neither right nor need to know. If you're ever in a legal, medical, educational, or defense field, you will find yourself strictly charge to protect the confidentiality of others. Why then, should you not also protect your own?

What I'm trying to communicate is that 'omission' is not a synonym for 'lying'. Some omissions are lies, but not all omissions are lies. Some omissions are needful, out of politeness or out of privacy.

Because of .. various experiences .. I have learned that a person should be very truthful in what they say, but should also be very careful in what they share with others. Keeping secrets -- your own and those of others -- is a fundamental life skill. And that is not lying.

Yes, omission CAN be lying, but it's a subset, not a synonym. Because of this, I believe it proper to prefer an omission to a lie whenever possible, not only because it's closer to an honest course of conduct, but also, again, because it's much harder to be caught in.

Also: I WILL, if pushed to the extreme, as in the case of hiding Nazis from Jews, tell a direct lie. But as I said, it is a last resort. It's a bad habit to get into, and the more provably false things you say the more likely you are to be caught out and permanently discredited.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Z3ro

2012-01-05, 06:32 PM

Yes, omission CAN be lying, but it's a subset, not a synonym. Because of this, I believe it proper to prefer an omission to a lie whenever possible, not only because it's closer to an honest course of conduct, but also, again, because it's much harder to be caught in.

I feel that if you're simply leaving out information, that is indeed not a lie. If you are leaving out information with the purpose to deceive, that to me is a lie, and is no different from deliberately telling someone something that is not true.

Also, if you are only doing it so that it is harder to get caught lying, I see that as worse, not better. You're essentially abusing the system to gain an advantage, and that I can't tolerate. Anytime one of my employees has tried to pull the, "Well, technically it was true" line, I go even harder on a punishment.

Also: I WILL, if pushed to the extreme, as in the case of hiding Nazis from Jews, tell a direct lie. But as I said, it is a last resort. It's a bad habit to get into, and the more provably false things you say the more likely you are to be caught out and permanently discredited.

I have no problem that you want to keep things straight and avoid being caught. But tell enough lies, of any kind, and you will be found out. Fortunately, I've found that the solution to being caught lying is usually more lying.

pendell

2012-01-05, 06:45 PM

Z3ro, you say you're a supervisor. How does this impact your relations with your employees?

As an employee, I would much rather a supervisor tell me "we need more work this next month" -- and not mention there isn't any money for any kind of reward or incentive in the budget -- than a supervisor who tells me "if you do more work, I'll give you a raise", which is a lie direct.

No supervisor in the entire world tells employees the whole story. That's one reason they're supervisors. I , personally, would much rather have a boss whose words I can take to the bank -- even if they don't tell the full story -- than a boss who flatly tells me things which are not true.

To my mind, a relationship where both parties can rely on the information they're given by the other works well even when information has to be withheld, even if its for reason of deception. But what kind of relationship is possible when you can't trust what you're being told?

And that's why I think the lie direct -- though sometimes necessary in this fallen world -- is more corrosive and destructive than deception by omission. Although it is better to do neither, of course, but that's not always possible. Anyone who's left a job under less than auspicious circumstances and faced the task of finding another one knows what I'm talking about. As an employer, I'd much rather read a resume that left off the last job than a resume which claimed, for example, a master's degree that was never earned.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Z3ro

2012-01-05, 09:00 PM

Z3ro, you say you're a supervisor. How does this impact your relations with your employees?

As an employee, I would much rather a supervisor tell me "we need more work this next month" -- and not mention there isn't any money for any kind of reward or incentive in the budget -- than a supervisor who tells me "if you do more work, I'll give you a raise", which is a lie direct.

It doesn't impact my relations that I can tell. In the example you've given, I'd take the first option. No reason to lie in that scenario, and I don't see the first statement as a lie unless they normally receive some sort of incentive, and in this case they can't. I would also never lie about something, directly or indirectly, that would have the impact that missed pay would have on a person.

No supervisor in the entire world tells employees the whole story. That's one reason they're supervisors. I , personally, would much rather have a boss whose words I can take to the bank -- even if they don't tell the full story -- than a boss who flatly tells me things which are not true.

But this is where I get confused, and why I think both lies are the same. You can't trust a person that lies by omission, any more than the direct liar. The previous boss I mentioned did this all the time, and you couldn't trust a word out of his mouth. Oh, he wouldn't lie directly, but what you heard was never what you thought you heard. We all hated the way he did business.

As an employer, I'd much rather read a resume that left off the last job than a resume which claimed, for example, a master's degree that was never earned.

And I would agree with you here in general, but like many things there are specific situations where one could be worse. Sure, lying about a degree is bad, but what if the person leaving off their last job was fired from that job for something bad, like theft of company property? That would be something I'd want to know before hiring someone, and leaving it off a resume is just as bad as forging degrees, maybe worse.

pendell

2012-01-06, 12:13 AM

But this is where I get confused, and why I think both lies are the same. You can't trust a person that lies by omission, any more than the direct liar. The previous boss I mentioned did this all the time, and you couldn't trust a word out of his mouth. Oh, he wouldn't lie directly, but what you heard was never what you thought you heard. We all hated the way he did business.

I think you've hit on a fundamental word there: trust. For there to be a good working relationship between two people, you need to be able to trust that other person. If they're trustworthy, it's not so much important whether they lie directly or they omit things if it needs to be done. The important thing is that on the critical issues, the things that really matter, you can turn your back on them without expecting a knife there.

It sounds like your former boss was not someone you could trust. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether he lied or omitted things or twisted the truth to an amazing degree -- the important thing is, he wasn't a person you could trust.

I haven't encountered people like that in business. I have, however, encountered a fair number of liars in business. I've also encountered people who hid things. Usually for good reasons, but even when they had moments of weakness and did it for a wrong reason they still were more or less safe to be around. Perhaps if I had encountered a slippery character such as you describe I would see it differently.

Which brings me back to the original point of this conversation. Although I do not have children, if I did I would want to prove worthy of their trust. You can argue lying versus omission, but the underlying fundamental principle is to achieve trust. That means I don't break their hearts by leading them to believe something that isn't true. It also means I shouldn't be a slippery character who continually said things which, while technically true, were nonetheless deceptive. It may mean that I conceal things from them, for their own good or because I believe it is necessary. It may mean that I will make a mistake in that regard and deceive them to their harm. That's a risk I have to take. I don't think any parent is totally forthcoming with their offspring at all ages, because kids are not always mature enough to deal with it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Z3ro

2012-01-06, 09:13 AM

So we fundamentally agree on those points, which brings us back to the start:

Which brings me back to the original point of this conversation. Although I do not have children, if I did I would want to prove worthy of their trust. You can argue lying versus omission, but the underlying fundamental principle is to achieve trust. That means I don't break their hearts by leading them to believe something that isn't true. It also means I shouldn't be a slippery character who continually said things which, while technically true, were nonetheless deceptive. It may mean that I conceal things from them, for their own good or because I believe it is necessary. It may mean that I will make a mistake in that regard and deceive them to their harm. That's a risk I have to take. I don't think any parent is totally forthcoming with their offspring at all ages, because kids are not always mature enough to deal with it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I do have children (very young) and I haven't yet been put into a situation where I have to deceive them in any fashion. One thing I do want to teach them, however, maybe the most important lesson, is that no one is 100% trustworthy, even their parents. Instead, they should think for themselves.

This may seem like a bad lesson, but consider what it truly entails. No one is 100% correct. And even if I'm not lying to them, I may have been misled, or misinformed, and as a result I may be incorrect. They need to develop the skills to evaluate and analyse a situation to determine what is right.

I'm not really interested in teaching my children right from wrong. I'm interested in teaching them to determine what is right from wrong.

pendell

2012-01-06, 09:22 AM

Well , let me give you an example from an autobiography I have here at home.

Little Dutch girl (this is in the 1920s or so) is riding with daddy on a train, borrows one of daddy's books and sees a line about a girl 'young, whose face is unshadowed by sexsin'.

So she asks dad "What is sexsin?"

Dad's face barely changes. Instead, he pulls over his luggage and asks her, "Will you carry it off the train, Corrie?"

Of course, she can't lift it at all. "I can't, it's too heavy" is her response.

"And it'd be a poor father who would ask his child to carry such a load. You must trust me to bear the burden of that until you're older."

The answer was satisfactory to the child, the father was spared the necessity of a direct answer which simply *wasn't done* in the 1920s, and no one had to lie.

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Yora

2012-01-06, 09:23 AM

I guess when they start asking questions they are already seeing the whole story comming apart at the seams. Telling them their suspicions were justified and their analysation correct, and that investigating the issue get them the answer they are looking for seems like a sensible way to handle it.
You don't have to use the opportunity to teach them about lying, they'll figure that one out all by themselves at that age. :smallbiggrin:

Z3ro

2012-01-06, 10:29 AM

The answer was satisfactory to the child, the father was spared the necessity of a direct answer which simply *wasn't done* in the 1920s, and no one had to lie.

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That is one way to handle that situation, sure. My wife and I feel that if the child is old enough to ask the question, they're old enough to get an age-appropriate answer. We might not include all the details, sure, but telling the little girl that some people treat women differently then men is something she'd be able to understand and might provide a useful lesson.

I guess when they start asking questions they are already seeing the whole story comming apart at the seams. Telling them their suspicions were justified and their analysation correct, and that investigating the issue get them the answer they are looking for seems like a sensible way to handle it.
You don't have to use the opportunity to teach them about lying, they'll figure that one out all by themselves at that age. :smallbiggrin:

This is basically what we've decided to do. We're going to use the Santa story as a teaching tool in critical thinking, helping them work it out for themselves. That way, they still have the fun, but learn a valuable lesson as well.

turkishproverb

2012-01-13, 02:52 PM

Well, since the last quote is passe in a discussion like this, let's try something newere:

Sometimes... the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more. Sometimes... people deserve to have their faith rewarded.

Not exactly my way of looking at it, but an interesting thought that could be associated with it.

I think Don Miguel de Cervantes said it best.

*hugs*

Karoht

2012-01-13, 08:37 PM

A different thread in which the subject got mentioned got me thinking, this being the holiday season and all - what do my fellow playgrounders (parents, parents-to-be, children, and people who were once children... which covers most of the bases, I think :smallwink:) think about Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, and all such similar fairytale myths which are traditionally told to young children?

Do you think that it is a good idea to teach children things which are false with the understanding that it is a "harmless childhood thing" that they'll eventually grow up and out of? Do you think that it is a bad idea to teach children false things because it isn't good to convince impressionable people that the false is true, or because this may cause them to lose faith in the parent when they discover that they've been "lied to"? How do you/have you/would you handle that with your own children? How did your parents handle it? What about when they start asking questions, like the thread title? How do/would/have you/your parents/your friends/your friends' parents handle it?My grandmother had a saying. "It isn't a lie if you make it real."
I believe in Santa. I'm 30 years old, I still believe in Santa.
My grandmother loves christmas. She grew up in London during the Blitz. She grew up with rationing. Her mother was extremely careful in her useage of ration coupons, saved all the right ones until christmas, and she made christmas happen. Not just for the family, but for the whole block.
My grandmother made christmas happen for me. I'm 30 years old in march, she has always worked her bottom off every year to make it have an impact. Especially when I was a child and our family wasn't very well off. There were years where I am certain that without her there would not have been a christmas. That, and my mom was/is a scrooge.

What makes my grandmother any different from Santa?
What makes her mother any different from Santa?
I believe in Santa, that spirit of generocity, of joy and happiness, because someone made it real.

I picture Santa back in the day, some grizzled old guy, who cared so much about the kids in his village or town that he actually did get his sleigh, filled it up with goodies, and went around in the dark cold night and gave them out.
Did that man actually exist? Probably not as I imagine him. Did someone kind hearted as that actually exist? Probably. Do people like that exist today? Most likely.

On the flip side, how about Scrooge? I'm sure someone like that existed once as well. Then had a revelation on christmas eve and tried to be a nicer person. Just my opinion, but I think the tale of Scrooge is actually more important than the figure of Santa Claus, or that the two sort of go hand in hand.

As I've said, I've been thinking about it for a while. I know people who follow the traditions of telling their children about Santa who plan to tell the truth when their children start asking. I know people who plan to be deliberately vague and let their children work it out on their own. I know people who tell their children Santa doesn't exist from the very beginning. I at least know of people who have felt that their trust of their parents was betrayed when they found out the truth. I know people who really couldn't care less.Tell them lies, so that one day they may learn the value of questioning authority. There is some merit in this, but your mileage may vary.
At the same time, I do believe strongly in speaking to children like adults, but stories and myths are kind of a grey area for me.

Just some thoughts.