Terms I don't understand

[Palthera]

I've played D&D 3.5 for years and DMed a campaign that lasted for about six years, I'm now playing some Pathfinder. I thought I owned most of the books.

But there are frequently things talked about on this forum that I have never heard of. Not classes so much, although people occasionally reference feats and things that I can only assume I don't know because I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of the books I own.

What on earth are "tiers" and how are they defined?

What is a "gestalt" class since looking up the word only says it's a german word meaning "the form" or "whole" of something.

[motoko's ghost]

tiers refer to how powerful or versatile a class is, just type in class tiers in the search function and you should find a list.
gestalt is a variant from unearthed arcana where you level up in two classes simultaneously taking the best bits from each.
hope this helps

[Feytalist]

Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) is the complete explanation for tiers. Simply put, it's a ranking system that measures the base classes of D&D in terms of versatility. Tier 1 being most versatile, and tier 5 (or 6) being least versatile. But really, that link explains everything beautifully.

Gestalt is a variant system out of Unearthed Arcana, wherein you combine the best qualities of two different classes into one, and level that up. Roughly speaking.

[Wings of Peace]

tiers refer to how powerful or versatile a class is, just type in class tiers in the search function and you should find a list.

To elaborate on this point the tiers are an entirely community made rating system of each individual class' versatility and therefore problem solving ability.

It's important to remember that the tier system addresses problem solving ability and not just raw combat power. Though in casual discussion you might witness the two terms used interchangeably the distinction is important because combat is only one type of problem that adventurers might need to solve.

[candycorn]

That said, typically the higher tier characters are more versatile and effective, even within combat.

Not always, mind you, but almost always.

[ScIaDrd]

And since it seems your second question was glossed over, a gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) is a way to,yes, fuse two base classes into one whole, choosing the better traits of the two, so for example a gestalt fighter/wizard would have the BAB and hit dice of a Fighter, good Fortitude and Will saves, a familiar and full casting on top of that. Yeah, it is about as ridiculously powerful as it sounds. And once I´ve even seen some powergamer DM, who had gone the extra mile and made an experimental tristalt game, for characters with three classes.:smalleek:

[candycorn]

Yes, popular gestalts are:

Wizard / Factotum (Dungeonscape). While the HP aren't great (d6 from factotum), and the BAB is medicre (cleric progression), this class combination is amazingly functional on all levels of stat buy. It needs intelligence, and that's it. It gets 6+int skills, and has every class skill.

Intelligence adds to: spells per day, attacks, damage, armor class, strength and dex and int skills, each skill once per day.

In addition, you get spell like abilities from factotum to round out your casting (which can't be countered), and you can even use factotum to get extra spells per turn for your wizard side.

Sorceror // Paladin 2 / Marshall 1 / Monk 2 (there's a feat to apply charisma instead of wisdom to AC)

This class gets good BAB progression, solid spells, Charisma to any one type of check, Charisma to AC, evasion, Charisma to saves... You get the point.

[Palthera]

And now that I know them, I do not think I will ever use them. I have never noticed, over my campaign, the wizard being more useful than the rogue and in a current campaign, although we have a sorceror and a cleric, I miss not having a rogue with a burning passion every time we set off a trap or are confronted by a locked door/treasure chest.

Ah well, I'm not obliged to use either system and at least I know what people are talking about now.

[sonofzeal]

And now that I know them, I do not think I will ever use them. I have never noticed, over my campaign, the wizard being more useful than the rogue and in a current campaign, although we have a sorceror and a cleric, I miss not having a rogue with a burning passion every time we set off a trap or are confronted by a locked door/treasure chest.

Ah well, I'm not obliged to use either system and at least I know what people are talking about now.
Traps can be a bit difficult without a Rogue... but a locked door? Really? If your casters are choosing half-decent spells, they'll have ways to deal with things like that. The last Wizard I played with didn't have Knock, but he had Stone Shape if it was set in a stone doorway, fire damage if it was wooden, and acid damage if burning the door down was a problem. He also had Gaseous Form to pass through without opening it, and summons who could bring their own tools (mostly brute force) to the issue. This guy was completely unoptimized, but had half a dozen ways of overcoming those sorts of obstacles.

He also had a tendency to break the DM's campaign by accident. Hostage on top of a tower? Teleport up and bypass the tower completely, or strategic use of Stone Shape could bring the whole thing down - and Resiliant Sphere on the hostage in midair would keep them from going splat. Or, in an incident the DM is still threatening to kill him about, he demolished a hedge maze that was supposed to be the entire session, by summoning termite swarms (bit of homebrew the DM approved without thinking).

Then there was the time he Control Undead'd a major boss fight and got him to slaughter a bunch of otherwise-dangerous encounters for us.

He wasn't the most powerful party member, my Cleric outshone him in most combats... but gorram the guy could destroy a campaign if he got a mind to it.

[Nabirius]

Tiers are lose groupings of classes based on their mechanical abilities. Essentially, when given all the resources they typically need, how many problems can they solve? Wizards are tier 1 because with all the tools at their disposal they can easily drop most encounters of any sort.

For Example an optimized Fighter can generally either trip or charge really well and either battlefield control or nuke enemies to death. Whereas a mage uses several buffs to get +38 initiative, goes first, summons a solar and shapeshifts into a dragon as a free action.

A gestalt is a bit odd, but its essentially multiclassing from 2nd edition. You gain parts of each classes skeleton (base saves and attacks) and class Features (so a Fighter//Wizard would get both spells) along all the weapon proficiencies. However any restrictions on one class must be adhered to

For example a Rouge//Fighter would get the fighters full BAB, the fighters Fort saves and the rouge's Reflex Saves. They would get all the weapon and armor proficiencies of a fighter. They would get sneak attack, rouge abilities like evasion and opportunism, and get fighter feats. However, if the Rouge//Fighter decided to wear heavy armor they would lose the benefits of evasion, because evasion specifically says light or no armor only.

[missmvicious]

Maybe he plays in groups like mine. That would make sense.

In my group we have:
L6 Wizard: Tier 1
L5 Druid: Tier 1
L5 Ranger: Tier 4
L4 Crusader L1 Cleric: Tier... 3?

Then we have a DMPC non-combat Cloistered Cleric who runs from every fight... so Tier 6 or something.

And yet, when it comes to HP damage dealt per encounter:

1st Place: Crusader
2nd Place: Druid
3rd Place: Wizard
4th Place: Ranger

The difference between the Crusader and the Wizard (me... embarrassed now) is he knows how to build. The rest of us never optimize, and never play high level PCs. We always start campaigns at L1, and rarely ever multi-class. The Crusader player is actually from another game-network that builds high-powered super-optimized characters for high-level games. He "toned-it-down" for our sake so we could be involved.

If you play in up-optimized groups, full of unskilled players, the PCs balance themselves quite easily. My husband's first character was a Half-Orc Cleric with no armor, a club for a weapon, Endurance as his feat and skill points scattered randomly across the Character Sheet because he'd never played D&D before and didn't understand builds at all, but he became the party's game-changer in a party with a Fighter (semi-experienced D&D gamer) and a Bard (me... my first character). Anything can happen in a simple campaign as long as all the players are relatively close in skill level and the Tier chart wouldn't mean a thing in that case. So I can see where Palthera is coming from.

Of course, after getting help building my husbands Bard-of-death with 210 attacks per round, I can also see how critical that Tier system is to any DM who is building a campaign for optimizers. This is going to sound silly to some of the high-power gamers, but I can't even imagine a threat a DM can throw against something that can do 210 attacks per round that wouldn't sound like a railroad plot. I know they're out there, and if I posted "Kill my PC" and dropped the Bard's stats, I'm sure the list would go on for pages about builds that could mop the floor with him, but I'm just saying that at my skill level with the game, I couldn't imagine what such a character would be like.

[Keld Denar]

DPS doesn't measure a character's tier. Part of the greatest strength of a caster is the ability to disable, discourage, and dismember an enemy force so that his party can make the most of it.

In a recent game in my RL group, my Bard (who plays VERY similar to a sorcerer) cast a Freezing Fog, Haste, and used a Dim Door to teleport the fighter into melee range. The Freezing Fog distracted 2 of our foes for several rounds so we didn't have to deal with them. The Haste allowed us to kill the foes we were fighting faster, and the Dim Door helped significantly by placing our angry dwarf into melee range with a foe who he promptly trashed into tiny pieces with his axe.

My character didn't DEAL any damage. He allowed damage to be delt, and denied damage from our foes. That is something that non-casters can't really deliver. All they can do is damage, most of the time. If damage was REALLY the measure of power, then the ubercharger would be the highest tier of character...but he's not, he's still down at T4.

[missmvicious]

Well... DPS aside. We're all fairly equal contributors.

I build the magic items.

The Ranger does the Tracking because she can track blindly thanks to her animal companion. She also helps the Druid with hunting when we run out of food.

The Druid knows freaking everything about the rainforest we're in and basically is our Bear Grylls. He even discovered a fruit that makes arrows and darts more accurate (exists in the real world) so that the DM had to give a +1 bonus to Attack for all the Ranger's arrows that had the fibers of that fruit wrapped around it.

The Crusader kills whatever we can't damage... stupid DR and spell resistance.

The DMPC Cleric crawls out of hiding after each encounter, heals what's left of us, and offers nuggets of "wisdom" about what this most recent encounter must mean. Being as she's been cloistered away all her young life, she's as wrong as often as she is right, but dang it... that girl knows prophecies and legends. I'll give her that.

[Incriptus]

I'm new to the boards and not as versed in the whole tier system and I have my doubts sometimes but this is the way I [choose] to think about it.

You can make a Wizard/Cleric/Druid into a Melee Monster, A trap master, A Blaster, A Control, A battlefield shaper . . . Anything you put your mind to you can do, and fairly easily do any two of those jobs.

A Fighter is always going to be a fighter.

[Greenish]

Yeah, it is about as ridiculously powerful as it sounds.Well, not quite. You've only got one set of actions and one pool of HP.

You get more versatility and standing power, so it's often recommended for smaller parties to have their bases covered. But it's not like your feat rogue//duskblade would be as strong as, say, a non-gestalt druid.

[Kerrin]

Well... DPS aside. We're all fairly equal contributors.

I build the magic items.

The Ranger ...

The Druid ...

The Crusader ...

The DMPC Cleric ...
From your two posts in this thread, your games sound like fun!

[Snowbluff]

Well... DPS aside. We're all fairly equal contributors.

I build the magic items.

The Ranger does the Tracking because she can track blindly thanks to her animal companion. She also helps the Druid with hunting when we run out of food.

The Druid knows freaking everything about the rainforest we're in and basically is our Bear Grylls. He even discovered a fruit that makes arrows and darts more accurate (exists in the real world) so that the DM had to give a +1 bonus to Attack for all the Ranger's arrows that had the fibers of that fruit wrapped around it.

The Crusader kills whatever we can't damage... stupid DR and spell resistance.

The DMPC Cleric crawls out of hiding after each encounter, heals what's left of us, and offers nuggets of "wisdom" about what this most recent encounter must mean. Being as she's been cloistered away all her young life, she's as wrong as often as she is right, but dang it... that girl knows prophecies and legends. I'll give her that.

Ranger's Tracking isn't as much of a class ability as it is a way for the DM to railroad a plot. As for you and the druid not doing anything is surprising. The druid has wildshape, and you should get assay resistance and some SR no spells (orbs anyone?).

[Emmerask]

tiers refer to how powerful or versatile a class is

More accurately it refers to how powerful or versatile a class can be if build properly (or atleast build with some amount of skill).

A sorcerer who only takes blasting spells and nothing else would not count as a tier 2.

[Incriptus]

More accurately it refers to how powerful or versatile a class can be if build properly (or atleast build with some amount of skill).

A sorcerer who only takes blasting spells and nothing else would not count as a tier 2.

Or you could define it as "how many broken options" you have available ;-)

[Palthera]

I think possibly it's more about creative use of your abilities. The guy who always plays a wizard makes him a trick man. He opens doors, looks round corners, summons emergency mounts and all in all surprised me that he would always have a thing for an emergency. But he didn't deal damage or infringe on other people. His initiative would always be "I... cheer the party on encouragingly". I don't think he took one combat spell...

Perhaps we just don't take the game very seriously. They were an awesome party though, I could happily send things at them a couple of CRs above what they were supposed to handle and they'd manage every time.

But then, I think that a party who works together is better than a group of people who are all hoping to steal the show every encounter. It's probably my female pack-hunting instinct.

[Greenish]

But then, I think that a party who works together is better than a group of people who are all hoping to steal the show every encounter. It's probably my female pack-hunting instinct.Or perhaps your firm grasp of the blinking obvious. :smallamused:

[Killer Angel]

More accurately it refers to how powerful or versatile a class can be if build properly (or atleast build with some amount of skill).

A sorcerer who only takes blasting spells and nothing else would not count as a tier 2.

I would agree with you, but once i had a discussion on this, and someone said that the class is still T2 (edit: 'cause tiers were made for classes, not builds)... the tier system works on a similar level of optimization (or lack of): in this way, the hypothetical blasting sorcerer will still be T2, because the fighter will be a dual fighting dude with 2 different weapons, 2 weap. focus feats, improved toughness and so on...

I don't know. Such a reasoning works if the tier system is merely a measurement of power gap, but if we look also at the available options, then the blaster sorcerer build, loses his advantage.

[Siosilvar]

More accurately it refers to how powerful or versatile a class can be if build properly (or atleast build with some amount of skill).

A sorcerer who only takes blasting spells and nothing else would not count as a tier 2.

Well, it probably would still be tier 2 - if you compared it to, say, a fighter that takes multiple instances of Weapon Focus, which is about equivalent to taking a handful of damage-only Reflex half spells.

Ultimately, tiers are how many different things you can do, not necessarily how many ways you can do the same thing. For example, a fighter has a lot of ways to be good at combat... but that's almost everything it can do, and it basically has to pick one or two to be good at them, so it's tier 5. A warblade has a lot of combat flexibility as well, but also has a handful of skills and the maneuvers can do some things out-of-combat as well, so it's tier 3. A sorcerer can, if you choose the right spells, be good at anything, so it's tier 2. A wizard can, if you choose the right spells (and use scrolls), be good at everything, so it's tier 1.

Note that all of those rely on choosing the right options; tiers are a measure of capability, not a measure of absolute power. If you choose a handful of options to do the same thing (for instance, a sorcerer with a bunch of fire-damage reflex-half spells), then you're not going to be tier 1-2.

In a lot of games, the tiers never come into play. In other games, knowing the tier system can help you pick a character that won't get overshadowed by other party members and won't overshadow the same.

[missmvicious]

From your two posts in this thread, your games sound like fun!

It's the best campaign I've ever been in. Nothing about it (except the character building process, and the DM had a fair reason) has felt railroaded. The adventure is intense, the plot confounding, and the world is lavishly detailed.

I only have two complaints about the whole thing, and even then... it's just digging for something to gripe about:

1. The DM is a little too generous with role-playing XP. We level up almost every session... so it's really hard to get comfortable with a character be she suddenly wakes up with new abilities.

2. Everything we're fighting is resistant or immune to stuff. Technically, it's our fault for not being prepared... we were given more than enough warning, told this would be and Abyssal heavy campaign, and were given free MW equipment and a weekly paycheck at L1 to build off of (+ our starting GP) and none of us... not a single one, thought to purchase a cold iron weapon and maybe some Bless Weapon scrolls/oils.

We're learning quickly that the DM takes a completely neutral position on our fates. He won't hold our hand and protect us from death, nor is he "out to get us." So we're starting to play a little smart, especially since the Crusader player isn't always here, and we don't know how to use his character, so he's sort of in "Bruce Banner" mode when he's not there and one of us as to NPC him.

[Paul H]

Hi

Thanks to Palthera for bringing this up. Often wondered what they meant.

So, Pathfinder Magus Tier 1. Synthesist (Summoner Archetype) Tier 1+?

Thanks
Paul H

[Greenish]

So, Pathfinder Magus Tier 1. Synthesist (Summoner Archetype) Tier 1+?Offhand, magus and summoner are medium casters, so tier 3. Synthesist might bring the latter to tier 2, from what I've heard.

[Paul H]

Hi

Yes, both max out with lv l6 spells, but they both get some spells 'early', so some 9th lvl spells are just 6th for them.

Magus is Ftr/Mage mix, with both spells & melee capability, plus some good skills, and other good ablities (spell recall, etc)

Synthesist can do most things. Spend one evolution point to add +8 as racial mod to any skill, for instance. Plus their physical mods, stats. fly, breath weapon, etc. Only real weakness is susceptibity to banish spells.

But back on point - thanks for explaining Tiers and Gestalt

Paul H

[JaronK]

The tiers are talking about mechanical abilities and possibilities... obviously if you don't actually use the full power of the strong tier classes, things should stay nice and balanced. Likewise, most DMs work with the weaker tier classes, doing things like making sure there's always at least one melee fight per session for the Fighter to shine in.

JaronK

[Slipperychicken]

(d6 from factotum)

Factotums (Factoti?) get a d8. Improves on Wizard Hit die (d4) by 2/level, assuming average rolls

[Manateee]

Tiers by Jaron's categorizations have never been useful for me, but they've been useful for me to recognize - if only for terminology.

Eg. "Tier 1" is more succinct than "Prepared casters with functionally bottomless spells known."
And "Tier 6" is more succinct than "Classes that don't do anything."

[Wings of Peace]

More accurately it refers to how powerful or versatile a class can be if build properly (or atleast build with some amount of skill).

This is moderately incorrect but on the right track. The tier system assumes that each of the classes are being played with equal amounts of skill and optimization when making comparisons.

[Coidzor]

And now that I know them, I do not think I will ever use them. I have never noticed, over my campaign, the wizard being more useful than the rogue and in a current campaign, although we have a sorceror and a cleric, I miss not having a rogue with a burning passion every time we set off a trap or are confronted by a locked door/treasure chest.

...One doesn't really "use" the Tier System, per se. :smallconfused:

In fact, the Tier System even accounts for what you've just said, which is that it doesn't really take into account playstyle, it takes into account raw potential and ability to live up to as much of that potential at once as possible.


I think possibly it's more about creative use of your abilities. The guy who always plays a wizard makes him a trick man. He opens doors, looks round corners, summons emergency mounts and all in all surprised me that he would always have a thing for an emergency. But he didn't deal damage or infringe on other people. His initiative would always be "I... cheer the party on encouragingly". I don't think he took one combat spell...

...You still don't seem to be grokking it then. The Wizard is the enabler. You're buying into the false paradigm that damage is the end-all, be-all metric of character worth AND thinking that just because someone can render someone else superfluous that they should when instead their efforts would be better suited to minding the gaps as that wizard seems to have done.

Though he does seem to have somehow failed in his homework on battlefield control for all of his apparent reading up on utility casting. :smallconfused:


But then, I think that a party who works together is better than a group of people who are all hoping to steal the show every encounter. It's probably my female pack-hunting instinct.

...What does that have to do with the topic of this thread? :smallconfused: That's just patently obvious. The God Wizard (http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/Treantmonk%27s_guide_to_wizards:_Being_a_God) is still a team player. Actually even more of one, since that's the best investment of his abilities.


The Ranger does the Tracking because she can track blindly thanks to her animal companion. She also helps the Druid with hunting when we run out of food.

Ah, yes, Tracking, the railroading tool disguised as a class feature that we all fell for.

And you guys really have the stomach to handle the minutia of gathering rations in non-survival situations? :smallconfused:

There's really no reason to do that unless you're actually having an adventure of going on a hunting trip. You have a cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm). And a wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm). You're never going hungry or lacking for tasty food again, so there's no real way for it to be a survival situation. And, heck, even the cleric/crusader (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/purifyFoodAndDrink.htm) can help make it so you don't have to worry about rations.



So we're starting to play a little smart, especially since the Crusader player isn't always here, and we don't know how to use his character, so he's sort of in "Bruce Banner" mode when he's not there and one of us as to NPC him.

You can fairly easily learn his maneuvers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) or at least have them on hand. He shouldn't have all that many and their applications are generally straight forward, especially since crusaders get them handed to them as rounds of combat go on and then things roll back over.


Or you could define it as "how many broken options" you have available ;-)

Then there'd only be 3, maybe 4 tiers. With a footnote for Truenamer for being broken in the opposite direction.

[missmvicious]

[SPOILER]
Ah, yes, Tracking, the railroading tool disguised as a class feature that we all fell for.

And you guys really have the stomach to handle the minutia of gathering rations in non-survival situations? :smallconfused:


I'm a little embarrassed because this thread isn't supposed to be about my campaign.

Tracking: We actually use it to track things... not just to follow a monster we're looking for that will give us a convenient plot hook. In fact, we've never used Track to follow a plot hook. Our Ranger has a medium viper which can track by scent, which has been useful in a rainforest that has trackless terrain, low-light, rain, and mist hindering our sight and movement. Regardless, I'm married to the DM, and I know he hates railroaded plots more than any of us. He never makes us do anything we don't want to do. He just throws some options (hooks) our way and waits for us to make a decision. Most of the time he has anticipated our decisions well enough and we have an incredible session. Sometimes he has to adjourn the session early to re-tool his campaign a bit for us. But he comes back the next week ready for more surprise. The only thing he railroaded was character creation. It's a military campaign in a theocratic society, and we were all pigeon-holed into L1 Human Lawful devotees of Wee Jas. He read us the backstory when he requested this, and we all agreed that it made sense to the plot, and he even said that if someone absolutely didn't want to play that specific a character, he'd try to work with us.

Hunting: The Druid and Ranger don't just come back with food. The entire forest is enchanted, and everything is up for grabs. The Ranger and Druid both take a Native American approach to hunting. After the kill (if they're indeed hunting animals this time), they thank the animal for its provision and promise not to waste a single bit. And we don't. Bones, teeth, hair, entrails, meat... even the blood. It all goes to some kind of use, either magical or mundane. If the Druid or the Ranger does their research, which they started to after the first time the DM showed them where online to find valuable information about wilderness survival, one animal can provide clothing, weapons, shelter, food, medicine, armor, and (DM researched this) magical/alchemical components. They also come back with moss, fruits, berries, leaves, herbs, flowers and seeds, all of which Detect Magic quickly reveals can do some pretty interesting things. Sure, our Clerics can create food and water... but why bother, when by taking a little break from fighting demons (while I figure out which magical item I should create next) they can come back with all that? Save that spell slot for something else. Pish.

The point was... we're not that great at D&D. We love the game, but most of us don't have time or dedication to focus on greater build mechanics. This is the first campaign that we have really taken RAW seriously. Most of the time, with previous DMs, the DM would mostly just wing it... house-ruling like it's going out of style. So we don't even have a strong grasp of game mechanics either. And because of that, the Tier system doesn't mean jack. Get at least semi-competent at gameplay, and sure, Tiers are pretty handy. But if you run low-power, novice-heavy games full of people who still aren't entirely sure what the difference is between a Longbow and a Composite Longbow (seriously... how does that work?) then any class will find a niche in the group... except a Monk... oh Wee Jas... except a Monk. Can't even beat up a stupid wolverine...

[Helldog]

What's with the color? :smallconfused:

[Yahzi]

I have never noticed, over my campaign, the wizard being more useful than the rogue
Then your wizard is asleep. :smallbiggrin:

I never understood the logic behind gestalt. It just seems like a way to make the PC more powerful. Why not just give them a class level of Genie and let them make a wish every single round? /shrug

[missmvicious]

What's with the color? :smallconfused:

:smallfrown:

It matches my avi. Why?

[motoko's ghost]

:smallfrown:

It matches my avi. Why?

It's different. I quite like it though, its distinctive.:smallsmile:

[Curious]

So, Pathfinder Magus Tier 1. Synthesist (Summoner Archetype) Tier 1+?

Magus, tier 3. Summoner, tier 2, including Synthesist.

[motoko's ghost]

Hi

Thanks to Palthera for bringing this up. Often wondered what they meant.

So, Pathfinder Magus Tier 1. Synthesist (Summoner Archetype) Tier 1+?

Thanks
Paul H

Tier 1(+/-) are rather obscure and generally refer to prestige classes, i.e a character with a good PrC that enhances the abilities of a tier 1 class would be 1+, while a poor one would be 1-

[Big Fau]

What's with the color? :smallconfused:

You can set the default in your control panel last I checked. Some use it as a means of distinguishing their posts from the posts of others at a glance, or to add style to a post and provide a unique calling card, so to speak.

[missmvicious]

It's different. I quite like it though, its distinctive.:smallsmile:

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[motoko's ghost]

You can set the default in your control panel last I checked. Some use it as a means of distinguishing their posts from the posts of others at a glance, or to add style to a post and provide a unique calling card, so to speak.

Wait, how?
I cant seem to find anything lie that, it just keeps asking if I want to change my sig/avatar.

[Helldog]

:smallfrown:

It matches my avi. Why?
It's irritating.

[motoko's ghost]

It's irritating.

That's impossible! its purple!:smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

:smallfrown:

It matches my avi. Why?
I think you're getting all the fuss because it's exceedingly uncommon on these boards. I know other places where it's normal for everyone to have special fonts and colours; I know others where most are default but a decent minority use them. But here, I don't think I can remember any regular who's done that consistently, not in the last few years that I've seen. It's just not a part of GitP culture. We often use colour for in-character dialogue in the play-by-post games, but that's it.

That said, I don't think the colour's a problem. The font was a little much, but I'm not going to raise a fuss about the purple. If it means a lot to you keep using it, just be aware that it's quite unusual here.

[Prime32]

The power of a high tier is their way to change the type of story being told (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoryBreakerPower) (Infiltration? Invisibility. Diplomatic mission? Dominate person. Murder mystery? Raise dead). Gandalf is an obvious archetype for D&D wizards to follow, but his abilities have barely any resemblance to theirs (he's much closer to a paladin).

I've made note of what effects spells like mind blank and detect thoughts would have on the plot of LotR, but if Gandalf was a D&D wizard then completing the quest would be a matter of preparing greater teleport in the morning.

That's right. For low-tiers destroying the One Ring takes a large team months of effort, after which every member is either dead or changed forever. For a Tier 1 it takes 6 seconds.


EDIT: The TVTropes page for Story Breaker Power gives a list of powers which make a character extremely difficult to challenge. Tier 1s have every power on the list.

[Big Fau]

Wait, how?
I cant seem to find anything lie that, it just keeps asking if I want to change my sig/avatar.

Hmm, can't find it myself. I was under the assumption that all vBulletin forums had it built into the options panel, but I guess they disabled the plugin for it.

[Coidzor]

I never understood the logic behind gestalt. It just seems like a way to make the PC more powerful. Why not just give them a class level of Genie and let them make a wish every single round? /shrug

Power gradients, of course. :smallconfused:

[Manateee]

I never understood the logic behind gestalt. It just seems like a way to make the PC more powerful. Why not just give them a class level of Genie and let them make a wish every single round? /shrug
Optimization is a game of its own. Gestalt can add another dimension to that game.

Alternatively, optimization might not be a game some groups enjoy. Gestalt allows them to make effective Fighter/Wizards (or whatever) without dumpster-diving splats.


It matches my avi. Why?
FWIW, I skip forum posts written in nonstandard fonts or colors. They seems to tag posters who want to stand out as special snowflakes as opposed to posters who have anything to say.

From the generally positive responses your posts have gotten, that might not be the case here, but IME, it's usually a useful indicator.

[horseboy]

But if you run low-power, novice-heavy games full of people who still aren't entirely sure what the difference is between a Longbow and a Composite Longbow (seriously... how does that work?)
Composite bows are made in layers. Wood/bone/wood or wood/metal/horn, or wood/bone/metal or, well you get the idea. Their combined strengths make it as powerful as one long lever (bow) in a shorter frame, making it easier to use while mounted or keeping it from getting stuck in brush as you move through or just because there's no good wood that appears in that size in that area.

[missmvicious]

I think you're getting all the fuss because it's exceedingly uncommon on these boards. -snip-

That makes sense. I toned down the font and size, at least, when other members were complaining about eye-strain headaches. But I'm willing to suffer the few slings and arrows that come from having the purple color. I get at least twice as many compliments as complaints about it, anyway. So as long as the mods don't mind, I'm glad I can express myself. :smallbiggrin:

BTW, I read your Druid rant to our current campaign's Druid. He said that made a lot of sense to him. A former 4e DM in our group actually told him to be a Druid for this 3.5 campaign we're in, even though he was new to D&D. He got the same lecture from 4EDM (keeping things anonymous so as not to hurt feelings, in case he's reading) about how unstoppable and noobieproof the Druid was. He still hasn't figured the character out. He says he regretted the decision early on, and still kind of wished he'd picked something easier, like a Rogue or Fighter, but he's starting to get the hang of it, and our Crusader character, when he's in, is actually giving him a lot of advice, which is helping a lot. I just thought I'd thank you for your post. It's helpful to have a group opinion corroborated by someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

[missmvicious]

Composite bows are made in layers. Wood/bone/wood or wood/metal/horn, or wood/bone/metal or, well you get the idea. Their combined strengths make it as powerful as one long lever (bow) in a shorter frame, making it easier to use while mounted or keeping it from getting stuck in brush as you move through or just because there's no good wood that appears in that size in that area.

I'm starting to hijack this thread... I guess the OP's question has been answered thoroughly enough, so I suppose I don't feel guilty.

Mkay... but does that mean you use STR for attack, or do you add STR to your DEX for your attack?

If that's the case, we need to get our Ranger a Composite Bow. She's got 15 STR and 17 DEX. If the bonuses combine, then that's a quick +5 to attack, not counting MW and magic bonuses.

[Coidzor]

I'm starting to hijack this thread... I guess the OP's question has been answered thoroughly enough, so I suppose I don't feel guilty.

Mkay... but does that mean you use STR for attack, or do you add STR to your DEX for your attack?

If that's the case, we need to get our Ranger a Composite Bow. She's got 15 STR and 17 DEX. If the bonuses combine, then that's a quick +5 to attack, not counting MW and magic bonuses.

No, mundanes can't have nice things and neither can ranged characters, as you've probably noticed when you've come across things that have DR that the archer cannot just bypass and obviate. You get Dex to hit and strength to damage unlike a regular longbow which gets dex to hit and zilch to damage.

[golem1972]

All bows use your dexterity modifier as a bonus or penalty to hit.

Composite bows give you the chance to purchase the ability to add your strength modifier to damage. It costs 100gp per +1 strength bonus.

If the bow has a higher strength mod to damage than the archer, then the archer takes a penalty to their ranged attack roll. If your strength mod is higher than the bows, you do not receive a penalty (you're damage bonus is limited by the bow though) .

It is possible to change many of these things through feats, class features, and magic.

[missmvicious]

Wha-? You don't add anything to a Longbow's damage?

We've been doing it wrong then. :smalleek: The DM hasn't caught the error, but I should probably break the awful news to our Ranger, since we're stocking up on new equipment soon.

We've been adding DEX to her DMG all along. It was one of those rules I was told in my virgin session that I just assumed was the rule. Now that I look it up, I can see the truth:

PHB, pg 134:
A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks made with a
bow that is not a composite bow.

That sucks. Our Ranger is the newest Player in our group, and she's already disappointed with how useless her character is in a fight against Abyssals. I shouldn't have talked her into the bow. I should've just let her go TWF with Longsword and Dagger like she wanted.

I've got to make this right. I'm going to buy her the best magic Composite Bow I can afford. My PCs family is loaded, so I should be able to borrow some GP to get her something that'll really tear through Abyssal defenses.

[DoctorGlock]

We've been adding DEX to her DMG all along. It was one of those rules I was told in my virgin session that I just assumed was the rule. Now that I look it up, I can see the truth:]

To be fair that's really how it should be done and there are some feats out there that add dex to bow damage. 3.5 as it stands though has a severe hate on for archery unless you are an ardent spamming dissolving arrows from half a mile away.

It's certainly not the worst first impression/misrule you can make though. I originally thought evasion was a feat with 13 dex prereq. I dont know how.. Everyone at the table ended up grabbing it.

Regular ranger or mystic ranger? If mystic there are some okay support spells including a level 1 swift action spells that makes the next ranged attack auto crit. Hunter's mercy or something like that.

If it isn't too late, you might want to just switch to Legend. It really is that much better.

[meto30]

Wha-? You don't add anything to a Longbow's damage?

We've been doing it wrong then. :smalleek: The DM hasn't caught the error, but I should probably break the awful news to our Ranger, since we're stocking up on new equipment soon.

We've been adding DEX to her DMG all along. It was one of those rules I was told in my virgin session that I just assumed was the rule. Now that I look it up, I can see the truth:

PHB, pg 134:
A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on attacks made with a
bow that is not a composite bow.

That sucks. Our Ranger is the newest Player in our group, and she's already disappointed with how useless her character is in a fight against Abyssals. I shouldn't have talked her into the bow. I should've just let her go TWF with Longsword and Dagger like she wanted.

I've got to make this right. I'm going to buy her the best magic Composite Bow I can afford. My PCs family is loaded, so I should be able to borrow some GP to get her something that'll really tear through Abyssal defenses.

I understand exactly what you mean. But don't disparage yourself yet, because from the impression I'm being given from the bits you tell us about your campaign, it is one of the most perfect campaigns ever played (or being played) in the entire world. Everyone is happy, and enjoying their time. Isn't this why we play games? :smallcool:

The fact that you assumed different and was surprised when you found out dexterity doesn't apply to dmg on bows, well, let's just say things could've been worse. I am a DM managing a campaign in Korea. In case you don't know my country, here nearly every single adult male between ages 20 and 40 had played or is still playing MMORPGs(Massively Multiplyer Online Role Playing Games, or somthing similar). And in nearly every single one of the said games, DEX or similar attribute is very heavily related to ranged dmg. That has caused every single player of mine to mistake things otherwise at the beginning of the game, and one even tried to go lawyer with me to convince me to allow him to add DEX to dmg until I pulled rule zero and silenced him.

That said, I too think DEX should apply to bow dmg. And I think spot distance penalty scales way to fast. But rules are rules :smallannoyed:

[missmvicious]

Regular Ranger. This is her first time to play any role-playing fantasy ever, so I suggested she keep it simple. She's never even played an RPG video game, before, though she loves the fantasy genre and devours Dragonlance novels.

I thought Ranger would be a nice touch, since it gently combines all the basic aspects of D&D: melee/ranged combat, skill challenges, animal companions, and spell casting. That way, she could build her character to whatever flavor suited her and she would have a better idea what kind of player she'd want to be next time. For instance, she's starting to play a sexy, charismatic diplomancer, who likes to keep an odd array of pets around... a viper and a mule being the first two so far. So... maybe I'm thinking Bard for her next build. But that's thinking way ahead. This campaign is supposed to take us beyond epic, so we have time.

And what's this Legend thing I keep hearing about? I don't know if any of us have the stomach to learn another rule set. Honestly, 3.5 in RAW has been a chore, only to find out that the books are being torn from the shelves and replaced with 4E... only to find out that 5E may be replacing that in 2012. Sigh.

[DoctorGlock]

And what's this Legend thing I keep hearing about? I don't know if any of us have the stomach to learn another rule set. Honestly, 3.5 in RAW has been a chore, only to find out that the books are being torn from the shelves and replaced with 4E... only to find out that 5E may be replacing that in 2012. Sigh.

Legend is a replacement to 3.5 made on this very board by the best minds in the field of optimization. The end result is a balanced product where all classes get cool stuff. The rules are similar enough to 3.5 to pick up very fast and everyone gets actual options. It's also somewhat simpler and stresses a more narrativist approach than RAW approach. Buying the game gives all proceeds to sick children. Buying the game is until the 31st on a donate whatever you want basis, but the recommended amount is 10.

[Darthteej]

Man, glad I read this whole thing through, I thought it was gonna be ANOTHER 9 page tier thread.

[Taelas]

Not everyone thinks Legend is worth it. I've only taken a cursory glance at it, but nothing I saw appealed to me.

[Laniius]

To elaborate on this point the tiers are an entirely community made rating system of each individual class' versatility and therefore problem solving ability.

It's important to remember that the tier system addresses problem solving ability and not just raw combat power. Though in casual discussion you might witness the two terms used interchangeably the distinction is important because combat is only one type of problem that adventurers might need to solve.

And tiers aren't the same for every group. For instance, my group tends to vehemently disagree with the tier list on many occasions because we basically just do combat. Also, no-one (aside from myself; I can't seem to get that munchkin off my back) optimizes in my group.

[Coidzor]

And tiers aren't the same for every group. For instance, my group tends to vehemently disagree with the tier list on many occasions because we basically just do combat. Also, no-one (aside from myself; I can't seem to get that munchkin off my back) optimizes in my group.

You disagree with the assessment when the assessment tells you how it's assessing them in more than one sphere of the game because you only incorporate one sphere of the game when you play. :smallconfused: Why do that? The Tier system isn't saying Only play Tier X and never play Tier Y (except for the Truenamer, but then, most people who know much of it say not to mess with that. Takes away your ability to taste ice cream, they say.)

Further, the tier system explicitly states that this it is ranked using a normalized level of optimization across the classes, so no one "optimizing" is irrelevant.

[sonofzeal]

And tiers aren't the same for every group. For instance, my group tends to vehemently disagree with the tier list on many occasions because we basically just do combat. Also, no-one (aside from myself; I can't seem to get that munchkin off my back) optimizes in my group.
If nobody optimizes, then that doesn't necessarily mean the Tiers are any different. However, players that don't optimize may not realize what different classes are capable of.

Take Wizards. A low-op player may pick bad spells, but it's entirely feasible for them to take a few good spells too. They may not realize it, but they still have the potential to break the campaign. A low-op Wizard might still take Black Tentacles, Knock, Teleport, Charm Person, or a whole host of others. There are any number of ways they could completely go off the DM's rails if they had the inclination to.

Now, a low-op player may not have that inclination. And that's fine. But their Wizard is still far more likely to break the campaign than the Rogue is, and the Rogue is far more likely to break it than the Monk is. That's what the Tier system measures. And it works at low levels of optimization. Your group just isn't seeing it because of the mindset they're approaching with, not because it isn't there or because of the style of the campaign or because of the optimization level. It's just an issue of mindset.

[Greenish]

I shouldn't have talked her into the bow. I should've just let her go TWF with Longsword and Dagger like she wanted.TWF isn't any better. It's probably worse, in fact.

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, if you do something like a swift hunter build, ranged can actually be pretty good. It's extremely hard to make TWF good, though.