Azazel vs Iceman [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Tyndmyr

2011-12-23, 11:46 AM

This was the result of a discussion with coworkers...I'll make no secret of the fact that I'm on Azazel's side.

Rules: Has to be a straight up fight. Bampf in and stab while sleeping does not count.

As per the comic powers, we'll assume both are fully powered up(for those unfamiliar with them, wiki lists both sets of powers quite well).

Victory is defined as a kill, permanent imprisonment, etc. Merely running away is insufficient.

Power Breakdown:
Azazel: Immortal, world class swordsman, perfect teleportation without limit(including inter-planar), can disguise appearance, paralyzing/disintegrating rays, black magic. Also, telepathy to other demons.

Iceman: Immunity to cold, ice armored body, body takes form of organic ice, can create ice from water in proximity to him, as well as freeze other things nearby due to lowering temperature. Can travel as liquid, solid, or gas water, though shifting takes notable energy. Can heal organic ice form with access to water. Also, can grow body beyond normal size with access to sufficient water.

Secondary scenario: Movie Iceman vs Movie Azazel(powers as per the Xmen movies).

Friv

2011-12-23, 02:31 PM

IIRC, Comic Azazel was designed to be a reasonable threat for the entire X-Men team, and thus would flatten Iceman. Iceman is powerful, but not that powerful.

Movie-wise, it would be a curbstomp. Movie Iceman just isn't that powerful yet, and we have no way of knowing if he ever would be. Meanwhile, movie-Azazel was a terror. He teleports over, grabs Bobby, hops into the sky, and Bobby is now dead because he doesn't have enhanced agility to stop Azzie from letting go.

Bastian Weaver

2011-12-23, 03:09 PM

Oh please. Iceman was created by Stan the Man Lee.
Azazel was created by Chuck Austen.
Nuff said.

Obrysii

2011-12-23, 03:09 PM

Not too familiar with them, but isn't Iceman an Omega-level mutant later on? Wouldn't that sort of imply he'd win?

Tyndmyr

2011-12-23, 03:09 PM

Oh please. Iceman was created by Stan the Man Lee.
Azazel was created by Chuck Austen.
Nuff said.

I don't get it. So...which one would win in a fight?

Bastian Weaver

2011-12-23, 03:15 PM

I say Iceman. And the main reason is, of course, that Stan Lee and his creations are cool, and Chuck Austen and his creations are the opposite of cool. I mean, really... hello, I'm Azazel, I went to Earth and fathered multiple teleporters in order to be able to go to Earth? Nightcrawler is a demon, and Warren Worthington III is an angel? Come on.
Also, I doubt there's going to be a "Mammomax: The Movie" anytime soon...
Sorry. Back to the question.
During the Draco arc (which was when Azazel was introduced) Iceman has demonstrated an ability to drain water from his opponent's body, instantly killing one of Azazel's rough and tough minions and restoring his own body pretty much from scratch.
I say Azazel goes down.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-23, 03:24 PM

Not too familiar with them, but isn't Iceman an Omega-level mutant later on? Wouldn't that sort of imply he'd win?

Omega-level people don't win all fights. More to the point, Iceman has never actually used powers on par with Omega level people...he'd get utterly smoked against any of them I can think of.

Seraph

2011-12-23, 07:06 PM

Omega-level people don't win all fights. More to the point, Iceman has never actually used powers on par with Omega level people...he'd get utterly smoked against any of them I can think of.

as I understand it, Iceman's qualification as an Omega level has more to do with how broad his powers theoretically are than how strong he is in a straight fight.

Soras Teva Gee

2011-12-23, 07:22 PM

I don't get it. So...which one would win in a fight?

One is an original X-man if not terribly creative in concept... the other is a filthy piece of discontinuity from a patently disgusting and offensive time in X-men that makes me nostalgic for the bad old days of Xorneto "mad old terrorist ****" and drug addicted Nazi.

So Iceman wins by virtue of his opponent not ever existing.

Bastian Weaver

2011-12-23, 07:40 PM

My thoughts exactly.

Traab

2011-12-23, 10:26 PM

shadow_archmagi

2011-12-23, 10:34 PM

Stan 'The Man' Lee?

Look upon his works and despair, ye mighty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_gu4pfFeLQ)

chiasaur11

2011-12-24, 03:52 AM

Stan 'The Man' Lee?

Look upon his works and despair, ye mighty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_gu4pfFeLQ)

Still better than any given Chuck Austen comic.

(More seriously, the man is a living legend for a reason. I mean, not downplaying either Jack Kirby, or Stan's tendency to overhype himself ["Spider-Man didn't have a sidekick, but he couldn't talk to himself aloud all the time. That's why I invented thought balloons" "I decided Spider-Man shouldn't be an adult, but shouldn't be a kid either. That's when I invented teenagers." "Back in WWII, I was working at Marvel when I decided, you know what, there should be countries not run by Hitler. That's why I invented the Allies."] but he wrote "This Man, This Monster". If it was all he did, he'd still deserve cameos in every Marvel movie ever.)

Dr.Epic

2011-12-24, 05:32 AM

Azazel

If he's immortal he's just gonna keep fighting. Locking him away won't do anything because it's just like time out. He can escape and the fight will just resume.

Devonix

2011-12-24, 09:08 AM

Azazel

If he's immortal he's just gonna keep fighting. Locking him away won't do anything because it's just like time out. He can escape and the fight will just resume.

If you really want to do a waiting game Iceman is immortal as well as long as he stays in Iceform and he doesn't have to change out of it except when he wants to. They can both wait for eternity

Devonix

2011-12-24, 09:09 AM

Though I originaly thought this was Aquaman vs Iceman. in which case Aquaman curbstomps Bobby

Soras Teva Gee

2011-12-24, 09:35 AM

Bastian Weaver

2011-12-24, 11:28 AM

Devonix, actually, Iceman did fight against Aquaman during All Access. Aquaman was losing badly until Green Lantern arrived to help him.

The Glyphstone

2011-12-24, 11:31 AM

So, is this a fight between the characters, or a fight between their creators/writers? A lot of the comments seem to think the latter, but I don't think Stan Lee would last very long in a fistfight at this point.

Zaydos

2011-12-24, 11:37 AM

Azazel takes an early advantage, using his disintegration bolts (does he actually have those, I haven't read the X-Men outside of the Essentials for the most part, and of the 3 wikis I visited only one listed that as one of his powers) to hurt Iceman but being made of ice Iceman easily recovers. Finally, though, Iceman just freezes everything making it impossible for Azazel to get good footing. When the demon-esque mutant slips for a second Iceman starts freezing him. As Azazel slows down his doom is ensured.

You have to remember this is a stand-up fight; not "who would kill" and not an assassination where Teleportation becomes much more useful. Azazel has bolts and dodging, Ice-Man can reduce things to absolute 0, and seemingly reverse entropy.

Traab

2011-12-24, 11:43 AM

Agreed. The worst part for azazel is, he doesnt dare get in close combat with iceman due to taking incidental damage just from being too close to a mobile ice storm. Just the radiant cold would be enough to cause serious damage to him, let alone actually trying to TOUCH iceman. Remember that scene in xmen 2 when nightcrawler was trapped in that ice attack storm was using to stop strykers son? Thats what would be happening to azazel. Its a battle of attrition imo, and iceman has the edge.

Devonix

2011-12-24, 11:58 AM

Devonix, actually, Iceman did fight against Aquaman during All Access. Aquaman was losing badly until Green Lantern arrived to help him.

did aquaman at any poinit use his water elemental control abilities? aka absorbing and controlling water. Turning it from one form to another? Draining all the ice from Iceman is a pretty quick way to remove him from a fight.

The Glyphstone

2011-12-24, 12:03 PM

did aquaman at any poinit use his water elemental control abilities? aka absorbing and controlling water. Turning it from one form to another? Draining all the ice from Iceman is a pretty quick way to remove him from a fight.

Didn't someone above mention Iceman can drain water from his opponents/surroundings to replenish his ice? Seems like that wouldn't be a quick defeat so much as a never ending tug-of-war, or boil down to whose elemental control was more powerful.

Bastian Weaver

2011-12-24, 12:07 PM

Devonix, yes, he did, but only when GL used his power ring to melt the ice Bobby was using. Ice turned into water, which invigorated Aquaman and gave him the edge. Perhaps he was unable to control Bobby's ice directly for some reason, or maybe Bobby's control was stronger.
Glyphstone, at that moment Iceman wasn't as powerful as he is now, he couldn't turn his body into ice yet.

Devonix

2011-12-24, 12:15 PM

leafman

2011-12-25, 12:13 AM

How does Azazel lose in this fight? By the parameters set in the OP victory is assumed when one combatant is dead, imprisoned, or otherwise completely incapacitated. The OP also states that Azazel is immortal (can't be killed) and has perfect teleportation (can't be imprisoned). Two of the win conditions Azazel is immune to, so that would only leave incapacitation, which with his ability to teleport it would seem he could easily dodge any attack. The only way I can see Azazel losing is stupidity on his part or or having some sort of cool down timer on his teleport.
It doesn't mean Azazel will win, but it seems the best possible outcome for Iceman is that it will end in a draw.

Xondoure

2011-12-25, 03:25 AM

It's a tough one. Azazel has teleportation which is always fun but I don't see how useful it would be against someone without any real weak points. I'd say Iceman wins because he's just so much cooler.

:smallcool:

YEEEEAAAAAAAAH

Coidzor

2011-12-25, 03:42 AM

Hmph, dropping iceman fails due to his ability to create ice slides to control his fall. Meanwhile, azzy takes some nasty frostbite damage just from grabbing hold of the human torch's polar (heh heh) opposite.

He can leave and go get gloves before Iceman can react. :smallconfused:

Because unless he can become so cold that being in line of sight of him is basically death for all organic life as soon as he wills it... We got stuff that can be used to handle him.

Assuming Azazel can teleport with others as seems to be taken as a given, that is.

If people want to go with this... well Bobby Drake still wins because at this point he's essentially an Ice Elemental with a bit of Water Elemental thrown in. Punching his head off will not kill him, any more then it would kill a block of ice. He was apparently recently reduced to water vapor and survived.

Steal space suit. Grab. Drop by sun. Win in the space of, what, 3 seconds plus the time it takes to get dressed in a space suit/assemble one and then teleport inside of it. :smallconfused:

The fact that forcing the other to run away, even temporarily, does not result in one side winning means that the context continues. This gives a slightly greater advantage to Azazel, as it can be used to obligate Iceman to leave a sessile, secure form and assume a more tractable, mobile form.

It also means that Azazel has access to any and all tools he could possibly need.

Bastian Weaver

2011-12-25, 05:46 AM

Devonix

2011-12-25, 07:32 AM

[QUOTE=Coidzor;12428954]He can leave and go get gloves before Iceman can react. :smallconfused:

Because unless he can become so cold that being in line of sight of him is basically death for all organic life as soon as he wills it... We got stuff that can be used to handle him.

Actually YES Yes he can be so cold that its impossible to even get near him without every cell in your body freezing. Its just that he's... you know not a mass murderer.

Iceman's capable of completely stopping nuclear reactions. Ok you teleport him to the sun. Well to do that you need to touch him. Touching Iceman is pretty much a death sentence in this type of fight. Bringing him into space in ice form doesn't hurt him. and Iceman is IMMUNE to heat. He's gone up against fire elementals and obbliterated them. He's fought in Hell. Iceman pushing himself can turn off the Sun.

Traab

2011-12-25, 08:12 AM

He can leave and go get gloves before Iceman can react. :smallconfused:

Because unless he can become so cold that being in line of sight of him is basically death for all organic life as soon as he wills it... We got stuff that can be used to handle him.

Assuming Azazel can teleport with others as seems to be taken as a given, that is.

Steal space suit. Grab. Drop by sun. Win in the space of, what, 3 seconds plus the time it takes to get dressed in a space suit/assemble one and then teleport inside of it. :smallconfused:

The fact that forcing the other to run away, even temporarily, does not result in one side winning means that the context continues. This gives a slightly greater advantage to Azazel, as it can be used to obligate Iceman to leave a sessile, secure form and assume a more tractable, mobile form.

It also means that Azazel has access to any and all tools he could possibly need.

Iceman isnt just a talking ice cube, as was said, he basically is the exact opposite of the human torch, he can directly effect the temperature of the area around him to instantly dangerous levels. Only in his case he freezes you instead of making your hair ignite if you get too close. Gloves wont help. Azazel cannot get too close to iceman, not even for a moment or two. Every time he gets too close or touches him, some part of him will be frostbitten, and he will be that much more debilitated. That turns this to a range game.

Devonix

2011-12-25, 08:45 AM

Iceman isnt just a talking ice cube, as was said, he basically is the exact opposite of the human torch, he can directly effect the temperature of the area around him to instantly dangerous levels. Only in his case he freezes you instead of making your hair ignite if you get too close. Gloves wont help. Azazel cannot get too close to iceman, not even for a moment or two. Every time he gets too close or touches him, some part of him will be frostbitten, and he will be that much more debilitated. That turns this to a range game.

Iceman in a team is dangerous but ha a severe handicap in that he can't use his full powers without harming his team mates. In a one on one battle those limits don't apply and he is litterally a walking engine of global destruction.

Starbuck_II

2011-12-25, 04:01 PM

Though I originaly thought this was Aquaman vs Iceman. in which case Aquaman curbstomps Bobby

Only because Aquaman can call forth Cthulhu (yes, he controls any creature in the water even non-native ones).

shadow_archmagi

2011-12-26, 01:05 AM

Only because Aquaman can call forth Cthulhu (yes, he controls any creature in the water even non-native ones).

Pretty sure that's non-canon.

kpenguin

2011-12-26, 02:59 AM

That particular image of Aquaman riding Cthulhu is non-canon, yes.

However, what is canon is that every year, Etrigan and Aquaman team up to face off against a Lovecraftian abomination that is trapped at the bottom of the sea, driving it back into slumber each and every time. Not only does Aquaman punch out Cthulhu, he does so on a yearly basis.

...of course, the post-Flashpoint universe might have retconned this away.

Devonix

2011-12-26, 06:57 AM

What is Canon is that Aquaman's strength is enough to lift an entire City Block buildings and all.

Traab

2011-12-26, 11:23 AM

Is that the same time period of canon that had superman hurling galaxies, or at least planets? Because lifting up an entire city block is some ludicrous power levels.

Coidzor

2011-12-26, 02:04 PM

Coidzor, that could be a successive tactic. Alas, it would require a rather high intellect, which doesn't seem to be one of Azazel's strong points. Iceman isn't too bright, too, but... well, I probably shouldn't start about Austen again.

He can leave and go get gloves before Iceman can react. :smallconfused:

Because unless he can become so cold that being in line of sight of him is basically death for all organic life as soon as he wills it... We got stuff that can be used to handle him.

Actually YES Yes he can be so cold that its impossible to even get near him without every cell in your body freezing. Its just that he's... you know not a mass murderer.

Iceman's capable of completely stopping nuclear reactions. Ok you teleport him to the sun. Well to do that you need to touch him. Touching Iceman is pretty much a death sentence in this type of fight. Bringing him into space in ice form doesn't hurt him. and Iceman is IMMUNE to heat. He's gone up against fire elementals and obbliterated them. He's fought in Hell. Iceman pushing himself can turn off the Sun.

Iceman isnt just a talking ice cube, as was said, he basically is the exact opposite of the human torch, he can directly effect the temperature of the area around him to instantly dangerous levels. Only in his case he freezes you instead of making your hair ignite if you get too close. Gloves wont help. Azazel cannot get too close to iceman, not even for a moment or two. Every time he gets too close or touches him, some part of him will be frostbitten, and he will be that much more debilitated. That turns this to a range game.

If he's only getting frostbitten rather than destroyed or losing part of himself, well, you're just reinforcing my point then. :smalltongue:

However, if we're going by characterization like is being insisted upon, he wouldn't turn off the sun, as that's at least 3 steps worse than mere mass murder. Also, Azazel can choose the battlefield due to his powerset, so that can be used to limit how destructive Iceman is willing to constantly be. And to defend against someone with instantaneous or nigh-instanaeous teleportation, whatever you've got has to be up 24/7. So how much of a safe zone for civvies would there have to be for his "everyone dies" aura of cold? How long can he keep this up for? Indefinitely due to it being that passive? With concentration? In a way that taxes his mental or physical fortitude?

The only real questions I see, in the absence of some game-changing answer to the above, remaining as to whether this tactic would work are, 1. what is Iceman's reaction speed? 2. How long does it take Azazel to teleport?

Apparently Azazel is too thick to even consider it, but that's not especially surprising considering the genre mostly depends upon characters not fully exploiting their power set so that the writers can have an easier job.

Traab

2011-12-26, 03:15 PM

Apparently Azazel is too thick to even consider it, but that's not especially surprising considering the genre mostly depends upon characters not fully exploiting their power set so that the writers can have an easier job.

heh, I take it less as writer laziness and more as "Oops! We didnt consider the potential of that ability when we introduced it. Maybe we should just ignore it and never bring it up." Virtually every superhero, and super powered villain, has some aspect of their abilities that are just that insanely overpowered if you think about them logically. Sometimes you will see the absurd level brought up, like when the human torch realizes he is capable of igniting earths atmosphere. (I dont know if he ever could do that, this is just an example) And its used as a tool to show how important self control is for him to avoid causing havoc.

Xondoure

2011-12-26, 04:02 PM

heh, I take it less as writer laziness and more as "Oops! We didnt consider the potential of that ability when we introduced it. Maybe we should just ignore it and never bring it up." Virtually every superhero, and super powered villain, has some aspect of their abilities that are just that insanely overpowered if you think about them logically. Sometimes you will see the absurd level brought up, like when the human torch realizes he is capable of igniting earths atmosphere. (I dont know if he ever could do that, this is just an example) And its used as a tool to show how important self control is for him to avoid causing havoc.

As a wee child I liked to invent superheroes (who didn't really) and growing up a bit realized the implications of some of the abilities. So I shifted the verse a bit in that each and every one of the heroes if they ever went bad would have little difficulty completely wiping their team mates. Because killing is much much easier than stopping without harm. Kept me entertained for months figuring out the different scenarios.

Devonix

2011-12-26, 10:11 PM

Is that the same time period of canon that had superman hurling galaxies, or at least planets? Because lifting up an entire city block is some ludicrous power levels.

Nope this is just regular pre Reboot Aquaman. it was during one of the battles against their evil counterparts from the antimatter universe. And compared to the rest of the Justice League its not that big a deal.

Its not like he was juggling it. and Superman having planet hurling abilities is still canon its only at very small times in the continuity been where supes couldn't do such things.

Traab

2011-12-26, 10:55 PM

Nope this is just regular pre Reboot Aquaman. it was during one of the battles against their evil counterparts from the antimatter universe. And compared to the rest of the Justice League its not that big a deal.

Its not like he was juggling it. and Superman having planet hurling abilities is still canon its only at very small times in the continuity been where supes couldn't do such things.

Thats just plain silly levels of strength. "Darkseid? You annoy me. /picks up apokolyps and bashes him over the head with it." And aquaman being able to literally lift an entire city block? What the hell kind of justification is there for that kind of raw strength? Was he bitten by a radioactive superman?

Coidzor

2011-12-26, 10:58 PM

heh, I take it less as writer laziness and more as "Oops! We didnt consider the potential of that ability when we introduced it. Maybe we should just ignore it and never bring it up."

You don't think not stopping to consider the decision they were making to falls under the purview of writer laziness? :smallconfused:

Pretty much the epitome of that ethos of writer laziness is "stuff it in there, if the readers complain too much we'll ret-con it later somehow."

Virtually every superhero, and super powered villain, has some aspect of their abilities that are just that insanely overpowered if you think about them logically.

The problem is quite pervasive in the genre, yes. That's a small part of why the terms genre-blind and genre-savvy exist.

Traab

2011-12-26, 11:27 PM

You don't think not stopping to consider the decision they were making to falls under the purview of writer laziness? :smallconfused:

Pretty much the epitome of that ethos of writer laziness is "stuff it in there, if the readers complain too much we'll ret-con it later somehow."

The problem is quite pervasive in the genre, yes. That's a small part of why the terms genre-blind and genre-savvy exist.

Not really. It can be laziness, but remember whats happening here. A writer, or a few tops, thinks of an ability for a new hero. They toss it back and forth a bit, decide its workable, then write up a comic for it. The hundred thousand readers who pick it up look at this power, and somewhere in that swarm, its likely there will be a guy good enough at thinking outside the box to come up with an unexpected use for the power that breaks the universe. Its not laziness, its literally just that the thought hadnt occurred to them. Its rather hard to think of every possible application for some of these broad abilities.

That being said, yes there likely are several examples of writers clearly not bothering to think of the ramifications for some clearly overpowered abilities, but there are also just as many really subtle things that just get overlooked until you have an entire community picking them apart. Just as a crazy example that likely wouldnt work. Take Sue Richards. She can produce shields and such. But how finely can she form them? Could she say.... split an atom with them? Suddenly you have people proclaiming she is capable of producing nuclear explosions if she concentrates hard enough. If that was theoretically possible for her ability set, does this mean that the writers were lazy for not thinking about it? Or that the readers are so insane that they can come up with this sort of sick thing?

Devonix

2011-12-26, 11:39 PM

Thats just plain silly levels of strength. "Darkseid? You annoy me. /picks up apokolyps and bashes him over the head with it." And aquaman being able to literally lift an entire city block? What the hell kind of justification is there for that kind of raw strength? Was he bitten by a radioactive superman?

Well seeing as Superman can't bash Darkseid with the planet he's standing on that's a silly argument. Also Darkseid's even more powerful than that. He's a guy who warps the fabric of reality by simply existing.

Also I said he could lift the block. he's not gonna throw it at anyone. but he's capable of preventing it from sinking into an huge pit ect. And Thats simply what Aquaman's powers are. He's the super strong lord of the oceans and champion of Posideon with all of the powers inherent in that title.

to paraphrase the Martian Manhunter... " We battle REAL GODS and make them weep. What are you to us? "

The DCU operates at a very high scale of power. Both the heroes as well as the villans are in these catagories. If Aquaman couldn't do these things then he'd be curbstomped in nearly every encounter. Remember he's someone that fights Lobo single handed and punches out star gods.

Traab

2011-12-27, 08:47 AM

Well seeing as Superman can't bash Darkseid with the planet he's standing on that's a silly argument. Also Darkseid's even more powerful than that. He's a guy who warps the fabric of reality by simply existing.

Also I said he could lift the block. he's not gonna throw it at anyone. but he's capable of preventing it from sinking into an huge pit ect. And Thats simply what Aquaman's powers are. He's the super strong lord of the oceans and champion of Posideon with all of the powers inherent in that title.

to paraphrase the Martian Manhunter... " We battle REAL GODS and make them weep. What are you to us? "

The DCU operates at a very high scale of power. Both the heroes as well as the villans are in these catagories. If Aquaman couldn't do these things then he'd be curbstomped in nearly every encounter. Remember he's someone that fights Lobo single handed and punches out star gods.

Ah, gotcha, power creep that starts from a high point and keeps on going. Ill admit that aquaman is one of the heroes im least familiar with. All I knew about him was king of atlantis, telepathic, and I think he got a trident grafted to where his hand used to be. I was just trying to think of any reason that a guy with those known, (to me) abilities would have super strength on THAT level. As far as dcu goes, remember, the justice league also has such powerhouses as The Question. . . . yeah. So its not like all of them are city block lifting heavyweights.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-27, 11:43 AM

If people want to go with this... well Bobby Drake still wins because at this point he's essentially an Ice Elemental with a bit of Water Elemental thrown in. Punching his head off will not kill him, any more then it would kill a block of ice. He was apparently recently reduced to water vapor and survived.

So Bobby Drake is now in the category of needing special methods to be disposed of. Like thrown into the sun or something, if you had the super strength to lift a whole iceberg and fly it there.

Right. Both these guys are probably not going to care at all about a simple punch or the like. We're talking "teleport to space, chuck into sun" levels of combat, not a barroom brawl.

Or, yknow, to hell.

I don't see Azazel ever trying to punch Iceman. At the closest, he uses swords. That's probably uncomfortably close already, and only viable due to teleportation, but actually touching is only going to happen if he's teleporting you somewhere...which will also be bad for you. This does have the possible outcome of BOTH of them losing if precise timing happens, such as a teleport into space, then being frozen(can a demons brain BE frozen? I don't know if Marvel has covered this).

I'm not sure that Azazel's vaccum handling ability has been covered specifically, but humans last in vaccum for at least 15 seconds, and demons in marvel are, if anything, less in need of air and such.

Assuming Azazel can teleport with others as seems to be taken as a given, that is.

It's among his powers, yes. Physical contact is *usually* used for this(clothes, etc seem quite sufficient). I believe arcane circles have also been used in canon, but comparatively little...so that seems less reliable.

His teleportation happens extremely rapidly, from what I've seen of him. Assuming you're ok with using the lower powered movie version as a reference for speed, he crushed a military base solo in seconds via extremely rapid teleporation.

Definitely a char fight. While talking about Stan Lee is fun(seriously, enough with the cameos already), I don't think it's especially important for deciding which one of the chars would be victorious. Aquaman...I dunno. I usually try to avoid marvel vs DC matchups, since switching universes means you have more possible points to argue over.

Soras Teva Gee

2011-12-27, 12:13 PM

Right. Both these guys are probably not going to care at all about a simple punch or the like. We're talking "teleport to space, chuck into sun" levels of combat, not a barroom brawl.

Or, yknow, to hell.

I don't see Azazel ever trying to punch Iceman. At the closest, he uses swords. That's probably uncomfortably close already, and only viable due to teleportation, but actually touching is only going to happen if he's teleporting you somewhere...which will also be bad for you. This does have the possible outcome of BOTH of them losing if precise timing happens, such as a teleport into space, then being frozen(can a demons brain BE frozen? I don't know if Marvel has covered this).

I'm not sure that Azazel's vaccum handling ability has been covered specifically, but humans last in vaccum for at least 15 seconds, and demons in marvel are, if anything, less in need of air and such.

Problem: Azazel is not a demon.

That is a big part of the "moral" of that story, there is no god or demons everything supernatural was just idiotic pre-historic humans deciding to hate mutants because they were retarded and you reader are too if you dare to not like it. Because Chuck Austen had a hate-on and devoted two arcs to spreading diarrhetic offal over everything Nightcrawler.

Yes that's a disgusting analogy, Chuck Austen is a disgusting writer.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-27, 12:19 PM

Nightcrawler's as much of a demon as Angel is...an angel. Sure, Marvel tends to take a distinctly alien approach to the supernatural, but Azazel being not exactly human is rather unarguable.

For one thing, humans don't grow tails.

Traab

2011-12-27, 12:44 PM

Tyndmyr

2011-12-27, 01:01 PM

They also dont grow wings, except when they do.

Yup. Angel isn't vanilla human. He's got blood of the Cheyarafim(read, angels, as if you couldn't already see the rehash of Cherabim) in 'im. Azazel is a Neyaphem(ie, demon), and thus, nightcrawler is half demon.

Anteros

2011-12-27, 01:11 PM

The Glyphstone

2011-12-27, 01:24 PM

Temperatures don't go below absolute zero. Period. End of discussion.

We already have materials that can insulate people from absolute zero temperatures.

We can't even artificially create absolute zero temperature, how do we have material that can insulate someone from it? And what materials are these?

Azazel only needs to be close to Iceman for half a second to poof him into space. He can do it before Bobby even reacts.

Anything else is just people trying to fanwank their guy into winning.

[/irony]

Soras Teva Gee

2011-12-27, 01:56 PM

Yup. Angel isn't vanilla human. He's got blood of the Cheyarafim(read, angels, as if you couldn't already see the rehash of Cherabim) in 'im. Azazel is a Neyaphem(ie, demon), and thus, nightcrawler is half demon.

What are you talking about? Angel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Salvadore) had insect wings and was one of several mutants Morrison created to be challenge his readers by making them icky or ugly because of their mutations.

In case you didn't catch the subtext yes I'm being willfully ignorant, because there are plenty of mutants with wings. Nobody in the Draco is an angel or demon, because the point was that they don't exist. No matter what nonsense, this is its still the story.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-27, 02:01 PM

... because there are plenty of mutants with wings. Nobody in the Draco is an angel or demon, because the point was that they don't exist. No matter what nonsense, this is its still the story.

Granted, in X-men, the explanation for everything is mutation somehow...

However, in the story, these are distinct bloodlines, with blood-related properties, not mere one off mutations.

Furthermore, they are undying groups of people from biblical times, one of which has wings and is generally good and the other of which is horned, has a tail, and is generally evil. Calling them angels and demons is pretty accurate.

Soras Teva Gee

2011-12-27, 02:40 PM

Granted, in X-men, the explanation for everything is mutation somehow...

However, in the story, these are distinct bloodlines, with blood-related properties, not mere one off mutations.

Furthermore, they are undying groups of people from biblical times, one of which has wings and is generally good and the other of which is horned, has a tail, and is generally evil. Calling them angels and demons is pretty accurate.

And also completely inaccurate if one wants to go with a "they get extra special powers just for not being human" line of argument. You want to label them that go ahead, but it doesn't make it a meaningful definition.

Frankly I'm not sure Marvel has ever defined demons in a unified way (as opposed to DC) though there are numerous entities with the look. We have the Deviants, inhabitants of Limbo, and various entities like Mephisto and Dormammu that could also apply. Which range from artificially created races, to dark gods, to completely extra-dimensional entities.

So adding mutants mistaken for demons is possible but was/is still inherently stupid because Chuck Austen clearly had no idea what he was talking about. Which one can see by thinking biblical angels and demons actually looked like the classic depictions. Then again a man like Chuck Austen who's bigoted mind was so stupid as to think he could make a plot with Nightcrawler going to be the pope and tie fake Rapture (notably not a Catholic belief) work doesn't need research and accuracy just stereotyping.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-27, 03:17 PM

And also completely inaccurate if one wants to go with a "they get extra special powers just for not being human" line of argument. You want to label them that go ahead, but it doesn't make it a meaningful definition.

I'm not relying on extra-special powers just for not being human...

Merely asking if there are any general abilities or the like given them as a class. Mephisto and him appear to be at least somehow related(and of similar power levels), but I don't know as that helps, being that Mephisto is more of a plot device, and I don't know that Mephisto's origin story is ever told(if it has, I haven't read it.)

Xondoure

2011-12-27, 03:21 PM

Temperatures don't go below absolute zero. Period. End of discussion.

We already have materials that can insulate people from absolute zero temperatures.

Azazel only needs to be close to Iceman for half a second to poof him into space. He can do it before Bobby even reacts.

Anything else is just people trying to fanwank their guy into winning.

Ah but see, Iceman can't make things go below absolute zero but he can certainly make them reach it faster. So materials that insulate against it may not be as effective as you would think. And seconding what Glyphstone said.

Mikeavelli

2011-12-27, 04:12 PM

We can't even artificially create absolute zero temperature, how do we have material that can insulate someone from it?

Current world record for "cold" is 0.0000000001 K (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero). So, close enough to absolute zero for us.

Insulation is actually pretty trivial, even for extreme temperature gradients like that. Liquid nitrogen (~77 K) can be stored in a coffee thermos. I mean, it's not particularly safe, and actually pretty stupid to do, but possible.

Anyways, all Azazel would have to do is hop over to NASA. A Space Suit could protect him for the fraction of a second it'd take to pop in, grab iceman, and pop out into space. Bonus points for protection from Vacuum.

Xondoure

2011-12-27, 04:36 PM

Current world record for "cold" is 0.0000000001 K (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero). So, close enough to absolute zero for us.

Insulation is actually pretty trivial, even for extreme temperature gradients like that. Liquid nitrogen (~77 K) can be stored in a coffee thermos. I mean, it's not particularly safe, and actually pretty stupid to do, but possible.

Anyways, all Azazel would have to do is hop over to NASA. A Space Suit could protect him for the fraction of a second it'd take to pop in, grab iceman, and pop out into space. Bonus points for protection from Vacuum.

Yes but touching iceman means iceman has a chance to touch back. Trying to grapple a amorphous ice being without being latched onto is much harder. One quick ice spear to the head later...

Tyndmyr

2011-12-27, 04:39 PM

Yes but touching iceman means iceman has a chance to touch back. Trying to grapple a amorphous ice being without being latched onto is much harder. One quick ice spear to the head later...

I don't think grappling is necessary. He just needs to touch you, teleport, then teleport away. There's no element of subduing you required for the teleportation.

Traab

2011-12-27, 04:58 PM

Current world record for "cold" is 0.0000000001 K (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero). So, close enough to absolute zero for us.

Insulation is actually pretty trivial, even for extreme temperature gradients like that. Liquid nitrogen (~77 K) can be stored in a coffee thermos. I mean, it's not particularly safe, and actually pretty stupid to do, but possible.

Anyways, all Azazel would have to do is hop over to NASA. A Space Suit could protect him for the fraction of a second it'd take to pop in, grab iceman, and pop out into space. Bonus points for protection from Vacuum.

Do you have any idea how cumbersome a space suit is? He would NOT be pulling off an xmen 2 style nightcrawler assault on the president wearing one of them. And it would take well over "a fraction of a second" to reach out and grab anything wearing one of them.

*EDIT* Also, what are the limits of his teleporting skills? I mean, those gloves are pretty thick, does he need to be touching you with his bare hand to teleport you? Can he target you while you are leaning against a wall he is on the other side of?

Tyndmyr

2011-12-27, 05:03 PM

Do you have any idea how cumbersome a space suit is? He would NOT be pulling off an xmen 2 style nightcrawler assault on the president wearing one of them. And it would take well over "a fraction of a second" to reach out and grab anything wearing one of them.

*EDIT* Also, what are the limits of his teleporting skills? I mean, those gloves are pretty thick, does he need to be touching you with his bare hand to teleport you? Can he target you while you are leaning against a wall he is on the other side of?

I don't know if that latter one has been shown...but touching clothes is apparently quite adequate, and I don't believe gloves have ever been a problem for teleportation.

Azazel's teleportation being far better than nightcrawlers, he would not need to do an Xmen 2 style assault on the prez. One teleport, and he'd be there. Nightcrawler has distance/exaustion limitations on his teleporation that Azazel does not have.

Traab

2011-12-27, 05:22 PM

I don't know if that latter one has been shown...but touching clothes is apparently quite adequate, and I don't believe gloves have ever been a problem for teleportation.

Azazel's teleportation being far better than nightcrawlers, he would not need to do an Xmen 2 style assault on the prez. One teleport, and he'd be there. Nightcrawler has distance/exaustion limitations on his teleporation that Azazel does not have.

You are missing my point. My point wasnt that he would have to do the crazy stunt teleporting of nightcrawler, it was that in the space suit, he COULDNT move very well. Its bulky, heavy, and awkward. So he most likely wouldnt be able to put on the suit and just do a half second port in, port out insta win move.

Coidzor

2011-12-27, 05:56 PM

Do you have any idea how cumbersome a space suit is? He would NOT be pulling off an xmen 2 style nightcrawler assault on the president wearing one of them. And it would take well over "a fraction of a second" to reach out and grab anything wearing one of them.

Of course not. He's a better teleporter for one so he wouldn't need something so long and drawn out as that scene. He could teleport immediately into close quarters, practically or actually touching iceman, apply pressure, and then teleport back out again.

Or if he can't do that, then it should probably be established.

*EDIT* Also, what are the limits of his teleporting skills? I mean, those gloves are pretty thick, does he need to be touching you with his bare hand to teleport you? Can he target you while you are leaning against a wall he is on the other side of?

Now you're asking the right sorts of questions.

Xondoure

2011-12-27, 06:32 PM

I don't think grappling is necessary. He just needs to touch you, teleport, then teleport away. There's no element of subduing you required for the teleportation.

No but see that's the thing, touch iceman and in that moment he has a chance to attach himself to you. Once he has you're doomed. Teleportation is powerful but normally when you have some advantage in a close range assault. Teleport plus knife is a potent combination but not against a guy made of ice.

shadow_archmagi

2011-12-27, 06:33 PM

You are missing my point. My point wasnt that he would have to do the crazy stunt teleporting of nightcrawler, it was that in the space suit, he COULDNT move very well. Its bulky, heavy, and awkward. So he most likely wouldnt be able to put on the suit and just do a half second port in, port out insta win move.

Well, teleportation appears to be a mental action, so the DEX penalty there wouldn't affect him. All he has to do is appear near iceman, poke him, teleport, lift his finger, and then teleport again without iceman.

I'm pretty sure that's a manuever that could be comfortably achieved while wearing a straitjacket.

Devonix

2011-12-27, 07:53 PM

Mikeavelli

2011-12-27, 10:57 PM

Xondoure

2011-12-27, 11:04 PM

As noted, Azazel only needs to teleport in, fingerpoke, and teleport out into space. That's all the time Iceman has to kill Azazel in. I submit that the space suit (any other near-perfect insulating material would be acceptable really) would be enough to protect him from even these crazy freezing powers for the fraction of a second necessary to pull this off.

I submit that being trapped in deep space qualifies as "eternal imprisonment" which is one of the win conditions OP stated in the challenge statement. Sure, he might still be alive, but he has no way to get back.

I submit that getting that close to Iceman means he has a chance to stay engaged with you. Staying engaged with Iceman is death. Basically even if it is for a second Azazel has to touch him which means that contact is continued. Meanwhile Iceman can keep himself attached.

I mean really self +passenger teleportation is powerful but not strong enough to win fights against beings of Iceman's tier (or lower.) Now if he could just look at Iceman and teleport him it would go to Azazel.

Coidzor

2011-12-27, 11:09 PM

I submit that getting that close to Iceman means he has a chance to stay engaged with you.

Even if you teleport behind him? Does he have perfect cognizance of his surroundings in 360 degrees from his body? Does he have perfect reaction speed to things that happen in fractions of seconds?

Xondoure

2011-12-27, 11:16 PM

Even if you teleport behind him? Does he have perfect cognizance of his surroundings in 360 degrees from his body? Does he have perfect reaction speed to things that happen in fractions of seconds?

No but generally teleportation with contact means touching someone. And you'd be surprised how quickly someone can react to a touch. Especially if that someone is an amorphous ice being. Azazel touches only to have his finger sink into icy flesh and become stuck.

leafman

2011-12-27, 11:45 PM

Xondoure

2011-12-27, 11:59 PM

Wouldn't Azazel be able to teleport out of the grapple though? I mean how is it decided what teleports with him, besides Azazel having to be touching it? Does he pick and choose? Or is it everything he is in contact with minus what he's standing on?

I seem to recall characters holding onto teleporters and thus being teleported as fairly standard. But I suppose it is worth consideration.

Traab

2011-12-28, 12:00 AM

Even if you teleport behind him? Does he have perfect cognizance of his surroundings in 360 degrees from his body? Does he have perfect reaction speed to things that happen in fractions of seconds?

Go lick a metal pole in sub zero weather. The pole doesnt have to be aware of your presence to freeze you to it. (Seriously, try it, sneak up on a pole and lick it, I bet you stick)

Mikeavelli

2011-12-28, 01:35 AM

Go lick a metal pole in sub zero weather. The pole doesnt have to be aware of your presence to freeze you to it. (Seriously, try it, sneak up on a pole and lick it, I bet you stick)

This is the purpose of finding an insulator to suit up with before tackling Iceman.

Xondoure

2011-12-28, 01:47 AM

This is the purpose of finding an insulator to suit up with before tackling Iceman.

Right but when just touching him gives him a chance to envelop your appendage in an icy grip that won't necessarily be enough to disengage from him. And now you're trapped next to an ice elemental ready to spear you and freeze every atom of your being.

Soras Teva Gee

2011-12-28, 02:09 AM

I'm not relying on extra-special powers just for not being human...

Merely asking if there are any general abilities or the like given them as a class. Mephisto and him appear to be at least somehow related(and of similar power levels), but I don't know as that helps, being that Mephisto is more of a plot device, and I don't know that Mephisto's origin story is ever told(if it has, I haven't read it.)

There aren't, and Azazel is on the low end of legitimate claims to being one anyways. So he's a mutant with a long life span and more then one powers then normal. But we've no reason I'm aware of to say a bullet in his head wouldn't be fatal.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-28, 08:31 AM

People are also forgetting the fact that Iceman can AND HAS completely turned all liquid in a person's body to ice by simply looking at that person. No touch needed no Icebeams just locking his attention on someone is enough for him to freeze every molicule of them. Its one of his fully lethal tricks he only pulls out when he's pissed off.

Iceman focuses and Nuclear reactors stop going into meltdown. Iceman in space is perfectly safe because in Ice form he doesn't eat, breathe, sleep, need atmosphere. or anything of the like.

I believe his freezing powers are limited to absolute zero(still quite notable and rapid, though), and that he's never been shown as being able to make this happen arbitrarily. In short, the cold always originates from him. It might be quite rapidly, but he is almost always portrayed as emanating cold. He can't just squint and freeze someone's head anywhere he wants.

So...since the cold comes from him, insulation should protect against it. Admittedly, it'll be protecting against absolute zero, but even so...space is only 7 K. Space suits handle that just fine. There's no danger of Azazel freezing inside the suit before teleporting twice, since that would take him all of about a half second.

Without any insulation, the cold is a great deal more problematic.

If someone were really going for death instead of imprisonment, Azazel could teleport into the gravity well of the hottest star in the area. The additional heat is...at a minimum, not good for Iceman. Falling into the star itself can reasonably be assumed to be a bad day.

Wouldn't Azazel be able to teleport out of the grapple though? I mean how is it decided what teleports with him, besides Azazel having to be touching it? Does he pick and choose? Or is it everything he is in contact with minus what he's standing on?

I believe Nightcrawler, his son with more limited teleportation, has previously used teleportation to escape grapples. I can't think of any direct examples off the top of my head...it's clear that physical contact is a prerequisite for teleporting others, but it seems not to require teleportation. For instance, while teleporting objects is clearly possible, and frequently happens, standing on the ground while teleporting does not take a chunk of earth with the teleporter.

There aren't, and Azazel is on the low end of legitimate claims to being one anyways. So he's a mutant with a long life span and more then one powers then normal. But we've no reason I'm aware of to say a bullet in his head wouldn't be fatal.

He...has claimed to fight Mephisto for the power of Satan, and Mephisto appears to fear/respect his level of power. That does not seem particularly low on the power spectrum for the Marvel universe. There's plenty higher, sure, but those are mostly things beyond demons in the power spectrum...ie, the list of high end players in the Infinity Gauntlet tale.

Traab

2011-12-28, 08:53 AM

He...has claimed to fight Mephisto for the power of Satan, and Mephisto appears to fear/respect his level of power. That does not seem particularly low on the power spectrum for the Marvel universe. There's plenty higher, sure, but those are mostly things beyond demons in the power spectrum...ie, the list of high end players in the Infinity Gauntlet tale.

There may be a reason for this. Mephisto may have way more raw power than Azazel could ever dream of, but there are often great equalizer powers on one side or another. For instance, a psychic that isnt at mind crush levels like xavier, can still read your mind to see what you are going to do next and counter it. So even though he is slower, weaker, and less skilled normally in physical combat, he would still be really hard to beat because of the advantage his psychic skills give him. Same for teleporting. As we have read in this thread alone, perfect teleportation is a huge ability with far reaching potential consequences. So even though (and im making this up completely) mephisto has the ability to obliterate matter from existence in a 50 meter sphere around him at will, he is still in danger of one of these teleport moves if azazel is fast enough. So mephisto may respect azazel because of the potential danger he represents, while at the same time, azazel is about 5 steps below him on pure power.

He may also counter mephisto and his abilities somehow. Rock paper scissors type stuff. We have seen that in some versus threads. There are just some matchups that arent a contest, despite both sides being on similar power levels. One guy just has an ability that totally trumps his opponent somehow. Just look at pokemon games. You can beat a higher level pokemon just by being the right type. Oh sure my onix is 10 levels lower than your pikachu, but im fundamentally immune to his attacks so I can take you down in the end.

Xondoure

2011-12-28, 10:14 AM

I believe his freezing powers are limited to absolute zero(still quite notable and rapid, though), and that he's never been shown as being able to make this happen arbitrarily. In short, the cold always originates from him. It might be quite rapidly, but he is almost always portrayed as emanating cold. He can't just squint and freeze someone's head anywhere he wants.

So...since the cold comes from him, insulation should protect against it. Admittedly, it'll be protecting against absolute zero, but even so...space is only 7 K. Space suits handle that just fine. There's no danger of Azazel freezing inside the suit before teleporting twice, since that would take him all of about a half second.

Without any insulation, the cold is a great deal more problematic.

If someone were really going for death instead of imprisonment, Azazel could teleport into the gravity well of the hottest star in the area. The additional heat is...at a minimum, not good for Iceman. Falling into the star itself can reasonably be assumed to be a bad day.

I believe Nightcrawler, his son with more limited teleportation, has previously used teleportation to escape grapples. I can't think of any direct examples off the top of my head...it's clear that physical contact is a prerequisite for teleporting others, but it seems not to require teleportation. For instance, while teleporting objects is clearly possible, and frequently happens, standing on the ground while teleporting does not take a chunk of earth with the teleporter.

He...has claimed to fight Mephisto for the power of Satan, and Mephisto appears to fear/respect his level of power. That does not seem particularly low on the power spectrum for the Marvel universe. There's plenty higher, sure, but those are mostly things beyond demons in the power spectrum...ie, the list of high end players in the Infinity Gauntlet tale.

But he can project that cold at speeds that shouldn't be possible. So I think it's fair to say that insulation may not have the same effect.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-28, 10:16 AM

There may be a reason for this. Mephisto may have way more raw power than Azazel could ever dream of, but there are often great equalizer powers on one side or another. For instance, a psychic that isnt at mind crush levels like xavier, can still read your mind to see what you are going to do next and counter it. So even though he is slower, weaker, and less skilled normally in physical combat, he would still be really hard to beat because of the advantage his psychic skills give him. Same for teleporting. As we have read in this thread alone, perfect teleportation is a huge ability with far reaching potential consequences. So even though (and im making this up completely) mephisto has the ability to obliterate matter from existence in a 50 meter sphere around him at will, he is still in danger of one of these teleport moves if azazel is fast enough. So mephisto may respect azazel because of the potential danger he represents, while at the same time, azazel is about 5 steps below him on pure power.

He may also counter mephisto and his abilities somehow. Rock paper scissors type stuff. We have seen that in some versus threads. There are just some matchups that arent a contest, despite both sides being on similar power levels. One guy just has an ability that totally trumps his opponent somehow. Just look at pokemon games. You can beat a higher level pokemon just by being the right type. Oh sure my onix is 10 levels lower than your pikachu, but im fundamentally immune to his attacks so I can take you down in the end.

In the words of our favorite lich...Power is Power.

It doesn't matter if the source is matter annihilation or incredibly rapid teleportation. If Mephisto respects him because of his power, it means he IS a fairly big player. Probably not as big as Mephisto himself, but even being in the same league is quite notable.

Note also that while Azazel has mentally dominated those lower on the demonic food chain than himself(specifically his half-demon kids) quite adeptly(no range limitation, many simultaneously), there has been no indication that his power applies outside of that. So, it may be some kind of blood thing, and I would hesitate to ascribe him more far reaching telepathic powers.

But he can project that cold at speeds that shouldn't be possible. So I think it's fair to say that insulation may not have the same effect.

I have no idea what speed of cold projection "should be possible". Presumably, in a realistic world, none.

But, this is the marvel world, and he can apparently project cold rapidly from his body because of something something mutant something. We can deduce that this ability is limited to his immediate area, and while it can be directed, it does not appear to directly penetrate walls and other physical structures. However, once created, areas of ice appear to behave normally in regards to physics.

So, if Iceman is attacking a target in a building, he can't simply turn the building into an ice cube...but he can cover the building with ice/absolute zero temperatures, and heat inside will normally be rapidly lost. Or, he can use the ice itself as a physical weapon.

Coidzor

2011-12-28, 10:17 AM

Go lick a metal pole in sub zero weather. The pole doesnt have to be aware of your presence to freeze you to it. (Seriously, try it, sneak up on a pole and lick it, I bet you stick)

Azazel has dripping wet skin now? That somehow has an effect through a protective casing?

Right but when just touching him gives him a chance to envelop your appendage in an icy grip that won't necessarily be enough to disengage from him. And now you're trapped next to an ice elemental ready to spear you and freeze every atom of your being.

And how quickly does Iceman react to a surprise touch? That lasts for a short period of time.

What about when a diversion is used?

Pretty sure it'd be fairly trivial to cause a distraction with teleportation powers on this level.

But he can project that cold at speeds that shouldn't be possible. So I think it's fair to say that insulation may not have the same effect.

So you're saying that this is a passive effect rather than something he has to concentrate on?

Xondoure

2011-12-28, 10:21 AM

Azazel has dripping wet skin now?

Well no but flesh contact on something as cold as Iceman is going to be much much worse than licking a pole when he's gone full cold mode. That said insulation would work against this if Iceman isn't able to use his abilities to accelerate the drain from the cold past this.

Coidzor

2011-12-28, 10:23 AM

Well no but flesh contact on something as cold as Iceman is going to be much much worse than licking a pole when he's gone full cold mode. That said insulation would work against this if Iceman isn't able to use his abilities to accelerate the drain from the cold past this.

Good thing no one but Herr Doktor Strawman has been arguing for direct flesh contact then, eh?

Traab

2011-12-28, 10:49 AM

Good thing no one but Herr Doktor Strawman has been arguing for direct flesh contact then, eh?

Well arent you amusing. I was neither suggesting that azazael has wet skin, nor that he will be barehanded. My point was that if iceman has his temp low enough, just touching him would be like licking a metal pole in winter, iceman wouldnt have to do much at all to trap his hand or whatever in ice, it would just engulf his gloved hand from contact automatically. So it would be less about icemans reaction time, and more about how fast the ice could engulf this space suit whether with or without icemans direct reaction. He keeps himself powered up to max cold levels, and there is a good chance that azazel would not be capable of just automatically letting go after doing his teleport into space thing. And if we are going with icemans apparent ability to stop nuclear meltdowns or shut down stars with his sheer level of coldness, being able to flash freeze and shatter a space suit like a rose in liquid nitrogen isnt that far fetched.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-28, 11:16 AM

Iceman has taken punches many, many times in canon without people ending up frozen to him.

Therefore, we can conclude that auto-freezing skin contact is not among his powerset.

And if we are going with icemans apparent ability to stop nuclear meltdowns or shut down stars with his sheer level of coldness, being able to flash freeze and shatter a space suit like a rose in liquid nitrogen isnt that far fetched.

Has he shut down a star in canon? That seems...wildly above the level of things he's done.

Assuming he can project absolute zero temp air, shutting down a meltdown shouldn't actually be that problematic. Liquid water is a traditional coolant for that. Meh. That is, if anything, more a statement of endurance than it is of size of area affected.

Coidzor

2011-12-28, 11:21 AM

Well arent you amusing. I was neither suggesting that azazael has wet skin, nor that he will be barehanded. My point was that if iceman has his temp low enough, just touching him would be like licking a metal pole in winter, iceman wouldnt have to do much at all to trap his hand or whatever in ice, it would just engulf his gloved hand from contact automatically. Then state so directly the first time rather than going offtopic and asking me to go cause harm to myself, please. Slightly distracts from your intent.

He keeps himself powered up to max cold levels, and there is a good chance that azazel would not be capable of just automatically letting go after doing his teleport into space thing. And if we are going with icemans apparent ability to stop nuclear meltdowns or shut down stars with his sheer level of coldness, being able to flash freeze and shatter a space suit like a rose in liquid nitrogen isnt that far fetched.

Eh? He constantly keeps himself powered up to max cold levels now? Even when around civvies? Or does he just never ever go around civillians anymore?

Tyndmyr

2011-12-28, 11:29 AM

, being able to flash freeze and shatter a space suit like a rose in liquid nitrogen isnt that far fetched.

Actually, it still is.

The reason a rose freezes is because of the water and stuff inside it. There's a reason they don't do that with insulated containers...and in fact, carry the liquid nitro inside insulated containers.

Water and insulation just do not behave the same. It's not a mere question of "this is colder", it's a lack of water. And yes, Iceman is clearly limited by a lack of water.

Devonix

2011-12-28, 11:29 AM

Then state so directly the first time rather than going offtopic and asking me to go cause harm to myself, please.

Eh? He constantly keeps himself powered up to max cold levels now? Even when around civvies? Or does he just never ever go around civillians anymore?

All the time no but sometimes he does spend days in his ice form for no other reason than why not. In his Ice form he's effectively immortal.

He's had his entire body destroyed and reformed. He's absorbed mosture from others via touch to rebuild his body. His powers work fully through insulation. A space suit does not protect one from him. He looks at you or consentrates on you and you freeze. No saving throw Every cell of your body simply freezes from the inside out.

If he wants to he can turn your heart into a block of ice and leave the entire rest of your body untouched.

Iceman is Omega level aka one of the most powerful beings on the entire planet. He's Superman levels of power, Cosmic levels of power he's one of the marvel Universe's Big guns. The only thing holding him back is that he's a laid back individual and doesn't push himself unless needed. Azazel is not in his league.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-28, 11:42 AM

All the time no but sometimes he does spend days in his ice form for no other reason than why not. In his Ice form he's effectively immortal.

He's had his entire body destroyed and reformed. He's absorbed mosture from others via touch to rebuild his body. His powers work fully through insulation. A space suit does not protect one from him. He looks at you or consentrates on you and you freeze. No saving throw Every cell of your body simply freezes from the inside out.

If he wants to he can turn your heart into a block of ice and leave the entire rest of your body untouched.

Iceman is Omega level aka one of the most powerful beings on the entire planet. He's Superman levels of power, Cosmic levels of power he's one of the marvel Universe's Big guns. The only thing holding him back is that he's a laid back individual and doesn't push himself unless needed. Azazel is not in his league.

But he....doesn't do that. In practice, he doesn't just turn hearts into a block of ice leaving the rest of the body untouched. In fact, I'm reasonably certain he's never done that.

If it's not a power that's ever been demonstrated...we can't assume that he has it.

Zen Monkey

2011-12-28, 11:55 AM

Devonix

2011-12-28, 12:07 PM

But he....doesn't do that. In practice, he doesn't just turn hearts into a block of ice leaving the rest of the body untouched. In fact, I'm reasonably certain he's never done that.

If it's not a power that's ever been demonstrated...we can't assume that he has it.

Actually it is a power that has been demonstrated. I didn't want to turn this into a scan fest but here we go. In this image we have Iceman beginning to freeze the inside of a person while leaving their outsides un affected, AKA Brain freeze.
http://imageshack.us/f/332/icemanbloodfreeze4zt8la.jpg/

Tyndmyr

2011-12-28, 12:30 PM

How does teleportation work in regards to an occupied space? Can someone just teleport, or be teleported, into the center of a mountain? If so, can the teleporter then leave the mountain or would they die on arrival?

Once your mutant powers start defying the laws of physics, 'mutant' just becomes a sci-fi term for 'magic.'

Teleportation into liquid or gas displaces it(hence the bampf). Into solid is verboten, though teleporters can automatically know to avoid this. Something, something, mutant sense, something. So far as I know, the plasma state of matter has not been addressed.

So, the into the mountain is right out.

Actually it is a power that has been demonstrated. I didn't want to turn this into a scan fest but here we go. In this image we have Iceman beginning to freeze the inside of a person while leaving their outsides un affected, AKA Brain freeze.
http://imageshack.us/f/332/icemanbloodfreeze4zt8la.jpg/

I am...having trouble envisioning the freezing of the flow of blood to the brain in a way that would have that result. One would imagine that it would just be lethal effectively instantly.

Regardless, this is canon for him being able to use his power to cause pain, not to kill. Yes, it SHOULD kill if it works via physics...but evidently that's not the case.

Devonix

2011-12-28, 12:35 PM

Teleportation into liquid or gas displaces it(hence the bampf). Into solid is verboten, though teleporters can automatically know to avoid this. Something, something, mutant sense, something. So far as I know, the plasma state of matter has not been addressed.

So, the into the mountain is right out.

I am...having trouble envisioning the freezing of the flow of blood to the brain in a way that would have that result. One would imagine that it would just be lethal effectively instantly.

Regardless, this is canon for him being able to use his power to cause pain, not to kill. Yes, it SHOULD kill if it works via physics...but evidently that's not the case.

He can kill with it. He was making a threat there that he could but wouldn't. since you know Killing Emma in that scene would be a bad thing.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-28, 03:00 PM

He can kill with it. He was making a threat there that he could but wouldn't. since you know Killing Emma in that scene would be a bad thing.

Well, right, superheroes not killing and all that. I sort of wonder at white Emma doesn't go crystal form...but I guess context might explain it*. Anyway, the point is that, biologically, freezing someones blood en-route to the brain doesn't do that. You don't have pain receptors in your brain. You stop receiving oxygen to the brain, and bam, it's lights out instantly. You will die *very* fast unless it's restored. I'm not even going to get into the possible biological implications of freezing and then unfreezing blood(yay, burst cells), but this is literally not a logical thing.

So...the power as shown doesn't at all correlate with the ability to kill, and ends up being just confusing.

*I presume it's from the series where she basically hijacks him for a while. I haven't read that in a minute, and thus, am very fuzzy on the details.

Devonix

2011-12-28, 03:07 PM

Well, right, superheroes not killing and all that. I sort of wonder at white Emma doesn't go crystal form...but I guess context might explain it*. Anyway, the point is that, biologically, freezing someones blood en-route to the brain doesn't do that. You don't have pain receptors in your brain. You stop receiving oxygen to the brain, and bam, it's lights out instantly. You will die *very* fast unless it's restored. I'm not even going to get into the possible biological implications of freezing and then unfreezing blood(yay, burst cells), but this is literally not a logical thing.

So...the power as shown doesn't at all correlate with the ability to kill, and ends up being just confusing.

*I presume it's from the series where she basically hijacks him for a while. I haven't read that in a minute, and thus, am very fuzzy on the details.

Yeah that was one of the first times he's done it but for some time now. And he's threatened to freeze someone's heart before. I'm just trying to show that its something he's admitted being able to do. Its a Canon ability.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/81/xmenn41p143oa.jpg/ he're him flash freezing someone from the inside out to actually kill them.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-28, 03:21 PM

Devonix

2011-12-28, 06:48 PM

Devonix

2011-12-28, 07:58 PM

ok been looking around and apparently he can make full ice battalions now.

Traab

2011-12-28, 09:49 PM

Devonix

2011-12-29, 09:22 AM

Well that just helps skew things further in his favor. Now azazel has to do his insta teleport trick repeatedly until he finds the right one, likely taking at least SOME damage each time. Icemans control over his powers are so strong, and so perfectly controlled that he can chill the blood flow to your brain enough to scare the crap out of you without knocking you out or killing you. He can freeze you from the inside out like a freaking reverse microwave or something, instantly. Unless azazel is operating on nanosecond time, he is going to die, space suit or not.

and during that comic he's speaking through each of the ice bodies and they are operating both in groups and individually all over the Mansion. He even starts sentences in one of them and finishes them in another body. And one of them being destroyed has no effect on the whole of them. One's even decintigrated just for a joke.

Low-Key

2011-12-29, 02:57 PM

So, what are the limits of his power then? We know that Azazel almost certainly has to be touching you to teleport you( the whole circle thing is a special affair and requires preparation, so it's not likely to be extremely relevant to a fight). Where are the bounds of what Iceman can't do?

There are none pretty much. That's a huge factor that people are overlooking due to the rules of "vs" or because they are unfamiliar with Iceman or just prefer Azazel.

He doesn't "emanate cold" he simply causes whatever to be colder (despite this not being shown very well most of the time. It is occasionally shown)effectively bypassing any insulation cause the "coldness" has been magiced into coming from inside it anyway. Also his body will reflexively take any form needed to keep him alive whether he is aware of the danger or not.

Also note:
Rules: Has to be a straight up fight. Bampf in and stab while sleeping does not count.
(Although due to the whole reflexive defense thing I don't think that actually matters) So Iceman is aware presumably that they are fighting, and he knows who Azazel is. So he can multi body or perma cold ahead of time. (Ahead of time could be the 3 seconds Azazel takes teleporting to gather supplies cause Iceman's powers pretty much work at instant speed unless plot is slowing him down for dramatic effect)

Now I don't know alot about Azazel (some but not alot) and I'm an Iceman fanboy so I'm a bit biased (Also a nightcrawler fanboy hence some knowledge of dear old dad).

Let's take an in depth view at Azazel according to wikipedia everything's been pretty much covered except:
"In recent times it has been rumored that Azazel is actually a demon, or at least holds the blood of one. Many mystical beings such as Mephisto and Blackheart have made slight references to the leader of the Neyaphem to be much more than he seemed and had a strange set of 'ties' to mortals."
So he might be more than just " Neyaphem" and be a bit real demon... which may be bad for him. Iceman's iceform was blessed to act as holy water. Now odds are that will fade or whatever (most likely be forgotten by writers or blown off as irrelevant) but it should be considered in this IMO as we're talking about "both fully powered" and being part demon is a plus for Azazel and being made of holywater is a plus for Iceman (what're the odds of that though!)

And with all that rambling I'm going to have to give it to Iceman. Azazel needs to teleport him fast enough that he doesn't get the chance to leave a bit of consciousness behind, which I find unlikely. Most likely he wouldn't go right away at Iceman as he would want to find a way to survive, but he could pull off a draw if he immediately went for it, unless we grant holy water vs demon the surprise of grabbing holy water would stun him briefly which would give Iceman the opportunity to react.

One exception being the X factor of Azazel that I'm unfamiliar with. His magic. Teleport somewhere safe cast a spell that makes you impervious to cold and methodically teleport all the Iceman bodies into the sun or a blackhole or something (I would count freezing the sun as a win for Azazel anyway, no it doesn't trap or kill Iceman but he's a hero and that drestroys the world. Also, I doubt Iceman could do it quickly enough to survive anyway if teleported somewhat close)

Movie version is Azazel no contest :smallsigh:

Tyndmyr

2011-12-30, 08:01 AM

Yeah, the movie versions were mostly an afterthought because it got brought up in the IRL argument...both of them are significantly weaker in the movies, but teleportation in the movies is still godly.

I'm not really sure how well defined Azazel's magic is. I mean, for the most part, Azazel is a plot device for Nightcrawler's backstory/to give him screen time, so Azazel has fairly little face time compared to say, Iceman, and his powers are correspondingly less well explored. I don't recall any particular anti-cold spells, though I suppose anything anti-water would also be of note. If there's anything iceman needs, it's water. Uncanny Xmen....429 was it? There was a 4-6 issue spread that involved some Azazel/Iceman interaction, but it was mostly indirect, so it's not a definitive answer. That said, it was not a particularly good time for Iceman. Being portaled to hell(Brimstone Dimension, w/e) evidently means no water, so that's a bad day.

I'm hoping someone more knowledgeable about Azazel than I will have some references detailing the limits of the magic powers, but so far as I know, it's been the once over lightly treatment for various plot devices.

I do agree that the strange references mean there's something else as of yet unsubscribed about Azazel...but I can't really say what it is for certain, or how relevant it is to a matchup. It might be something that actually weakens him, as you say, or it could strengthen him, or be entirely irrelevant. There's really just no way to know.

Anteros

2011-12-31, 08:56 PM

We can't even artificially create absolute zero temperature, how do we have material that can insulate someone from it? And what materials are these?

[/irony]

Umm...anything that insulates heat? A space suit would work fine since the total contact only needs to be about half of a second. Heck, considering how short the contact has to be, an exceptionally thick pair of gloves should suffice. Do you realize how cold space is? Do you really think the extra few degrees of cold are going to make that much difference? Also, if Bobby really does cool down to absolute zero...shouldn't his own molecular activity stop? Obviously it works differently in the comic than it would in real life.

People touch and damage Iceman all the time in the comics. Pretending that it's impossible for an opponent to touch him for even half a second is ridiculous considering it's disproved in basically every single Iceman comic ever. Also, even in the movie (which is the only way I'm familiar with Azazel by the way) he's shown to be able to teleport people who are simply touching someone he is touching. I doubt he would have a problem teleporting with a suit.

Traab

2011-12-31, 09:08 PM

Umm...anything that insulates heat? A space suit would work fine since the total contact only needs to be about half of a second. Heck, considering how short the contact has to be, an exceptionally thick pair of gloves should suffice. Do you realize how cold space is? Do you really think the extra few degrees of cold are going to make that much difference? Also, if Bobby really does cool down to absolute zero...shouldn't his own molecular activity stop? Obviously it works differently in the comic than it would in real life.

People touch and damage Iceman all the time in the comics. Pretending that it's impossible for an opponent to touch him for even half a second is ridiculous considering it's disproved in basically every single Iceman comic ever. Also, even in the movie (which is the only way I'm familiar with Azazel by the way) he's shown to be able to teleport people who are simply touching someone he is touching. I doubt he would have a problem teleporting with a suit.

Except that he is also shown to be able to instantly freeze someone to death from the inside out. Not quickly, not really fast, not in seconds flat, INSTANTLY. The guy died before he even knew he was under attack, and it was done from the inside out. So insisting on sticking to the whole half second port route turns this into a twitch fest. Combine that with his ability to create dozens of autonomous clones with his abilities, and you dont have a good recipe for azazel to win, even with this awesome space suit.

Anteros

2011-12-31, 09:22 PM

Except that he is also shown to be able to instantly freeze someone to death from the inside out. Not quickly, not really fast, not in seconds flat, INSTANTLY. The guy died before he even knew he was under attack, and it was done from the inside out. So insisting on sticking to the whole half second port route turns this into a twitch fest. Combine that with his ability to create dozens of autonomous clones with his abilities, and you dont have a good recipe for azazel to win, even with this awesome space suit.

Which would be fine. If Azazel's power didn't specifically give him the ability to initiate combat and retreat at will. I'm fine with saying that in a straight fight, where both participants got prep time Iceman would win. Azazel would never actually do that though, so it's a pointless discussion. He'd just teleport half the world away and wait for Bobby to let his guard down.

Traab

2011-12-31, 09:30 PM

Which would be fine. If Azazel's power didn't specifically give him the ability to initiate combat and retreat at will. I'm fine with saying that in a straight fight, where both participants got prep time Iceman would win. Azazel would never actually do that though, so it's a pointless discussion. He'd just teleport half the world away and wait for Bobby to let his guard down.

And how would he know bobbys guard was down from a half a world away? As I said, you have basically reduced this to a twitch reaction fest. Azazel is on the other side of the world. Lets say he waits 18 hours, then teleports right to iceman wearing his fancy space suit. He still has to orient himself, grab ahold, and teleport out, then let go and vanish, before iceman can manage to shove an icicle through his torso, or turn him into an icecube wearing a space suit. I dont buy it. At best it might be a mutual kill.

tyckspoon

2011-12-31, 09:46 PM

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/81/xmenn41p143oa.jpg/ he're him flash freezing someone from the inside out to actually kill them.

The victim did apparently actually survive that, although I think the question of 'how' has to be filed under 'comic book magic', basically- he's another canonically-recognized Omega-class mutant, which while not clearly defined does functionally mean some variant of "he can do whatever I want him to be able to do".. and unlike Iceman, not necessarily within the theme of cold/ice manipulation. (For sake of random reference, other known Omega mutants include Franklin Richards, a nascent god who, IIRC, locked himself out of the universe for fear of destroying it should his powers turn out not to be controllable, and Jean Grey/the Phoenix, one of the cosmic forces of the universe.)

Anteros

2011-12-31, 09:48 PM

And how would he know bobbys guard was down from a half a world away? As I said, you have basically reduced this to a twitch reaction fest. Azazel is on the other side of the world. Lets say he waits 18 hours, then teleports right to iceman wearing his fancy space suit. He still has to orient himself, grab ahold, and teleport out, then let go and vanish, before iceman can manage to shove an icicle through his torso, or turn him into an icecube wearing a space suit. I dont buy it. At best it might be a mutual kill.

Or he could just teleport to somewhere where he can observe him unawares, and wait for him to have his guard down.

Xondoure

2011-12-31, 10:15 PM

Or he could just teleport to somewhere where he can observe him unawares, and wait for him to have his guard down.

That becomes much harder when Iceman can split himself into thousands of ice clones and scatter them across the globe. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he could bond himself to the ocean in some way and simply regenerate there.

Anteros

2012-01-01, 01:50 AM

That becomes much harder when Iceman can split himself into thousands of ice clones and scatter them across the globe. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he could bond himself to the ocean in some way and simply regenerate there.

Cause he's known for doing that right? The problem here is that retreating and planning an assassination is totally within Azazel's character. In fact, it's basically his go-to strategy as far as I can tell. The things you guys are suggesting for Iceman are things he rarely if ever actually does.

Xondoure

2012-01-01, 02:29 AM

kpenguin

2012-01-01, 02:53 AM

The conditions set by the OP assume two things

a) That both players are in a straight-up battle with each other
b) That both players are playing at full power

These two assumptions skew the fight heavily in Bobby's favor.

Devonix

2012-01-01, 03:12 AM

Cause he's known for doing that right? The problem here is that retreating and planning an assassination is totally within Azazel's character. In fact, it's basically his go-to strategy as far as I can tell. The things you guys are suggesting for Iceman are things he rarely if ever actually does.

Actually not only Can he do that, he has and does so repeatedly. Litteraly melding into a body of water and traveling as water is the most efficient way of travel for him. This form of travel has been clocked at over mach 3

Versions of him seen in futures via time travel basically paint him as living cold. Not even in physical form a lot of the time. It was even theorized by Thor and the Frost Giants that he could one day become the new ruler of Jotenheim.

Traab

2012-01-01, 10:30 AM

Rules: Has to be a straight up fight. Bampf in and stab while sleeping does not count.

I think this discounts the whole idea of teleporting away and waiting for his guard to be dropped as being against the rules. This is a fight, not a waiting game meant to work like a 10 year long game of very boring chess. Azazel ports to a safe vantage point, iceman splits into 500 copies of himself. Azazel sees him lose focus and does this magical space suit port trick that his supporters are touting as a guaranteed win. He takes down one of them, but it turns out to be a fake. Lather rinse repeat until the end of days, or azazel manages to guess right in his 1-500 shot. And even that assumes this method would work, which I say it wouldnt. Ice man has been shown to be very fast and lethal when he wants to be. VERY fast.

Xondoure

2012-01-01, 02:47 PM

I think this discounts the whole idea of teleporting away and waiting for his guard to be dropped as being against the rules. This is a fight, not a waiting game meant to work like a 10 year long game of very boring chess. Azazel ports to a safe vantage point, iceman splits into 500 copies of himself. Azazel sees him lose focus and does this magical space suit port trick that his supporters are touting as a guaranteed win. He takes down one of them, but it turns out to be a fake. Lather rinse repeat until the end of days, or azazel manages to guess right in his 1-500 shot. And even that assumes this method would work, which I say it wouldnt. Ice man has been shown to be very fast and lethal when he wants to be. VERY fast.

Is there a fake? I was under the impression that they were all Bobby Drake until he decided to revert. And that therefore it's truly impossible to kick him off the earth unless you've got some major magical power.

Traab

2012-01-01, 03:02 PM

Is there a fake? I was under the impression that they were all Bobby Drake until he decided to revert. And that therefore it's truly impossible to kick him off the earth unless you've got some major magical power.

Ah, so it isnt like naruto and his shadow clones? They are all iceman and if all but one get blown up, the one left is still bobby no matter what? Azazel is screwed.

Xondoure

2012-01-01, 03:30 PM

Ah, so it isnt like naruto and his shadow clones? They are all iceman and if all but one get blown up, the one left is still bobby no matter what? Azazel is screwed.

That's the impression I got from them finishing each others sentences. It would imply a shared mind.

Traab

2012-01-01, 03:35 PM

That's the impression I got from them finishing each others sentences. It would imply a shared mind.

Any possible feedback issues like with multiple man? Iirc he had some serious problems when one of his dupes got killed.

Devonix

2012-01-01, 04:53 PM

Any possible feedback issues like with multiple man? Iirc he had some serious problems when one of his dupes got killed.

Yes but the difference is that you can't really Kill Iceman. What are you gonna do? Stab him? blow him up? Burn him? anything you do won't kill him and also won't kill those bodies. The most you could do is slow them down. Lockheed burning one of the bodies up is played for laughs.

Anteros

2012-01-01, 06:34 PM

I think this discounts the whole idea of teleporting away and waiting for his guard to be dropped as being against the rules. This is a fight, not a waiting game meant to work like a 10 year long game of very boring chess. Azazel ports to a safe vantage point, iceman splits into 500 copies of himself. Azazel sees him lose focus and does this magical space suit port trick that his supporters are touting as a guaranteed win. He takes down one of them, but it turns out to be a fake. Lather rinse repeat until the end of days, or azazel manages to guess right in his 1-500 shot. And even that assumes this method would work, which I say it wouldnt. Ice man has been shown to be very fast and lethal when he wants to be. VERY fast.

If you want to play it that way then fine Iceman wins. The problem is that it's no longer a fight between Iceman and Azazel. It's a fight between Iceman and someone who acts nothing like Azazel but has his powers.

Devonix

2012-01-01, 06:47 PM

The problem when you get down to it is that Iceman is unkillable by anyone without Reality altering powers or someone capable of either dispersing his mind so that he can't reform.

Any fight against him is a fight to trap him not kill him. But seeing as he can be anywhere and everywhere all at the same time. well...

Traab

2012-01-01, 07:52 PM

If you want to play it that way then fine Iceman wins. The problem is that it's no longer a fight between Iceman and Azazel. It's a fight between Iceman and someone who acts nothing like Azazel but has his powers.

If Azazels only method of fighting revolves around a single sneak attack then run away until his opponent forgets that he was just attacked and repeat, then he never had a shot anyways. There is more to him than just "Teleport target to the sun when he least expects it"

But lets even allow that to be a valid tactic. Iceman hangs out by some water, with a clone of himself standing on the shoreline, while he is melded with the water there waiting. Now its a battle of wills. Will Azazel be able to wait long enough for icemans attention to wander? Or will he fall into the trap and go to grab the ice clone, only to get a face full of icicles from the water from behind?

Xondoure

2012-01-02, 03:32 PM

If you want to play it that way then fine Iceman wins. The problem is that it's no longer a fight between Iceman and Azazel. It's a fight between Iceman and someone who acts nothing like Azazel but has his powers.

My point is that even if he did catch Bobby unawares as long as Bobby knows the attack is a possibility all he would have to do is drop a clone off in the ocean and he can regenerate back on earth as he pleases.

Anteros

2012-01-03, 11:54 AM

Traab

2012-01-03, 12:03 PM

I haven't read an Iceman comic in a while, but it comes to mind now that they must be pretty boring. Since apparently he kills every single antagonist instantly without fail, before his conscious mind even has the ability to register their presence. At least according to the people in this thread.

I mean, sure that's not what actually happens in any Iceman comic ever....but why let that get in the way of your point?

Except, you know, noone is trying to claim he doesnt have to register azazels presence. The argument is, that in the time it takes for azazel to port in, grab ahold, port out, let go and port away again, iceman, at some stage during all this, is going to NOTICE and COUNTERATTACK. How in the hell is that an unreasonable assumption to make? Then, when you combine it with the fact that apparently he can clone himself beforehand with no real penalty, then a mutual death wouldnt matter because while the clone body may be floating in space, azazel has an ice spike through his torso, while bobby is back at home safe and sound. Eventually a mistake will be made on azazels part, a half second hesitation too long, and he will die.

Mewtarthio

2012-01-03, 04:57 PM

Traab

2012-01-03, 05:44 PM

I think what Anteros meant was, if Iceman really is as powerful as this thread claims, then nothing short of a "cosmic being" (read: God) should be a threat to him.

I never really read much X-Men, so I'll just ask this: What does Iceman perceive as a threat? Do the comics consistently portay him as an invincible demigod who can kill with a thought (and the conflict is either Iceman vs. God or non-physical in nature)? Or are there opponents who pose a physical threat to Iceman and, if so, can Azazel work out a way to duplicate that threat?

Hell if I know, back when I read comics he was a guy that could cover himself in ice and travelled on ice slides somehow. Im only learning these chunks of evidence of insane power creep now.

Xondoure

2012-01-03, 05:47 PM

Hell if I know, back when I read comics he was a guy that could cover himself in ice and travelled on ice slides somehow. Im only learning these chunks of evidence of insane power creep now.

Same here. But as I recall he's been doing his own thing for a while now.

Edit: And by as I recall, that's what I've gotten from those same snatches.

Traab

2012-01-03, 05:51 PM

Speaking of ice slides, am I the only one who sees something wrong with that? I mean, ignoring physics, he is leaving gigantic frozen roller coasters everywhere he goes. Thats way worse than chunks of webbing attached to skyscraper walls.

tyckspoon

2012-01-03, 06:09 PM

I think what Anteros meant was, if Iceman really is as powerful as this thread claims, then nothing short of a "cosmic being" (read: God) should be a threat to him.

That's.. roughly what 'Omega level mutant' means, yes. The other confirmed bearers of that title are the Phoenix Force (the dark side/rampaging form of which blows up stars to get rid of people it doesn't like), Franklin Richards (as near omnipotent as makes no practical difference), and Legion ('restricted' by the fact that his powers are mostly governed by multiple disassociative personalities, so without significant psychiatric/psychic aid he can't use them all together or sometimes willingly. However, at least two of the personalities/powers known are full on reality-warpers, and one of them featured in one of those "this is my world now, convince me to change it back to normal" storylines that keep coming into fashion.) That's Iceman's weight class. He might be on the lower end of the class- it doesn't have a rigorously defined meaning, after all- but that's the class.

Thinking of Iceman as 'some guy who throws ice and snow' is giving him short weight, especially with the thread stipulation that we consider his most powerful depictions. Set your assumptions to 'incarnate avatar of elemental Cold' (the way the Flash is the representative of the Speed Force, and think of all the crazy ways writers have found to apply 'move really fast' as other powers..) and you'll be closer to what highest-power Iceman is (at the most extreme, he doesn't handle just 'cold'; his power would, theoretically, allow him to slow or stop motion at the atomic level. Cold just happens to be the most obvious macro-scale result of that.)

Devonix

2012-01-03, 08:56 PM

Iceman can't be killed pretty much but the threats he goes up against are pretty high tier also. Also a lot of the things they deal with can't be fixed by simply having iceman kill off all the enemies. As a Whole the X men could destroy several planets easily. But that's not what the books are about.

Same way that even though Superman can handle pretty much every physical threat with ease his comics are still interesting.

high end telepaths, Reality warpers and other such are the beings that the X-men deal with. and those are beings that Icman can't Icemagic away.

Devonix

2012-01-03, 11:40 PM

There was a recent fight with Deadpool where Iceman was just chilling out being a lake. and Deadpool pretty much falls into him. Boom there's a Huge ice hand coming out of the water and then you have a 50 foot tall Iceman attacking him. Then it splits and you have Four 50 ft tall Icemen all attacking him shooting icebeams and such.

http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g480/Icefanatic/AoA%20Iceman/Uncanny%20X-Force%2016/uxf-17.jpg

Keep in mind this is AoA Iceman though they have the exact same powers. and are the same person just from alternate universes.

chiasaur11

2012-01-03, 11:41 PM

I think what Anteros meant was, if Iceman really is as powerful as this thread claims, then nothing short of a "cosmic being" (read: God) should be a threat to him.

I never really read much X-Men, so I'll just ask this: What does Iceman perceive as a threat? Do the comics consistently portay him as an invincible demigod who can kill with a thought (and the conflict is either Iceman vs. God or non-physical in nature)? Or are there opponents who pose a physical threat to Iceman and, if so, can Azazel work out a way to duplicate that threat?

Balance sheets.

He's a CPA.

Also unruly students, since he's teaching an algebra class right now.

At peak power, Bob's a force of nature, sure.

He normally isn't. He's not focused day in and day out on training. He's trying to live his life and the more a guy works on "I AM BECOME DEATH" the harder it is to go "I know, this stuff's a pain, but you will use it all the time. I'll show it on the board, one more time. Alright?"

He's not Alan Moore Swamp Thing and he doesn't want to be.

Devonix

2012-01-03, 11:48 PM

Balance sheets.

He's a CPA.

Also unruly students, since he's teaching an algebra class right now.

At peak power, Bob's a force of nature, sure.

He normally isn't. He's not focused day in and day out on training. He's trying to live his life and the more a guy works on "I AM BECOME DEATH" the harder it is to go "I know, this stuff's a pain, but you will use it all the time. I'll show it on the board, one more time. Alright?"

He's not Alan Moore Swamp Thing and he doesn't want to be.

Oh yeah he's not doing the full on Elemental Death stuff full time, but what we are saying is that he Does do these things. These are things that he pulls out in big fights. And as the VS is stating these characters at their peak and not holding back. Thats how we're portraying him.

Devonix

2012-01-04, 12:00 AM

Hell if I know, back when I read comics he was a guy that could cover himself in ice and travelled on ice slides somehow. Im only learning these chunks of evidence of insane power creep now.

The power was allways there. Iceman and Jean Grey were allways the two most powerful Xmen at any given time. Its just that his personality allways held him back.

The moment he changed from Covers himself in ice To Changes into Ice is when things kicked into high gear. and its been that way since the 80s at least. Though every few years he learns something new about his powers and BOOM the bar gets pushed farther

Tyndmyr

2012-01-04, 01:08 PM

If Azazels only method of fighting revolves around a single sneak attack then run away until his opponent forgets that he was just attacked and repeat, then he never had a shot anyways. There is more to him than just "Teleport target to the sun when he least expects it"

Well, there's the whole disintegration beam thing. The use of teleport is to be expected, but it's not the only available attack.

Except, you know, noone is trying to claim he doesnt have to register azazels presence. The argument is, that in the time it takes for azazel to port in, grab ahold, port out, let go and port away again, iceman, at some stage during all this, is going to NOTICE and COUNTERATTACK. How in the hell is that an unreasonable assumption to make? Then, when you combine it with the fact that apparently he can clone himself beforehand with no real penalty, then a mutual death wouldnt matter because while the clone body may be floating in space, azazel has an ice spike through his torso, while bobby is back at home safe and sound. Eventually a mistake will be made on azazels part, a half second hesitation too long, and he will die.

letting go is not a necessary component. Port, touch, port is, even in the much lower powered movie version, a fraction of a second. So, it's a matter of "who's faster", which is a very, very fuzzy thing to determine within the context of comics.

That said, Iceman has been punched plenty without instantly freezing the guy re-actively. Touching him does not instantly doom you. At least, not in the comics I read. Twas much more about punching it out, using ice in creative ways for transit, imprisonment, hurling ice, etc. I'll grant, he's very good at those things, but bringing in not-actually-used powers like stopping atomic movement because of "physics" is kind of illogical. A LOT of the mutants break physics.

Consider the flash as your example. The sort of endurance he would have to logically have to run that fast is...extreme. But, in practice, the guy is not particularly invulnerable as superheroes go. So, physical invulnerability is not among his power set.

Traab

2012-01-04, 04:40 PM

Well, there's the whole disintegration beam thing. The use of teleport is to be expected, but it's not the only available attack.

letting go is not a necessary component. Port, touch, port is, even in the much lower powered movie version, a fraction of a second. So, it's a matter of "who's faster", which is a very, very fuzzy thing to determine within the context of comics.

That said, Iceman has been punched plenty without instantly freezing the guy re-actively. Touching him does not instantly doom you. At least, not in the comics I read. Twas much more about punching it out, using ice in creative ways for transit, imprisonment, hurling ice, etc. I'll grant, he's very good at those things, but bringing in not-actually-used powers like stopping atomic movement because of "physics" is kind of illogical. A LOT of the mutants break physics.

Consider the flash as your example. The sort of endurance he would have to logically have to run that fast is...extreme. But, in practice, the guy is not particularly invulnerable as superheroes go. So, physical invulnerability is not among his power set.

Now, I agree with you to an extent, we cant just add on powers that we think would make sense for them to have going by what we have seen them do. The whole punch him and you freeze to death thing may not actually happen like that, but we HAVE seen him instantly, and totally, freeze powerful beings. He focuses on them for an instant and BAM, human popsicle. He just doesnt do that normally due to the whole "good guys dont slaughter their enemies" mantra in most comics. But as this is a fight to the death..... Well, all it takes is that moment of focus and azazel is a solid chunk of ice inside his space suit. And what with the whole clone issue, azazel really is in a bad situation, as he would have to somehow be able to kill them all at once or else he loses. He has to get lucky every time, iceman only has to get lucky once.

Devonix

2012-01-04, 08:21 PM

And not only can he spit himself up with no seeming limit at the moment each of those duplicate forms have the full range of his power.

And Iceman's Immortal in ice form as far as is known there is no way to kill him.

Desintigrateing him is an inconvinence because it means he has to build himself a new body but that is something that he can literaly do in moments.

Blue Paladin

2012-01-05, 03:15 PM

Soras Teva Gee

2012-01-05, 04:04 PM

Hmm I seemed to have missed this thread when it first came up.

Winner: Iceman. No question. He's my Marvel go-to winner for pretty much every versus situation (like Flash for DC) [at the non-cosmic level, and even then, sometimes...]

Here's the relevant bit from wiki: "Because cold is the absence of heat, Iceman does not actually 'emanate' cold; rather, he decreases thermal energy." Think about that.

Iceman destroys heat. As in, Iceman breaks the first law of thermodynamics.

All the arguments based on insulation are worthless on their face, as insulation is based on slowing the movement of heat (whether via radiation, conduction, or convection). That doesn't apply, because Iceman is simply removing the heat entirely. Boom. Not moved, just gone.

To beat someone who regularly breaks the laws of physics, you generally need to find someone who breaks the laws of physics. Or ignores them (hello cosmic-level!)...

Not that I don't agree with the whole, winning thing but X-men and superpowers in general routinely break the laws of physics. Heck even Wolverine these days can't absolutely shatter Conservation of Mass.

Without and explanation its probably a bad idea to get too specific on how Iceman's powers work. Because they may eventually be explained completely differently. And it may be as silly as opening a dimenisonal portal to a non-Einsteinian dimension.

(Seriously that's how Cyclops optic blasts work I did not make that up)

Z3ro

2012-01-05, 04:12 PM

7Here's the relevant bit from wiki: "Because cold is the absence of heat, Iceman does not actually 'emanate' cold; rather, he decreases thermal energy." Think about that.

Iceman destroys heat. As in, Iceman breaks the first law of thermodynamics.

I don't think the conclusion follows from the wiki quote. Nothing eminates cold; as was stated, cold is simply a concept for decreased thermal energy. Nothing in that quote states he "destroys" heat, just that he decreases thermal energy. Thermal energy fluctuates all the time; it's what happens when you heat up then let your coffee get cold. Unless you can show that he's creating/removing heat without some work, he's still following physics (as much as any mutant does).

On a side note, I don't see how a fictional character breaking the laws of physics automatically beats another fictional character that also breaks the laws of physics (I don't have a dog in the fight, just pointing out that your conclusion does not follow your premise).

kpenguin

2012-01-05, 05:15 PM

And it may be as silly as opening a dimenisonal portal to a non-Einsteinian dimension.

(Seriously that's how Cyclops optic blasts work I did not make that up)

That's not silly. Cyclops shooting punch-beams by opening portals to the punch-dimension is awesome

Traab

2012-01-05, 05:20 PM

I don't think the conclusion follows from the wiki quote. Nothing eminates cold; as was stated, cold is simply a concept for decreased thermal energy. Nothing in that quote states he "destroys" heat, just that he decreases thermal energy. Thermal energy fluctuates all the time; it's what happens when you heat up then let your coffee get cold. Unless you can show that he's creating/removing heat without some work, he's still following physics (as much as any mutant does).

On a side note, I don't see how a fictional character breaking the laws of physics automatically beats another fictional character that also breaks the laws of physics (I don't have a dog in the fight, just pointing out that your conclusion does not follow your premise).

I agree, this is up there with the earlier post about how you cant just assign abilities to one side or the other because it would make sense in the context of the abilities we know about. Basically, if there isnt a comic or something where that specific application happened, it doesnt count for this contest. You cant say, "See? iceman did this, therefore it makes sense that he could also do this!" Or, "Ok, since his powers work like this, then it makes sense he could also do this." Basically, show us a source where he did it, or it cant happen.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-09, 10:21 AM

Now, I agree with you to an extent, we cant just add on powers that we think would make sense for them to have going by what we have seen them do. The whole punch him and you freeze to death thing may not actually happen like that, but we HAVE seen him instantly, and totally, freeze powerful beings. He focuses on them for an instant and BAM, human popsicle. He just doesnt do that normally due to the whole "good guys dont slaughter their enemies" mantra in most comics. But as this is a fight to the death..... Well, all it takes is that moment of focus and azazel is a solid chunk of ice inside his space suit. And what with the whole clone issue, azazel really is in a bad situation, as he would have to somehow be able to kill them all at once or else he loses. He has to get lucky every time, iceman only has to get lucky once.

*shrug* Iceman fights against people who want to kill him all the freaking time. It's...not unusual in the slightest. He can freeze people sure, but we don't see it as an automatic reflex that happens to anyone who hits/touches him.

Note also that death is not the only means of defeat in this duel. Being stranded in hell with no way back would be a clear win, for instance.

And yes...everyone breaks the laws of physics. Teleportation violates a lot of stuff. Magic? Yeah, I can't explain that inside physics. Got to go off what we see them doing.

Xondoure

2012-01-09, 10:44 AM

Traab

2012-01-09, 11:03 AM

*shrug* Iceman fights against people who want to kill him all the freaking time. It's...not unusual in the slightest. He can freeze people sure, but we don't see it as an automatic reflex that happens to anyone who hits/touches him.

Note also that death is not the only means of defeat in this duel. Being stranded in hell with no way back would be a clear win, for instance.

And yes...everyone breaks the laws of physics. Teleportation violates a lot of stuff. Magic? Yeah, I can't explain that inside physics. Got to go off what we see them doing.

No, it isnt an automatic reflex, but all it would take is recognizing he is under attack and reacting for azazel to die. I just dont think its too much of a stretch that somewhere in between port in, grab hold, port out, let go, port away, that iceman is going to realize he is under attack and attempt to do something about it. And when he can instantaneously freeze a person, it doesnt seem far fetched that azazel trying a sneak attack teleport into space move would be a bad idea. Especially with the ice clones involved.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-09, 01:04 PM

We covered the stranding. Clones plus melting in ocean = quick and easy transportation back to earth.

Not transportation as such...more of a "haven't left".

Note that, as Azazel can effectively scry on people from hell without limit, this trick is highly unlikely to take Azazel by surprise.

Traab

2012-01-09, 01:18 PM

Not transportation as such...more of a "haven't left".

Note that, as Azazel can effectively scry on people from hell without limit, this trick is highly unlikely to take Azazel by surprise.

True, which means he wouldnt even bother with trying it then.

Tyndmyr

2012-01-09, 03:03 PM

True, which means he wouldnt even bother with trying it then.

Assuming perfect knowledge. Azazel, having a built in means of collecting info, is more likely to have good information about iceman's capabilities than the reverse, but neither is guaranteed to have perfect knowledge.

We can assume they have a general idea of powers from having met before, but the scrying in particular is something that I don't know that Iceman is aware of.

Traab

2012-01-09, 03:05 PM

Assuming perfect knowledge. Azazel, having a built in means of collecting info, is more likely to have good information about iceman's capabilities than the reverse, but neither is guaranteed to have perfect knowledge.

We can assume they have a general idea of powers from having met before, but the scrying in particular is something that I don't know that Iceman is aware of.

No, I mean, azazel would know iceman has done his clone in reserve thing, so would be unlikely to try the whole "Drop him off in hell" technique since it would be ineffective against him.

Xondoure

2012-01-09, 10:41 PM

Plus dropping off a being of holy water in hell is likely to get him in trouble.

The Extinguisher

2012-01-10, 12:50 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if Iceman just had a clone waiting at the bottom of the ocean always, just in case. I know it's what I'd do.

Devonix

2012-01-10, 01:21 AM

Plus dropping off a being of holy water in hell is likely to get him in trouble.

What I'd like to know is if Iceman is Permenently considered holy water or if that was just that particular body.

Remember whenever Iceman goes into ice form he's essentually creating an entirely new physical form for his mind to inhabit. its why he can split himself up. He should in fact be able to turn each of his ice bodies into a full flesh body whenever he wants. Since they're all him. Whenever Iceman gets blown up or melted he all ways makes a new body by gathering in whatever moisture is in the air.

Eyes Ears all of that stuff is just because its how he's used to experiencing things he doesn't really need them. This has been brought up before in universe I belive.

Xondoure

2012-01-10, 02:14 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if Iceman just had a clone waiting at the bottom of the ocean always, just in case. I know it's what I'd do.

My theory was he just melted one in with the ocean. That way he could be almost anywhere on earth instantly.

What I'd like to know is if Iceman is Permenently considered holy water or if that was just that particular body.

Remember whenever Iceman goes into ice form he's essentually creating an entirely new physical form for his mind to inhabit. its why he can split himself up. He should in fact be able to turn each of his ice bodies into a full flesh body whenever he wants. Since they're all him. Whenever Iceman gets blown up or melted he all ways makes a new body by gathering in whatever moisture is in the air.

Eyes Ears all of that stuff is just because its how he's used to experiencing things he doesn't really need them. This has been brought up before in universe I belive.

I'm not an expert on holy water but to my understanding mixing normal water in with holy water makes all of it holy water. Which would imply permanent devil slaying. Now that may be a bit of a stretch but if both players are fighting at full strength I feel it is safe to include it.