Damage in 4e

[DoctorGlock]

Ok, this is going to be a long one probably...

So, I am a long time 3.5 player and people back home are starting to get tired of the imbalance and complexity, alot of them are talking about 4e being a better system, so a while back I skimmed the books and noticed some things, things that are probably flawed and so I'm asking you to help me understand why they are flawed.

Note, I am currently 6000+ miles from my books or barnes and noble, so my knowledge is based on a quick flip through for 6+ months ago

First thing I noticed is what seemed like an upward swing in general HP. You get a flat amount+con per level. Ok, no randomness, nice.

Monsters seemed to have tons of HP. Aboleth, which I think was a 7-9 level encounter had about 200 or so HP. The tarrasque at 30ish had around 1300. Ok, so things are a tad beefy.

I decided to skim through the powers. A warlock's highest level blast, a daily, did something like 7d10+cha... vs 1300... which seems pretty piddly. The warlock is labeled as a striker, so I assume they should be dropping enough damage to turn things into paste. But a 30th level warlock seems to have problems turning a lvl 7 enemy into chunky salsa.

So, tell me I am wrong and explain to me how to nuke things in 4e. At heart I have always been a simple player, nuke happy, bring on the fireballs, loads of damage and whatnot, but what seems like a very high HP and very low damage environment immediately turned me away from 4e. Combats look like they will take upwards of 20 rounds to resolve, which would bore me to tears.

(note, not just arcane striking, but in general damage. also arcane warrior type classes, which are my favorite)

[Greenish]

First thing I noticed is what seemed like an upward swing in general HP. You get a flat amount+con per level.You don't get Con per level, you get Con score (not modifier) to HP once, plus your fixed amount per level.

[Oracle_Hunter]

So, tell me I am wrong and explain to me how to nuke things in 4e. At heart I have always been a simple player, nuke happy, bring on the fireballs, loads of damage and whatnot, but what seems like a very high HP and very low damage environment immediately turned me away from 4e. Combats look like they will take upwards of 20 rounds to resolve, which would bore me to tears.
It would take you 20 turns to resolve an Encounter, but it will only take your party 4-5. That's the main thing in 4e -- no more one-manning Encounters. Everyone deals damage, so monsters need to be able to take focus-fire from an entire party, not just one guy.

As far as Arcane Strikers... the Swordmage actually can have an impressive DPR for a Defender. Still Rogues & Rangers continue to top the Striker List.

Sorcerers are OK, I guess -- I never cottoned to them myself.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, the idea of killing a tough monster in one round is pretty much gone from 4E. That's not really a flaw so much as a design feature.

[Kurald Galain]

Monsters seemed to have tons of HP. Aboleth, which I think was a 7-9 level encounter had about 200 or so HP. The tarrasque at 30ish had around 1300. Ok, so things are a tad beefy.

I decided to skim through the powers. A warlock's highest level blast, a daily, did something like 7d10+cha... vs 1300... which seems pretty piddly.

First, characters get lots of damage modifiers over time (such as from their equipment), so a more realistic figure for that damage should be 7d10+cha+50. As a result, the powers with the most damage dice tend to be pretty bad, since damage dice aren't what's important (when you're high level, the level-1 ranger power Twin Strike would deal 2d10 +2x dex +100).

Second, by design, a decent striker will require four hits to kill an ordinary equal-level enemy. A highly optimized striker can do more, but overall you won't be able to nuke anything in 4E, except for minions (which are enemies with one hit point each).

Third, the tarrasque is a solo, which counts as four regular enemies. That said, combat against higher-level monsters, especially solos, can easily turn into a grind. This gets better with the third monster manual.

[MeeposFire]

To give you an idea you can use this build called shoot to thrill. It is an optimized ranged ranger.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/26335941/Shoot_to_Thrill

The build averages about 92 DPR (damage per round) or 113 with prime shot (a conditional accuracy boost) at will.

It averages over 382 damage on an encounter nova (no daily powers) in one round.

Using a daily nova you can do over 731 damage on average.

Note all damage is accounting for accuracy (if they all were to hit they would be much higher).

Just so you know you can get higher but this is a nice vanilla ranger build.

As you can see one ranger can bloody the solo in one round on its own. Combine with another character or two you should take out that solo in a round or two (if you miss of course it takes longer). This is also why more recent encounter design suggests not making solos be alone.

[KillianHawkeye]

First, characters get lots of damage modifiers over time (such as from their equipment), so a more realistic figure for that damage should be 7d10+cha+50. As a result, the powers with the most damage dice tend to be pretty bad, since damage dice aren't what's important (when you're high level, the level-1 ranger power Twin Strike would deal 2d10 +2x dex +100).

Damn, I'd love to know how you're getting +50 to damage there! Admittedly, I've never played passed the heroic tier, but that seems a tad excessive.

[DoctorGlock]

Ok, that sounds a bit better. Is there as much ability to optimize 4e as 3.5? My group generally prefers combats to be over within 2-3 rounds (including solo bosses) and that's the power paradigm I've grown comfortable with.

You mentioned alot of the damage being based in item choices- is it possible to make a gear independent character in 4e? I have always disliked the idea of a character's strength being based in shiny glowing toys.

Maybe I should have titled this "explain 4e" because it's a pretty big change. What options are there for non damage utility for someone like the swordmage? In 3.5 i could fly around, dispel people and teleport, can things like this be done in 4e? Or if I build for damage I can only damage?

[Surrealistik]

Keep in mind that 4e design has come a long way since the Tarrasque; HP, particularly solo HP has been lessened as were defenses.

Solos now have 4x Standard HP rather than 5x.

Also, Strikers by design are supposed to take down a Standard of equal level in roughly 4 turns. Non-strikers take about 50% longer. Thus assuming a 5 man party with 2 strikers, an equal level solo built to current specifications (standard HP * 4) should probably take around 4 turns to dispatch on average:

((6*3+4*2)/5 [Average # of turns for 1 party member to kill 1 standard] *4/5 [Standard HPs/# of Party Members])=4.16

If you want to take down equal level solo bosses in about 2.5 turns, your strikers need to down standards in 2 turns on average, and your non-strikers need to down them in 4:

((4*3+2*2)/5 *4/5)=2.56

And it's really not possible to make a truly item independent character (alternate inherent bonus rules excepted), except maybe with Lazy builds that attack through others, and they're indirectly item dependent, and still rely on items to shore up their defenses.

[kieza]

Okay, there are a few parts to this: first of all, a typical 4e encounter is based around having an equal number of PCs and monsters. A typical monster has roughly as many HP as an equal-level PC (a bit more, actually, but they generally don't have access to healing). A striker is very capable of liquefying such a "standard" monster. The Tarrasque, and I suspect also the Aboleth, are "solo" monsters meant to challenge an entire party by themselves; you shouldn't expect to kill one of them in a few rounds.

That 7d10+Cha? If the warlock is moderately well built, it'll be

7d10 (38.5)
+ 3d8 (13.5, from the warlock's Curse)
+ 8 (Charisma modifier at level 30)
+ 6 (Enhancement bonus from an implement)
= 66 damage. A typical level 30 monster has around 260 HP; you can bring one down in about 4 hits.

Now, there are a few more things to think about:
At level 30, you have access to lots and lots of extra abilities. You will have an assortment of feats which add damage or functionality to your powers. It's trivial to squeeze 3-5 more damage out of your feats at level 30, more if you have a splatbook or two. You can use an action point and take another standard action, doubling your damage in that round. You may (should) have some powers that take only a minor action to use. Your implement may very well have some power that can boost your damage output. And your party will be giving you even more bonuses, especially if you have a Leader.
Second, a Warlock is not the highest-damage striker. It actually has a lot of control elements to it, so while it may not kill things as fast as a Ranger, they will wish they were dead.
Third, a Warlock also has a fair assortment of area powers. They don't do as much damage, but you'll be doing more damage total if you get multiple creatures in range.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Maybe I should have titled this "explain 4e" because it's a pretty big change. What options are there for non damage utility for someone like the swordmage? In 3.5 i could fly around, dispel people and teleport, can things like this be done in 4e? Or if I build for damage I can only damage?
Well, Assault Swordmages get to teleport and free-attack a chosen enemy one per round so there's that. Additionally, Eladrin can Teleport 5 squares once per Encounter.

Honestly, it's better to just get in there and play some 4e. Nearly all classes are Tier III and the range of effectiveness from "not optimized" and "well optimized" is not that large (N.B. this means there are few "traps" to fall into). Few characters are one-trick ponies (the skill system is nicer to everyone) so don't worry too much about making one.

[tcrudisi]

Ok, that sounds a bit better. Is there as much ability to optimize 4e as 3.5? My group generally prefers combats to be over within 2-3 rounds (including solo bosses) and that's the power paradigm I've grown comfortable with.

No, there's not as much ability to optimize. In 3.5 if you look at the extreme ends, you get Pun-Pun. In 4e, if you look at the extreme ends, you can do maybe 4000 damage in one round. There's nothing similar.

BUT - the real question is, "Is optimization still alive and well?" Absolutely it is. But if you plan on playing a character that can function by itself without party support? You will fail. This is a team-game and the mechanics of the game force it to be co-op. I don't care how much you optimize, you will not be able to play without a group to help you.


You mentioned alot of the damage being based in item choices- is it possible to make a gear independent character in 4e? I have always disliked the idea of a character's strength being based in shiny glowing toys.

It's very easy to make a gear-independent character. The rules are done in ... DMG2? Now, there are a lot of items in 4e and they do some cool stuff.


Maybe I should have titled this "explain 4e" because it's a pretty big change. What options are there for non damage utility for someone like the swordmage? In 3.5 i could fly around, dispel people and teleport, can things like this be done in 4e? Or if I build for damage I can only damage?

There's so much more utility for non-strikers. You can do almost everything you did in 3.5. Some things are gone, but if you know where to look, it's there. Look primarily at utility powers, items and rituals.

[DoctorGlock]

Ok, one more question before I return to the fallout 3 binge inspired by the ranger guide

Lets say i wanted to make some sort of arcane warrior

Lets say I want heavily optimized damage, followed by mobility and general utility

Lets say we are working off level 5

How would I go about doing this? Obviously this will not be until I return home where someone is going to be running a game in a month or so.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ok, one more question before I return to the fallout 3 binge inspired by the ranger guide

Lets say i wanted to make some sort of arcane warrior

Lets say I want heavily optimized damage, followed by mobility and general utility

Lets say we are working off level 5

How would I go about doing this? Obviously this will not be until I return home where someone is going to be running a game in a month or so.
So... gish? I've found the Swordmage to be an appealing gish and -- while suboptimal for a Defender -- the Assault Swordmage can deal an impressive amount of damage. Not Striker damage, but decent amounts.

You can make a Sword-based Sorcerer but it is probably more trouble than it is worth. Still, there is a feat for Dagger-wielding Sorcerers that lets them swap ranged spells to melee spells.

LV 5 gives you access to 2 at-wills, 2 encounter attacks, 2 daily attacks and 1 utility. How you use that depends a lot on what Class you pick. Just don't try to do everything and you'll be fine.

In all honesty you should just sit down with the DDI Character Builder and go to town. It's a great interface and -- split with the rest of your group -- it won't set you back much.

[Vknight]

Do you want to be a melee arcane warrior. Or do you wish to be one that stays at range but can go melee for a round or 2 to help the party?

Option 1 then you want to follow Oracle's suggestion

Option 2 go with a Wizard, Multiclassed into swordmage. Your gain the use of swords as implements. So you can stay at range but if forced into melee you can use a sword to defend yourself

[Mando Knight]

There's also the Hexblade and the Bladesinger, with the former being a Striker, but I'm not as familiar as to how they play as the Swordmage. (Eladrin Assault Swordmages with access to Arcane Power can be strangely beefy lightning-fast skirmishers, in particular.)

[Tengu_temp]

It's already been resolved, so I will just add that the slow-paced combat where everything (except minions) takes ages to die is standard fare for 4e and, for me, probably its biggest flaw. A game with mechanics that focus to such an extent on combat shouldn't have such slow, unexciting fights!

[tcrudisi]

If combat takes longer than 15-20 minutes then one of several things is occurring:

1. New DM
2. New players
3. Boss fight
4. Well below average dice rolling among all participants.

The trick to faster combats in 4e is to know how to speed it up. It's a long post. If you are interested in learning how I run my combats, check the spoiler tag.

Have the players be ready on their turn. I use a deck of cards, Ace through 10, to keep track of initiative. As soon as I ask players to roll init, I'll ask if anyone beat my highest monsters init. Whatever the highest init was, I'll start from there, counting down by 1 very quickly until everyone has called out their number. While doing that, I pass out the cards in order that they appear. So the highest init gets an Ace. Every player (and me) puts the card(s) in front of them. Now everyone knows who acts when and the players should be ready when their turn comes around.

I have players roll attack and damage at the same time. I actually take longer here -- if they tell me that they are using Brash Strike, I'll tell them to try again. I take the time to make sure to describe how all of my monsters are attacking and put in little details. I expect the same from the players. It makes the combats more exciting and dynamic. While they are describing what their characters are doing, they roll attack and damage. If they hit, they've already rolled damage. Oftentimes, I can skip to the next player while they are counting up the damage. Sometimes I have to wait (if it's close to a monster death, for example).

At this point, there's a little trick that I use to help speed up combats. I'll say what the highest and lowest defense on the board is. So if one monster has AC 25, Fort 22, Ref 19, Will 20 and another monster has AC 20, Fort 23, Ref 22, Will 17, then I will say: "A 25 will always hit, a 16 will always miss." Then, if the players roll something like a 27, they don't have to ask. If they roll a 16 or lower, they don't have to ask. Boom - just speeds things up.

Now, I do tend to speed through things a little bit when it comes to actions other than attack actions. My players are well trained. They know what causes opportunity attacks and I have complete trust in them. If they've attacked and they still want to take a move action, they can take that move action while I'm dealing with the next player in line. I don't need to watch them move every square. If they move through a square that takes an OA, they let me know. I still have every player move each individual square though, on the off chance there's a trap somewhere. I'll slyly watch them move if there's a trap, otherwise I really don't pay much attention (though I do pay particular attention to where they started and where they end - because I can incorporate that into my descriptions of the monsters battle tactics).

We use rings from bottle caps to keep track of status effects. Yellow is always daze, white is immobilize, blue is stun, etc. If they do something that does an effect, they'll throw the appropriate ring onto the monster and take it off when it ends.

So, what ends up happening? Fast, dynamic and fun combats with lots of description taking place. It's easy to get into the mood, everyone knows their role and takes their turns quickly. It gives us plenty of time to actually roleplay as well, as combats are not a drag. Combats aren't easy, either. I use MM3+ monsters, or I update the monsters from MM1 and MM2 on the fly. I do occasionally kill off a character, but an average game day usually only ends with several characters going unconscious at various points and not dying.

My combats run much, much faster in 4e than they ever did in 3.5. I'm sure a lot of that is experience. However, 4e is really much, much easier on the DM, so I have to give 4e some credit. The only thing that made 3.5 faster at times was the "save or die" spells, but I'm personally glad that those are gone. It was frustrating as all heck to hype up a BBEG for several sessions only to die before he even gets to say his master plan because the Wizard rolled higher initiative and the BBEG failed his saving throw.

[Surrealistik]

It's already been resolved, so I will just add that the slow-paced combat where everything (except minions) takes ages to die is standard fare for 4e and, for me, probably its biggest flaw. A game with mechanics that focus to such an extent on combat shouldn't have such slow, unexciting fights!

+25-50% damage and an equivalent HP reduction for mobs helps expedite things nicely if slow fights are a problem.

[Zaq]

Regarding optimization in 4e vs. 3.5, I like to put it this way:

Very high op in 4e: "I do 500+ DPR, more if I use an encounter power."

Very high op in 3.5: "Oh, that? That's just my ARMY OF SOLARS. Don't worry, they're friendly."

[Swooper]

Have the players be ready on their turn. I use a deck of cards, Ace through 10, to keep track of initiative. As soon as I ask players to roll init, I'll ask if anyone beat my highest monsters init. Whatever the highest init was, I'll start from there, counting down by 1 very quickly until everyone has called out their number. While doing that, I pass out the cards in order that they appear. So the highest init gets an Ace. Every player (and me) puts the card(s) in front of them. Now everyone knows who acts when and the players should be ready when their turn comes around.

I have players roll attack and damage at the same time. I actually take longer here -- if they tell me that they are using Brash Strike, I'll tell them to try again. I take the time to make sure to describe how all of my monsters are attacking and put in little details. I expect the same from the players. It makes the combats more exciting and dynamic. While they are describing what their characters are doing, they roll attack and damage. If they hit, they've already rolled damage. Oftentimes, I can skip to the next player while they are counting up the damage. Sometimes I have to wait (if it's close to a monster death, for example).

At this point, there's a little trick that I use to help speed up combats. I'll say what the highest and lowest defense on the board is. So if one monster has AC 25, Fort 22, Ref 19, Will 20 and another monster has AC 20, Fort 23, Ref 22, Will 17, then I will say: "A 25 will always hit, a 16 will always miss." Then, if the players roll something like a 27, they don't have to ask. If they roll a 16 or lower, they don't have to ask. Boom - just speeds things up.

Now, I do tend to speed through things a little bit when it comes to actions other than attack actions. My players are well trained. They know what causes opportunity attacks and I have complete trust in them. If they've attacked and they still want to take a move action, they can take that move action while I'm dealing with the next player in line. I don't need to watch them move every square. If they move through a square that takes an OA, they let me know. I still have every player move each individual square though, on the off chance there's a trap somewhere. I'll slyly watch them move if there's a trap, otherwise I really don't pay much attention (though I do pay particular attention to where they started and where they end - because I can incorporate that into my descriptions of the monsters battle tactics).

We use rings from bottle caps to keep track of status effects. Yellow is always daze, white is immobilize, blue is stun, etc. If they do something that does an effect, they'll throw the appropriate ring onto the monster and take it off when it ends.

So, what ends up happening? Fast, dynamic and fun combats with lots of description taking place. It's easy to get into the mood, everyone knows their role and takes their turns quickly. It gives us plenty of time to actually roleplay as well, as combats are not a drag. Combats aren't easy, either. I use MM3+ monsters, or I update the monsters from MM1 and MM2 on the fly. I do occasionally kill off a character, but an average game day usually only ends with several characters going unconscious at various points and not dying.
That's... incredibly useful. I don't even play 4E and I'm going to see if I can push a couple of those onto my group. The bottle cap rings are especially brilliant.

[Surrealistik]

Regarding optimization in 4e vs. 3.5, I like to put it this way:

Very high op in 4e: "I do 500+ DPR, more if I use an encounter power."

Very high op in 3.5: "Oh, that? That's just my ARMY OF SOLARS. Don't worry, they're friendly."

Very high op maybe.

Top tier op in 4e auto-wins the encounter with a single encounter power.

[Zaq]

Very high op maybe.

Top tier op in 4e auto-wins the encounter with a single encounter power.

Still doesn't compare to an army of solars. It's not even on the same level of thinking.

[Surrealistik]

Still doesn't compare to an army of solars. It's not even on the same level of thinking.

For sure, just sayin'.

[Kurald Galain]

If combat takes longer than 15-20 minutes then one of several things is occurring:

Wait, what?

We've been playing since 4E first came out, and combats consistently last about an hour, regardless of whether they're a boss fight or not. This matches what people commonly say on forums, because "combat is slow" is probably the most-heard complaint about 4E. And, LFR adventures have two or sometimes three combats each, and it's usually problematic to finish them in four hours.

I find that the most important factor here is the amount of players: groups of five or six players are exponentially slower than groups of four. The second factor is that combat gets much slower at higher levels. The third factor is that certain players are just incapable of finishing their turn quickly, even when they've been playing for a year.

[Dimers]

... certain players are just incapable of finishing their turn quickly, even when they've been playing for a year.

Certain DMs, too. Sometimes, even somebody who loves combat and tactics isn't very adept with doing them.


Lets say i wanted to make some sort of arcane warrior

Lets say I want heavily optimized damage, followed by mobility and general utility

Lets say we are working off level 5

Since nobody else has brought it up ... if you don't specifically mean "arcane power source" you can call almost anything an arcane warrior, and quite a few can be highly damaging. A ranger firing a bow? No, that's my occult clout missiles spell. A monk sliding enemies around with flurry of blows? Magewind. Avenger's Censure of Retribution comes into play? Well, I always keep a Vance's vicious vengeance spell running.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, I always keep a Vance's vicious vengeance spell running.

Vance is not allowed near 4E :smalltongue:

[darkdragoon]

The biggest sources of damage in 4e are via charging and multi-attacking.

Warlocks are about middle of the pack as far as damage.
For melee, there is the incredibly strong Eldritch Strike and some decent powers from the Sorcerer-King Pact. With a Constitution focus and keeping Shadow Walk up you can make yourself rather sturdy.

The Hexblade is a variant Warlock. Arguably they start better but end up without the tricks of a standard Warlock.

Assault Swordmages do get to throw out a decent amount of attacks, particularly if you are an Eladrin.

Sorcerers have a melee focus, and their stats are physical, but it's limited to daggers.

The Bladesinger is a bit of an oddball Wizard variant.

Skalds are martial/arcane. Basic attacks with a buff up.

[Aron Times]

About sorcerers are different from other strikers in that they deal their damage over multiple targets. Most sorcerer powers have more than one target, and the total damage they deal eclipses that of most single-target strikers.

Anyway, my human dragon sorcerer has 16 strength and 18 charisma at level 1. That's a +7 modifier on his damage rolls. At level 11, he will have 19 strength and 21 charisma, plus 2 extra damage on his striker mechanic, giving him a static damage modifier of +11. If we go all the way up to level 30, he'd be dealing a +19 static damage mod.

At level 30, his at-will damage is 2d8+19, an average of 28 damage, without factoring in feats and items and paragon paths and epic destinies. Give him a +6 Staff of Ruin, a +6 dagger, and Dual Implement Spellcaster, and his at-will damage goes up to 2d8+37. Implement Focus brings it up to +40, Demigod epic destiny brings it to +42, and so on.

The damage gets even better when you're playing a more optimal race than human, such as dragonborn for dragon/cosmic sorcerers or drow/halfling for chaos/storm sorcerers. It's pretty trivial to get a +50 static mod or more at epic levels.

And that's just at-will damage. Encounter and daily damage is much, much higher.

[Telok]

HP = dodge points
Bloodied = tired
Healing Surges = wounds

If you do this then the damage numbers make much more sense.

Also, limit the number of players to four or five and veto any powers with multiple paragraphs of if/then/else in the Effect line. That should keep you below the 4 hour combat mark.

[Drglenn]

Sorcerers have a melee focus, and their stats are physical, but it's limited to daggers.
This depends on the type of sorcerer you play. Yes Dragon sorcerers are melee focused (the feat that lets you use ranged powers in melee was designed for them) but other types of sorc (chaos, storm etc) like to sit back most of the time and occasionally dart in for a close attack. One thing to note is that whilst melee sorcerers may seem fragile (maving no armour proficiencies) they have quite a few ways of making attacking them a bad idea (especially if you have a defender in the party to punish them from doing so), it's still probably a good idea to pick up at least leather armour though (or unarmoured agility, which gives the same bonus at level 1 at least).

The other thing about sorcerers is that you're limited to daggers (or kukris/katars if you take a feat) melee-wise so if you want a magic knight type character this isn't the best choice weapon-wise (though you could fluff your powers to making a blade of whichever energy you use when you use them through your dagger)

[Dimers]

The other thing about sorcerers is that you're limited to daggers (or kukris/katars if you take a feat) melee-wise...

Although if you only use implement powers, your damage isn't affected by the dagger's small die.

Hey, we've got DrGlenn and DoctorGlock -- somebody get Dr.Epic in here!

Is there a doctor in the house?

[DoctorGlock]

Although if you only use implement powers, your damage isn't affected by the dagger's small die.

Hey, we've got DrGlenn and DoctorGlock -- somebody get Dr.Epic in here!

Is there a doctor in the house?

I think there is also a Doc Roc and a DoctorGunsforhands

Is there any OGL stuff for 4e? It might help if I could peruse the material again but the only results I have for 4e SRD give a very terse list of titles with no mechanical explanation on the wizards site

[DeltaEmil]

Is there any OGL stuff for 4e? No.

Although there are a few free stuff that can be found on the D&D-homepage of the Wizards-site, like the complete class powers with all effects and such for a few classes that have been "essentialized". You can find the cleric (called the templar if compared to the warpriest), the warlock, the rogue (now called the scoundrel), the fighter (now renamed the weapon master to differentiate it from other builds and essential versions like the knight and the slayer), and I think the wizard too (being called the arcanist, in contrast to the mage).

[Oracle_Hunter]

Is there any OGL stuff for 4e? It might help if I could peruse the material again but the only results I have for 4e SRD give a very terse list of titles with no mechanical explanation on the wizards site
No SRD-as-you-know-it for 4e.

However, if you got a game going, see if anyone has a subscription to DDI. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/tools.aspx) If not, ask the entire group to pitch in for a year's subscription and share it -- if you have 4 people in the group that comes to about $20 per person. For that you get all the books/magazines ever published and the Character Builder (fully updated) which makes answering these comparison-shopping questions really easy.

[Kurald Galain]

HP = dodge points
Bloodied = tired
Healing Surges = wounds

So you're saying that if a cleric or warlord heals you, you become less tired but get a wound instead? :smallbiggrin:

[Akodo Makama]

So you're saying that if a cleric or warlord heals you, you become less tired but get a wound instead? :smallbiggrin:

Sounds like a football coach I had in school.

[Telok]

So you're saying that if a cleric or warlord heals you, you become less tired but get a wound instead? :smallbiggrin:

It's not perfect but it works better for me than having a warlord "martially" heal broken bones by yelling at them.

It may be better for the bloodied status to be an actual wound and for healing surges to be the total maximum of scar tissue your vital organs can function with. But HP as any sort of physical damage is just too silly.

[georgie_leech]

It's not perfect but it works better for me than having a warlord "martially" heal broken bones by yelling at them.

It may be better for the bloodied status to be an actual wound and for healing surges to be the total maximum of scar tissue your vital organs can function with. But HP as any sort of physical damage is just too silly.

That's exactly the point. D&D has always handwaved how PC's could survive things that should kill regular people several times over (like being set on fire, pierced by arrows, smashed by assorted maces/swords/axes and engulfed by living acid... in the same 6 seconds, no less) by saying that HP wasn't precisely health, but included things like your heroic resolve to continue or "luck" at narrowly avoiding death like they do in the movies. 4th ed just took it to the logical extension by having things like inspiring speeches restore said resolve the same way a cure light wounds removes light wounds.

[Snowbody]

Is there any OGL stuff for 4e?

No, but there is http://dnd4.com/phb which collects all the pre-release material that Wizards of the Coast published and did not restrict the distribution of. A lot of it is out of date (e.g. there's no "confused" status any more) but it's still quite useful.

[The New Bruceski]

It's not perfect but it works better for me than having a warlord "martially" heal broken bones by yelling at them.

It may be better for the bloodied status to be an actual wound and for healing surges to be the total maximum of scar tissue your vital organs can function with. But HP as any sort of physical damage is just too silly.

I like to think of healing surges as "Die Hard" points. Every one of those movies ends with Bruce Willis having gone through all sorts of punishment, but despite all evidence that he should be dead he's still standing and fighting. Then he wins and falls over, getting hauled into an ambulance. So from this viewpoint spending a healing surge doesn't cure any injuries, but it gives you the determination to fight in spite of them. You just need to avoid graphic combat descriptions like "your sword hand is cut off" if there's no way to quickly recover from that.

[DoctorGlock]

It's not perfect but it works better for me than having a warlord "martially" heal broken bones by yelling at them.


Clearly you have never heard R. Lee Ermey yell at someone. The dead would get and run.

[Mando Knight]

Clearly you have never heard R. Lee Ermey yell at someone. The dead would get and run.

...I'm trying to think of when I've heard him not yell. There's probably a line or two in Toy Story or something...

[Yakk]

The general rule I use is that, until you bloody someone, you haven't drawn blood. It doesn't have to be a serious wound.

Before that, your blows cut off a chunk of armor, knocked them off balance, bruised them, tired them out, made them toss up an arcane shield to absorb the attack, etc.

[CTrees]

...I'm trying to think of when I've heard him not yell. There's probably a line or two in Toy Story or something...

I saw him signing autographs at a convention, once. There was a marine, bringing his roughly four year old son to meet R. Lee Ermey. When they got to the front of the line, the gunny bent waaay down, until he was at the kid's eye level... and did a bit of his signature yelling at the child (clean version, thankfully!). Take that as you will.



First, the kid loved it, so I'm sure there had to be a few words from the father to put him up to that. Second, with everyone else I saw going up to meet him, he just chatted normally, but honestly, that didn't take away from the little tableau at all, for me.

[SowZ]

I like HP as parrying blows, as well. That way your ability to block does increase as you level, if only representationally. Blocking with your sword tires you out after a while!

[DoctorGlock]

...I'm trying to think of when I've heard him not yell. There's probably a line or two in Toy Story or something...

He voiced for that? It's always how I've imagined morale effects or Ex healing in 3.5 anyway.


I saw him signing autographs at a convention, once. There was a marine, bringing his roughly four year old son to meet R. Lee Ermey. When they got to the front of the line, the gunny bent waaay down, until he was at the kid's eye level... and did a bit of his signature yelling at the child (clean version, thankfully!). Take that as you will.



First, the kid loved it, so I'm sure there had to be a few words from the father to put him up to that. Second, with everyone else I saw going up to meet him, he just chatted normally, but honestly, that didn't take away from the little tableau at all, for me.

That is one of the most awesome things I have ever heard.

[kyoryu]

I like HP as parrying blows, as well. That way your ability to block does increase as you level, if only representationally. Blocking with your sword tires you out after a while!

Sure, and that works. HP works wonderfully well for two swordsmen going at each other.

It doesn't work so well for getting hit from behind with a crossbow. Or falling down a cliff. Or... lots of things, really.

That's a lot of why I stopped playing D&D, really. I came back when the benefits of the system, for my purposes, outweighed the lunacy.

[Mando Knight]

He voiced for that?
He was the sergeant for the Green Army Men.