Stepping on Each Other's Toes

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't believe any of my campaign's members are Giants, but if so, do kindly stay out. You know who you are.

OK, so I'm starting a new 3.5 campaign, in the low- to mid-op department involving both veteran players and complete newcomers, with a little bit of a twist in character creation: instead of getting everyone together to discuss their characters, I went door-to-door and helped each person build their character individually. Instead of asking people what class they wanted to be, I told each player straight-up that classes are a metagame abstraction and I'd rather them tell me what they want their characters to do. Basically, I decided that, since I'm the highest-op player in the group (and I'm the DM), I can both help each person find the best path toward becoming exactly what they want their character to become, and I can tailor the campaign's progression to suit their individual tastes.

(Four of the party's members also had secrets of various types they didn't want revealed, so helping them build their characters separately allowed them to keep them from the party without running into metagame issues, which forced one of the people in this campaign to quit another campaign I played in before. None of the other players here were involved in that campaign, but nevertheless it's good to keep secrets... Secret.)

However, I ran into a problem I hadn't quite accounted for: Everybody wants to be the same thing!

Of the six people I am starting the campaign with:
- Three of them want to mix martial talent with arcane powers (to be specific, two of them want to be of the "blasty-buffy" sort, and the third wants a smattering of illusion magic to complement swordplay)
- Three of them want to be "cloak and dagger" types (one of them wants to be a "shady dealer" trader-type character, but the other two want to be "assassins who walk through shadow". I kid you not, they both basically want Rogue 5/Assassin 1/Shadowdancer X with lenient skill restrictions). The two Shadowdancers wouldn't mind having a smattering of magic, either, for which I'm using the Pathfinder Shadowdancer (or offering 1/2 Assassin spellcasting instead of Shadow Illusion, Shadow Power and Shadow Call--their choice).

I can create a certain level of differentiation between the classes to make each one feel unique (I recommended the Shadowcaster in Tome of Magic to the "cloak and dagger" types, and the Martial Adepts and in Tome of Battle to the gishes), and I can certainly create encounters that can challenge a group in this range without outright breaking them, but none of this can change the fact that all six of my players are basically trying to fill the same role.

How do I create encounters that can play to the strengths of this particular group without having everyone stepping on each other's toes?

[Toliudar]

Depending on the campaign, this might be an amazing group. It would seem to work best in an urban environment - not so good for a mass-battle campaign. So some of this will depend on your desires and plans as DM.

There are a LOT of ways to mix blasting and buffing (everything from warmage or warlock to cleric with the right domain choices or a reserve feat or two). As long as the two blasty-buffy types don't build towards exactly the same archetype and personality, it shouldn't be a big issue.

I'd tell the two players both wanting to play shadowdancer types about each other. Maybe they can connect and decide either to adapt, or else work to create an IC partnership, rivalry or somesuch. Two sneak-attackers can actually work just fine in melee, acting as flanking buddies and taking on more of the enemy attention if the other gets hit hard. "Tank" is not a concept that D&D requires in 3.5.

Shady trader is how you present yourself to the world, and can have almost nothing to do with what you do to kill things. Builds I have used for "shady merchant" builds:
Straight Beguiler
Transmuter/Arcane Disciple of Waukeen/Archmage
Straight Druid (worked remarkably well, really, using Able Learner to open up appraise)
Rogue/Illusionist/Arcane Trickster
Dragonfire Adept

All the best with what promises to be a fun campaign. Good on you for putting this much thought and work into the player prep!

[Coidzor]

Well, with advanced aid another rules and three skillful characters, even if they all have some disable device investment, that just means that they can work together and severely cut down the chance of failure.

Or you could have three skillful things to be done simultaneously.

I imagine that the 3 fighty-casty types when fighting would enjoy having a flanker paired with them as well, considering they seem to dovetail nicely in that regard.

Add a bit of stealth capability to the party for the casty-fighty guys and you can have them do a fair bit of covert ops-y stuff, possibly even have them break up into three teams of two and follow different routes to get somewhere, though that would require a deft hand to manage splitting the party time-management-wise.

For combat either a smaller number of more powerful enemies that manage to evade the battlefield control for a more duelly atmosphere or something of a threat that's big enough that they can't really save and suck it with their casty abilities and instead will have to work together to wittle it down or precision strike it. Possibly a combination with the need for the skillful characters to pull something off simultaneously with giant enemy crabs which have weak points that need to get hit within a certain time period of one another in order to fully eliminate them as threats.

[Orzel]

I suggest convincing the players to take classes that can handle their chosen role while having a back up one.

One of the "cloak and dagger" guys could take some sort of beefed up ranger variant that focuses on "long missions" within their fluff and thus has advanced healing for survival. Or get one of the melee blasters to pick druid or a cleric with damage heavy domains.

I've been in an all "stealthy guys" party before and no one shared classes.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Depending on the campaign, this might be an amazing group. It would seem to work best in an urban environment - not so good for a mass-battle campaign. So some of this will depend on your desires and plans as DM.

Thanks! I'm hoping for this to be an amazing campaign--it's my first full-scale campaign as a DM (I've run smaller-scale adventures before, but nothing truly episodic). :smallsmile:

I'm gearing the campaign toward a mix, where the campaign includes a lot of urban adventures and smaller-scale explorations, and using large-scale battles scarcely (as centerpieces).

It's also worth noting that this is a 1-20 campaign, and so I have to make sure they don't step on each other's toes too much even when they are all limited in abilities. :smalltongue:


There are a LOT of ways to mix blasting and buffing (everything from warmage or warlock to cleric with the right domain choices or a reserve feat or two). As long as the two blasty-buffy types don't build towards exactly the same archetype and personality, it shouldn't be a big issue.

This is sorta what I'm hoping for--if one takes the more traditional route (say, Warmage) and the other goes for a fighter-complement route (say, Duskblade), then they'll have different strengths to play to: one hits harder with spells, and the other uses weaker spells, but as swift actions. Then the two blasty-buffy types will play differently, although the latter will play more like the illusionist (who wants to move toward Beguiler/Bladesinger, and will be made of the same stock as far as swift-action casting goes).


I'd tell the two players both wanting to play shadowdancer types about each other. Maybe they can connect and decide either to adapt, or else work to create an IC partnership, rivalry or somesuch. Two sneak-attackers can actually work just fine in melee, acting as flanking buddies and taking on more of the enemy attention if the other gets hit hard. "Tank" is not a concept that D&D requires in 3.5.

Actually, I'm planning on going just the opposite route here: I created an assassin's guild affiliation (as per the PHB II rules) that is so secret, so clandestine, that to let anyone else know you're a member of the guild, even another guild member, is punishable by death (even if you do so accidentally). If one assassin discovers another assassin's identity, and kills the other assassin, they are entitled to that assassin's rank and status within the guild (assuming it is higher). The only person that knows whether or not someone is an assassin is the guild's master, who passes down edicts and delivers missions remotely through a magical writing system.

Both future Shadowdancers have elected to join this guild. Neither knows the path the other is taking--and if either of them reveals to the other their true nature, the other may fulfill the unspoken oath and kill them. If they don't, and a third person finds out that the two of them know about each other, both of their lives are placed in great peril.

This is really just my sadistic streak showing--I want to play Paranoia with my party, without them ever realizing it. For a time, at least. :smallbiggrin:


Shady trader is how you present yourself to the world, and can have almost nothing to do with what you do to kill things. Builds I have used for "shady merchant" builds:
Straight Beguiler
Transmuter/Arcane Disciple of Waukeen/Archmage
Straight Druid (worked remarkably well, really, using Able Learner to open up appraise)
Rogue/Illusionist/Arcane Trickster
Dragonfire Adept

All the best with what promises to be a fun campaign. Good on you for putting this much thought and work into the player prep!

Yeah, I told him that Rogue is not necessarily a requirement for the character he's playing, and that there are other ways that he might choose to go with it. Though he hasn't played in a few years, I recommended the Artificer as well as the Pathfinder Alchemist (I'm really cherry-picking the things I like best from PFRPG, here, aren't I?) as classes that can fit the flavor of what he wants, plus offer up the ability to create and use magical items which he can peddle.

Most of the mechanical oomph for his goals is going to come from affiliations, such as a trade cartel or something of the sort.


Well, with advanced aid another rules and three skillful characters, even if they all have some disable device investment, that just means that they can work together and severely cut down the chance of failure.

Or you could have three skillful things to be done simultaneously.

I imagine that the 3 fighty-casty types when fighting would enjoy having a flanker paired with them as well, considering they seem to dovetail nicely in that regard.

Add a bit of stealth capability to the party for the casty-fighty guys and you can have them do a fair bit of covert ops-y stuff, possibly even have them break up into three teams of two and follow different routes to get somewhere, though that would require a deft hand to manage splitting the party time-management-wise.

For combat either a smaller number of more powerful enemies that manage to evade the battlefield control for a more duelly atmosphere or something of a threat that's big enough that they can't really save and suck it with their casty abilities and instead will have to work together to wittle it down or precision strike it. Possibly a combination with the need for the skillful characters to pull something off simultaneously with giant enemy crabs which have weak points that need to get hit within a certain time period of one another in order to fully eliminate them as threats.

Yeah, I was planning on most of the battles involving skirmishes, with the set pieces being lieutenants or people who stand out as turning the tide of battle, such as a necromantic Cleric who is using Fell Animate on the Bleakness spell (PHB II) to kill enemy soldiers en masse, simultaneously turning them to zombies under his control and giving them constant fast healing.

I like the idea of focusing more heavily on stealthy stuff, as well as breaking them into smaller groups (in addition to the regular full-size games, I am going to be running smaller side-adventures for smaller groups; though XP isn't going to be granted, it is going to be a way to advance wealth and plot, as well as to weave together several different threads of the storyline in a way that is secretive, oooooo!). It helps that the third gish is going the Beguiler route, too.


I suggest convincing the players to take classes that can handle their chosen role while having a back up one.

One of the "cloak and dagger" guys could take some sort of beefed up ranger variant that focuses on "long missions" within their fluff and thus has advanced healing for survival. Or get one of the melee blasters to pick druid or a cleric with damage heavy domains.

I've been in an all "stealthy guys" party before and no one shared classes.

I'll talk it over with my party.

Thanks a lot, guys! :smallsmile:

[Little Brother]

Illusion+Sword guy could be an illusion-focused bard.

One of the shadow-walky people could be a swordsage(I mean, they do get Shadow Jaunt and co.).

For one of the buffy-blast people, I think Warmage has some good buffs, as does Bard, I believe.

That's all I got, though.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Illusion+Sword guy could be an illusion-focused bard.

One of the shadow-walky people could be a swordsage(I mean, they do get Shadow Jaunt and co.).

For one of the buffy-blast people, I think Warmage has some good buffs, as does Bard, I believe.

That's all I got, though.

I think the Illusion/Sword guy ended up rolling his stats first, and is set on playing them (as he has a character idea already built around them); he got a high INT and a low CHA, which I think is why he is going the Beguiler route. I can ask him if he wants to make the switch, although in all fairness he's the one I'm least worried about stepping on the others' toes, because I know he has the inventiveness to set himself aside with some illusion spells. :smallbiggrin:

I'll have to recommend Swordsage to the shadow-walky people. I recommended Shadowcaster to each of them, and now both of them are still deciding between Rogue and Shadowcaster. I may end up accidentally converting both, or having both stay Rogues at this point--it's still up in the air.

Both the buffy-blasty people ended up independently choosing Warmage for exactly the same reasons, after I laid out all the options for them and explained the benefits of each (/facepalm). This might actually make it easier for me since I can build onto the same spell list and have it affect both of them, but it does nothing to address the problem mentioned here.

I'm going to try and get one to convert to the Duskblade, preferably the one I'm NOT working on a character with right now (as he just got settled in).

If not, the differentiation is coming in the prestige development later in the campaign: one is building toward the Jade Phoenix Mage (and actually wants to roleplay being a member of the fellowship of the Jade Phoenix), which has a lot of interesting abilities to work with, and incorporates martial adept classes as well.

Related note: Warmages are actually pretty terrible as far as buffs are concerned. I was really appalled by the total lack of available buff spells! I think they get Tenser's Transformation and that's it. I cannot, in good conscience, not homerule in [I]Mage Armor, Shield and the Heart of X spells as a token gesture. I'll have to find something else to add, too.

[Little Brother]

Both the buffy-blasty people ended up independently choosing Warmage for exactly the same reasons, after I laid out all the options for them and explained the benefits of each (/facepalm). This might actually make it easier for me since I can build onto the same spell list and have it affect both of them, but it does nothing to address the problem mentioned here.A cleric could work. A Cloistered Cleric and switch out his Knowledge Domain for the Divine Magician ACF, and nab some nifty spells which, while not perfect, are nice, like Avasculate, or Shivering Touch, or some other similar spells, as well as the buffs. I also think you can make an okay blast cleric.

Related note: Warmages are actually pretty terrible as far as buffs are concerned. I was really appalled by the total lack of available buff spells! I think they get Tenser's Transformation and that's it. I cannot, in good conscience, not homerule in Mage Armor, Shield and the Heart of X spells as a token gesture. I'll have to find something else to add, too.What? I would have sworn they got the Animal buffs.

If one plays that, get it into Skypledged/Mage of the Arcane Order/Domain classes/Rainbow Servant/ANYTHING! They suck otherwise.

And PHB 2 has the Eclectic Learning ACF for Warmages, which is WAY better than Expanded Knowledge, or whatever. Only way fir them to get flight.

[Lonely Tylenol]

What? I would have sworn they got the Animal buffs.

If one plays that, get it into Skypledged/Mage of the Arcane Order/Domain classes/Rainbow Servant/ANYTHING! They suck otherwise.

Yyyyyyyyeahhhh...

I think I'm going to see if one of them wants to go Stalwart Sorcerer or some such variant instead (bearing in mind the martial focus for both of them). I mean, they know fewer spells overall (which is painfully true in the first few levels), but this remedies itself in a few levels anyway, and the whole Warmage spell list is hammers, so sometimes you just want to have your trusty ol' sonic screwdriver handy.


And PHB 2 has the Eclectic Learning ACF for Warmages, which is WAY better than Expanded Knowledge, or whatever. Only way fir them to get flight.

I happen to be staring at PHB II right now. Flipped right to it after you mentioned it.

Worth mentioning. Thanks!

Eclectic Learning only progresses with hard levels in Warmage, right? Seems pretty steep for a couple of characters who I know are going to multiclass at the first opportunity anyway. If they decide to multiclass out, I might just let them do this anyway, as it's an option that doesn't make Warmage incredibly painful past level 3, when everybody else starts getting the good stuff.

[Little Brother]

Yyyyyyyyeahhhh...

I think I'm going to see if one of them wants to go Stalwart Sorcerer or some such variant instead (bearing in mind the martial focus for both of them). I mean, they know fewer spells overall (which is painfully true in the first few levels), but this remedies itself in a few levels anyway, and the whole Warmage spell list is hammers, so sometimes you just want to have your trusty ol' sonic screwdriver handy.I wouldn't. You need t know EXACTLY what you're doing to use one of the gimp sorcerers. If they really want to be a spell-throwing fighty dude, though, they could go Dragonwrought Kobold Wyrm of War Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, though, since Wyrm of War lets them trade spells known for Tiger Claw maneuvers.

Warmages only start falling behind when 3rd level spells are on the table, in my experience. So you should be fine until level six, and you can get into a lot of the good PrCs super early. Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant X is quite possible, though Rainbow Warsnake is pro'lly a bit too high-power, but a Warmage 5 or 6/Mage of the Arcane Order 4 or 7/Other casting advancement 11-7.

Remember to take Versatile Spellcaster for higher-level spells, and Bloodlines. I personally like the Penumbra and, if you aren't running into things immune to Mind-Affecting, the Anarchic bloodline, but Necromantic and Earth could probably help you out, with the SoS/D, or the buffs. Dragon Compendium, by the way.

I happen to be staring at PHB II right now. Flipped right to it after you mentioned it.

Worth mentioning. Thanks!

Eclectic Learning only progresses with hard levels in Warmage, right? Seems pretty steep for a couple of characters who I know are going to multiclass at the first opportunity anyway. If they decide to multiclass out, I might just let them do this anyway, as it's an option that doesn't make Warmage incredibly painful past level 3, when everybody else starts getting the good stuff.Pretty sure it works with any class that advances spells know.

[Coidzor]

For one of the buffy-blast people, I think Warmage has some good buffs, as does Bard, I believe.

...Why would you ever recommend Warmage? :smallconfused: The class that's worse than just picking your spells intelligently for a different role than the other sorcerer.

[Little Brother]

...Why would you ever recommend Warmage? :smallconfused: The class that's worse than just picking your spells intelligently for a different role than the other sorcerer.Because having to waste spells known on extra spells gained is bad? Because I like spontaneous casting of full lists, and like blowing things up more than charming the raging, frothing ogre charging you.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I wouldn't. You need t know EXACTLY what you're doing to use one of the gimp sorcerers. If they really want to be a spell-throwing fighty dude, though, they could go Dragonwrought Kobold Wyrm of War Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, though, since Wyrm of War lets them trade spells known for Tiger Claw maneuvers.

OK, fair. I know what I'm doing--they don't as much.


Warmages only start falling behind when 3rd level spells are on the table, in my experience. So you should be fine until level six, and you can get into a lot of the good PrCs super early. Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant X is quite possible, though Rainbow Warsnake is pro'lly a bit too high-power, but a Warmage 5 or 6/Mage of the Arcane Order 4 or 7/Other casting advancement 11-7.

I would like for someone to go the Mage of the Arcane Order route, but sadly I don't think any of them is going to look that far into it (since the class offers no weapon proficiency, poor BAB, weak HD, etc., and they're gishing it out).


...Why would you ever recommend Warmage? :smallconfused: The class that's worse than just picking your spells intelligently for a different role than the other sorcerer.

In LB's defense, both the players wanted Warmage from the list of options; they actually legitimately just want to blast. It's a low-op game, and any deviations from that fact are invariably caused by me recommending PrCs and spells and feats, and other DM interventions. The ability to fly, charm monsters to attack each other, and recognize the value of spells like Grease and Glitterdust comes naturally to you and me, but not necessarily to either of the blasty-buffy players. I'm not expecting spell choices that are significantly more intelligent than the Warmage list (because that involves book diving, and frankly they're more likely to pick spells for their flavor anyway, and their flavor of choice is light the world on fire), so it actually is a plausible option for them.

As for me: I like Warmage for no better reason than if I add spells to the Warmage spell list, it won't feel like I'm dipping into their list of spells known (since they automatically know everything on their list, instead of having a fixed number of spells). Basically, I can improve their spell list in case they don't. :smallwink:

[Jornophelanthas]

Why not put the two Warmage players in touch with one another, as was suggested for the assassin-type players earlier?

After all, the flavour of Warmages is that they've undergone rigorous training at a bootcamp-like Warmage College. As such, the player characters are likely to have attended the same bootcamp at the same time, and could easily have formed a friendship/rivalry. Role-playing opportunities abound.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Why not put the two Warmage players in touch with one another, as was suggested for the assassin-type players earlier?

After all, the flavour of Warmages is that they've undergone rigorous training at a bootcamp-like Warmage College. As such, the player characters are likely to have attended the same bootcamp at the same time, and could easily have formed a friendship/rivalry. Role-playing opportunities abound.

This is a possibility. I'm beginning the campaign with every member of the party in the same nation's army (be they conscripted, volunteer soldiers, mercenaries, slaves, or just people with wanderlust and a sense of adventure is up to them), so it's entirely reasonable for them to have trained together.

[Coidzor]

As for me: I like Warmage for no better reason than if I add spells to the Warmage spell list, it won't feel like I'm dipping into their list of spells known (since they automatically know everything on their list, instead of having a fixed number of spells). Basically, I can improve their spell list in case they don't. :smallwink:

If you're willing to put in the extra work, that I can understand, yeah.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If you're willing to put in the extra work, that I can understand, yeah.

I am. I did put in the extra work to meet each person individually to create their character sheets separately; coming up with a few spells to supplement the anemic spell list of the Warmage should be a simple gesture.

I'm already working on a series of splat support homebrews for various classes, class features, and the like for classes and features that are not supported outside of the book they show up in (see: Wu Jen, Warmage, Dusblade, Hexblade, and most other non-core casters' spell lists; most specific bonus feat lists for non-core classes; Permanency, which I just completed; and others); maybe I should just make Warmage my next installment and be done with it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not just encourage them to name their top three concepts?

Also, a cloak and dagger type can be a psychic rogue, a factotum, a beguiler...

[Psyren]

Actually, I'm planning on going just the opposite route here: I created an assassin's guild affiliation (as per the PHB II rules) that is so secret, so clandestine, that to let anyone else know you're a member of the guild, even another guild member, is punishable by death (even if you do so accidentally). If one assassin discovers another assassin's identity, and kills the other assassin, they are entitled to that assassin's rank and status within the guild (assuming it is higher). The only person that knows whether or not someone is an assassin is the guild's master, who passes down edicts and delivers missions remotely through a magical writing system.

Both future Shadowdancers have elected to join this guild. Neither knows the path the other is taking--and if either of them reveals to the other their true nature, the other may fulfill the unspoken oath and kill them. If they don't, and a third person finds out that the two of them know about each other, both of their lives are placed in great peril.

With a setup that contrived, I'd immediately deduce that one of the other party members was an assassin. Those provisions would almost never come up otherwise. And even if it took a session to figure out, just knowing someone else in the group was a stealthy-type would tip your hand to me.

[Lonely Tylenol]

With a setup that contrived, I'd immediately deduce that one of the other party members was an assassin. Those provisions would almost never come up otherwise. And even if it took a session to figure out, just knowing someone else in the group was a stealthy-type would tip your hand to me.

Perhaps, save for the fact that most of them are starting as stealthy-types, but none of them are in any assassin's guild (for now, or the next five or so levels' worth of adventures thereafter). Moreover, some of these stealthy-types will be entering, and some won't (having expressed no interest in that particular subset of stealthy-type). By the time anybody joins any such guild, they will (presumably) have been adventuring with each other long enough to be comfortable with the fact that everybody is playing cloak-and-dagger, so being secretive won't be out of the ordinary by that point. :smalltongue:

EDIT:

It's also worth mentioning that I have never made any mention to any of the other future party members that any such assassin's guild exists. It's not even a metagame abstraction to them; they have no knowledge of its existence out-of-character (and, by extension, no in-character knowledge of it). They might notice something off about their party mates (in-character or out), but thus far every player has decided to work some secret or other into their backstory, so most of the party is going to be acting shifty about something or other, and even if they worked past that, I'd be surprised if they found out the exact nature of this secret that quickly. :smallwink:

[Lonely Tylenol]

OK, I know I'm talking this issue to death already, but:

Would taking the Pathfinder Magus (link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus)), cutting out the Pathfinder spells (link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-list-filters/magus-spell-list-filter), using the CRB filter and removing Corrosive Touch, Frostbite, Beast Shape I-IV and Elemental Body I-III; basically, most of Core Wizard to 6), and adding the Duskblade spell list (PHB II pgs. 98-99, plus Electric Vengeance/Greater, Greater/Lesser Energy Surge and Greater Mirror Image) and Warmage spell list (CArc pgs. 90-91, up to 6) be a great crime?

It solves my problem of having two characters who are identical (the Magus doesn't automatically know everything on its list, but learns things like a Wizard; even if they share spells that they learn, they won't necessarily prepare the same things) without being completely one-dimensional in focus (the Warmage's list) or gimped (the Duskblade's list), dipping into too many splatbooks (I count Player's Handbook, Player's Handbook II and Complete Arcane among them, and even if I decided to dip into the Spell Compendium, virtually everything on the Warmage list is there anyway, so I'm still at three books) or directing anyone in any direction other than the gishy goodness that they wanted (Magus gets 2/3 BAB, martial weapon proficiency, casts in light through heavy armor depending on level, cool weapon effects related to its Arcane Pool, and a cool Spellstrike ability like the Duskblade's effect at an earlier level).