Will my Ranger be overshadowed?

[Rossebay]

Alright, so I'm thinking of making a Moon-Warded Mystic Ranger of the Arcane Order. Snow Elf.
The campaign starts at level 3. I've got the enhanced spellcasting, wisdom to AC, I can cast Wizard or Ranger spells of those given levels, my AC is 20, I'll be taking Weapon Finesse, I think, and probably Spiked Chain proficiency.

But it doesn't seem like I can do much.

One player will probably play a wizard, but he's got no idea as to what he's doing, so... Let's say tier 2, if not 3.

Another player seems to want to play a full caster. So far, he's mentioned Warmage and Favored Soul.

Finally, the last player will either be an Evocationless Wizard, a Monk, or a Rogue. He's really a toss-up.


If the party is Wizard, Rogue, Favored Soul, and my Ranger, what can I do that the others can't?

I can either play that Ranger (willing to take Fighter for a couple levels for the bonus feats, if needed), or a Psion/Fighter/Abjurant Champion.
I'd take Lesser Drow for that, and grab some Drow fighter trade-offs, and maybe some Swash for Int to damage for synergy.

So, MAD Arcane/Divine Ranger/Fighter, or less MAD Psion/Fighter/Swash?

Which will benefit the party more and allow me to have more fun without being overshadowed?

[Elboxo]

Honestly it sounds like you guys need some cleric goodness in there, who would be healing.....?

Dependant on your stats, you could become primary melee/secondary caster, if you have your highest stats in Dex and your Casting stat, with a level in SwordSage and the feat Shadow Blade, you get Dex to damage on certain weapons, one of those happens to be the Spiked Chain, giving you greater AC and SAD.

Your backup casting, would really be for your own uses, the Wizard has nearly eveything covered, while your spontaeneous caster will most likely be the boomstick, so far I'm seeing you have Arcane Casting and Melee covered, to be fair, if you want to be incredibly useful and cover both traps AND divine casting, I'd suggest an undead ( The ritual that turns you undead, I forgot the name ) Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold domain ( Which lets you disable traps ).

Being undead would give you better hit-dice, though people may not like you, and if the party is good they may disagree with this, but enough fluff and background story could make it work.

With the Knowledge Devotion feat, you roll a knowledge check and gain +1 - +5 to hit and damage against enemies, that with Zen Archery and the skill trick Collector of Stories ( 1/encounter +5 to knowledge check ) will make you quite a decent archer, as well as covering the Divine casting aspect, and traps.

[Greenish]

If the party is Wizard, Rogue, Favored Soul, and my Ranger, what can I do that the others can't?You're better in melee than any of them, you have better skills than any but the rogue, and your casting is about as good as the full casters until after level 10. The question you should be asking is "what can the others do that I can't?"

The answer being "not much". :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

Ranger can take care of HP out of combat using wands just fine.

If the player that's in a tossup between the marginally useful T4 Fullcaster and the OK T2 Fullcaster goes with the Favored Soul, then that player will be able to take care of resurrection and restoration magic if it's not something covered by Leadership or the DM via NPC friendlies.

Rangers can already trade out the railroady Track bonus feat for Trapfinding thanks to Dungeonscape, so no worries there. Cloistered Cleric Dip could still be nice though, especially for Knowledge Devotion, Travel Domain/Devotion and a third choice.

Really, Mystic Rangers with Sword of the Arcane Order are basically gishes in a can. Get some pearls of power, wands (some of which could be eternal depending upon your DM), and wand chambers/bracers to stretch out your casting and go to town protected by things like mirror image and displacement.

If possible, go with the Abjurant Champion PrC and get free swift and extended abjurations with nifty AC increases.

Either way, unless the party's casters are spending their resources poorly to show you up, you'll be primary melee with either of those two proposed builds.

I'd recommend the more typical Psion/Ranger/Slayer entry for the psi-gish though. Psyren'd have some advice there as well, actually, doing a search for psyren and psigish or psi-gish or gish or psionics should give you some fairly decent build proposals.

The Psionic character is going to have less overlap with the other casters because he'd be able to offer some effects that the fullcasters couldn't, but being a gish he'd also be limited in how many of those he could pick up and still be fulfilling his gishly duties.

On the other hand, the Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger makes a fine Gish and can share spells with the wizard, so there's some potential for synergy there as well...

[FMArthur]

Yeah it sounds like you built a character who is completely and utterly rigged in comparison to your party. It will probably take conscious effort for you not to outshine the wizard who doesn't know what he's doing, and probably the favored soul or warmage as well. You'll have better attack damage than a monk by virtue of having ordinary martial weaponry. The rogue could at least carve out a niche for himself if you don't try to take his job (Trapfinding Ranger).

That's after level 6 though. Until then, honestly you'll do just fine if you pick up a greatsword and whack people with the combat-oriented ranger spells in the Spell Compendium. Maybe take Power Attack instead of Weapon Finesse so you don't have to put anything into Dexterity. At level 6 when you can take Sword of the Arcane Order (you don't qualify until 4th level FYI), then you can go full wizard spellcasting and blow 'em away if you want. Abjurant Champion is recommended to keep your caster level up, and with Mystic Ranger and Moon-Warded you've given up most of the ranger features you would miss out on anyway.

[Coidzor]

Although, if you want a pet, there's always Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). Or the Warbeast template from MM2.

[FMArthur]

Actually yeah, throw my vote in for Wild Cohort as well. In combat just use your martial weapon proficiency to wield a good weapon and gang up on foes with your riding dog companion. Together with your pet it will be very easy to be useful and strong while you wait for 6th level, without spending much effort. Wild Cohort will then continue to be useful as you level up and does not interfere with your actions, unlike most other combat-oriented feats.

You could also invest in a tripping build by just wielding a tripping reach weapon with Improved Trip. Pretty easy by your level. Reach tripping is also something that will not interfere with your turn because it's mostly in the AoOs, so this would let you be a spellcaster/melee easily. Spellcasting in general is great for increasing your size and reach as well. But you don't have the feats to put into things like EWP: spiked chain and I recommend against taking fighter levels that lose you spell progression.

[Rossebay]

If I take Wild Cohort, I may as well be the only person in the party.
My Psion build, at level 3, ends up being a constant 5-foot-stepping skirmisher who builds on getting multiple hits.

On the other hand, the ranger (who, by DM agreement, gets SotAO at level 3 for roleplay reasons) has primary melee covered, while being able to heal himself, cover his personal utility, work as trapmonkey, and all-around be the perfect forward scout and adaptable character.

Just to double check, can someone explain to me exactly how SotAO works?

[Leon]

Play what you think you will enjoy, worry less about how it will compare to others characters. A group will generally be able to work together no matter the classes involved, what matters is the players controlling the PCs and how they can interact.

[Coidzor]

If I take Wild Cohort, I may as well be the only person in the party.

Well, if you're a sword of the arcane order you can actually help teach the wizard's player to be more effective by example as well as by advice as a supplement to your gishing it up.

An extra meat shield is never said no to and if you're already primary melee that means you're just getting better at that niche, and if you have a rogue in the party, he's now got an extra potential flanking buddy.


On the other hand, the ranger (who, by DM agreement, gets SotAO at level 3 for roleplay reasons) has primary melee covered, while being able to heal himself, cover his personal utility, work as trapmonkey, and all-around be the perfect forward scout and adaptable character. Fairly versatile, yeah.


Just to double check, can someone explain to me exactly how SotAO works?

Well, that's part of the problem, it's not well defined. Are they still divine-only, meaning that they're one more way for an archivist to grab wizard spells? Are they arcane and have ASF and can qualify for things like Abjurant Champion? That's gotta be determined by the DM.

Can they actually use spellbooks effectively and master one of their own or do they have to dip wizard or take the magical training feat in order to have their own spellbook? Usually assumed to be the first option just because that doesn't require convolution and workarounds to use if one doesn't have a party wizard to mooch spellbook privileges off of.

What in particular are you having issues with though?

[Rossebay]

Well, that's part of the problem, it's not well defined. Are they still divine-only, meaning that they're one more way for an archivist to grab wizard spells? Are they arcane and have ASF and can qualify for things like Abjurant Champion? That's gotta be determined by the DM.

Can they actually use spellbooks effectively and master one of their own or do they have to dip wizard or take the magical training feat in order to have their own spellbook? Usually assumed to be the first option just because that doesn't require convolution and workarounds to use if one doesn't have a party wizard to mooch spellbook privileges off of.

What in particular are you having issues with though?

Well, I'm wondering about Bonus Spells, the mechanics of learning new spells, and whether it counts as levels in an arcane spellcasting class for the purpose of qualifying for Prestige Classes?

[Coidzor]

Well, I'm wondering about Bonus Spells

You mean for having a high casting stat? Bonus Spells are still determined by Wisdom, as Sword of the Arcane Order doesn't specify a change and you're still using the ranger spell slots to do it.

Academic Priest from Dragonlance helps reduce the MAD by making the ranger's bonus spells and highest spell castable key off of intelligence. Ranger spell DCs would still be wisdom based, but most of their spells are saveless.


the mechanics of learning new spells

Well, you don't get them automatically like a wizard does unless your DM is being very nice and homebrewing it to do that. Ranger spells are automatically known so that's fun there.

As for scribing them into the spellbook, that's another thing that's up to the DM, you might be able to scribe from scrolls or a wizard's spellbook into yours... or you might only be able to prepare from spellbooks without dipping Wizard or taking the feat magical training.


and whether it counts as levels in an arcane spellcasting class for the purpose of qualifying for Prestige Classes?

Again, up to the DM as to whether they count as arcane spells or not, really, which is what would determine that. Of course, if they count as divine for casting purposes and count for arcane casting prestige classes, that's best of both worlds right there, since Sacred Exorcist's DMM on lower level wizard spells would be rather fun, and Abjurant Champion is always tasty. As is Sublime Chord...