Running A Crusader...But Hold the Cards?

[Palanan]

Is there a way to play a crusader without using the maneuver cards?

I know there are many folks who love Tome of Battle. I have never been one of them. Every now and then I look over the classes, and the maneuvers, and the stances, ...and my mind rebels.

Once I did work up a simple, low-level crusader, which I wanted to use as a frontline tank in a battle. I ended up dropping that plan, in large part because I couldn't really grok the maneuver cards and their funky mechanics. They were a real hassle; trying to shuffle them every round, when I had two dozen other antagonists to run...just wouldn't have worked. Rolling dice instead of cards doesn't seem much better.

I've never played MTG or any of the other card-based games, and I gather the crusader was meant to incorporate that style of play. I know a lot of people love the crusader's recovery mechanic; but I would just as soon drop that aspect completely.

So, is there some alternative way to run a crusader? Would it be unbalanced simply to let the crusader choose his maneuvers voluntarily, rather than doing the thing with the cards? Would reducing the number of maneuvers help to compensate? Call me naive, or even heretical, but I'd love to hear about any sort of variant crusader who doesn't need cards.

[Lateral]

...If for some reason you want to play a Crusader specifically, but don't want to use cards, I suppose you could just give it the Warblade mechanic.

[Slipperychicken]

Is there a way to play a crusader without using the maneuver cards?

I've heard of the Idiot Crusader, a build which has all its maneuvers available at any given time. Alternatively, change its recovery mechanic. Maybe give each maneuver a "cooldown", or use Warblade mechanics. You could also have maneuvers refresh in the order you used them, if you want to spam that one maneuver over and over again (This might create problems with White Raven Tactics though...).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's the Idiot Crusader, who knows fewer maneuvers than normal and thus gets every maneuver he knows granted/refreshed every round. A Crusader 1 gets five maneuvers known, and has six 1st level maneuvers to choose from. A given character cannot learn the same maneuver twice, it's either known or it isn't, same as you cannot ready the same maneuver more than once.

So you start out Warblade 1/ Crusader 1, your three Warblade maneuvers are three of the four 1st level Stone Dragon and White Raven maneuvers. When you take Crusader 1, you only have the two Devoted Spirit and one more maneuver remaining to choose from, so you only gain three maneuvers known. A Crusader 1 gets five maneuvers readied, two of which are granted at the start of his cycle, but you can take the feat Extra Granted Maneuver to instead have all three of those granted, thus making your maneuvers recycle and refresh every single round.

Add on prestige class levels, you can add extra maneuvers known to Warblade but extra maneuvers readied/granted to Crusader, and don't take more than two Crusader levels until after you've gained at least one more readied/granted maneuver via a prestige class. You could also use Martial Study at 1st level to get more 1st level Warblade maneuvers known, leaving even fewer available to be taken with Crusader, if you want more levels of Crusader before taking prestige classes.

You can google the Idiot Crusader for a complete build and tips on various methods of accomplishing it.

[Coidzor]

Is there a way to play a crusader without using the maneuver cards?

I know there are many folks who love Tome of Battle. I have never been one of them. Every now and then I look over the classes, and the maneuvers, and the stances, ...and my mind rebels.

What exactly is it that you hate about ToB and why do you still use it if you hate it so much? :smallconfused:

They're pretty straightforward, no worse to parse than the moderately clunky spell descriptions in my experience.


Once I did work up a simple, low-level crusader, which I wanted to use as a frontline tank in a battle. I ended up dropping that plan, in large part because I couldn't really grok the maneuver cards and their funky mechanics. They were a real hassle; trying to shuffle them every round, when I had two dozen other antagonists to run...just wouldn't have worked. Rolling dice instead of cards doesn't seem much better.

If you're the DM, just randomly decide their maneuver progressions in advance. Bam. You can even have them loop through the same progression of them every time for each type of enemy with that crusader build.

If you're a player, you're not supposed to shuffle them every round as I understand it, only once one has gone through the progression and has to start all over again. :smallconfused:


So, is there some alternative way to run a crusader? Would it be unbalanced simply to let the crusader choose his maneuvers voluntarily, rather than doing the thing with the cards? Would reducing the number of maneuvers help to compensate? Call me naive, or even heretical, but I'd love to hear about any sort of variant crusader who doesn't need cards.

Let the player decide once a day if they want to shuffle, if not, they keep their current progression for that entire adventuring day. At level up or any other time that the progression needs to get updated, it also gets shuffled.

[Phaederkiel]

not knowing what you get is half the fun.

seriously, not knowing what you get makes for Much more interesting combats. you cannot pull one and the same thing again and again.

[Palanan]

I can see that the shuffling and drawing might be fun for a player, if they like the notion of a little spontaneity in the action. I certainly wouldn't rule it out if a player wanted to use it.

But as a DM who wants to use a crusader NPC, it would drive me crazy. I printed out the maneuver cards, glued them to heavier paper, and tried to use them in a test run...and found them extremely cumbersome to work with. Entirely possible it's just me.


Originally posted by Coidzor
If you're the DM, just randomly decide their maneuver progressions in advance. Bam. You can even have them loop through the same progression of them every time for each type of enemy with that crusader build.

This is a good idea, and I might end up doing this as the simplest option. But I'd still be interested in a variant that allows the crusader to deploy these maneuvers at will, adapting to circumstances round by round. That would probably be a major departure from the spirit of the class, so I'd want to be careful with that. It just seems a little wonky for a divine power to grant these maneuvers sporadically, like a dodgy lightbulb sputtering off and on.

[Runestar]

How hard can it be to deal from a deck of 5 cards?

I simply slotted them into my existing deck protectors with magic commons to serve as support backing. First turn, reveal top 3 cards. Every turn, add a new card. End of 3rd turn, shuffle all cards together and redeal. This also serves double duty of helping you keep track of what maneuvers you have expended or at your disposal.

You shouldn't have to shuffle them every round...?:smallconfused:

[Amphetryon]

Assign the maneuvers numbers, and roll for which one comes up? You'd have to use different dice as the size of your "available maneuver pool" changed, but it shouldn't be more cumbersome than the cards.

[Palanan]

I've seen that approach mentioned in other crusader threads, and it would definitely be less of a physical hassle. It's worth experimenting with. Still wishing for at-will maneuvers, though.

[Cespenar]

I'd suggest the Warblade recovery mechanic as well. The existing system is nuts. The designers apparently thought that rolling extra dice for no reason is a great pastime.

[Godskook]

As a DM, just ignore the 'normal' recovery mechanic, but any maneuver you use takes 3 rounds before you can use it again(2 if you have the extra granted maneuver feat). Your players won't know the difference.

[Phaederkiel]

oops. missed the dm part.

I think I can yet contribute a little. Since one of my players took to TOB, i took to putting in TOB-Npcs as well.

Crusaders are really great (try to combine shieldmate, imp shieldmate and phalanx fighting together with Iron guards Glare, Shield block and revitalizing strike...), but maneuvermanagment is tiring.

Do NOT use dice to determine. if you have more than one Crusader at once, you will never be able to remember what they have at the moment. And you will be rolling all the time.

I think Cards are the fairest way, and the best for rememberance.

Goodskook´s method is easier, but it either unbalances the enemies (for having anything anytime) or it makes you pull punches (he probably would not have that, i should not shield block again). At least it made me.

[Godskook]

Godskook´s method is easier, but it either unbalances the enemies (for having anything anytime) or it makes you pull punches (he probably would not have that, i should not shield block again). At least it made me.

While it is slightly mis-balanced, it does so in a way that perfectly models what could happen, and thus, shouldn't drastically affect game balance, especially from a DM's perspective. It should also be noted that after round 2, it starts having negatives compared to the normal system, since a normal Crusader can drop the same maneuver in rounds 3 and 4(4 and 5 without the feat) while my suggested Variant can't do that.

[Andreaz]

You shouldn't have to shuffle them every round...?:smallconfused:

Plus, even if you are the only player other than the DM you should be able to do it while it's not your turn. It's not like you have to be a certified multitasker to do it.


Ifyou have access to a tablet, smartphone or anything like that, make a sorting software. It shouldn't take more than a hour to write one.

[Fax Celestis]

Just substitute the less clunky warblade or swordsage recovery mechanics. I'd emphasize the latter if you're really worried about game balance (ie, you have single-classed fighters, monks, and samurai in your party), and the former if you're not (ie, you have beguilers, other ToB classes, and full casters in your party).

[Talionis]

Get used to cards if you are a PC. It really isn't too hard once you are used to it.

My suggestion is a two or three Round cool down on each crusader maneuver. Use this for NPCs. At the simplest don't use the same maneuver each round and you are close enough. But for sure find short cuts to know what is available for NPCs.

[Psyren]

I support Godskook's method. Slapping a straight cooldown on each one is indeed a possible (and much simpler) scenario that can result from the intended randomization mechanic.