What is the difference between 3e and 3.5e?

[Beholder's Eye]

I am getting a bunch of 3e and 3.5e books for Christmas and have been wondering what exactly the difference between the two editions is. Are they fully compatible? Is 3.5e just a very heavily errata'd version of 3e? I have looked for a thread that explains this but was unable to locate one. If someone could answer these questions or direct me to a thread that does I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you! :smallsmile:

If it helps any, the books I will be getting are two sets of the 3e core rulebooks, a 3.5 DMG, a 3.5 MM, Exemplars of Evil, and 3.5 Rules Compendium. It's a rather random assortment but I hear it was a good deal on ebay.

[killem2]

I am in your spot, but thanks to the SRD and friends with 3.5 books its a bit easier.

The big things I can see changed are damage reduction, and if you start looking at the classes and races a bit closers there are differences here and there.

As far as I cam concerned, there is just too much content in the 3.0 realm to just dump it all out in favor of 3.5 Most of the feats are still usable, (they may not be exactly balanced) but they will still work. ALOT of the spells have been changed, areas, ect.

Exp is the same, treasure is the same, (though I use magic item comp to do treasure now).

Personally, I would stick to 3.0 or 3.5 for the core classes/races as a whole, but allow players to pick from everything else.

If something seems to look goofy, and you are the DM, change it a bit, if you aren't the dm, ask. Can't hurt right?

[ORione]

Downloading this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a) should help you out.

[HunterOfJello]

Tons and tons of small stuff. So, most of the things in the 3e books are directly convertible.

Some of the non-rules differences are the fact that many of the 3e sources had Prestige Classes which gave abilities that didn't directly expand a base class' abilities. That concept became less common in 3.5 .

Many spells changed and were updated in the PHB or in the Spell Compendium. All of the books like Masters of the Wild, Song and Silence, Sword and Fist, Tome and Blood, etc. were updated in the Complete series and Races series. Then again, not everything was updated, so there are a few interesting things left in those.

Some extra attention should be paid to the specific details of prestige class features along with descriptions in feats.

~~

Psionics was completely updated and replaced by the 3.5 XPH. The 3e material for that stuff is now not as convertible.

[Palanan]

It may be included somewhere in ORione's link, but this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) is a handy reference to some of the updates and conversions for specific feats, spells and PrCs.

Edit: I would assume the ones that are "not yet revised" are still compatible with 3.5, but likely overshadowed by later material. Create Infusion was presented in Masters of the Wild as a druid speciality, but these days I think artificers are the ones doing all the infusing.

[Curmudgeon]

No, they're not fully compatible. If you look at page 4 of your 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide you'll find this:
This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments. Those "minor adjustments" are usually a headache for the DM. So check for official Wizards of the Coast updates/replacements for everything first; the links ORione and Palanan provided are the first batch. After that, check the lists:

feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats)
base classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/class)
prestige classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc)
and if you find anything with the same name for 3.0 and 3.5, use the official 3.5 replacement.

[Palanan]

Are there any lists, on the Playground or elsewhere, of the "minor adjustments" that are especially problematic? I'm thinking that for those of us without encyclopedic knowledge of the game, a list of "revised feats and PrCs to watch out for" would be especially useful. Some of the "updates" just copied and pasted large blocks of text (lookin' at you, Geomancer) while others were full-body, inside-out overhauls. Has anyone sorted all these out, maybe ranked the updates according to how much they were changed?

[Curmudgeon]

I don't recall any such lists. Off the top of my head, the non-stacking nature of critical threat extensions could be a problem. The Disciple of Dispater prestige class in the 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness has a class feature (Iron Power) which doubles critical threat ranges, and says this stacks with Improved Critical. However, that's referring to the 3.0 Improved Critical. The 3.5 Improved Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical) says this:
This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon. That's one "minor adjustment" where players are likely to try to pull a shenanigan on you, pretending that this 3.0 PrC is giving an override to a 3.5 rule that hadn't even been written yet!

[Beholder's Eye]

Thanks for the help so far guys, the core rulebook update ORione linked put the changes into perspective rather well.

It looks to me like most of the changes were in individual spells and feats, not core mechanics. Would it thus be possible to run a game taking classes, races, and feats from the the 3e books but also throwing in monsters, magic items, traps, etc. from 3.5?

I would love to just use 3.5 and ignore these messy compatibility issues but the books for 3e are a dime a dozen whereas the core rulebooks for 3.5 cost a small fortune. From what I saw, the 3.5 Player's Handbook alone costs around sixty dollars which is a tad pricey for one book in my opinion.

A list like Palanan mentioned sounds like it could be useful, especially if it explains what the changes were. Does something like that exist anywhere?

[motoko's ghost]

the DR system was overhauled, its now x/alignment and/or material and/or magic and/or damage type instead of x/weapon enhancement(i.e +4), the numbers are also a lot lower from about 5-15 instead of 10-50:smallyuk:

[Zeta Kai]

The cover system was greatly simplified, as well: in 3.0, cover was a fractional thing, with different fractions (1/10th, 1/4th, 1/2, 2/3rds, 9/10ths, & other such weirdness) offering different modifiers for combat. Needless to say, this was a bit complex & hard to remember at the table, & thus the simplification was quite welcome.

[Yahzi]

Are they fully compatible?
Of course. For instance, they changed the Ranger - he now gets d8 instead of d10, and a level-capped animal companion instead of whatever he can con out of the DM with animal friendship - but there is no reason you can 't have two different types of Rangers in your campaign.

Also, flight is harder (higher level for long-term flight), long term buffs are harder (Bulls Strength went from hours per lvl to turns per lvl), Raise Dead costs 5000 instead of 500, damage reduction is different, a few additional spells (like Private Sanctum to counter scry, various stat buffers besides STR) are there, detect alignment became detect law/evil/good/chaos in a vain attempt to stop paladins from just smiting every evil thing they see.

That's the differences I've noticed.

[deuxhero]

I don't recall any such lists. Off the top of my head, the non-stacking nature of critical threat extensions could be a problem. The Disciple of Dispater prestige class in the 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness has a class feature (Iron Power) which doubles critical threat ranges, and says this stacks with Improved Critical. However, that's referring to the 3.0 Improved Critical. The 3.5 Improved Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical) says this: That's one "minor adjustment" where players are likely to try to pull a shenanigan on you, pretending that this 3.0 PrC is giving an override to a 3.5 rule that hadn't even been written yet!


Note that the lack of stacking criticals is a rundent fix (The problem wasn't stacking critical range, but using the high range to trigger vorpal, which was fixed my making it nat 20 only), and can be ignored (if a player wants to stack that many resources into a fighting style a good chunk of enemies are immune to, let him).

[Curmudgeon]

You can get the bulk of what's in the 3.5 core books from the Open Gaming Content System Reference Document (SRD). There's a good version here: The Hypertext d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/). Most of the proprietary stuff, like the XP tables, is the same; that's on page 22 of both books. 3.5 has a much better (more detailed) Level Advancement sequence, but you can probably manage with the 3.0 Player's Handbook for that, too.

If you're using any 3.5 books, you really should be using the 3.5 rules.

[Flickerdart]

(Bulls Strength went from hours per lvl to turns per lvl)
That's the differences I've noticed.
Minutes/level, not rounds. Also +4 instead of 1d4+1

[Tvtyrant]

Haste got nerfed. Previously it was the king of all buffs.

[Infernalbargain]

Haste got nerfed. Previously it was the king of all buffs.

Yeah, it is merely very good now.

[RaggedAngel]

Haste got nerfed. Previously it was the king of all buffs.

Which interests me, because 3.5 Haste is still one of the most useful, powerful buffs in the game. What did the 3e version do that was so much more effective?

[Tvtyrant]

From the 3.0 SRD


Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The transmuted creature moves and acts more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
On its turn, the subject may take an extra partial action, either before or after its regular action.
The subject gains a +4 haste bonus to AC. The subject loses this bonus whenever it would lose a dodge bonus.
The subject can jump one and a half times as far as normal. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus.
Haste dispels and counters slow.


Action Types
Not an Action: Some activities are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else.
Free Action: A character can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, the DM puts reasonable limits on what a character can really do for free.
Partial Action: As a general rule, a character can do as much with a partial action as a character could with a standard action minus a move. Typically, a character may take a 5-foot step as part of a partial action.
Move-Equivalent Action: Move-equivalent actions take the place of movement in a standard action or take the place of an entire partial action. The character can normally also take a 5 foot step.
Standard Action: A standard action allows a character to do something and move that character's indicated speed during a combat round. A character can move before or after performing the activity of the action.
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all a character's effort during a round. The only movement a character can take during a full- round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. A character can also perform free actions. Some full-round actions do not allow a 5-foot step.


It grants what in 3.5 is called a standard action, so casters could get two spells off a turn from level 5. 3 With quicken later in the game.

[Runestar]

3.5 tried to fix a few outstanding problems in 3.0, but the thing is that they seem to have created even more issues.:smalltongue:

1) Spell power was revised to give caster level increases rather than DC boosts. You will find that 3.5e is more stingy when it comes to doling out spell dc boosts, rationale was that in 3.0, it was way too easy to crank your DC to the point where your opponent failed any save unless he rolled a nat 20.

2) As a general rule of thumb, monsters tend to have more HD and fewer SLAs. In 3.0, outsiders had too many SLAs (many of which were downright useless in combat anyways), which artificially inflated their cr and made them way too fragile. Dr was decreased, but also made more meaningful.

3) As mentioned, haste was revised. You know you have a problem when every spellcasting foe in the game begins combat with haste. Now, haste is more party-friendly.

4) The druid was actually made stronger. Look to PHB2 for a "semi-official" nerf/errata. The bard, ranger and paladin were improved (but not by much). They also tried to "upgrade" the fighter by giving him the improved weapon focus/spec feats. :smallsigh:

5) Wizards still rule the game, but now in the form of save-or-suck spells rather than save-or-die. :smallamused:

It was only towards the end of 3.5 that the designers finally wised up to their act (which showed in MIC and MM5). Hmm....the more some things change, the more they remain the same...? :smallconfused:

[gkathellar]

This is the official list of 3.0 things that have been replaced. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x)

[Eldan]

Which interests me, because 3.5 Haste is still one of the most useful, powerful buffs in the game. What did the 3e version do that was so much more effective?

It gave more actions per round, instead of a mere bonus attack on a full attack. I think another standard action, it was.

[Dr.Epic]

There's only a few minor differences; really, mostly just race and class stuff. The main mechanics are pretty much untouched.

[Eldan]

Ah, yes. The racial upgrades.

"Hey, the half-elf is too weak, people say."
"Hmm. How about we give him a +2 to some kind of charisma skill check?"
"Sure! That should make them powerful enough."
"What about the Half-Orc, then?"
"Pff. They have a strength bonus. What more do people want?"

[Prime32]

It gave more actions per round, instead of a mere bonus attack on a full attack. I think another standard action, it was.In 3.5e you can get this with the swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) PrC.

Another thing that changed was weapon sizes. In 3e you'd have Tiny, Small and Medium weapons; in 3.5 they'd be called a light Medium weapon, a one-handed Medium weapon and a two-handed Medium weapon (a Small weapon being one designed for a Small creature).

3e also had at least two more creature types - Beast and Shapechanger. 3.5 split the former between Animal and Magical Beast, while the latter became a subtype.

[Manateee]

It's been mentioned, but it deserves to be stressed.

Psionics saw a massive change with the edition shift. The 3.5 version is a much better system. If you want to reintroduce psionic combat, check out Hyperconscious by Bruce Cordell (if you have qualms with 3rd party material for some reason, note that he's also the author of the base system).

[Lycar]

I don't recall any such lists. Off the top of my head, the non-stacking nature of critical threat extensions could be a problem. The Disciple of Dispater prestige class in the 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness has a class feature (Iron Power) which doubles critical threat ranges, and says this stacks with Improved Critical. However, that's referring to the 3.0 Improved Critical. The 3.5 Improved Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical) says this:

'This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.'

That's one "minor adjustment" where players are likely to try to pull a shenanigan on you, pretending that this 3.0 PrC is giving an override to a 3.5 rule that hadn't even been written yet!

Where is the problem? Specific trumps general. The general rule is that Improved Critical doesn't stack, the specific rule is that Disciple of Dispater's Iron Power feature does stack. Done.

[Hecuba]

It's been mentioned, but it deserves to be stressed.

Psionics saw a massive change with the edition shift. The 3.5 version is a much better system. If you want to reintroduce psionic combat, check out Hyperconscious by Bruce Cordell (if you have qualms with 3rd party material for some reason, note that he's also the author of the base system).

This cannot be emphasized enough. 3.0 psionics does not play very well with the base system, either in it's secondary systems or in it's power curve. I happen to think it works quite well as "D20 Psionics system", but it doesn't work very well at all as "psionics for D&D 3.x".

[Curmudgeon]

Where is the problem? Specific trumps general. The general rule is that Improved Critical doesn't stack, the specific rule is that Disciple of Dispater's Iron Power feature does stack. Done.
Yes, exactly. Iron Power's threat range stacks with 3.0 Improved Critical. That's done and gone when you get to 3.5 rules.

[Boci]

Yes, exactly. Iron Power's threat range stacks with 3.0 Improved Critical. That's done and gone when you get to 3.5 rules.

But if a 3.0 source isn't updated it remains valid, correct?
If so, we have the 3.0 iron power that stacks with the 3.5 improved critical (since that feat was updated).

[Curmudgeon]

But if a 3.0 source isn't updated it remains valid, correct?
No, not correct. As I pointed out, it instead immediately becomes something in need of those "minor adjustments" that page 4 of the DMG requires. Noting that 3.5 Improved Critical won't allow stacking unless it's a 3.5 exception is one of those things the DM is supposed to catch.

[Boci]

Noting that 3.5 Improved Critical won't allow stacking unless it's a 3.5 exception is one of those things the DM is supposed to catch.

And where are you getting that from? The feat doesn't reference editions.

[Curmudgeon]

And where are you getting that from? The feat doesn't reference editions.
Feats don't need to reference editions, because WotC's update policy replaces the old with the new (when it's the same name in the same category, or an official replacement list list this one (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x), or at the front of Spell Compendium). However, all 3.0 supplements are relative to the 3.0 core rules, and all 3.5 supplements are relative to the 3.5 core rules; that's the nature of rules supplements: they add to an existing set of rules rather than create one themselves.

Book of Vile Darkness adds to the 3.0 core rules only. It can't add to the 3.5 core rules ─ except with adjustments to address edition discrepancies ─ because it was written a year before those 3.5 rules were created.

If you read the ORDER OF RULES APPLICATION in Rules Compendium on page 5, you'll see it's "general to specific to exception". What you're trying to do is "general (3.0 core rules) to specific (3.0 Improved Critical) to exception (Iron Power to general (3.5 core rules) to specific (3.5 Improved Critical)". You don't get a 3.0 exception to 3.5 rules, because there was no such thing to except when Iron Power was created.

Of course, in response to many arguments like this, many DMs will make the "minor adjustment" that they won't allow any 3.0 material in their games. Cuts down on headaches considerably.

[Lycar]

Hmm... that doesn't look right.

The general rule would be that 3.5 Imp. Crit. doesn't stack.

The exception would be that Iron Power does stack, overruling the general rule of does not stack.

Now unless Disciple of Diapater gets a 3.5 overhaul, either use is as written or turn the threat range increase into a bonus to critical confirmation rolls or something like that. Either a flat bonus or make it key of prestige class levels to give incentive to stay in the class.

But simply negating a class feature is not a good idea. YMMV.

[sokbeest]

I am getting a bunch of 3e and 3.5e books for Christmas and have been wondering what exactly the difference between the two editions is. Are they fully compatible? Is 3.5e just a very heavily errata'd version of 3e? I have looked for a thread that explains this but was unable to locate one. If someone could answer these questions or direct me to a thread that does I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you! :smallsmile:

I have often found this to be a useful guide, though it's not perfect:

http://www.anmanindustries.com/anman/stuff/dndconvertable/

I think this still misses a few things; for example, I believe 3.0 and 3.5 handle experience for a heterogeneously-leveled party differently (away from books at the moment.)

For those saying that the changes between editions wee minor: that's not always the case. 3.0 bard had Greater Magic Weapon on his spell list, and enhancement bonuses on bows and arrows stacked, so that seemed like a pretty cool angle for an archer bard... but the whole thing goes out the window in 3.5 :smallfrown:

[Doug Lampert]

I think this still misses a few things; for example, I believe 3.0 and 3.5 handle experience for a heterogeneously-leveled party differently (away from books at the moment.)

3.0 when released gave everyone the same XP award based on party average level. Late 3.0 splat books revised to the 3.5 system prior to 3.5 release.

That's one problem with a version discussion. Both versions changed over time.

[Flickerdart]

For those saying that the changes between editions wee minor: that's not always the case. 3.0 bard had Greater Magic Weapon on his spell list, and enhancement bonuses on bows and arrows stacked, so that seemed like a pretty cool angle for an archer bard... but the whole thing goes out the window in 3.5 :smallfrown:
Archer Bard in 3.5 can use DFI to be awesome, though, so it's a bit of a wash.

[Thurbane]

I don't recall any such lists. Off the top of my head, the non-stacking nature of critical threat extensions could be a problem. The Disciple of Dispater prestige class in the 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness has a class feature (Iron Power) which doubles critical threat ranges, and says this stacks with Improved Critical. However, that's referring to the 3.0 Improved Critical. The 3.5 Improved Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedCritical) says this: That's one "minor adjustment" where players are likely to try to pull a shenanigan on you, pretending that this 3.0 PrC is giving an override to a 3.5 rule that hadn't even been written yet!

No, not correct. As I pointed out, it instead immediately becomes something in need of those "minor adjustments" that page 4 of the DMG requires. Noting that 3.5 Improved Critical won't allow stacking unless it's a 3.5 exception is one of those things the DM is supposed to catch.
I still don't fully subscribe to that reading of how DoD interacts with (3.5) Improved Critical. I would call it a case of specific trumps general.

There are things (well, at least one) that DO stack with Improved Critical in 3.5 - the 2nd level ability of a Mythic Exemplar (Sunyarta) for instance.

[Flickerdart]

I still don't fully subscribe to that reading of how DoD interacts with (3.5) Improved Critical. I would call it a case of specific trumps general.

There are things (well, at least one) that DO stack with Improved Critical in 3.5 - the 2nd level ability of a Mythic Exemplar (Sunyarta) for instance.
The Psychic Weapon Master's 7th level Improved Critical ability explicitly stacks with the Improved Critical feat, but only provides a +2 bonus rather than a multiplication.

[sokbeest]

Archer Bard in 3.5 can use DFI to be awesome, though, so it's a bit of a wash.

"Buy another splat book" is never a wash. Even if the book were free, I don't think this is equivalent.

In any case, my point wasn't "Bards are worse in 3.5" but rather that changes between editions were not strictly minor, to the point where some character builds don't translate. Your suggesting a different build kind of underscores that point...

[Tyndmyr]

I am getting a bunch of 3e and 3.5e books for Christmas and have been wondering what exactly the difference between the two editions is. Are they fully compatible? Is 3.5e just a very heavily errata'd version of 3e? I have looked for a thread that explains this but was unable to locate one. If someone could answer these questions or direct me to a thread that does I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you! :smallsmile:

If it helps any, the books I will be getting are two sets of the 3e core rulebooks, a 3.5 DMG, a 3.5 MM, Exemplars of Evil, and 3.5 Rules Compendium. It's a rather random assortment but I hear it was a good deal on ebay.

Basically, yes. There's some changes, like all DR/+x was changed to DR/Magic, fer instance. toad familiar now gives +3 hp instead of +con. I have some 3e core books, and while I prefer the 3.5 books, I certainly use the others to fill in when, say, everyone is creating a char at the same time.

All the 3e books can be used in 3.5. Many have published corrections for the upgrade, and there's a few minor points that are slightly subjective, but it's not a big deal at all.

[Manateee]

In the archer Bard vein, 3.0 had mundane archery PrCs that weren't completely terrible.

That's not really a system change, though.

[Tyndmyr]

In the archer Bard vein, 3.0 had mundane archery PrCs that weren't completely terrible.

That's not really a system change, though.

Cragtop Archer is 3.5, no? Mundane archer class that's actually pretty legit.

[Palanan]

Originally posted by Deuxhero
Note that the lack of stacking criticals is a rundent fix...

On a side note, I've been meaning to ask...what is a "rundent" fix? It's not a word I'm familiar with, and googling the phrase just takes me back to this thread. Is this some supremely obscure gaming term?

[Tyndmyr]

On a side note, I've been meaning to ask...what is a "rundent" fix? It's not a word I'm familiar with, and googling the phrase just takes me back to this thread. Is this some supremely obscure gaming term?

I'm assuming redundant. Additionally, for those folks plagued by typos, browsers like firefox will automatically highlight misspelled words. Definitely an easy way to clean posts up a fair bit.

[Palanan]

Ah. Thanks. I thought it was some esoteric term I'd never seen before. I was trying to figure out the derivation.



English majors shouldn't be on the internet.

[gkathellar]

English majors shouldn't be on the internet.

Alternatively, only English majors should be on the internet.

[Palanan]

Originally posted by gkathellar
Alternatively, only English majors should be on the internet.

...thank you. I really needed that laugh. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Avoid the hell out of 3.0 psionics (introduced with the Psionics Handbook). Go 3.5 psionics instead (as per the Expanded Psionics Handbook). MUCH better system in every way I can think of bar one: the soulknife should've stayed a PrC.