[3.P] 9th Level Spells in E6

[Curious]

Here's to RAW!

Stonehunter Gnome
Beguiler 3/ Shadowcraft Mage 3

Using Earth Spell, Easy Metamagic, Metamagic School Focus, Practical Metamagic, Sanctum Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, and Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage), a Shadowcraft Mage can mimic 9th level Conjuration and Evocation spells.

With Versatile Spellcaster, Earth Spell, and Heighten Spell for early entry into Shadowcraft mage, we gain the power that ties this build together; Shadow Illusion. It allows the spellcaster to use Silent Image to mimic any spell of the Conjuration (Summoning and Creation) and Evocation schools equal to it's level -1. Using Heighten spell, this means that we can use Conjuration and Evocation spells of the highest level we can boost Silent image to.

So, we Heighten Silent Image to our highest level spell slot, which is 4th level, thanks to Versatile Spellcaster. Earth Spell also allows us to add on an extra effective level, so Silent Image counts as a 5th level spell. Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Magical Lineage, and Metamagic focus all reduce the spell cost of Heighten by one, so we are able to boost Silent Image to 9th level. Lastly, Sanctum Spell makes any spells we cast within our lair count as one level higher.

As a result of these shenanigans, we are able to cast Silent Image as a 10th level spell, resulting in a 100% real spell of 9th level, of either the Conjuration or Evocation schools.

[Little Brother]

Or, yanno, we could do it much simpler at level 1 with Illumian Cleric 1 with Heighten, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell, using any number of tricks for extra turning, including being Evil and taking the Sun Domain(DLCS one), or just do it at level 3 with the Extra Turning feat at level 1.

PS: This also works without using PF stuff.

[Curious]

Or, yanno, we could do it much simpler at level 1 with Illumian Cleric 1 with Heighten, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell, using any number of tricks for extra turning, including being Evil and taking the Sun Domain(DLCS one), or just do it at level 3 with the Extra Turning feat at level 1.

PS: This also works without using PF stuff.

So, how many high level spells is that guy going to have again? Two, three? The SC Mage can pump out three 9th level spells, and then five or six 8th levels. That's not actually optimal though; on a typical adventuring day, I'd have this guy using 1st level slots to cast 5th level spells, 2nd level slots to cast 6th level spells, and 3rd level slots to cast 7th level spells, with the occasional 8th thrown in when I need it. I really don't think your guy can match that.

Also, do tell how you can accomplish this without Pathfinder material. I'd like to know.

[gkathellar]

Or, yanno, we could do it much simpler at level 1 with Illumian Cleric 1 with Heighten, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell, using any number of tricks for extra turning, including being Evil and taking the Sun Domain(DLCS one), or just do it at level 3 with the Extra Turning feat at level 1.

PS: This also works without using PF stuff.

Uh. Illumians don't gain their Word until 2nd level. And they can only use Naenhoon 2/day. (Plus your cleric is gonna need a pretty high charisma score to pull this off more than once.)

[Little Brother]

So, how many high level spells is that guy going to have again? Three, maybe four? This build can pump out three 9th level spells, and then five or six 8th levels. That's not actually optimal though; on a typical adventuring day, I'd have this guy using 1st level slots to cast 5th level spells, 2nd level slots to cast 6th level spells, and 3rd level slots to cast 7th level spells, with the occasional 8th thrown in when I need it. I really don't think your guy can match that.

Also, do tell how you can accomplish this without Pathfinder material. I'd like to know.Well, this build'd get 2 9th, and one of every level he can't cast.

Either way, it works like this: Heighten, earth sense, and Earth Spell, you know what they do. The Naenhoon Illumian Word gives you effectively DMM twice a day. You use that with your 2nd (since it actually doesn't work at level one without some wrangling) level spells and maxed charisma to get a 9th level spell. Earth Spell makese that a 10th level spell. Extra slot gives you a slot one level lower than you can cast, in this case 9th. The cleric domain slots give you one for every level you can cast, and so you get your domain slots for 9 and lower. Take the Magic domain and the Envy, and, by level nine, you have free SU wishes through Dweomerkeeper, and a dip in Wizard.

Uh. Illumians don't gain their Word until 2nd level.Huh. So they don't. Ah, well, still works at level 3.

[Curious]

-so you get your domain slots for 9 and lower.

I don't think it works like that.


Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power.

With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot.

You gain the domain spells known, yes, but you have to prepare them in your domain slots, which are gained at the normal progression.

Also, E6, so you can't get to your 9th class level.

[Little Brother]

I don't think it works like that.



You gain the domain spells known, yes, but you have to prepare them in your domain slots, which are gained at the normal progression.Nope. Text trumps table, text says I get access to a domain spell at each level I can cast, I cannot cast domain-specific spell outside of domain slots, therefore I get domain slots.

Also, E6, so you can't get to your 9th class level.But outside of E6 you get that. Inside of E6, you get whatever nice 9th level spells you like.

[gkathellar]

Nope. Text trumps table, text says I get access to a domain spell at each level I can cast, I cannot cast domain-specific spell outside of domain slots, therefore I get domain slots.

But you can't actually cast at any of those levels. You can alleviate the cost of heightening a spell to those levels, but you can't actually cast spells of those levels.

[candycorn]

Nope. Text trumps table, text says I get access to a domain spell at each level I can cast, I cannot cast domain-specific spell outside of domain slots, therefore I get domain slots.
Text does trump table, but rules text doesn't state you get domain slots. You state that.

And your text doesn't trump rules tables.

Just because you can access your bank account, doesn't mean that the bank is obligated to put money in it.

You gain access to those spells. Great. That does not automatically mean that you have the resources to use it.

If you unscrew the back of a computer, you gain access to the RAM. That doesn't mean you can program it or use it like that. You still need the appropriate tools in order to fully utilize it.

In this case, those tools are slots. You gain access to those spells, great. With domain spontaneity, you can convert your 9th level slot into any of those spells. That's access.

[sreservoir]

"His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric." the table includes +1s for domain slots.

[Little Brother]

But you can't actually cast at any of those levels. You can alleviate the cost of heightening a spell to those levels, but you can't actually cast spells of those levels.Yes you can. Heighten makes it actually that level, unlike the other metamagics. You use a second level slot to cast a 10th level spell, but you are still casting a 10th level spell.

Text does trump table, but rules text doesn't state you get domain slots. You state that.

And your text doesn't trump rules tables.

Just because you can access your bank account, doesn't mean that the bank is obligated to put money in it.Bad metaphor. You have cash(The spell), therefore you can use the cash(Cast the spell).

You gain access to those spells. Great. That does not automatically mean that you have the resources to use it.Then you do not have access to the spell.

If you unscrew the back of a computer, you gain access to the RAM. That doesn't mean you can program it or use it like that. You still need the appropriate tools in order to fully utilize it.But you can do things with said RAM. That's the point..

In this case, those tools are slots. You gain access to those spells, great. With domain spontaneity, you can convert your 9th level slot into any of those spells. That's access.Nope. I didn't take Spontaneous Domain, or whatever, so I cannot convert my 9th level slot. Therefore, if I do not have the slots, I do not have access.


"His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric." the table includes +1s for domain slots.Text trumps table. And that's the base. Going by your argument, Extra Slot doesn't actually give me an extra slot, because that slot is not on that table for a cleric of my level.

[JadePhoenix]

And this week's No Prize on "Missing the Point of E6" goes to... Curious!

A round of applause, everyone!

[sreservoir]

And this week's No Prize on "Missing the Point of E6" goes to... Curious!

A round of applause, everyone!

er, not really. it's more of this week's No Prize for "Failing to Make the Point Clearly Enough" goes to E6.

[dextercorvia]

Or, yanno, we could do it much simpler at level 1 with Illumian Cleric 1 with Heighten, Earth Sense, and Earth Spell, using any number of tricks for extra turning, including being Evil and taking the Sun Domain(DLCS one), or just do it at level 3 with the Extra Turning feat at level 1.

PS: This also works without using PF stuff.


So, how many high level spells is that guy going to have again? Two, three? The SC Mage can pump out three 9th level spells, and then five or six 8th levels. That's not actually optimal though; on a typical adventuring day, I'd have this guy using 1st level slots to cast 5th level spells, 2nd level slots to cast 6th level spells, and 3rd level slots to cast 7th level spells, with the occasional 8th thrown in when I need it. I really don't think your guy can match that.

Also, do tell how you can accomplish this without Pathfinder material. I'd like to know.

The trick is for LB to take Extra Slot with all those feats that Curious Spent just getting to his Trick. Now let's compare the number and quality of ninth level spells the builds can cast.

[Little Brother]

The trick is for LB to take Extra Slot with all those feats that Curious Spent just getting to his Trick. Now let's compare the number and quality of ninth level spells the builds can cast.I've got 2 9th level slots, one from any domain I want and one from the Cleric list. Wish(Envy Domain) would be useful, but the XP cost is so high, Dominate Monster(Tyranny, among others), Mind Blank if I need it(Could theoretically be gotten through abuse of the Divine Magician ACF on a CC's Knowledge Domain, but it's also in a domain), and I've also got Implosion and so on. Best part is, with the switch domain spell, by devoting myself to a totally abstract or unclear/controlled concept, like myself, or unlimited magical power, or some such, I can get any domain spells.

Translation: SUCK IT, Archivists!

Need further explanation?

[dextercorvia]

I've got 2 9th level slots, one from any domain I want and one from the Cleric list. Wish(Envy Domain) would be useful, but the XP cost is so high, Dominate Monster(Tyranny, among others), Mind Blank if I need it(Could theoretically be gotten through abuse of the Divine Magician ACF on a CC's Knowledge Domain, but it's also in a domain), and I've also got Implosion and so on. Best part is, with the switch domain spell, by devoting myself to a totally abstract or unclear/controlled concept, like myself, or unlimited magical power, or some such, I can get any domain spells.

Translation: SUCK IT, Archivists!

Need further explanation?

I was only saying that before he compares his three to your two, he should see how many extra feats he's already used that you can drop into Extra Slots.

[Curious]

I was only saying that before he compares his three to your two, he should see how many extra feats he's already used that you can drop into Extra Slots.

9 feats required for the build. So, two flaws, three from level progression, and four from E6 leveling.

[dextercorvia]

9 feats required for the build. So, two flaws, three from level progression, and four from E6 leveling.

Naenhoon get its first with 4 feats, so that means by 9 feats, you are rocking 6 ninth level spells without LB's dodgy domain spell interpretation. (LB's probably right, by RAW, and this is a thought experiment, so we don't need to bring reasonable into it.)

[Little Brother]

Oh, wow. Sorry 'bout that, Dex, totally derped and misunderstood what you wrote.

9 feats required for the build. So, two flaws, three from level progression, and four from E6 leveling.So, at that level, I would get 5 more 9th level slots(Or 4, by using my 6th level feat on Extra Slot and my third on Extra Turning, for more rounded stats), so that gives me 6+1(or 5+1) 9th level slots, and 0+1 for everything I can't naturally cast. And basically any spell I please, thanks to Complete Champion.

[Curious]

So, at that level, I would get 5 more 9th level slots(Or 4, by using my 6th level feat on Extra Slot and my third on Extra Turning, for more rounded stats), so that gives me 6+1(or 5+1) 9th level slots, and 0+1 for everything I can't naturally cast. And basically any spell I please, thanks to Complete Champion.

You do get more 9th level spells, but my guy gets at least as many, if not more, 7th and 8th level spells in addition to his 9ths through slot stacking via Versatile Spellcaster

[dextercorvia]

You do get more 9th level spells, but my guy gets at least as many, if not more, 7th and 8th level spells in addition to his 9ths through slot stacking via Versatile Spellcaster

Run me through how that works, if you don't mind.

[Curious]

Run me through how that works, if you don't mind.

Versatile Spellcaster lets you sacrifice two slots of a given level in exchange for one slot of a higher level. So you could give up four 1st level slots in exchange for two 2nd level slots, and then sacrifice those slots for a 3rd level slot.

[dextercorvia]

Versatile Spellcaster lets you sacrifice two slots of a given level in exchange for one slot of a higher level. So you could give up four 1st level slots in exchange for two 2nd level slots, and then sacrifice those slots for a 3rd level slot.

I was afraid that's what you were going to say. Unfortunately, that isn't how it works at all. VS lets you sacrifice two spells of a level to cast a spell of the next higher level -- it never gives you the slot of that level. If your trick hinges upon this (and I don't think it does for the nines), then it won't work.

[Curious]

I was afraid that's what you were going to say. Unfortunately, that isn't how it works at all. VS lets you sacrifice two spells of a level to cast a spell of the next higher level -- it never gives you the slot of that level. If your trick hinges upon this (and I don't think it does for the nines), then it won't work.

Unfortunate. Regardless, I can still get plenty of 7's and 8's off, just a few less now.

[dextercorvia]

Unfortunate. Regardless, I can still get plenty of 7's and 8's off, just a few less now.

I'm still not seeing how you are getting the intermediate level spells.

Edit: PF's Metamagic Focus doesn't reduce the cost of Heighten. CMage's Metamagic School Focus will limited times per day.

[Curious]

I'm still not seeing how you are getting the intermediate level spells.


After I'm out of third level spells, or out of uses of metamagic school focus, you use Versatile Spellcaster on your 2nd level spells to get 3rd level spells, and get 7th level spells.

[gkathellar]

After I'm out of third level spells, or out of uses of metamagic school focus, you use Versatile Spellcaster on your 2nd level spells to get 3rd level spells, and get 7th level spells.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. Again, VS lets you cast spells — it doesn't really let you do anything with them.

[candycorn]

Bad metaphor. You have cash(The spell), therefore you can use the cash(Cast the spell).Cash is what you spend to get what you want. In the metaphor, slots are the equivalent.

Then you do not have access to the spell.Yes, you do. Access does not equal = I can fully use this whenever I want. It does equal = I can use this, provided I pay all costs for doing so.

A wizard level 3 has access to second level spells. Once it casts every spell it has, it doesn't lose spellcasting access. It can still, for example, use wands. This shows that access and slots are not linked.


But you can do things with said RAM. That's the point..Yep. You can hold it in your hand. However, in order to use it for its intended purpose, you also need more.

Nope. I didn't take Spontaneous Domain, or whatever, so I cannot convert my 9th level slot. Therefore, if I do not have the slots, I do not have access. Incorrect, as stated before.

Having access to something does not automatically grant you unlimited use of it. In fact, it doesn't grant you any specific use of it, beyond what your existing resources grant.


Text trumps table. And that's the base. Going by your argument, Extra Slot doesn't actually give me an extra slot, because that slot is not on that table for a cleric of my level.If it states that explicitly it alters the number of slots you have, then it does give you an extra slot. That's a contradiction in the rules, which means that text trumps table can intervene.

If it does not explicitly state that it alters the number of slots that you have, then there is no contradiction, and existing table data is valid.

[Curious]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. Again, VS lets you cast spells — it doesn't really let you do anything with them.

I'm casting a spell that has been heightened massively, and that spell allows me to cast other spells.

[candycorn]

I'm casting a spell that has been heightened massively, and that spell allows me to cast other spells.

But that spell does not give you additional resources with which to do it. You are still obligated to find access to those resources...

...at least, if you want it to be RAW. I mean, I could say that having the Quicken spell feat means that I have an extra 45 slots at every level. It doesn't make it true.

[Curious]

But that spell does not give you additional resources with which to do it. You are still obligated to find access to those resources...

...at least, if you want it to be RAW. I mean, I could say that having the Quicken spell feat means that I have an extra 45 slots at every level. It doesn't make it true.

What? Where am I stating that the spell gives me the resources to cast the spell? I'm using versatile spellcaster to cast a spell that has been heightened, and that spell allows me to use other spells.

[candycorn]

What? Where am I stating that the spell gives me the resources to cast the spell? I'm using versatile spellcaster to cast a spell that has been heightened, and that spell allows me to use other spells.

A build would clarify the legality quite a bit, as I am rather unaware of any class, feat, or other ability that allows a heightened spell to give you other spells, by itself.

[dextercorvia]

My impression that was that he was doing a E6 shadowcaster -- using heightened minor images to do whatever spell effect he wanted.