Gerard of the town guard is a ranger.

[Infernalbargain]

I'm just talking about you average town guard.

First the 3.5 version. A town guard needs martial proficiencies, medium armor (chain mail is common for guard), full BAB and several skills. He needs profession to make money; spot and listen to post watch; Climb, balance, tumble, and ride for pursuit; search for catching smugglers; gather information for investigation; decipher script for spotting forgeries; diplomacy/intimidate for interrogation; and use rope for tying up captured criminals. So if we allow him to instead wear a chain shirt, then a human ranger with 18 int can almost adequately serve as town guard.

In PF the skills are a bit more compact, he just need profession, climb, perception, ride, diplomacy, acrobatics, and linguistics. A nonhuman ranger can pull this off with a 10 int using favored skills for skills points. Sure they're missing 3 of the class skills, but that doesn't matter as much in PF.

But it still bothers me at the average town guard is composed of rangers.

[Shadowleaf]

A town guard could simply have specialists. A fantasy town guard is not the modern day police forces - each guard does not fufill all roles.
You might have a set of guards with good eyes guarding the front gate. Another pair is the designated search team, while at the dungeons a team of interrogators are waiting to question the people the grabbers bring in.

Or they could simply hire outside help.

Edit: Also, I think Forgery spots Forgery?

[jbr712]

You seem to be under the impression that the average town guard is capable of fulfilling all the duties of an entire unit by him/herself. In all practicality, a guardsman is able to adequately do his job with ranks in spot, listen, search, and one other skill for a specialty. The average town guard won't be looking for forgeries, or conducting interrogations, they'll be on the beat looking for pick pockets and patrolling parts of a given city or town. I'm also at a loss for the "necessity" of use rope when holding the criminal at sword point or using manacles is a valid option. Tumble is also an interesting choice, not one I usually associate with city guards or their modern counter part.

Even working on the assumption that a guard is required to be capable of fulfilling every task, they don't need max ranks in all skills - if you look at modern police forces they tend to have one or two ranks in the skills they need and perhaps three ranks in one they have a knack for.

Assume they're level human 1 warriors (very typical in D&D), 12 skill points at level 1 assuming no int modifier. This allows for 1.0 listen, 1.0 spot, 1.0 search, and three other skills with 2 ranks each. Are they great at what they do? No, but town guards really aren't that good at what they do, they are a little better than the average person because they have the training where as the average commoner would have ranks in a craft for basic needs at home, profession farmer, maybe handle animal.

Edit: Dang, appear to have been beaten to the punch with the specialist comment.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

yes, I think my next character for PFS might be an Urban ranger/Ranger with favored terrain: Urban... fluff being he used to be a town guard/watchman. As a useful party focused character, it definitely works. However, like others have said, your standard town guard would probably be a Warrior NPC, Fighter at best. The specialist interrogators, detectives, etc. would probably be Rangers, Rogues, and other more skill focused classes. Also, any large town/city worth its salt would have wizards/Eldritch Knights on the pay roll for SWAT type situations and higher level adventurers that have a propensity for causing trouble.

[Seharvepernfan]

Town guards don't make much money. Remember, a typical laborer makes one silver peice a day, and town guards aren't trained proffessionals.

Usually, in a big city, there will be a city guard and a city watch, the guard being a kind of military defense, and the watch being a police force. The watchmen might be warrior/experts, but besides that, most of the skills you mentioned a guard needing will be had by a rogue that works for or with the town.

Also, forgery detects forgery, not decipher script.

[Salbazier]

So? An Urban Ranger would fit the bill of an (elite) detective/crimefighter in cities. Like Shadowleaf said, town guard is not modern police force. They are little more than soldiers on patrol and need little more than spot and weapon prof. Now the officers, or other higher positioned agents may have some better skill in certain areas and they are the ones people turns to when there is some investigating needs doing. Or rent some trustworthy adventurers. That and their gold is the reason you let them in the cities.

[Coidzor]

I'm not so certain that Profession is quite necessary to guardsmen, per se.

Further, Urban Rangers actually could give urban investigation a fair shake and still be martial types while also having some justification for finding a barbarian type to have the potential to be a handful.

And if casting is that much of a bother, there's a way to denude ranger of its casting.

[Daftendirekt]

So if we allow him to instead wear a chain shirt, then a human ranger with 18 int can almost adequately serve as town guard.



18 int, and he could only ALMOST do it? You do realize 18 intelligence means you're a ****ing UBER-GENIUS, right? You make a good point that ranger should be the default town guard class instead of fighter, but then messed it all up by saying that uber-geniuses could only ALMOST serve as dudes who just stand there with weapons looking important.

[Killer Angel]

So if we allow him to instead wear a chain shirt, then a human ranger with 18 int can almost adequately serve as town guard.


...or he can become a wizard and proceed to rule the world.

Now, just look at something else:


He needs profession to make money
He's already a guard and he's paid for.


spot and listen to post watch

Useful, but I doubt standard guards are more good doing this than a simple human. Maybe a +1.


Climb, balance, tumble, and ride for pursuit
Few guards are like Willy Smith pursuing aliens in MiB.


decipher script for spotting forgeries;

case 1: Ehy, the paper is signed. I think it's OK.
case 2: errr... Yes it says that we should set free the prisoners. Captain, can you come here?

[JadePhoenix]

But did he take an arrow to the knee?

[Salbazier]

But did he take an arrow to the knee?

Is this referencing something? Coz I don't get it

[Badgerish]

'tis a Skyrim reference. If you take what they say as true, it appears that about 75% of town guards used to be adventurers, until...


I do think Urban Ranger does fit for elite guards, but for ordinary town guards, expert1/warrior1 provides all the skills and proficenies they need.

I don't give NPCs PC-class-levels without giving them the elite array and a name.

[Zeikstraal]

Is this referencing something? Coz I don't get it


Hanging around in D&D forums and you don't know that it is Skyrim??? In my D&D group they call that Blasphemy!!!!!XD

nahh kidding:smallsmile:

I once had a DM where the Townguard where level 9 fighters with 999HP. Seriously.
So Int 18 aint that good.

[Salbazier]

Well, I don't play much video games (like, none at all) nowadays.

[Killer Angel]

I once had a DM where the Townguard where level 9 fighters with 999HP. Seriously.


:smallsigh:

...any chance the "town" was Asgard or something similar?

[Madara]

Are we talking about town guards, or the GM's "Town Guards" which have to deal with PCs?

[LansXero]

Rangers as guards, you say?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4b/WalkerTitle.jpg

I have no problem with it.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Messing with the town guard in my towns usually end up like trying to mess with Cucco's My town's often have a circular setup with a main watchtower in the centre that offers a clear view of the city, guards can easily be manoeuvred through the streets and Crossbows will be able to hit the vandals.

I use a few different types for my guards.
Level 4 human fighters. Monkey Grip, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Crossbow), Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Crossbow Sniper.
Are the strongest I use. Then I also use Light Crossbow Scouts for Skirmishers and Two-Weapon Rogues for more serious situations. (Don't go close combat unless you have to type deal) I'm currently working on another archetype to toss into the game as well.

[dextercorvia]

I'm just talking about you average town guard.

First the 3.5 version. A town guard needs martial proficiencies, medium armor (chain mail is common for guard), full BAB and several skills. He needs profession to make money; spot and listen to post watch; Climb, balance, tumble, and ride for pursuit; search for catching smugglers; gather information for investigation; decipher script for spotting forgeries; diplomacy/intimidate for interrogation; and use rope for tying up captured criminals. So if we allow him to instead wear a chain shirt, then a human ranger with 18 int can almost adequately serve as town guard.


Most guards don't have side gigs, so no Profession. The typical guard is also missing climb, balance, or tumble, that is how Aladdin can get away. Ride would also not be usual, unless they ride road patrol, but a town guard won't need that. Guards don't do much interrogation or forgery spotting on their own; there will be specialists for that. Use Rope -- maybe, but they can just carry manacles, or make the check untrained.

That leaves Spot, Listen, and Search, with maybe a rank or two of Gather Info or Intimidate to grease the wheels of society, unless they do more investigating than patrolling.

A Human Warrior2 (ECL1) with a 10-11 Int will have 2 Ranks ofeach of Spot, Listen, and Search, with 3 skill points left over for Intimidation, or to specialize in one of the other areas.

Alertness is a pretty basic NPC feat for a patroller.

A non-human would probably choose two of Listen, Spot, or Search to focus on.

If you want a more skillful guard, then I recommend Expert1/Warrior1, while full on Investigators would be Expert2 (or more).

[Glimbur]

I usually run town guards as experts, with warriors as the brute squad. I'm assuming that guards run in groups, that BAB isn't a big deal at low levels compared to skills, and that PC classes are rare.

[Flickerdart]

Messing with the town guard in my towns usually end up like trying to mess with Cucco's My town's often have a circular setup with a main watchtower in the centre that offers a clear view of the city, guards can easily be manoeuvred through the streets and Crossbows will be able to hit the vandals.

I use a few different types for my guards.
Level 4 human fighters. Monkey Grip, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Crossbow), Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Crossbow Sniper.
Are the strongest I use. Then I also use Light Crossbow Scouts for Skirmishers and Two-Weapon Rogues for more serious situations. (Don't go close combat unless you have to type deal) I'm currently working on another archetype to toss into the game as well.
So your towns are all Panopticons? That must paint the campaign in an interesting light...

[Knaight]

So your towns are all Panopticons? That must paint the campaign in an interesting light...

There are a few places historically where the town guards would be highly trained, highly disciplined, and well equipped, to the point of being able to practically lock down a city. The capital of Qin in the Warring States period around the time they became a major power is a good example of this; I'd probably give Xianyang guards PC classes. Ranger is a good one, though I'd probably throw in some Rogues as well. Then there are the secret police on top of that, which could easily be over level 1.

[KillianHawkeye]

Compared to what an actual every-day town guard needs to do, the guy in the OP is practically Sherlock Holmes. Or Batman.

-----------------------------------

As others have said, they probably don't need Profession skill at all.

They don't need Climb, Balance, or Tumble, since pursuit happens on foot or not at all.

They probably don't need Ride, since you can ride from Town A to Town B without actually being trained. You just can't do fancy stuff or mounted combat.

They don't need Diplomacy for anything, ever.

They don't need to have Search, Gather Information, AND Intimidate because catching smugglers, doing investigation, or doing interrogations isn't the job of a rank-and-file watchman. They can easily each pick one to put a few spare ranks into if they're looking to become a captain someday.

They don't need Forgery at all, because who puts ranks in that?

And they don't need Use Rope because they have manacles. And even if they did use a rope to tie somebody up, the Use Rope skill already gives them a free +10 when binding someone, because tying someone up is easier than escaping from being tied up.



That leaves you with Spot and Listen, full BAB and light or medium armor proficiency, which an NPC Warrior with Int 10 can do just fine by spending all his skill points on cross-class ranks in Spot and Listen. A Human will have one extra skill point each level to specialize Intimidate or slowly cross-class Search or Gather Information with. Of course, it's the few guards with an actual Int bonus who will be the real specialists that the other guards call in when something weird is going on.

[ExemplarofAvg]

So your towns are all Panopticons? That must paint the campaign in an interesting light...

Every once in a while My Players go more than a little chaotic. (Chaotic Evil maybe, even the paladin and the monk{It's a warforged and a long story}) So every once in a while when they go way off kilter, I mean burning the library, stealing animals from the zoo, and mooning people in the church. Along with general rape, pillage and murder. I first try railroading, which they then find a way to highjack and crash into the mayors villa. That's when the central pillar rises and the PC's need to get the hell outta dodge. It's also happened twice without them doing anything. One quest they needed to find a murderer on the loose and the city was in full lockdown. And the other, I think was when we ended up telling one player it would be his last session with us because of his actions above. So we decided to have some fun with it and turned the town into a death trap.

[Coidzor]

Along with general rape, pillage and murder.

...Rape? :smallconfused: You let your players make a habit of bringing rape into D&D?

[Crasical]

Why are all your town guards named Gerard?

[dextercorvia]

Why are all your town guards named Gerard?

Because they guard gates....

[Flickerdart]

Every once in a while My Players go more than a little chaotic. (Chaotic Evil maybe, even the paladin and the monk{It's a warforged and a long story}) So every once in a while when they go way off kilter, I mean burning the library, stealing animals from the zoo, and mooning people in the church. Along with general rape, pillage and murder. I first try railroading, which they then find a way to highjack and crash into the mayors villa. That's when the central pillar rises and the PC's need to get the hell outta dodge. It's also happened twice without them doing anything. One quest they needed to find a murderer on the loose and the city was in full lockdown. And the other, I think was when we ended up telling one player it would be his last session with us because of his actions above. So we decided to have some fun with it and turned the town into a death trap.
The whole point of a Panopticon is to prevent exactly this from happening. So you are clearly Doing It Wrong (tm).

[Coidzor]

So your towns are all Panopticons? That must paint the campaign in an interesting light...

You mean the prison idea?

[Flickerdart]

You mean the prison idea?
And to a lesser extent, the ideas of Foucault related to the matter.

[ExemplarofAvg]

...Rape? :smallconfused: You let your players make a habit of bringing rape into D&D?

Yeah, I don't let them, so much as they just kind of do it. Hence why it's rape and not sex.

[Daftendirekt]

Yeah, I don't let them, so much as they just kind of do it. Hence why it's rape and not sex.

You're the DM. If they try something like that, just say "No. You don't do that. Because that's ****ed up."

[rweird]

Decipher Script isn't used to detect forgeries. Forgery opposes Forgery, Decipher Script is used to read languages you can't speak/read fluently.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, I don't let them, so much as they just kind of do it. Hence why it's rape and not sex.You're the DM. If they try something like that, just say "No. You don't do that. Because that's ****ed up."

Yeah. You put your foot down and force them to at least act like they're reasonable facsimiles of mature, healthy human beings.

Because that's just not acceptable behavior. That's worse than the whole rape jokes thing, because they're now self-identifying and attempting to roleplay out rape. Themselves. With you or with one another. That's just wrong.

[Knaight]

You're the DM. If they try something like that, just say "No. You don't do that. Because that's ****ed up."

Or even "I'm not GMing for any game that includes that content."

[Killer Angel]

Indeed. Rape is that kind of thing that the DM put togheter as background for the rising of a banshee, not a thing that should be seen in actual play.

[SowZ]

This is why my average town guard is level 2 with a fairly occasional 3. A 4 or 5 in a city is reasonable but rare. They need to be competent at a number of things. Fighting/keeping the peace is their job. It is a reasonably competetive position. They should be good at it. (This is with NPC classes, though.)

As for the rape thing, the only things I have a hard ban on as a GM is rape. If it has a good story reason and is done tastefully I would be okay with it as a plot point, (not a roleplaying scene,) but this has never happened in my experience. Everything else can happen in the right context but I won't play in a senseless pillage fest. If you all have fun with an axe-crazy campaign then do what you want.

[Daftendirekt]

Tasteful rape? :smallconfused:

[Knaight]

Tasteful rape? :smallconfused:

As in handled well, presumably. For instance, the various "dark fantasy" series that use it as a cheap plot device to push a character towards vengeance are a classic example of both what is usually done, and what not to do.

[SowZ]

Tasteful rape? :smallconfused:

The rape itself cannot be tasteful, of course. But yeah, Knaight, handled well. Like I said, I cannot recall any time it has happened in one of my campaigns or one I have been in. But rape as a plot point could be legitimate if it came up.

For example, a concubine who had no choice in her proffession might, (justifiably,) view herself as a victim of rape. Even rape as aftermath of a conquest is common and could be a characters origin.

[Knaight]

The rape itself cannot be tasteful, of course. But yeah, Knaight, handled well. Like I said, I cannot recall any time it has happened in one of my campaigns or one I have been in. But rape as a plot point could be legitimate if it came up.

As a rule, I'd lean heavily towards "don't include it, particularly not as plot point". It's just that, on top of that, there's "and if you do, please don't do any of this stuff, which keeps showing up when people do include it", followed by a very long list.

[SowZ]

As a rule, I'd lean heavily towards "don't include it, particularly not as plot point". It's just that, on top of that, there's "and if you do, please don't do any of this stuff, which keeps showing up when people do include it", followed by a very long list.

Sure, and in general I have followed that rule. But it can be done tastefully. Although there are probably better examples, everyone has seen this movie so I'll use it. The rape in Braveheart wasn't offensive to me. Something like that.

But for every good example there are a number of poor ones.

[Coidzor]

But for every good example there are a number of poor ones.

Of course. It's rape. Hence why it's better to not bother, because if you're confident enough to actually pull it off you've got better things you can put there anyway. Or just flat-out better stories to tell.

[Knaight]

Of course. It's rape. Hence why it's better to not bother, because if you're confident enough to actually pull it off you've got better things you can put there anyway. Or just flat-out better stories to tell.

Outside of a few notable exceptions, this is pretty much the best method.