Horrible DM Stories [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Olo Demonsbane

2011-12-24, 03:17 AM

This post is half rant, half chance for others to share their stories for the rest of us to sympathize with.

Every year, when everyone comes home for Christmas, my cousins and brothers and I play a friendly, light-hearted game of D&D. Up until now, we've generally been able to deal with my brother and his foibles as a DM. Tonight, though, it kind of reached a crescendo of horribleness that may spell the end to me ever wanting to play with him again, let alone let him DM.

We made 3rd level gestalt characters, which is an undertaking when two of your four players play strictly core most of the time and suddenly have all options open. After about 6 hours of figuring stuff out, we had:

A Wizard/Binder//Druid, me.
A Duskblade//Factotum, my youngest brother.
A Rouge//Swordsage, my cousin.
And a Mystic Ranger//Fighter, my other cousin.
And there was the DM, the middle brother.

Everyone was really happy with their characters (the above is a simplification though, there was more multiclassing) and were raring to play.

The game started, and it was a poorly thought out, railroaded mess. We got told that we were in a town with a king and his son, Sylvan. I wanted to go stay in my home for the night (my character was flavoured as an old recluse who hates people), but was told I couldn't. Somewhat understandably, as the adventure started with an attack on the town and the inn burning.

We got out and started fighting four enemies. They were able to somewhat reliably hit AC 19 and successfully hit AC 26. They all had ~50 hp, and were reasonable opponents, as we had optimized characters. We slugged out a few rounds, with the Factotum getting low, and I was enjoying myself. I could see the DM getting more frustrated as we managed to eliminate two of them, so next turn he had a giant boulder fall out of the sky, damaging us and knocking us down with no save. When that did not deter us from killing a third, he had five more show up. As we started to all get really close to dying, all of the enemies ran away.

Sylvan, the prince, ran down and started exhorting us to follow him. Being somewhat railroad-friendly and good-hearted souls, we followed him without question. We ran for the entire night, with the DM spending a significant amount of time describing how tired we got, and how completely untired Sylvan was. We got to a town, and after spending a little bit of time fending off pickpockets with illusions and roleplaying among each other, the DM described a huge bandit-like person approaching.

He demanded all of our gold and magic items. As we started to negotiate with him, threatening back a little and starting to get somewhat prepared for a fight, the prince drew his bow and shot the guy with two arrows that "both crit"...as I was sitting next to the DM, I noticed that he happened to roll a 16 and a 7. This killed the bandit before I could do more than waste a charge of my wand of shield.

Anyway, we continued on, and eventually ran into a small tree house along the road. I cast Spider Hand to go scout it out, and got told that as soon as my spider went inside, it was paralyzed and blinded with no save, and, therefore, so was I (not part of the rules, but whatever). My companions went inside as well, and were similarly paralyzed and blinded with no save. Eventually, a whole city of gnomes started pouring water on us (they all lived in the small tree house), which apparently broke the hold. I expressed a desire to talk to the gnomes and convince them to help us, and, the DM decided that it would be an opportune moment for Sylvan to decide that we needed to carry on now to catch up with the original enemies.

So, we kept going. After a good while (in which we became extremely tired and Sylvan was still going strong), we came to a field of mushrooms. Sylvan told us they would explode if touched. I believe it was designed as sort of a skill challenge. Being adventurers, we wanted to see if we could make them explode in a chain reaction. So we stood back to maximum bow range and had the Ranger fire a few arrows at them, despite Sylvan telling us not to (at this point, we were all getting rather irritated with Sylvan, so we ignored him).

The mushrooms all exploded, as hoped, but they also managed to shoot blue gel the 1000 feet away that we were. And total cover was negated. Of course, Sylvan was immune. Our skin started to feel hot and itchy from the gel, so we tried washing it off with water, washing it off with snow, washing it off with alcohol (two different types), burning it off with fire, burning it off with acid, and scraping it off with a dagger. None of this got more than the surface layer off. We asked to make a knowledge check; our resulting knowledge (nature) of 38 didn't give us any more information on how to remove it, only that it would start doing lots of damage in a few hours.

We walked a little while more (the DM completely forgetting about the gel somehow), and then started getting peppered with arrows from people in hiding. We tried to ready actions, but got told we weren't allowed to do that. Our ranger, who spent crazy amounts of effort boosting his skills really high, got a 28 to hit the sniping archers, as they didn't break their hiding status, but still couldn't see them, even with the -20 penalty for sniping. When I brought this up, the DM told me to "stop saying facts". I used a fog spell or two to try and discourage them as we tried to run away, but they kept up with us and kept injuring us, several of us down to ~5hp. Sylvan, the master archer, was absolutely no help this time.

We eventually got away by running through a hedge, which got us completely surrounded by the original enemies. 120 of them, in fact. And a lot of them had readied actions to shoot us if we did anything. Sylvan whispered in the leader's ear, got the magic gems the king had, and ran away, leaving us to die. After a bit of well-placed distraction, the Factotum was at -7, the Rogue had escaped at 8 hp, and the Ranger and I were tied up. As the Rogue was running away, he got stopped by Sylvan and was threatened to work for him or die.

"-7 hp...2 rounds later, an army of gnomes appears and attacks the tribesmen!" In the chaos, I Abrupt Jaunted over and grabbed my wand of cure light wounds to heal the Factotum to -1, and then got shot into unconsciousness. The Ranger got over and healed me up, only to get shot down as well. I healed the Ranger to stability and used a massive AoE, house ruled to only effect enemies, which the DM told me effected none of them due to him only wanting to roll saves for one and then applying it to the whole army. They knocked me unconscious before I could do that again.

Meanwhile, the Rogue tried to take out Sylvan on his own. He used an item to cast a web and attacked the prince, who managed to avoid all the attacks and again shoot a couple of arrows that managed to pierce the Rogue's 26 AC with rolls that (I peeked again, I probably shouldn't have, but at this point it was getting ridiculous) in no way allowed him to actually hit him, knocking him down into unconsciousness. He "natural twenty'd" his way out of the web, and then hid the Rogue in a bush. We watched the stabilization rolls with bated breath; he managed to stabilize at -9.

After the DM realized we were all knocked out, the battle ended, with the gnomes victorious, a fact that we did not effect at all by killing 1/60th of the enemy. They healed me up, so I could heal my allies, and then took only 3,000 out of the 12,000 gold worth of items (he didn't even bother describing them, just "12,000 gold worth of items") before disappearing into the woods.

Now, despite all the difficulties, we were pumped up to go after that evil traitor, Sylvan. Unfortunately, we were told "No, you can't do that, he disappeared into the woods" despite our Ranger's Track feat and Survival of +15 or something. It was an extremely anticlimactic ending to an already horrid session. And it was the last one we were able to play with those characters, as my cousins had to leave the next day.

So that's that. Wayyy too long, but I had to get that rant out. Am I overreacting? Do you have stories that made that look like an ideal game session? Share your tales of misery!

darksolitaire

2011-12-24, 03:36 AM

Do you have stories that made that look like an ideal game session? Share your tales of misery!

I would, but they would be bland next to:

I could see the DM getting more frustrated as we managed to eliminate two of them, so next turn he had a giant boulder fall out of the sky, damaging us and knocking us down with no save.

Merry Xmas, mate :smallbiggrin:

TroubleBrewing

2011-12-24, 03:36 AM

Wow, talk about having a total disregard for players, the rules, or fun. Sorry to hear about it. :smalleek:

If you're looking for proper gaming horror stories, look around for That Lanky Bugger's story. It's... intense.

Olo Demonsbane

2011-12-24, 03:47 AM

Heh, yeah...at least I didn't have to get my brother arrested, as tempting as it might have been :smalltongue:

I think I'll go back to DMing next year...

Daftendirekt

2011-12-24, 05:08 AM

I will never, ever understand any DM that is even remotely like this. Nor will I understand any player who sticks around for more than 5 minutes of this. If anybody in my group tried some **** like this while DMing the rest of this would be like "yeah, no. I'm leaving."

TroubleBrewing

2011-12-24, 05:33 AM

I fail to understand how someone could DM like this at all.

Where is the draw in having your own personal Mary Sue accomplish everything?

DoctorGlock

2011-12-24, 06:00 AM

Another one for the Siberia bound train then...

I can't say I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with truly obscene fiat like that before, though DM tantrums and flat bans have been common. I shudder to think that the first session I ever ran was like that.

PC: He looks sketchy, I shoot him
Me: ...He's a famous member of the community and your primary benefactor right now!
PC: I don't trust him, he has a mafioso name. I shoot him.
Me: ...ummmm... he dodges?

I got better. Eventually.

As to the games I have played in...

In one case the party was level 12, I was a wizard, and we had to escort some cargo across a desert. Most of my 5th slots were teleport. The DM slams the books and says "just go, don't come back"

Another case was just DM laziness. "You hear chanting from through the wall" "ok, i blink through the wall to investigate" "you can't" "why?" "I said so, the walls here are special" "Ok, so instead of confronting the cultists I am going to mine plottanium from the walls" "F you"

Another was "Ok, I use metamagic (blasty spells), you already told me this guys lacks resistance, he take 240 damage"
DM... "He's immune"
Me: :smallconfused:
DM: You get struck by lightning. Epic lightning. Roll a new character. No magic.

TroubleBrewing

2011-12-24, 06:09 AM

We had a DM start us off at first level once. We awake as if from a dream and find ourselves standing over the dead body of the king, bloody daggers in our hands. We leap out the window, steal 4 horses, and take off. En route, our sorcerer casts detect magic and concentrates, finding that the four daggers have a minor enchantment on them. We decide to keep them.

A rakshasa appears immediately, and demands the daggers back. We tell him to stuff it. Our bard begins Fascinating the rakshasa. Who rolls a 1 on his save. The bard tells us to run, run far away.

We ride, and not 1 round later, a gray slaad is in front of us, demanding the daggers back. Our sorcerer tosses a slow on him, and he also rolls a 1 on his saving throw.

DM: Eff this, I'm out.

(That DM was especially fond of the "overwhelming force means they have to do what I say" strategy.)

Shadowleaf

2011-12-24, 07:01 AM

I have a story from a few years back I've never actually bothered to put into writing. It's a bit on the long side and English is a second language to me, but I'll dot it down anyway. It wasn't as much a bad DM (well ok, it was) as it was a weird DM and just a bizarre experience.

A friend of mine told me about his friend who needed players for a D&D 3.5 campaign due to some dropouts. Me, always willing to try new things, got the friend's (my new DM)'s Skype information. We Skyped for about half an hour and he seemed like a decent guy. The premise of the campaign was that we were all half-dragons. We were starting at around level 10-ish. Hokay. Right up my alley. I ask him a few questions concerning the rest of the party and their power level, what class they needed, etc. He told me it didn't matter - he would accomidate for any shortcomings in the group, and power-balance wasn't a main concern - RP was.

Fair enough. I roll up a Sorcerer obsessed with becoming a Dragon. He saw himself as somewhat impure, and did everything he could to be more Draconic. I told the DM of my eventual goal of polymorphing into Dragons and he loved it.

Once my character and backstory is done, he tells me to begin rewriting the backstory with 'a few changes'. Instead of being from a small city and selftought, I was suddenly a noble from Athkatla who studied at Mage College and had no idea who my father was. Fair enough I thought, a bit of railroading never hurt anybody.

He wanted to do a solo session on Skype before introducing me to the group, seeing as I could hardly be dropped into the middle of the campaign.

I start off by pursuing some character goals such as trying to find a way to aquire a Polymorph spell. Half an hour later and I have a Staf of Polymorph. Erhm. Okay. I try to polymorph into a Dragon to see if it works. Apparently, though, Polymorph had some houserule restrictions. First of all, I didn't have the necessary Knowledge: Transmutation ranks. You needed twice as many ranks as the creature you wanted to polymorph into's HD. Also, I needed ranks in Knowledge: Dragon Form equal to the specific size of Dragon's HD. I get a bit panicky and ask him if I can redo my character sheet a bit then. He agrees on the premise that I treat the knowledge skills as crossclass. He also notes that I should get Knowledge: Economics, as it will be important later.

After about an hour of redoing my character, and about an hour of him railroading me towards a nearby town (I honestly don't remember what happened, I'd pretty much stopped caring for the night), my character and the merchant he was travelling with get ambushed by a random encounter. He rolled his charts, and apparently we'd encountered a tribe of orcs. He laughed for a bit, and told me he had rolled a natural 20, which meant it was a special tribe. Queue five level 20 orcs battledancing into view, with obviously magical greataxes in each hand. Seeing no way to survive a fight, I Dimension Door myself and the merchant away (I did tell you about the robe I got within the first 5 minutes with unlimited Dimension Door uses, right?)

Some more stuff occured, and I learn my father is a Great Wyrm Red Dragon, and he eventually summons me to a meeting. Cool. I get to meet the rest of the party. At this point my character had leveled up once, and his stats had gone from Str 10 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16 to Str 16 Dex 18 Con 28 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 24 with +3 to my Sorcerer CL, +6 nat armor, lowlight vision, 12d6 breath attack, and a bunch of other abilities. I now also owned a small estate, a business, and a succubus.

I was told to be at a university where the DM secured us a room at 11 AM. I was a bit baffled but went anyway. I finally meet the DM in person - a normal looking guy, though a bit older than what I was used to (I'd guess in his 30'ies). We walk for a bit, talking about some in-game stuff and find the room. He opens the door, and the sight almost stunned me.

Having expected a normal group, I wasn't prepared for 15 25-40 year old men and one 16 year old girl sitting in the room, eagerly expecting the DM. A quick glance at the dashboard revealed rather complex calculations of what appeared to be gold in the millions, with the headline "Our Economy".

I sat down and kept quiet while the DM introduced the concept to the new players. Apparently, we were now the leaders of Amn - since I was a noble, I had unlimited access to the entire country's gold reserves, which we needed to allocate. The meeting also began in-game, with the epic lich Larloch opening the floor.

After no more than 30 minutes, the meeting had devolved into four what I would guess to be accountants arguing over ingame bank interests. Two hours later they were discussing whether it would be better to invest in farming or woodcutting. I had yet to say a word other than my initial greeting.

After three hours, we took a lunch break. I went out for a pizza and never came back.

Venser

2011-12-24, 07:22 AM

Compared to this, I am a great DM :D

I let my players do what they want then change the enviorment due to their actions. For example, they have recently killed a major NPC for the story, a lord of an elven province...what happened?

The story went on, the bad guys got the advantage because they needed the elven lord removed, and now elves are hunting down my party :P

JadePhoenix

2011-12-24, 09:57 AM

Another case was just DM laziness. "You hear chanting from through the wall" "ok, i blink through the wall to investigate" "you can't" "why?" "I said so, the walls here are special" "Ok, so instead of confronting the cultists I am going to mine plottanium from the walls" "F you"

This one was uncalled for.
The walls could be made of a special material, they could be magically treated, there could be a trap blocking your passing...
Seriously, the DM should just have said "You don't know why".

DoctorGlock

2011-12-24, 10:01 AM

This one was uncalled for.
The walls could be made of a special material, they could be magically treated, there could be a trap blocking your passing...
Seriously, the DM should just have said "You don't know why".

In my group DMs are bound by the same rules as the players. If they want to do something, it's expected that they find they way. A lazy arse-pull because the DM "forgot" that bypassing solid matter is fairly trivial does not fly.

Venger

2011-12-24, 10:06 AM

my story is here, it was terrible:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12219564&postcount=57

The Glyphstone

2011-12-24, 10:19 AM

JadePhoenix

2011-12-24, 10:36 AM

In my group DMs are bound by the same rules as the players. If they want to do something, it's expected that they find they way. A lazy arse-pull because the DM "forgot" that bypassing solid matter is fairly trivial does not fly.

To me, it feels like you are just assuming your wizard knows too much.
Did you make a Search check to see if there was a trap to counter attempts to blink in that wall? Did you even have trapfinding?
Did you make a Knowledge (architecute and engineering) check to see if you knew about any blink proof materials? Did you even have ranks in Knowledge (architecute and engineering)?
Did you make a Spellcraft check to know if there could be a spell blocking your blink?

Seriously, 'the walls are special' is more informaiton than you should get without any of that.

Destro_Yersul

2011-12-24, 10:41 AM

To me, it feels like you are just assuming your wizard knows too much.
Did you make a Search check to see if there was a trap to counter attempts to blink in that wall? Did you even have trapfinding?
Did you make a Knowledge (architecute and engineering) check to see if you knew about any blink proof materials? Did you even have ranks in Knowledge (architecute and engineering)?
Did you make a Spellcraft check to know if there could be a spell blocking your blink?

Seriously, 'the walls are special' is more informaiton than you should get without any of that.

The point of this thread is that the DM was bad, and didn't know what he was doing. When asked why blink didn't work to get through the wall, his response was 'because I said so.' This is in no way the player's fault.

While there are, indeed, legitimate and clever means to not allow blinking through walls, the DM pulling stuff out his arse just because he doesn't want it to happen is not one of them.

Belril Duskwalk

2011-12-24, 10:42 AM

In my group DMs are bound by the same rules as the players. If they want to do something, it's expected that they find they way. A lazy arse-pull because the DM "forgot" that bypassing solid matter is fairly trivial does not fly.

A Wall of Force spell can stop ethereal transit, such as blink, cold. Add in a permanency and you can build a room that is ethereal-proof forever. Admittedly the DM (or perhaps more accurately, the DM's cultists) might not have thought to do that, but it is at least capable of being a legitimate, rules-sound design.

DoctorGlock

2011-12-24, 10:53 AM

To me, it feels like you are just assuming your wizard knows too much.
Did you make a Search check to see if there was a trap to counter attempts to blink in that wall? Did you even have trapfinding?
Did you make a Knowledge (architecute and engineering) check to see if you knew about any blink proof materials? Did you even have ranks in Knowledge (architecute and engineering)?
Did you make a Spellcraft check to know if there could be a spell blocking your blink?

Seriously, 'the walls are special' is more informaiton than you should get without any of that.

It was not a "I have a premeditated counter" special, it was a "i dont give two turds about planning and i'll just say no and claim it's special". I don't care if a DM counters, but this guy never planned anything.

JadePhoenix

2011-12-24, 11:09 AM

It was not a "I have a premeditated counter" special, it was a "i dont give two turds about planning and i'll just say no and claim it's special". I don't care if a DM counters, but this guy never planned anything.

Well, I don't care if they don't plan, if at least it's consistent.
Seriously, a DM can't counter anything you come up with. He's probably not smarter than you, even. But whoever built that place could have been smarter than your wizard. And/or more powerful. And/or richer.
So "I blink through walls" and "It doesn't work" as a response is fine by me, because it's pretty obvious that whoever built that would have contingencies.
Which is more fun - just bringing the game to an end because you can blink through an unprotected wall or actually having an adventure because you somehow can't blink through walls? Heck, we have stablished many ways why you couldn't do it. You think it's the DM's job to comb through rulebooks to find ways to counter your abilities? He might do that, if he so enjoys, but he rules do allow him to simply say "it doesn't work". Heck, even if I had a specific counter prepared, I'd just say "it doesn't work" because there is no way your wizard would know why it didn't work!

What I mean to say is that not everyone can be crazy prepared and all DMs have to improvise sometimes. I really think you were too rough on him this time around.

Destro_Yersul

2011-12-24, 11:27 AM

What I mean to say is that not everyone can be crazy prepared and all DMs have to improvise sometimes. I really think you were too rough on him this time around.

And I think you're giving the guy too much credit. He didn't say 'you don't know why it doesn't work,' or 'there is something blocking your passage,' or anything like that. That would have been fine. Even if the DM can't plan for everything, improvisation is a valuable skill for a DM. If they players come up with something you didn't think of, and you want to counter it, there could be a very good reason why it would be countered. At any rate, it's certainly possible to come up with something better than 'You can't, because I say so.'

Venger

2011-12-24, 11:54 AM

You think it's the DM's job to comb through rulebooks to find ways to counter your abilities?

well, yes, that's exactly what the DM's job is. if he's going to counter your abilities without actually following the rules, you shouldn't pretend to be playing 3.5, you should try a free-form rpg instead.

I said as much in a game where the following happened:

we had cornered a miniboss after mowing down henchmen and getting just absolutely wrecked. we were level 4, a knight, a monk, a beguiler, and a cleric (me). the DM bragged about how the boss was a "level 12 dashing swordsman"

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)

yeah. D&Dwiki.

I put on my best "challenge accepted" face and summoned some owlbear skeletons and had one of them attack. he tried to move away from the owlbear to activate his boots of teleportation (yes he tells us they are such) (again, we are level 4) and provokes an AoO from the owlbear who successfully sunders them. he then tries to say that the cape he is wearing is a flying carpet and that he will try to move away from the other owlbear whose threat radius he is within to activate it. I tell him I'll just sunder that too if he keeps pulling OP magic items out of his ass and he lets it lie.

or so I thought.

he then looks at the sunder rules and says that the magic carpet pinned to the guy's back is worn armor. we all look at him incredulously and say no, it is not, that makes no sense. he says no magic carpet and we kill the guy

the group of level 4s defeats a level 12 NPC (and a handful of assorted henchpeoples) and the encounter calculator deems the threat impossible to beat, so we level up.

the example of blink provides a similar conundrum to what happens when a group gains access to teleport, but like the 10 tips in the eberron explorer's handbook, the best solution is really to talk about it with them from an RP perspective rather than a mechanical one and tell them you've got some airship adventures planned and that skipping over it would pretty much mean no game. sure, there's no actual RAW reason stopping you from teleporting the prince from point A to point B, but you're asking them not to so you can play D&D together. it's likely to get better results than saying they need to teleport a zillions tons of cargo since that sort of reeks of the nerf bat

JadePhoenix

2011-12-24, 12:06 PM

well, yes, that's exactly what the DM's job is. if he's going to counter your abilities without actually following the rules, you shouldn't pretend to be playing 3.5, you should try a free-form rpg instead.

I completely disagree. Not all players know all the rules, neither should the DM and it is completely right under the rules that he gets to fiat when he wants it.

And I think you're giving the guy too much credit. He didn't say 'you don't know why it doesn't work,' or 'there is something blocking your passage,' or anything like that. That would have been fine. Even if the DM can't plan for everything, improvisation is a valuable skill for a DM. If they players come up with something you didn't think of, and you want to counter it, there could be a very good reason why it would be countered. At any rate, it's certainly possible to come up with something better than 'You can't, because I say so.'
My point is not that it was alright for him to say 'because I said so', my point is that it's alright not to tell why couldn't do it.

JadePhoenix

2011-12-24, 12:18 PM

Venger

2011-12-24, 12:19 PM

JadePhoenix

2011-12-24, 12:25 PM

that part of the argument is reasonable enough. I wasn't saying that the DMs must know every rule ever, that's not gonna happen. you can run a game and not know every vestige or mystery or item or what have you without much trouble. I don't think anyone was really disagreeing with the idea of fiat in principle, that's just plain necessary sometimes, it was more the way that the fiat manifested in this particular instance. I was saying more that if the important decisions of the game such as who lives and dies and when are made with no regard to the rules, perhaps a different game system would be better to tell your story as a DM.

But that wasn't 'who lives and who dies'. It was 'can I go through this wall'! I don't know what the adventure was about, but obviously going through walls was important and would have ruined it. Yes, he planned his adventure rather poorly. Is that a crime? Whenever someone chooses bad feats, aren't we all advocating the DM to let the guy retrain the feats away or create another character?
I think in the other situations, this specific DM simply screwed up by himself. In this case? The player was too rough on him. He commited a mistake, so what?
Also, if you don't like his style, well, don't play under him.

rweird

2011-12-24, 12:29 PM

The first time i had a horrible DM he sent us through the Tomb of Horrors. He DMPCed an 11th level rouge that lead us through all the traps. He had us fight a few things that always ran around the front line fighter and targeted me, the archer. He had us get Resurrected whenever we died and he had us fight some demon instead of the gargoyle thing. The demon teleported the bard into a 10 by 10 room with no save where it killed him. I asked if the teleport Spell-like Ability affects self plus 50 pounds of non-living matter. He ignored it, even though all the demons that have the Greater teleport ability have that restriction. The next session he had us wake up, helpless, being carried by vampires with no memory excepts we "survived the tomb of horrors."

He railroaded us in some vampire V.S. werewolves thing. I asked why the vampires didn't all die from the sun after we "fought" as in he said we where in "a long day on the battlefield" where my archer got killed but the "toned down werewolf lord" in my sig. I got reincarnated as a halfling and the dwarven defender died and got reincarnated as an elf. After that we found this necromancer that the vampires said would give us a reward. He said come to my castle and i won't instruct my undead not to kill you. I said, lets leave but everyone else went along with it. we ended the session after fighting a zombie and the campaign got discontinued.

LansXero

2011-12-24, 12:31 PM

Its a matter of attitude; the DM should try to come up with a plausible reason at the very least. No, it doesnt matter whats important to him, because there is a tacit agreement that the world has to make some sort of sense (as in, follow the rules) or suspension of disbelief breaks and you are just a bunch of guys rolling dice. If he couldnt come up with a reason, he shouldve made a mistery out of it. He shouldve let him try and fail and describe some sort of effect on his blinking (you blink through the outer stone layer but something behind it keeps you away; you blink but feel nothing happening, as if you couldnt leave the material plane behind, etc) and it would make more sense. Even if the player is no wiser about it, he THINKS the DM does know why its not happening, even if the DM doesnt actually know, and all are happier.

JadePhoenix

2011-12-24, 12:46 PM

Its a matter of attitude; the DM should try to come up with a plausible reason at the very least.
Of course he should! Was there any way for the wizard to discover it? No.

No, it doesnt matter whats important to him, because there is a tacit agreement that the world has to make some sort of sense (as in, follow the rules) or suspension of disbelief breaks and you are just a bunch of guys rolling dice. If he couldnt come up with a reason, he shouldve made a mistery out of it.
That is EXACTLY what I said.

He shouldve let him try and fail and describe some sort of effect on his blinking (you blink through the outer stone layer but something behind it keeps you away; you blink but feel nothing happening, as if you couldnt leave the material plane behind, etc) and it would make more sense. Even if the player is no wiser about it, he THINKS the DM does know why its not happening, even if the DM doesnt actually know, and all are happier.
I agree completely. In fact, again, that's exactly what I said.

Venger

2011-12-24, 01:00 PM

But that wasn't 'who lives and who dies'. It was 'can I go through this wall'! I don't know what the adventure was about, but obviously going through walls was important and would have ruined it. Yes, he planned his adventure rather poorly. Is that a crime? Whenever someone chooses bad feats, aren't we all advocating the DM to let the guy retrain the feats away or create another character?
I think in the other situations, this specific DM simply screwed up by himself. In this case? The player was too rough on him. He commited a mistake, so what?
Also, if you don't like his style, well, don't play under him.

oh, I thought you were talking about the original poster, with his literal "rocks fall" story.

DoctorGlock

2011-12-24, 02:35 PM

It wasn't even a particularly important wall, it was more that the DM was to lazy to do anything other than run through a recycled dungeon for people of far lower level. This same DM often cancelled because he "didn't feel like running a game tonight" (about 50% of the time) and just overall threw together craptastic encounters. We literally fought breeding rhinos once because he said they were to big to go around on the road. On a flat grassland plain. Which was spontaneously impassibly thick forest for this encounter. The same way the aforementioned wall was spontaneously "special"

This guy was not a savant of complex plots or dungeon building genius, just a lazy bum who couldn't run a game to save his life. He's a great player and I have no problem letting him in my games, but playing under him... just no.

The Glyphstone

2011-12-24, 02:38 PM

He said come to my castle and i won't instruct my undead not to kill you.

But if you stay away from the castle, he will instruct the undead not to kill you?:smallconfused:

Velaryon

2011-12-24, 03:49 PM

I'd just like to point out that an owlbear skeleton is mindless and that you have to spend move actions to give orders to summoned creatures.
Also, how did your cleric know that the boots were boots of teleportation anyway?
You're fighting railroading with metagaming, I don't think you're doing any better than your DM, really.

Could you tell me where this comes from? I have never seen rules about commanding summoned creatures costing an action, nor was I able to find it via google.

I've had two or three times where a D&D game went pretty badly, though I don't think it's as bad as some of the other stories here.

First one that comes to mind was a Ravenloft campaign I played back in the 3.0 days. One of our first missions was to steal a magical cloak from... I think it was a museum, and turn it over to the quest-giver. One of the PC's (who, in the DM's defense generally plays Chaotic Stupid and goes through an average or 3-4 characters per campaign) puts on the cloak, and is immediately strangled to death by it, no save. The DM informs us it was a cursed item that the quest-giver was going to use to assassinate someone, and that he had supposedly warned us not to put it on (he hadn't). The player rolls up a new character and play continues.

A few sessions later, we are summoned to Castle Ravenloft by Count Strahd, who wants us to do some work for him. Upon exiting the castle, we are surprise attacked by a group of archers and a wizard, who had cast a mass haste spell on the archers so they could all take an extra attack on us. The wizard also specifically targets my character with fire spells, because the DM knew that my character carried explosives in his backpack which could potentially explode if exposed to fire. Theoretically, could a wizard know this via scrying and such? Of course. Do I believe that actually happened? Not for a minute. The DM was metagaming to try and make my pack explode.

After the surprise round, those of us who are still standing initiative in and try to fight back. We are TPK'd by the end of the first round. Turns out this was so that we could be raised as a special kind of undead called Shadow Samurai, imported from the Oriental Adventures campaign. No motive was ever given for the wizard/archer ambush, and we never saw those characters again.

Later in the same campaign, we were captured by an enemy wizard because he cast mass hold person on us, and the DM declared that we all failed without letting us roll.

I was once in a Forgotten Realms game that was terrible not for any specific thing that the DM did, but because he was just unbelievably boring. For starters, he refused to run the game if even one player was unable to show up, which resulted in several surprise cancellations when someone had a last-minute thing that kept them from coming. On top of that, he was the worst DM I have ever seen at describing setting and location, or giving us anything at all memorable to do.

Our sessions were few and far between, and no one was having that much fun anyway. But the DM was bound and determined to continue his story, and since he was our friend we went along with it as long as we could. The game was so generic and dull that none of us could remember any important details from one game to the next, and we even forgot what the other party members were playing. I think I vaguely remember an entire village of elves that had vanished and something about a stone circle on the ground, but that's it.

One player couldn't even remember his own character because he had lost the sheet, so he rolled up a Psion whose personality was based on Sigmund Freud, and bought a portable hole in which he carried a couch and a chair he would pull out to psychoanalyze random people.

The only fun any of us had was the random goofing off some of the characters did in order to amuse themselves since the plot wasn't going anywhere. I was playing a wild elf barbarian/ranger, typical feral child raised by wolves or whatever, and one of the other PCs and I spent a good half hour with him trying to explain to me the concept of money, and why I couldn't just take what I wanted from the food vendors in town. I feel bad that we derailed the game this way, but the DM gave us absolutely nothing to work with to make the game interesting.

I know, both small potatoes compared to what some people here have been through, but that's all I can think to add to the horror stories.

Venger

2011-12-24, 04:12 PM

Could you tell me where this comes from? I have never seen rules about commanding summoned creatures costing an action, nor was I able to find it via google.

this is not a rule, they act automatically on your turn and attack your enemies to the best of their ability. commanding summons is not an action.

maybe you were thinking of "talking is a free action" for those fancy summon monsters who have languages and you care about talking to? because a move action isn't a free action either

Velaryon

2011-12-24, 04:17 PM

this is not a rule, they act automatically on your turn and attack your enemies to the best of their ability. commanding summons is not an action.

maybe you were thinking of "talking is a free action" for those fancy summon monsters who have languages and you care about talking to? because a move action isn't a free action either

That's what I thought. I was confused as to where "commanding summoned monsters is a move action" was coming from, and I was curious to see whether it would also apply to a necromancer commanding their undead, but it doesn't seem to actually exist anywhere that I can see.

Jheska

2011-12-24, 06:17 PM

Its a 4e rule as far as I know

hisnamehere

2011-12-24, 06:37 PM

Some (I deem important) things to remember, as DM and/or player:

- You are gathered together to communally tell a story; work together so all are satisfied with plot and pacing.
- Make sure everyone is on the same page when creating a gaming group. Take a poll and develop a campaign style/theme/atmosphere agreed upon by all/most.
- If you want to play a game that is totally based around the rules, DM and all, you might prefer electronic gaming. Part of the charm of tabletop gaming is the ability to bend/break the rules when thematically appropriate. But, of course, see previous point.
- As in real life, we appreciate those things for which we work for; don't give your players' characters' wildest dreams by level 3. They will appreciate their gains more if they need to work for them, rather than having them handed over without so much as a die roll.
- DMing is hard work. Give your DM a break. The great ones are great storytellers that love to write. Many are doing you a favour so that you may play rather than DM. If you've many problems with your DM, take his/her place and see if you can do better.

I think that's it. Gospel, I tell you.

P.S. Of course, I've been less-than-satisfied with DMs in the past, and present.

Happy gaming,

killem2

2011-12-24, 06:51 PM

I think if most DMs took an english comp 1 class and used the revamped magic item comp treasure table, I don't think many of these stories would happen nearly as much :P

Destro_Yersul

2011-12-24, 08:28 PM

My point is not that it was alright for him to say 'because I said so', my point is that it's alright not to tell why couldn't do it.

But that's not what he did. You are defending him doing something that never happened.

Venger

2011-12-25, 01:09 AM

Its a 4e rule as far as I know

ah, okay then. my game was 3.5, so that accounts for the discrepancy

rt_tlp

2011-12-25, 03:08 AM

Okay, so I know I'm a little late to the party considering the argument that's been in this thread and has mostly winded down at this point, but I feel like indulging my vanity and making some input. It IS Christmas after all.

My opinion on DM'ing is simple: As a DM, I am a storyteller and a performer above all else. Yes, I am a referee and a designer, but those are for MY benefit more than for the players'. My world exists so that they can run around in it and have fun. The campaign I designed for them is there to give them a rough idea of what to do so that I'm not throwing them in a totally-empty sandbox and saying "do something." At any point in time, they are free to do what the wish, but there is a central plot which they can follow, providing a sense of continuity to the world which, I feel, is satisfying both to myself and my players. At the very least, my players always seem pretty happy to take the bait I give them.

At the end of the day, however, my enjoyment as a DM comes from knowing that I have been successful in amusing my players. No one should leave my table feeling like they lost X hours of their life. For this reason, I indulge every strange whim my players have, even when they're desperately trying to break my plotline, but it is possible to say "no" without actually saying no as a DM. Furthermore, it is possible to do it without knowing every rule in the book. Which brings me to my (oh god, it's been a long time since I've written an essay if it took me this long to get here...) thesis: As a DM, metagaming, railroading, and even rule-bending are acceptable when done artfully and for the sake of the group's long-term enjoyment.

Some examples:
(All Pathfinder)
Metagaming
During a bossfight in a particular story arc, it became evident (to me) a few rounds into the fight that somehow, the boss I had put together was actually not going to cut it in this fight. At least, it wasn't going to cut it if I assumed basic knowledge from the boss' perspective. This boss had to die, however, because he had nowhere to run to at this point. I couldn't let a boss fight be so anticlimactic, however, so I whipped up an excuse for some emergency metagaming.

After becoming distraught at the realization that his spells were proving ineffective against the group, he panicked. Instead of following the normal logical procession of targets, he began casting at targets "at random" and "somehow" stumbled across a well-hidden weak link in the party (that I, of course, knew about) and was able to significantly lower the party's damage output by knocking down a disguised undead familiar. As a result, by the end of the battle, the party had 2/5 members unconscious and the battle lasted a solid half-an-hour with a solid foundation in tactics and some really nerve-wracking die rolls in there. The party left the battle feeling very satisfied.

Railroading
This one... I really don't feel the need to give much of an example for. I think every DM knows this needs to be done once in a while, and sometimes the players don't even know it. Still, just to be consistent, here's the most heavy-handed method of railroading that I think I've ever done.

The players had wandered into a house I hadn't expected them to want to touch until later in the plotline because I hadn't even made it look interesting just yet. Nevertheless, the house WAS interesting, but it was way too early for them to be there just yet. It would literally eat them alive. So when one of them snuck in through a window to scout it out, he was feeling his way around the wall and when he removed his hand from the wall he was surrounded by total darkness. He could no longer feel the wall when he put his hand back. Eventually, a light appeared in the distance. The player hesitant followed it until he approached a floating orb which showed him a picture of the destination the party should have been headed to. When he touches the orb, he finds himself back in the house with his hand on the doorknob outside of the house, with the party off to his left staring into the window he entered from expecting him to return that way.

(Fun fact: He pickpocketed 2 of the party before they noticed he was back. I prevented the players who got pickpocketed from metagaming...but his pizza slices DID get stolen later that night. Not my jurisdiction.)

Rule-bending
This is a short section.

Badass/Aesthetic factor: Big Plotline-Related Guy gets to wield 2 2-handed weapons with no penalties without any feats allowing him to do so.

Realism factor: Kobold-made healing potion only heals 1d8 instead of 1d8 +1 because it's made by Kobolds.

Dramatic factor: The newly-risen corpse of the once-grand holy warrior is somehow immune to the damage usually caused to undead by positive energy.

Whoops factor: Oh. That's right. I forgot that's how Color Spray worked. Well... er... now it doesn't. ...C'mon, it wouldn't really be that fun if this went that easily, would it?
(even I have my off-days)

In summation, we as DMs are not perfect. And many of us... well, many of us suck. The only good DM, I believe, is a DM that is willing to improve his or her style of DM'ing.

Side note:

"Ok, so instead of confronting the cultists I am going to mine plottanium from the walls" "F you"

Plottanium: A substance which is as hard, malleable, ductile, durable, conductive, magical, magnetic, transparent, colorful, rare, edible, etc. as is either most or least convenient at the time.

I am keeping this idea.

rweird

2011-12-25, 09:13 AM

But if you stay away from the castle, he will instruct the undead not to kill you?:smallconfused:

His undead where at his castle. I think they had the default order "Kill all living creatures."

JadePhoenix

2011-12-25, 12:43 PM

That's what I thought. I was confused as to where "commanding summoned monsters is a move action" was coming from, and I was curious to see whether it would also apply to a necromancer commanding their undead, but it doesn't seem to actually exist anywhere that I can see.

I got confused with the 4e rule, really. Sorry.
Even then, how the cleric somehow knew the boots were boots of teleportation is anyone's guess.

Metahuman1

2011-12-25, 12:54 PM

The DM said "This NPC uses his boots of Teleportation" When he tried to use them.

JadePhoenix

2011-12-25, 01:01 PM

The DM said "This NPC uses his boots of Teleportation" When he tried to use them.

Yeah, the player knew. The character didn't. BIG difference.
Also, activating boots of teleportation does not provoke attacks of oportunity, so if it was like you said it, the player simply didn't follow the rules.

Venger

2011-12-25, 01:30 PM

I got confused with the 4e rule, really. Sorry.that's cool, it happens.

Yeah, the player knew. The character didn't. BIG difference.
Also, activating boots of teleportation does not provoke attacks of oportunity, so if it was like you said it, the player simply didn't follow the rules.

generally, I would agree with you, but there was no important difference in this game between the two, no immersion to speak of, and as mentioned, if he had just activating them, you'd definitely be right, but moving away from the owlbear's threatened space did, so he got AoOed

and, well, yeah, this game was bad, it's a thread about horrible DMs, so I'm no longer in it

Deimess

2011-12-25, 05:36 PM

I have had very little experiences as bad as some of the above :smalleek: but the worst experience I had was a game at GenCon where they didn't have enough tables and my group was crammed into a table that totaled to 16 people. To scale the combat, the DM added 1 mob per extra player (which in 4e, for 16 level 1s, was WAY to difficult of a scale). The table size was supposed to be 6.

It was terrible. It was a tour-bus adventure that eventually got us to an ambush scene where we were attacked by (because of the +1mob/bonus character) a horde of bandits. After taking forever to get in initiative order, it became clear that this would not work. At all. The DM had to call every fight after round 1 for time sake and there was no RP opportunity other than answering yes/no questions.

Again, this is nothing compared to other stories, and I DM myself and humbly try my best, only fudging and railroading for time's sake and more importantly, for fun's sake. I think that the most important thing is to have players that understand that fudging and railroading need to be done sometimes, and that metagaming can sometimes be fun. As long as they are done in moderation, player and DM fun can be maximized.

Steward

2011-12-26, 11:25 AM

ithildur

2011-12-26, 12:27 PM

Okay, so I know I'm a little late to the party considering the argument that's been in this thread and has mostly winded down at this point, but I feel like indulging my vanity and making some input. It IS Christmas after all.

My opinion on DM'ing is simple: As a DM, I am a storyteller and a performer above all else. Yes, I am a referee and a designer, but those are for MY benefit more than for the players'. My world exists so that they can run around in it and have fun. The campaign I designed for them is there to give them a rough idea of what to do so that I'm not throwing them in a totally-empty sandbox and saying "do something." At any point in time, they are free to do what the wish, but there is a central plot which they can follow, providing a sense of continuity to the world which, I feel, is satisfying both to myself and my players. At the very least, my players always seem pretty happy to take the bait I give them.

At the end of the day, however, my enjoyment as a DM comes from knowing that I have been successful in amusing my players. No one should leave my table feeling like they lost X hours of their life. For this reason, I indulge every strange whim my players have, even when they're desperately trying to break my plotline, but it is possible to say "no" without actually saying no as a DM. Furthermore, it is possible to do it without knowing every rule in the book. Which brings me to my (oh god, it's been a long time since I've written an essay if it took me this long to get here...) thesis: As a DM, metagaming, railroading, and even rule-bending are acceptable when done artfully and for the sake of the group's long-term enjoyment.

Some examples:
(All Pathfinder)
Metagaming
During a bossfight in a particular story arc, it became evident (to me) a few rounds into the fight that somehow, the boss I had put together was actually not going to cut it in this fight. At least, it wasn't going to cut it if I assumed basic knowledge from the boss' perspective. This boss had to die, however, because he had nowhere to run to at this point. I couldn't let a boss fight be so anticlimactic, however, so I whipped up an excuse for some emergency metagaming.

After becoming distraught at the realization that his spells were proving ineffective against the group, he panicked. Instead of following the normal logical procession of targets, he began casting at targets "at random" and "somehow" stumbled across a well-hidden weak link in the party (that I, of course, knew about) and was able to significantly lower the party's damage output by knocking down a disguised undead familiar. As a result, by the end of the battle, the party had 2/5 members unconscious and the battle lasted a solid half-an-hour with a solid foundation in tactics and some really nerve-wracking die rolls in there. The party left the battle feeling very satisfied.

Railroading
This one... I really don't feel the need to give much of an example for. I think every DM knows this needs to be done once in a while, and sometimes the players don't even know it. Still, just to be consistent, here's the most heavy-handed method of railroading that I think I've ever done.

The players had wandered into a house I hadn't expected them to want to touch until later in the plotline because I hadn't even made it look interesting just yet. Nevertheless, the house WAS interesting, but it was way too early for them to be there just yet. It would literally eat them alive. So when one of them snuck in through a window to scout it out, he was feeling his way around the wall and when he removed his hand from the wall he was surrounded by total darkness. He could no longer feel the wall when he put his hand back. Eventually, a light appeared in the distance. The player hesitant followed it until he approached a floating orb which showed him a picture of the destination the party should have been headed to. When he touches the orb, he finds himself back in the house with his hand on the doorknob outside of the house, with the party off to his left staring into the window he entered from expecting him to return that way.

(Fun fact: He pickpocketed 2 of the party before they noticed he was back. I prevented the players who got pickpocketed from metagaming...but his pizza slices DID get stolen later that night. Not my jurisdiction.)

Rule-bending
This is a short section.

Badass/Aesthetic factor: Big Plotline-Related Guy gets to wield 2 2-handed weapons with no penalties without any feats allowing him to do so.

Realism factor: Kobold-made healing potion only heals 1d8 instead of 1d8 +1 because it's made by Kobolds.

Dramatic factor: The newly-risen corpse of the once-grand holy warrior is somehow immune to the damage usually caused to undead by positive energy.

Whoops factor: Oh. That's right. I forgot that's how Color Spray worked. Well... er... now it doesn't. ...C'mon, it wouldn't really be that fun if this went that easily, would it?
(even I have my off-days)

In summation, we as DMs are not perfect. And many of us... well, many of us suck. The only good DM, I believe, is a DM that is willing to improve his or her style of DM'ing.

Side note:

Plottanium: A substance which is as hard, malleable, ductile, durable, conductive, magical, magnetic, transparent, colorful, rare, edible, etc. as is either most or least convenient at the time.

I am keeping this idea.

I would totally play in a campaign you DMed. :smallsmile:

Aidan305

2011-12-26, 12:47 PM

Thankfully, I've generally managed to have good GMs, and a good enough player to "help" those less able. There was one game, however, where the GM pulled something that seriously ruined the enjoyment of the game for everyone involved by making use of that most dreaded character: The GMPC.

She was a 10-year old girl who had stowed away on my ship. I decided that I would put her off on the next island we came to with enough funds to make her way home. On the next island, however, we uncovered a secret cave, haunted by the ghost of the pirate who buried his treasure there.

We were already getting slightly annoyed by the antics of the girl, so we chained her to a tree "in order to keep her safe" and went in to the cave. The girl managed to escape, so we repeated our actions using more chains and a guard. When we encountered the ghost, we did it some extremely large amount of damage, but the damn things just wouldn't die. At this point the PC guarding the girl noticed that she seemed to be acting strange, posessed even. Eventually, when we as the party had exhausted literally every other option we had we let the girl go. She went in to the cave, banished the ghost and took the loot which "she had been destined to have". We, the players, were pretty furious by this point. This was a character who we had done everything possible to ignore or leave behind who was rendering completely useless anything we wished to do. We were getting rid of her if it was the last thing we did.

So we took her home, to meet a blockade of enemy ships, preventing use from landing there. At this last straw we put her in a barrel "for her own good", nailed it shut, wrapped it in chains, put that barrel in another, filled all remaining space with gunpowder, sealed that one in the same way, and tossed it overboard.

At this point the GM realised that we might not like this wonderful character he created and promised never to do it again. He didn't.

Daftendirekt

2011-12-26, 12:49 PM

Wait, if I'm reading that right, to fix the overcrowding caused by having 16 PCs at one table, he decided to double the number of characters each person was playing (bring it to 32)? I must be reading that wrong because that doesn't seem right at all!

Yes, you are reading it wrong. The encounter as written was too easy for 16 people. So, he made it so it was 1 enemy per person playing, which, at level 1, is far too many enemies to fight at once.

Who the **** would even want to play a 16 person party? 6 is enough for me, not sure I'd want to go any higher than that.

meto30

2011-12-26, 01:36 PM

I have one horrible DMing (at least according the the united opinions of the players) episode that I'd like to share. I'd laugh at this if only I wasn't the DM the episode involves.

Our campaign is a 3.5e Forgotten Realms campaign (the campaign is still ongoing). One of my players decided to stay true to his alignment (and backstory) and as a result of multiple decisions made himself an enemy of the Blackstaff(if you don't know FR, he's an epic-level wizard infamous for medling with the affairs of other people and owns a secret organization to do just that). As I was determined to keep the setting realistic (as in if things are supposed to happen, they happen) and so I had Teukiir agents (Blackstaff's followers) kill the entire party off. The party was at average level 6 at the time, and I believed Blackstaff wouldn't take chances with this, so the agents sent were 5 level 12 characters who were defended specifically against the element the party's sorcerer specielized in. Naturally, the party was massacred.

I thought myself completely justified at the time (I don't now) but as to be expected the entire party went berserk when the last combat ended. The leader of the party (the sorcerer) threatened to quit the game immediately in a fit of rage, and I had to negotiate a ceasefire and then a plea bargain to salvage the game. I learned a lot from that day though and I only had three similiar episodes since then, and I saw all of them coming before they actually exploded in my face.

Althought the party still complains periodically that the campaign difficulty is too hard. But come on, I've got to have some fun too ;)

DoctorGlock

2011-12-26, 01:54 PM

Metahuman1

2011-12-26, 01:55 PM

lord pringle

2011-12-26, 01:58 PM

When my old (and current) DM went back to Alaska for the summer, the game store (where we played) owner's nephew, who was working there, decided to DM for us, since I wasn't DMing at the time. I joined the group a week late. It was a train wreck. I played a half-orc monk (we weren't optimized at all) and DM-guy asks me what god I've devoted my life to. I say to him, "Um.. no that's a cleric," He responds, "[My name here] do you know what a monk even is?" I tell him that monks aren't religious in D&D and he says it never says that anywhere in any book. I show him the excerpt that says monks aren't like real-world monks and he says this world's monks are different. I decide not to argue because its his world. The rest of the party's wagon comes to my monastery of Kord and due to some issues their wagon explodes. I use my strength (Note: at this time we're 1st level) to clear the wreckage and save the bard. They hire me and we buy a wagon and I leave my home. It turns out that we're adventuring with two absolutely nauseating DMPCs. One of them nauseated me because he was a twelfth level wizard with save DCs of No-one with stands me, who for some reason didn't help us in combat ever. The wizard also had all the gear he wanted and a young adult silver dragon familiar Our head quarter was inside his ginormous for no reason bag of holding. The other nauseating character was a female bard 3/druid 5 who existed for no reason then to be the romantic interest for the bard. There was no real plot and one day the wizard forced us to do gladiatorial combat but we could heal up from his Pepsi vending machine that produced infinite healing potions. I finished the session and didn't game again for a year.

Arbane

2011-12-26, 02:03 PM

Amateurs. Behold the soul-dessicating horror of Al Bruno III's BINDER OF SHAME (http://albruno3.blogspot.com/p/binder-of-shame.html). Scroll down to "RPG.net Rant".

(Warning: Not safe for work, play or sanity. Also, you will probably never want to drink Mountain Dew ever again.) :smallbiggrin:

meto30

2011-12-26, 02:14 PM

I think "Forgotten Realms Campaign" automatically enters "worst D&D experience" on its own. Canonically the NPCs do exactly what you describe and every town and third rate settlement has at least one epic level hobo.

Well, I as the DM had the choice over what setting to use, and I chose FR because I was most familiar with it, and moreover I thought it had the best potential for epic(as in epic poem, not epic character) RPing. Besides, it had the most 'realistic' feal among the settings; at least me and the party felt that way. :)

As of right now (9 months from that episode) one of the things the players enjoy most is being involved in political intrigue between all those higher level NPCs and trying to survive in a world full of powerful factions and their powerful members. So I guess FR is right for our party?

The party sorcerer specialized in an element. Meaning he was blasting and not save or suck/lose/dieing. From This I deduce the party is probably unoptimized.

I had warned them that the difficulty will probably be hard, but we also agreed early on that we play D&D to be characters we wanna be, not neccesarily powerful, but what conforms to our personal fantasies. So I encouraged them to build characters they felt would be fun to RP.

This all revolves around this concept of 'reality' that me and my party always look for. People don't always make a very smart choice. But then there are very smart people in the world who'd take advantage of that fact. And we live with it. I guess it's our way of playing the game.

DoctorGlock

2011-12-26, 02:37 PM

As of right now (9 months from that episode) one of the things the players enjoy most is being involved in political intrigue between all those higher level NPCs and trying to survive in a world full of powerful factions and their powerful members. So I guess FR is right for our party?

I suppose, but most people I know have terrible FR experiences, including myself. I generally like the "big damn heroes" part of D&D, being little fish while elminister dukes it out with vecna and being unable to change anything in the world because of how closely the uber NPCs are tied into everything is a real bummer to me.

meto30

2011-12-26, 03:19 PM

I suppose, but most people I know have terrible FR experiences, including myself. I generally like the "big damn heroes" part of D&D, being little fish while elminister dukes it out with vecna and being unable to change anything in the world because of how closely the uber NPCs are tied into everything is a real bummer to me.

There is always the possibility of leveling up high enought and defeating some of those pesky NPCs. A possibility that I promised my own players :smallbiggrin:

DoctorGlock

2011-12-26, 03:24 PM

There is always the possibility of leveling up high enought and defeating some of those pesky NPCs. A possibility that I promised my own players :smallbiggrin:

Except when most of the worst offenders literally have a god on their side who can and will intervene (cough elminster cough). Even if they can be beaten, the preponderance of mary sues just ticks me off.

rmg22893

2011-12-26, 09:18 PM

One time we let our DM's brother DM. We figured that our DM was really good, so his brother couldn't be terrible, right? We were WRONG.

After him taking an hour to roll up some NPCs, we started out in a tavern, where every single door was locked and sentient, telling us not to open them. Open Lock failed automatically each time. Eventually we found a "wand of turning things pink" and a "wand of orgasmic effects." After wreaking hilarity upon some less fortunate party members, an "extremely attractive" female elf appears, and casts sleep on us all, and we all automatically fail it, and are sold into slavery. We bring up that some of us are elven, and cannot therefore be subjected to sleep, and he says "Oh, well then those of you who are elven are her personal pleasure slaves to the end of your days."

I'm pretty sure he was looking at pr0nz the entire time he was DMing...

Steward

2011-12-26, 09:44 PM

How long did you take to figure out that the game was a waste of time?

Phaederkiel

2011-12-26, 11:15 PM

Two little stories which made us quit the dms in question and dm for ourselves.

Starting Lvl: 4

We had asked the dm beforehand what books we could use, and anything was fair except exalted. So I did some research and found some rather nice things in the MiC which he had not seen before. He allowed them anyway.

After seeing us fight for the first time, he randomly teleports us in Time. There are some interesting clues about how we got teleported, most of the contradicting. The city guard comes and we play nice and go with them.
At which point his intentions get uncovered: we lose all our Items. Some RP later we get into a position where we can do some inquisiting about our coming here. So we get teleported again, without our new items, and all the clues are contradicting...

guys: Time travel is neither a good way to get rid of equip you do not like (especially if the Character really needs it - as our wizards book, which was gone too), nor is a good way to cover plot incongruencies. Especially if those come from time traveling.

and then there is the story where our gm didn´t like our decisionmaking...

there was an hobgoblin warcamp we had to stop. So we struck surgically and got their highpriest. from over 500 foot away, hiding. With an burning arrow with darkness cast on it. One round later all 8 of the ogres the goblins had decided to be Hulkin hurlers, knew our exact position and started throwing. And hitting. 'Cause Range increments are for wusses, Cover and hiding too.

Railroading by firepower.

TriForce

2011-12-26, 11:20 PM

Mantarni

2011-12-27, 04:48 AM

So, I designed the character to be the party face who acted like an idiot as a front but did everything for a very calculated reason. Everything he did was for his own eventual gain, but he did stuff while making it look random and slightly schizophrenic. Alignment - Chaotic Neutral. I explained this and everything when I made the character. Kinda like a more medieval Columbo, I even planned ahead for an opportunity that never came for below DM reasons to have him suddenly be composed and competent and show his true nature.

It still bothers me, the DM had no comprehension of subtlety or something. The rest of the party would do whatever they wanted by brute force without repercussion, but my char would try something through diplomacy and subtle maneuvering and either be shooed off or treated like public enemy #1. They kill, steal, burn and blackmail? Fine! He (finally, after somehow being the most lawful person there despite being CN) does something marginally morally questionable out of sheer frustration (he took something minor that was nearby out of spite after a npc was a particularly noticeable a###### towards him)? WE NOW HAVE CONSEQUENCES AND HE MUST BE TAKEN DOWN! :smallfurious:

I was the only person built to be a face and I ended up giving up having him talk at all, because apparently cha really was the dump stat there. Every time I tried it would fail and the rest of the party would just force it and rp it away.

I suspect that the reason for this might have been because I would tell the DM what I was trying to go for in the 'scene'/interaction, but after I informed the DM of that that I didn't stop and take time to explain my intentions for every single tiny thing despite them all adding up to that overall goal I had just stated. So I guess the DM couldn't make the connection and blew it off as chaotic stupid or something, despite everything I had said to the contrary.

...Actually, now that I think back on it, I was also the only person in the group to not just run up and hit/blast stuff (including the enemies, who would do things like abandoning their 3-way flanking of our fighters and go through 3 AoO each to attack the casters only to turn back to the fighers, apparently so everyone would take damage). I recall trying and failing on getting everyone to not spread out and run to random enemies and instead fight with strategy, too. I guess the moral here is to always have a DM at least on a similar level of smarts as you, so they can follow what you are trying without bogging the game down. Same with players.

DrDeth

2011-12-27, 12:34 PM

we had cornered a miniboss after mowing down henchmen and getting just absolutely wrecked. we were level 4, a knight, a monk, a beguiler, and a cleric (me). the DM bragged about how the boss was a "level 12 dashing swordsman"

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)

yeah. D&Dwiki.

I put on my best "challenge accepted" face and summoned some owlbear skeletons and had one of them attack. he tried to move away from the owlbear to activate his boots of teleportation (yes he tells us they are such) (again, we are level 4)

Umm, how does a 4th level PC summon a owlbear skeleton?

Daftendirekt

2011-12-27, 02:02 PM

Summon Undead II, Libris Mortis. You can summon a Large Skeleton.

Check MM1. The large skeleton given is an owlbear.

Greenish

2011-12-27, 02:42 PM

I put on my best "challenge accepted" face and summoned some owlbear skeletons and had one of them attack. he tried to move away from the owlbear to activate his boots of teleportation (yes he tells us they are such) (again, we are level 4) and provokes an AoO from the owlbear who successfully sunders them. he then tries to say that the cape he is wearing is a flying carpet and that he will try to move away from the other owlbear whose threat radius he is within to activate it. I tell him I'll just sunder that too if he keeps pulling OP magic items out of his ass and he lets it lie.You can't sunder armour or worn items (such as boots or cloak). A level 12 character, even NPC, would probably have some useful magic items. Also, given that you forced the NPC to retreat, I don't think the level-disparity was a great big problem either.

In fact, it seems the biggest problem your DM has is letting himself to be browbeaten by his players who don't know the rules any better. :smallamused:

The Glyphstone

2011-12-27, 02:44 PM

You can't sunder armour or worn items (such as boots or cloak). A level 12 character, even NPC, would probably have some useful magic items. Also, given that you forced the NPC to retreat, I don't think the level-disparity was a great big problem either.

In fact, it seems the biggest problem your DM has is letting himself to be browbeaten by his players who don't know the rules any better. :smallamused:

...you absolutely can sunder a worn object. Armor, no. Anything else, yes.
Sundering a Carried or Worn Object

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

Greenish

2011-12-27, 02:50 PM

:smallredface: Reading failure. Oh well, you can totally sunder someone's boots.

[Edit]: I still don't think the existence of said items was an example of terrible DMing on it's own, though.

Steward

2011-12-27, 02:54 PM

Mantarni, yours sounds less like "horrible DM" and more like "horrible mismatch between gaming styles, gradually evolving into childish abuse of double standards by the DM".

Tyndmyr

2011-12-27, 03:06 PM

DM:So, one day, ya'll are visiting a WW 1 museum and...
P2: Wait. I'm a rapper. He's a mob boss. We banded together because of creepy clues from beyond the grave to investigate the supernatural. Why are we taking history lessons?
DM: You just are. Anyhow, you see a bunch of old guns and stuff in the museum.
Me: Are they deactivated, or are they usable guns.
DM: Deactivated. It's a museum.
Me: Reasonable. Just checking.
DM: There's a bunch of trenches that claim to be hauled over from Germany.
P2: Wait. How do you transport a trench. It's a long hole in the ground. You can't pick up a hole.
DM: They lugged the whole area of the battlefield over. Anyhow, a wild eyed man starts chanting a spell and...
P2: We shoot him.
DM: You don't have enough time, you didn't have readied actions or anything. Anyway, and the dirt starts seperating and dead people...
Me: Wait, Raise Dead has a one minute casting time.
P2: Yeah. We shoot him. For a minute straight.
Me: Also, I'm pretty sure it's a touch spell, so it doesn't work on everything regardless.
DM: Fine, you all kill him. Now I have nothing to run tonight.
P2: You didn't start looking for an adventure until ten minutes before we got here. Go find one that doesn't suck.
Me: Meh, whatever. It's all worth xp, right?
P2: Yeah, I guess.
DM: Twenty german soldiers crawl out of the ground, holding old firearms.
Me: You know we're level four, right?
P2: We start shooting them.
Me: Hell yes.
DM: Two of them crawl over to the machine gun
Me: Wait, that square is a machine gun?
P2: *censored*
DM: The rest of them start shooting at you with their rifles.
Me: Seriously? With hundred year old rifles?
P2: That are filled with dirt?
Me: And loaded?
Me: And seriously, did the museum just miss a couple dozen bodies laying around? What, did they keep them around for people to walk through for sanitation reasons?
DM: Also, two of them climb into the tank.
P2: *DM name*, I hate you, and I hope you die.
*We eventually kill everything, mostly due to a string of lucky saves(every tank shot was an AOE Save or Die.) and great AC.*
DM: The proprieter, grateful
P2: Wait, where was this guy? All the bystanders died horribly.
Me: Museums are just owned by private people hanging around, collecting bodies? That sounds wrong.
DM: to you both, gives you...rolls...27 wealth points. Oh wait, it's like 12 wealth points for both, and 27 wealth points to whoever sells the spellbook you looted.
P2: That seems...retarded.
Me: Yeah. I'm going to go buy a fleet of magical attack helicopters now.
DM: How bout if I said just 12 wealth each?
Us: You're an idiot. We're retconning this session.

The worst part? The above is an official module for D20 M.

The Glyphstone

2011-12-27, 03:07 PM

:smallredface: Reading failure. Oh well, you can totally sunder someone's boots.

[Edit]: I still don't think the existence of said items was an example of terrible DMing on it's own, though.

Not the existence, so much, but I'd say the spontaneous existence is an example. "He's got Boots of Teleportation now. Oh, he also has a Carpet of Flying, that counts as armor so it's unsunderable." Not to mention that the boots are 55% of a PC's WBL for level 12 - almost double what a level 12 NPC would be carrying, and roughly 89% of a 15th-level NPC's WBL. He'd have to be a 16th level NPC to afford the Carpet as well, and that's assuming he has almost nothing else on him.

DoctorGlock

2011-12-27, 03:09 PM

D20 M seems to have terrible stories surrounding it. I love the premise, but the system was clunky as heck and utterly mserable.

Greenish

2011-12-27, 03:13 PM

Not the existence, so much, but I'd say the spontaneous existence is an example. "He's got Boots of Teleportation now. Oh, he also has a Carpet of Flying, that counts as armor so it's unsunderable." Not to mention that the boots are 55% of a PC's WBL for level 12 - almost double what a level 12 NPC would be carrying, and roughly 89% of a 15th-level NPC's WBL. He'd have to be a 16th level NPC to afford the Carpet as well, and that's assuming he has almost nothing else on him.Point about the costs (though they could've been discount versions, say, Boots of Big Stepping), but I should assume most people you're fighting are wearing footwear unless otherwise specified, and that the PCs didn't stop to check his boots beforehands.

Mantarni

2011-12-27, 05:08 PM

Point about the costs (though they could've been discount versions, say, Boots of Big Stepping), but I should assume most people you're fighting are wearing footwear unless otherwise specified, and that the PCs didn't stop to check his boots beforehands.

Then that would fall into recursive GMing, and nobody wants to write a thesis argument about that.

...Ok, a lot of people here probably do, but nobody wants to read that argument. Too much ego and too little fresh air make Forum Poster™ a dull boy. I wish those types could just make a seperate thread to argue the rules and link to that instead.

I'm saying this *coughSUBTLEcough* because I'll wager money that this post is ignored and the thread completely devolves into a rules argument, which is noticeably less entertaining than horrible DM stories.

Mantarni, yours sounds less like "horrible DM" and more like "horrible mismatch between gaming styles, gradually evolving into childish abuse of double standards by the DM".

Yeah, I figured something around that. I also really suspect that he was mentally... underpowered inflexible and couldn't figure out what I was going for because I didn't throw it in his face with all the subtlety of a flying brick, but that might be the resentment talking.

Other than that, my only other real DM gripe is one I dealt with who rebooted a campaign two times in ~3 weeks to change the scenario (prompting total character rebuilds/rewrites for it) then just dropped it entirely because the DM "wasn't in the mood to get into it anymore." Grrrr.... :smallannoyed:

CTrees

2011-12-27, 05:33 PM

I'm saying this *coughSUBTLEcough* because I'll wager money that this post is ignored and the thread completely devolves into a rules argument, which is noticeably less entertaining than horrible DM stories.

You're saying that, on this forum? Gee, look who made their Knowledge (local) check :smallannoyed:

Amateurs. Behold the soul-dessicating horror of Al Bruno III's BINDER OF SHAME (http://albruno3.blogspot.com/p/binder-of-shame.html). Scroll down to "RPG.net Rant".

(Warning: Not safe for work, play or sanity. Also, you will probably never want to drink Mountain Dew ever again.) :smallbiggrin:

Hadn't encountered these stories, before. Awesomely terrible stuff, to the extent I believe them, and hilarious, to the extent I don't. Reminds me of the (painfully horrible) old school gaming I just don't run across anymore. Not that I doubt it's out there; I just don't find it (and that's fantastic - it's anti-nostalgia, really). I forgot about ending bad campaigns by invoking Hastur repeatedly...

Mantarni

2011-12-27, 06:52 PM

You're saying that, on this forum? Gee, look who made their Knowledge (local) check :smallannoyed:

I'm toying with a new theorum of Shroedinger's principles. See, I figure that if I invoke it beforehand the chances of it occuring will actually drop, as by collapsing it from a state of potential into a more probable actuality it becomes less feasible to occur. This is due to the fact that it being mentioned before it actually comes up means that the twelve year olds will sense that it's already been brought up, so their comment on it up is no longer an edgy and innovative indicator of their totally unique and unrivaled insight and brilliance on the topic. It's like the age-young proverb, if a misunderstood brilliant loner angsts before their tragedy, can it be considered true brooding?

The Glyphstone

2011-12-27, 06:57 PM

I'm toying with a new theorum of Shroedinger's principles. See, I figure that if I invoke it beforehand the chances of it occuring will actually drop, as by collapsing it from a state of potential into a more probable actuality it becomes less feasible to occur. This is due to the fact that it being mentioned before it actually comes up means that the twelve year olds will sense that it's already been brought up, so their comment on it up is no longer an edgy and innovative indicator of their totally unique and unrivaled insight and brilliance on the topic. It's like the age-young proverb, if a misunderstood brilliant loner angsts before their tragedy, can it be considered true brooding?

So wait, is this reverse psychology to get the argument to actually be dropped, or reverse reverse psychology because you want it to continue? Or reverse reverse reverse psychology because you don't want it to continue, but do want people to think you do so they'll spite you by stopping it...

Mantarni

2011-12-27, 07:03 PM

So wait, is this reverse psychology to get the argument to actually be dropped, or reverse reverse psychology because you want it to continue? Or reverse reverse reverse psychology because you don't want it to continue, but do want people to think you do so they'll spite you by stopping it...

Yes. :smallsmile:
It makes sense if you think on a quantum level where every pulse is interconnected to inane degrees. Also, it's fun thinking like that.

Greenish

2011-12-27, 08:18 PM

Rules argument on whether people generally wear shoes? :smalltongue:

Myth

2011-12-29, 06:48 AM

the prince drew his bow and shot the guy with two arrows that "both crit"...as I was sitting next to the DM, I noticed that he happened to roll a 16 and a 7.

Stopped reading here, least I contract rabies and smash my head trough my desk. Cheating, and stupid, "custscene" like rocks falling in the middle of the fight..

Your brother is a poor, immature DM. He would probably make an annoying player to deal with, giving him the reigns of a game is just :smallmad:

DrDeth

2011-12-29, 11:32 AM

Note that a lot of these “Bad DM” stories have that very bad DM running a DMPC….

Jandrem

2011-12-29, 02:22 PM

Note that a lot of these “Bad DM” stories have that very bad DM running a DMPC….

Here we go...

The Glyphstone

2011-12-29, 02:57 PM

Note that a lot of these “Bad DM” stories have that very bad DM running a DMPC….

[/canofworms]blahblahblah

DrDeth

2011-12-29, 03:36 PM

True. A big Can 'o worms. I agree- Let us not go there, OK? :smalleek:

killem2

2011-12-29, 04:09 PM

very bad DM running a DMPC….

Yup. :smallamused:

CTrees

2011-12-29, 06:00 PM

Note that a lot of these “Bad DM” stories have that very bad DM running a DMPC very badly.

Fixed, and turned non-less controversial.

Steward

2011-12-29, 07:26 PM

I think some people become DMs because it's the only way that they can get other people to game with them.

SowZ

2011-12-29, 07:34 PM

I think some people become DMs because it's the only way that they can get other people to game with them.

Yeah, which is why poor or cliche story structure, some railroading, and less than perfect grasping of the rules are all forgivable and the DM shouldn't be criticized harshly. He/she is probably doing the best they can. What is open to criticism is DMs who don't listen to their players and don't let them do what they want to do at all. DMs more concerned with self-gratification than everyone having a good time are really annoying. If a DM is being passive aggressive towards the players by doing things like punishing players that aren't following his story OR creating NPCs that outshine/control them when the players clearly don't like it, etc. etc. he is being immature.

Grendus

2011-12-30, 12:42 AM

Steward

2011-12-30, 01:55 AM

Yeah, which is why poor or cliche story structure, some railroading, and less than perfect grasping of the rules are all forgivable and the DM shouldn't be criticized harshly. He/she is probably doing the best they can. What is open to criticism is DMs who don't listen to their players and don't let them do what they want to do at all. DMs more concerned with self-gratification than everyone having a good time are really annoying. If a DM is being passive aggressive towards the players by doing things like punishing players that aren't following his story OR creating NPCs that outshine/control them when the players clearly don't like it, etc. etc. he is being immature.

Pretty much. The first couple of things (bad writing, railroading, misunderstanding the rules) usually aren't deliberate; DMs who do those things only do it because they're inexperienced or aren't sure how to do it better. You can work with them because they probably want to do a better job (or simply haven't noticed there's anything wrong yet!)

The latter DMs are the ones that are harder to criticize though -- while some of them might be incompetent, that's not really their problem. Their problem actually has nothing to do with the game; they're just being mean, and I'm not sure that any criticism will help them. For example, PsychoDM from the famous 'That_Lanky_Bugger' story knew what he was doing was awful... and he liked it that way. You as the player can't fix that.

CTrees

2011-12-30, 10:36 AM

And, "PsychoDM" was enough of an additional term for me to finally find That Lanky Bugger's story. Holy half-celestial carp, that's crazy.

Venger

2011-12-30, 11:45 AM

Umm, how does a 4th level PC summon a owlbear skeleton?

owlbear skeles are summoned with summon undead 2, a 2nd level spell which a 3rd level cleric can cast, so a 4th lvl cleric has it available.

Tyndmyr

2011-12-30, 12:44 PM

D20 M seems to have terrible stories surrounding it. I love the premise, but the system was clunky as heck and utterly mserable.

It has some serious traps in it waiting for exploitation, and the writing of much of the supporting material is often horrific. Whoever did the menace manual appeared to have a severe fear of clowns, for instance. To those of us without this...it mostly just appears ludicrous.

Stopped reading here, least I contract rabies and smash my head trough my desk. Cheating, and stupid, "custscene" like rocks falling in the middle of the fight..

Your brother is a poor, immature DM. He would probably make an annoying player to deal with, giving him the reigns of a game is just :smallmad:

I've seen this a lot. One particular DM I knew of used to always lift the screen to "prove" he'd rolled a 20. We could tell by the delay/what he looked at it if it was an actual 20 or not. It's one reason I don't use a DM screen now. I've learned that, 95+% of the time...DM rolls don't need to be secret. The very few that do, I can roll behind my hand.

Note that a lot of these “Bad DM” stories have that very bad DM running a DMPC….

Im not surprised. The really terrible stories tend to involve a lot of mistakes, and egregiously bad ones. So, there'll be a high amount of overlap in types of mistakes made. Many of my worst stories do involve someone abusing a DMPC. However...Ive gotten bored of telling those, so this time I told one I hadn't told before. Gotta mix it up.

Pretty much. The first couple of things (bad writing, railroading, misunderstanding the rules) usually aren't deliberate; DMs who do those things only do it because they're inexperienced or aren't sure how to do it better. You can work with them because they probably want to do a better job (or simply haven't noticed there's anything wrong yet!)

The latter DMs are the ones that are harder to criticize though -- while some of them might be incompetent, that's not really their problem. Their problem actually has nothing to do with the game; they're just being mean, and I'm not sure that any criticism will help them. For example, PsychoDM from the famous 'That_Lanky_Bugger' story knew what he was doing was awful... and he liked it that way. You as the player can't fix that.

Yes, that one was....exceptionally bad. I know at least one DM locally who has a reputation as a pathologically bad DM. I've never met him myself, but the stories are truly horrifying(for instance, he likes to kill one PC at least per session. Even if it's just by saying "you die"). I've run into several people that know him, too...apparently he goes through them rapidly.

I just don't get why you'd want to DM that way.

Venger

2011-12-30, 01:00 PM

Not the existence, so much, but I'd say the spontaneous existence is an example. "He's got Boots of Teleportation now. Oh, he also has a Carpet of Flying, that counts as armor so it's unsunderable." Not to mention that the boots are 55% of a PC's WBL for level 12 - almost double what a level 12 NPC would be carrying, and roughly 89% of a 15th-level NPC's WBL. He'd have to be a 16th level NPC to afford the Carpet as well, and that's assuming he has almost nothing else on him.

thanks! you understand it perfectly, that was my precise objection to this scenario, you phrased it better.

and of course he did have other stuff on him, he was TWFing with a pair of +2 shock rapiers :/ and we got some other stuff once we were able to kill him.

Pippa the Pixie

2011-12-30, 02:39 PM

My Story:

So found a new DM to play with, met the group and they were all nice. We rolled up 1 st level characters, with me making a basic elven fighter/mage type. The Dm was a 'classic' DM and talked about the 'good old days' a lot, so I was thinking this would be a fun adventure.

We all meet at the tavern in a small city. It immediately starts to go slow as the DM absurdly insists that we can't know each other. So we waste an hour or so, not knowing each other and just 'pretend' to drink' in the tavern, but eventually all make it to the same table to hang out together. Then we hear a scream from the street, but after out hour of boredom we don't react. Everyone else(npcs) runs outside if find a murdered woman. Then the captain of the guard(who we guess was in the tavern the whole time?) comes over to our table and drafts us to be deputies/detectives and solve the crimes. The crimes are that a number of young women have been killed over the past week.

We object that we are not detectives, that we are adventurers, and that we are not even really a group as we just met and don't know each other. The guard captain just says too bad. So, fine, we will solve the mystery. The captain knows noting about the crimes. So we go out to the crime scene, with our CSI knowledge ready. There are no foot prints in the snow except hers, and there are no wounds on her body. No one knows who she is or hear or saw anything until the scream. So we waste a good half and hour and discover nothing about the crime at all. So then we try to find out what happened with the other killings. We waist another hour doing this, and find out that there is absolutely no evidence about the crimes. Not even a tiny clue. Each woman was just 'out walking for no reason' and was killed.

As a group, we were a bit put off by this. We wanted a nice adventure, but not a murder mystery......but being given one we were fine with doing CSI D&D. Yet, we had nothing to go on: no leads or clues or evidence of any kind. So we waste another hour to just try and leave the city and find some 'real' adventure in the wilderness. Of course we find the city gates locked, and the walls covered with spikes and guards everywhere(except on the streets where the women are killed, of course). In short it was impossible to leave the city.

So with nothing else to do, we wander the snow filled streets of streets of the city after dark and 'look of the killer'. And it works! Just a couple minutes later we hear a woman scream and rush over. We find a woman just as she is stabbed to death by a bloody dagger..held by nothing. The 'bloody floating dagger' then comes to attack us. We figure it's someone with invisibility so while the fighter types try and hit it, the rest of us toss snow around and try to tag our foe. One by one our fighter types go down, without hitting anything. Me and the rouge try to follow the invisible attackers foot prints in the snow, but it, of course, makes none. Our foe starts into the rest of the group. I shoot off my magic missile at the 'nothing' attacking us and it hits! And we get to see the flash of a 'ugly little man holding the dagger'. The game goes on for a couple more minutes, until we are all dead.

We all just kind sit at the table looking at each other. The DM explains that ''well sometimes characters die''. He then goes on to say he knew that we would never solve the crimes. We make a half hatred attempt to say that there was no evidence or trail or anything, but he brushes it off. We ask what the killer was and he proudly tells us it was a quickling. So it was 'only' a 3CR monster and we should have defeated it. Except we were 1st level and it had permanent invisibility and haste, not to mention it left no tracks in the snow(DM says-''it ran so fast it did not leave foot prints''). So we all just grumble and leave for the night. We ask why if the quickling killed with his dagger, why did none of the other bodies show that, but he ignored that point.

The DM called me back for another game, but I said...''no thanks''

darksolitaire

2011-12-30, 03:11 PM

I tried to find this Quickling because I didn't remember that one, and managed to google it's stats (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/fey/quickling.htm). Nasty encounter for anything that doesn't know exactly how to deal with it. And then I scrolled down and saw who originally made it :smallsigh:

VanBuren

2011-12-30, 03:27 PM

Vknight

2012-01-01, 02:37 AM

Trolling from beyond the grave.

God, I love that guy.

Who doesn't?

Yeah Quicklings are nasty little bouncing balls of daggers, move, attack, swift invisible again. So yeah and 240ft lets them outrun the PC's easily at that level

Snowbear22

2012-01-03, 01:07 AM

I have a doozy of one that beats the Quickling.

My DM had prior experience with D&D, but he was still a little fuzzy on the rules (as it will be seen in this story).

On the second session of my first ever campaign, we were playing the core 3.0 version (since those were the rulebooks on hand). We were exploring a dungeon and came across two large skeletons in the final chamber. The party (at this point we were all still level 1) consisted of a human Cleric of Ehlonna animal and sun domains, and this is the version of animal domain that gave an animal companion), an enchantment-focused gray elf wizard, a gnome druid, and a human barbarian.

In the first round of combat, I (the cleric) used my Greater Turning and destroyed both skeletons. I was still new, so I was instructed to do so my by friend who played the wizard (who had a lot more experience). Frustrated that I beat the boss in the first turn (and that the player whose character was the wizard told me how to do it, which is what the DM was really angry about) got really frustrated. He decided those skeletons were not the "real" bosses and promptly decided a Rakshasa (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rakshasa.htm) broke through the wall and started attacking us. (The DM said he had it planned before hand, but we were sure he didn't. It seemed like he was fumbling through the books to find something to kill the wizard and decided on a rakshasa)

The DM had him go for the wizard when it was his turn. When he went to attack the wizard, he rolled a natural 1. (I believe he felt regret seeing that the monster would instant kill people and decided to fudge the roll). The DM rolled a d4 (this was used in case of fumbles) and it came up also as a 1. Thus the DM decided the rakshasa had tripped and fallen. I then used a bead to cast bless weapon on a crossbow bolt (we found it earlier in the dungeon and it casted the spell 1/day), and walked up to the rakshasa. I then coup de grace'd it for the kill when it was my next turn.

That of course, got us to level 3 (this DM once again didn't realize the maximum levels we could gain in a session was one), but the wizard player was really mad (and he was right to be). Looking back at it, this was probably his worse offender in terms of bosses and such. He did many more worse things with bosses in future sessions, but at the time everyone else rejoiced. So yes, our DM threw a CR 10 monster at us when our party of four was still level 1.

Greenish

2012-01-03, 01:11 AM

Given that your DM allowed you to actually beat the rakshasa (even helped you with it), I don't think yours is quite the shaggy dog story the quickling one is.

Snowbear22

2012-01-03, 01:15 AM

SowZ

2012-01-03, 02:17 AM

It's quite possibly true since amongst them, several rules were broken and the rakshasa was beaten. But nonetheless, I still believe that had to be our worst session. Of course, it isn't confirmed that he fudged the die roll as one the players remembers he rolled out in the open. I'm not sure, but I think it was behind the screen. Either way, it was an arbitrarily ridiculous monster to throw at us.

Also I believe the blessed weapon spell was actually bless (and that our player and DM got confused).

And of course, you shouldn't have been able to coup-de-grace a prone target unless the fuble was actually knocked out, (which would mean you go unconscious over 1% of the time you swing a sword so I doubt it.) But it looks as though rules were fudged all around, yeah. And it was the DMs own fault for forgetting your sun domain...

Fyermind

2012-01-03, 02:58 AM

At the risk of a lion totem barbarian 1 dip response, I get the feeling that a lot of the "My DM sucks" stories have quite a bit to do with "I refuse to accept that my DM is as much a player here as I am." or the opposite "My DM refuses to accept we are as much players as he is."

D&D is very much a cooperative game. HUGE problems arise when people forget that. I feel that as people get POed at their DM the first thing to do is to ask: does my DM want us to have fun too? If the answer is yes, I'd say play it cool, let him direct you a bit. Better yet, talk to your DM during character creation. Find out if he likes players with teleport/scrying. Some DMs go to a lot of work to prepare for those things (guilty) and feel like they wasted effort when characters don't utilize all available resources. Others don't know how to handle it and get flustered. Either way, no DM likes being caught off guard (well, few DMs do. I'll tell players "Improv. time! you asked for it. please excuse any irregularities I'm DMing off-cuff) so you are giving them the heads up they need.

Ultimately some DMs/players aren't that great. I feel I am a shoddy DM, and a decent player, but I tend to end up as the DM, so I don't have any great stories to contribute. (If anyone from my groups gets up here though they will have a field day)

JamesonCourage

2012-01-03, 12:40 PM

Anyone else ever read these stories and wonder what's going on with the players in them? I mean, yes, some GMs are bad or run terrible sessions, but when I read things like the OP (3rd level gestalt characters rolling a 38 Knowledge check?) or the post where the players refused to cooperate in the murder mystery ("no, we won't go outside and check out the scream, even though we're bored and adventurers; no, we won't participate in your investigate the murder, even though we're bored and adventurers, and this is the first session so something's gotta kick this off"), I just wonder what's going on.

Maybe it's just my play style. Getting a 38 on Hide at 3rd level gestalt without massive optimization I can see. Maybe I'm missing something on Knowledge checks (6 ranks, +2 from druid, +4 from Int = +12). I'm not well-versed in 3.X (stopped playing a couple years ago to play my RPG), so that might have something to do with it. I just read things from the player's point of view, and sometimes I wonder, "just how much did they add to this terrible session?"

I don't know. There are definitely terrible GMs in this thread. They shouldn't really be doing, "well, you beat me and that sucks, so I'm adding this to screw you up." Or any other number of things that they've been cited. I just think that a lot of players don't really realize just how little they're contributing to the session running smoothly in some of these stories.

Steward

2012-01-03, 01:39 PM

I think it's because the players and the DMs don't communicate effectively before and after sessions, and then try to resolve every dispute in the game. If you're a DM and, because of something the players did, you legitimately have no idea where to go next, rather than just throwing a Tarrasque at them and ending the campaign, just call a time-out and (possibly with the players' help) try to work something out to keep the game going.

And (this goes for both DMs and players) try to make sure that the characters and the game work together. If you're the DM, don't take a bunch of hack-and-slash oriented characters and make them solve some third-rate crime noir plot. And if you're a player, don't make a sullen isolationist who refuses to go anywhere or do anything no matter what promises, threats, rewards, etc. are involved. It might break verisimilitude a little bit but I don't think there's anything wrong with the DM saying, "Okay, I want to run a dungeon crawl" or the players saying, "We want to play CSI Greyhawk" before character creation, so no one gets surprised.

Zerter

2012-02-04, 05:53 AM

while i wont be telling the entire story (i already talked about it somewhere else on this page) ill give you a summary of the problems i had with a certain dm. its also worth noting that atm, that person has already caused at least 4 people to stop playing dnd with him, myself included. also note this person has read a lot of dnd books, and isnt new to the game.

1: 1st lvl npc monks that can somehow single handedly stop a stampeding horse without any rolls ( becouse they needed the horses to steal a wagon, my character released the horses and scared them with a thunderstone, causing them to gallop away, the monks, totally unprepared for this, just jumped in front of the horses and stopped the horses. no rolls, no superhuman strenght, nothing, it became a running gag with our new group, all monks are overpowered and can do anything)

2: as soon as one of the characters gained a small amount of damage reduction/silver, spontaniously EVERY FREAKING ENCOUNTER used silver. and not like, hey we are attacking the party with silver, no, ONLY the character with the damage reduction. even if they were a group of drow that were isolated for the past decades, had no way of knowing he had any kind of damage reduction, and never faced any foes with damage reduction/silver in their life

(oh yeah, and monsters suddenly had silver claws and stuff too)

3: every encounter, no exceptions, were at least 2-3 ecl above us. also worth noting is that the DM told us this was going to be a roleplaying and politically heavy campaign, and none of us were munchkins, we just play for the fun of it. so how a encounter usually went was that we would get into a fight we were horribly equipped to handle, the dm would damage the party with a LOT, and then start to play the monster stupider so we would JUST survive it. i told him multiple times that that was in no way fun, the fun of a encounter ( for me) is overcoming a challenge, not to be roflstomped by the dm just becouse he can and then be allowed to live. 3 sessions later, he still kept doing the same damn thing, so i just build a combat optimized character. he banned it after 1 session

4: there was this npc, initially our "questgiver" type of guy, and some of us got pretty sick of him, and my pc had orders to kill the guy, so i didnt like him in character either. now our party wasnt too good at political manouvering (we decided to go with the political heavy campaign becouse its something our dm really wanted to try and we figured it was worth a try) but my character tried a few things, and i set stuff up for about 4-5 sessions so i could make it appear that the questgiver npc was out to take over the city with a army of superpowered undead, therefor, making him a threath to both the rivaling factions, and his own superiors. it didnt even caused him to go into hiding. what should have been a scandal hindered him less then showing up late to a meeting would have done

now there have been some complaints about him as a player too, wich caused 2 of the other people to never play with him again. mostly just killing every pc who doesnt play the way he thinks a character "should" be played. meaning: optimized.
Wow, is this still going on. I only caused two to three people to leave the party : D, two of which were outsiders that brought issues with them from the beginning (the party that exists since 2010 and still plays every week for 11 hours with all of its original members but one) and that was because I confronted issues that needed to be adressed.

The Monk thing was not handled well by me, the silver thing is a nonsense issue (some of the drow carried some silver arrows and the monster did not carry silver at all, he had plenty of time to buff and enable himself to go through the DR/magic or silver).

The ECL was high because it was a urban setting in which players could rest up inbetween encounters, that's textbook DMing. I gave you the trust and freedom to build a new character despite it being from books that were originally disallowed (psionics), instead you deliberatly tried to sabotage the game using the character misinterpreting the rules (on purpose?), causing me to end the psionics experiment.

I was actually told last week that was one of the best NPC in the game ever, but hey, people can disagree. I did not think the plan was as good as you did, and if you had bothered to do any kind of research, talked to any NPC with knowhow about politics, you would have been informed about it as well. Your PC was getting rewarded from all sides for all kind of things (more than any other player), so I don't know why you got so bent out of shape about this one plan not paying out.

Every player whose character I ever killed with another character (happened four times) is still in the party, and a optimizer, me? The only character I had played in the group up to that point was deliberatly useless in combat because I thought it suited him. The campaign that's being talked about in this post was voted the #1 campaign we played in our first year round-up (Triforce's campaign ended #5 out of seven), sure you can highlight the negatives (and there were plenty of those), but a lot of positives happened as well.

Orannis

2012-02-04, 12:00 PM

One of the worst experiences I ever had from a DM was during the first campaign I even played. We were all level 5 (1 Rogue, 1 Druid, 1 Ranger...thing, and my Wizard) and needed to get something from a certain person. As a team we went up and knocked on the door and the guy answered, told us to go stuff it, and slammed the door in our face. My teams rogue (and at this point I should note that she was female) decided to go meet up with some of her contacts to see about getting a break in going. The other two characters sorta did there own things. I, on the other hand went and researched paralyzing touch and prepared to get the job done myself (I was a LE character among CNs and was young enough to think that that was how the "Evulz" behaved)
While I was dong that the rogue made a deal to serve as a sex slave for information. Of course none of the rest of the group knew about it least of all me since I was still making spellcraft checks and imagining my master plan. The other two scry her and set off in hot pursuit of her. I blithely wandered back to the guy who we had initially visited planning on paralyzing him, running in grabbing whatever it was, and going invisible. Problem solved. This is where the DMing comes in. I knocked on the door, guy answers from the window, I ask him to let me in (after all he had at least opened the door before) and he refused. I offered him every scrap of money I had just to see the bloody thing, still no. I got angry and decided to break in, after all I had knock, what was he going to do about it? Sometime in game between my group going there and my return he had apparently gone out and purchased a FREAKING PRISMATIC SPRAY TRAP. One minute I am about to just waltz right in, next minute blind and at 2 hit points. I cast invisibility and hug a wall until my vision comes back.The next day I get arrested and set to be tried THAT DAY for breaking and entering. I asked how they had caught me "Oh we tracked the magic to you, its how we prevent crimes."
While all that had been going on the rest of my group had shown up at the place where the rogue was being held and broken in, attacked the man who was holding her (not against her will) and brutally murdered him, grabbed all his magic Items and made their escape when the police arrived WHO ACTUALLY SAW THEM RUNNING AWAY. They got to watch me receive a prison sentence for breaking and entering in a position of honor in the top gallery of the court room. What happened to using magic to solve crimes? Why didn't the 8th level rogue with amazing magic items have a single trap but a level 1 commoner had a massively powerful one? After that the game sorta fizzled.

HerrTerror

2015-02-04, 09:01 PM

Sorry to revive a thread this old, but this is the best result that pops up when searching this topic on Google.

I don't have any examples as bad as most of these; that said, I've never had a good experience with a DM. I recently got into tabletop roleplaying for the first time in 20 years, thanks to the Nerd Poker podcast. Boy, does that podcast set the bar too high. I started playing at local venues I'd found through Meetup.com. While everyone is quick to spout the basic principles (let the players tell the story, encourage them, etc. etc.), this advice misses some of the more acute things I've seen at every game I've played thus far:

• Sarcasm and Incredulity: I get it, geeks cope with inferiority by talking this way. Talking this way as a DM also alienates your players and betrays that fact that you're railroading them along your cliche, crappy story. I haven't played a game yet where the DM hasn't reacted to something a player tries to do with sarcasm. "Well, since you've teleported us to a strange land where, conveniently, none of us understand the local language and we're all out of our element, I'm going to fish to ensure we have food," "Uh, OK, well you, uh, have some fish I guess. Hurr." Don't be annoyed that we're trying things. We aren't sitting behind the screen, moron.

• Video Gaming: If it's all about numbers, go play a Bethesda RPG and watch two people with no armor slice at each others' open torsos with no consequence. If I have the actor trait and telepathy and I'm trying to deceive an unaware goblin into distrusting his own men, don't interrupt me two words into roleplaying what I'm telepathically communicating with annoyance and say, "Just roll your deception..." so you can get to the next turn. If my roll to hit with an aimed spell misses a troll ten feet from me, don't just say, "You miss. Next," with annoyance.

• Looting the Bodies: The handbook for Blade of the Iron Throne makes a good point: Don't loot the bodies. Or rather, it's kind of absurd as an accepted practice. Sure, there are character types that might always do this, but it's so commonplace (thanks to video games) that in every game I've played, there's a mad rush to feel up the corpses - from thieves and paladins alike. And more grating is that the DMs who seem so annoyed by attempts to roleplay are fully behind this; they're at the ready with loot details, because this fits into their crappy concept of adventure.