3.5 Domain Wizard variant

[Dude_Here]

I'm trying to figure a way of implementing this variant into my campaign because as it's written in UA it doesn't really make sense to me. Any bonus
you get from taking a variant class option is always countered with having to
give something up for balance; but this option places none of those restrictions on the class in question. After all getting, 10 bonus spells all with +1 DC to them is a pretty potent power increase; especially when you get into the level 6 and up spells. The only solutions I came up with is having the wizard give up his bonus feats or his familiar and scribe scroll feat. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Jheska]

You give up the ability to specialise, and thus sacrifice a lot of power for flavour.

At least you get to keep your familiar.

[motoko's ghost]

Also you HAVE to use that one spell for your domain slot, instead of picking from the available spells for that level, so theres less versatility in your slots (in your EXTRA SLOTS, not overall though)

[gkathellar]

Eh, non-Divination specialization is overrated (barring specific builds).

Domain Wizard is fabulous, because it gives you some extra slots and spells (and in some cases, a bigger spell list) and doesn't cost you your wizardly versatility. Sure, your extra spell slots aren't as versatile as they would be for a specialized caster ... but the rest of your slots are much more versatile — and most importantly, you don't really give up anything to go Domain Wizard.

[motoko's ghost]

Eh, non-Divination specialization is overrated (barring specific builds).

Domain Wizard is fabulous, because it gives you some extra slots and spells (and in some cases, a bigger spell list) and doesn't cost you your wizardly versatility. Sure, your extra spell slots aren't as versatile as they would be for a specialized caster ... but the rest of your slots are much more versatile — and most importantly, you don't really give up anything to go Domain Wizard.

It does work out in the end!
I hereby declare everybody happy forever.:smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

There are prestige classes which involve (more) specialization, and Domain Wizards aren't allowed in because of that rule. Incantatrix, for instance (one of the more brokenly powerful PrCs for Wizards).

[gkathellar]

As I said, barring specific builds. Specialists can be quite good, and receive a lot of support — but they are invariably less versatile than Domain Wizards.

[Incanur]

There are prestige classes which involve (more) specialization, and Domain Wizards aren't allowed in because of that rule. Incantatrix, for instance (one of the more brokenly powerful PrCs for Wizards).

I don't see anything to prevent a domain wizard from becoming an incantatrix. Domain wizards can't be specialists too, but they're not prohibited from ever prohibiting a school of magic.

[dextercorvia]

I don't see anything to prevent a domain wizard from becoming an incantatrix. Domain wizards can't be specialists too, but they're not prohibited from ever prohibiting a school of magic.

I beleive Incantatrix calls its prohibition a form of specializing.

[candycorn]

As I said, barring specific builds. Specialists can be quite good, and receive a lot of support — but they are invariably less versatile than Domain Wizards.

I would wager that a focused specialist conjurer would be a versatility match, even with three banned schools.

Look at it this way:

At level 10, assuming a 26 Intelligence:
{table]Spell Level|Domain|Focused Specialist
0|4+1|3+3
1|6+1|5+3
2|6+1|5+3
3|5+1|4+3
4|5+1|4+3
5|3+1|2+3[/table]
The focused specialist has 1 more spell at each level, and, with proper school selection, that can be surprisingly versatile.

There's also the option to go Shadowcraft Mage, which gives Focused Specialist (Illusion) a far superior option, for versatility.

[Lateral]

You give up the ability to specialise, and thus sacrifice a lot of power for flavour.

At least you get to keep your familiar.

I see what you did there. :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

By gkathellar's implied definition, he is correct, but a generalist is almost exactly as versatile as a domain wizard by that definition -- he sacrifices at most one or two 'unique' spells that a domain wizard might get, but retains his ability to go incantatrix.

The problem with this definition, is that it is entirely theoretical versatility. Treantmonk handles this really well in one of his guides, but essentially, the ability to cast more of your highest spells per level is inherently more practically versatile so long as you don't nerf your school selection.

The ability to cast 5 different spells (3 from your chosen school) of your highest level is more versatile than the ability to cast 3 different spells from any school and 1 additional predetermined spell.

Perhaps Power is the better word than Versatility here, but the FS will have 5 encounter ending spells, while the DW will have 3 (4 if the domain spell for that level is good enough, but that is not really common).

[Zaydos]

I would go Transmuter in a heartbeat over Domain Wizard. Mostly because last time I build a Focused Conjurer that wasn't a summoner most of his non-Conjuration spells were Transmutation and I wanted more of those. There is always at least 1 transmutation spell of each level I want to prepare and for some schools there are no spells or only 1 or 2 spells throughout their entire school. Focused Transmuter is even more fun.

[Dude_Here]

I don't see giving up the ability to specialize a set back if
your goal in the first place is to be a generalist.

Specialists have to give up 2 schools of magic(divination is 2 schools as well in my campaign) in order to qualify as a specialist; but the domain wizard is asked to give up nothing for the bonuses they recieve. It just seems out of balance to me.

[Incanur]

I beleive Incantatrix calls its prohibition a form of specializing.

No, it doesn't. Even if it did, the domain variant only comes in place of normal wizard specialization. That's all. Nothing RAW prevent domain wizards from going incantatrix. Yes, this variant is a great option. The focused specialist conjurer still rocks at low levels, but the domain wizard has incredible mid- and late-game potential.

[FMArthur]

It is unbalanced. Specialization is already a trade. Some other ability that removes your ability to make that trade should not be treating it as its own drawback, because as you say, nothing at all is lost in this other trade if you never intended to make the first one.

[Big Fau]

Eh, non-Divination specialization is overrated (barring specific builds).

I'd like to see your reasoning on this, seeing as it differs so drastically from an opinion I agree with. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864630/Focused_Specialist_is_better_than_you_think)

[dextercorvia]

No, it doesn't. Even if it did, the domain variant only comes in place of normal wizard specialization. That's all. Nothing RAW prevent domain wizards from going incantatrix. Yes, this variant is a great option. The focused specialist conjurer still rocks at low levels, but the domain wizard has incredible mid- and late-game potential.

At least the last sentence of the ability does refer to it as specialization. The domain variant only says that you may not be a specialized wizard, it doesn't say normal.

[Lateral]

I'd like to see your reasoning on this, seeing as it differs so drastically from an opinion I agree with. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864630/Focused_Specialist_is_better_than_you_think)

I'm pretty sure he means non-divination regular specialization, not including FS.

And that's completely accurate, although focused specialist can be as good or better.

[gkathellar]

I'd like to see your reasoning on this, seeing as it differs so drastically from an opinion I agree with. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864630/Focused_Specialist_is_better_than_you_think)

Focused Specialist is very strong, I agree. But dropping three schools is painful, because even Evocation and Enchantment have good spells, and the utility of limiting just about half your spells/day to one school depends largely on playstyle. Builds that have smaller number of extremely powerful tactics will profit more from Focused Specialist, while wizards who prefer a wider variety of tricks will profit more from Domain Wizard.

A Killer Gnome build done with a Focused Illusionist is a general exception to this rule, since it can theoretically field two of its banned domains without preparation. Still, even in this especially strong case, Focused Specialist is not the be-all-end-all of wizard casting. It's a powerful option, but it's not the only powerful option. Elven Generalist and Domain Wizard both have their own distinct advantages.

Also, the guy you link to recommends banning Abjuration, so I have reservations about his opinion.

[Manateee]

Though Domain Wizard isn't very well balanced with a core generalist and may be a smidge more powerful than core specialists, it is on par with Elven Generalist and Focused Specialist variants.

The domain spells just generally aren't the things you'd want to use bonus spell slots for.

[Lateral]

Focused Specialist is very strong, I agree. But dropping three schools is painful, because even Evocation and Enchantment have good spells, and the utility of limiting just about half your spells/day to one school depends largely on playstyle. Builds that have smaller number of extremely powerful tactics will profit more from Focused Specialist, while wizards who prefer a wider variety of tricks will profit more from Domain Wizard.

I think you're underestimating the versatility in Transmutation or Conjuration alone, and the power of the domains you get. There's easily 3 spells of every level that I'd want to have every day in those two schools, and the domain spells are about half crap.


Also, the guy you link to recommends banning Abjuration, so I have reservations about his opinion.

:smallconfused:

Dude, there are seven schools you can ban. Of these, the ones you aren't banning... pretty much ever are Transmutation and Conjuration, and the ones you usually ban are Evocation and Enchantment. That leaves one banned school left and three schools to choose from- Necromancy, Abjuration, and Illusion. Of those three, Illusion is easily the best, so it's down to Necromancy and Abjuration. He recommends neither over the other.

Abjuration's not that great, anyway. Its best features are that it gets Dispel Magic, the Protection spells, and Mind Blank, but Mind Blank isn't so important that you can't wait a couple levels and save for a Third Eye Conceal. Two spells is not that hard to throw away. (I still usually throw away Necromancy, but Abjuration really isn't all that necessary.)

[Big Fau]

Focused Specialist is very strong, I agree. But dropping three schools is painful, because even Evocation and Enchantment have good spells, and the utility of limiting just about half your spells/day to one school depends largely on playstyle.

The utility of Evocation is in Wall spells, Forcecage, and Contingency, the latter of which is pretty much the school's only unique spell. Enchantment's utility, however, is largely negated by a rule in the Spellcasting section of the PHB; namely that all Enchantment spells, without exception, are Mind-Affecting.

The weaknesses of the latter make it an easy scapegoat for specialists, and Evocation's abilities are largely replicable by Conjuration and Transmutation, sometimes even Abjuration.


Builds that have smaller number of extremely powerful tactics will profit more from Focused Specialist, while wizards who prefer a wider variety of tricks will profit more from Domain Wizard.

And you can sacrifice some of those numbers for endurance, which is one of the few weaknesses a Wizard has.


Also, the guy you link to recommends banning Abjuration, so I have reservations about his opinion.

Abjuration is best left in the hands of a dedicated buffer. A Wizard planning on specializing in Transmutation would do well with Abjuration, but a Battlefield Controlling Conjuration specialist can actually leave it to another character (provided one is available).

Why should I be the one dispelling during combat when the party's Cleric has access to several ACFs that bolster his ability to do so, and can pump his CL significantly higher than I can? Abjuration, in such a situation, provides me with only a handful of buffs that I can easily replace using Illusion, Transmutation, and a liberal dose of tactical Battlefield Control spells.

Banning Abjuration is foolhardy when the party does not have a Cleric or other spellcaster capable of picking up my slack, in which case I would reconsider my build to cover a base that the party lacks.

Finally, please note that the above link is also authored by the creator of the God Wizard handbook, and is one of the foremost authorities on Wizards in general. His opinion on the matter is highly respected, and I am inclined to agree that Abjuration is optional if the party's composition allows it.

[Hirax]

At least the last sentence of the ability does refer to it as specialization. The domain variant only says that you may not be a specialized wizard, it doesn't say normal.

Specialist wizard is a defined game term with prolific use. Examples include master specialist entry requirements, domain wizards, the spell reprieve, item reprieve, and arcane transfiguration line of feats, and the spellcraft skill in the PHB. The game uses the term specialist wizard too much to ascribe its repeated occurrence to coincidence. The contexts in which the term sees use necessitate that it be defined somewhere, so we know who may become a master specialist, for instance. The PHB lists the term specialist wizards in its index on page 317, referring the reader back to page 57. An incantatrix does not become what is described there. They would not qualify to become a master specialist, receive bonuses or penalties on certain spellcraft checks, be able to take the spell reprieve line of feats, or anything else hinging on being a specialist wizard. Nothing indicates that focused studies is in any way connected to being a specialist wizard. The last 2 sentences of focused studies are describing what would happen if a specialist wizard took the class, and have nothing whatsoever to do with a generalist or domain wizard taking the class.

This probably qualifies as fair use, here's all the relevant text in one place for everybody's convenience:

These are the only things that could be construed as making the incantatrix a specialist:
"Special: The candidate cannot have abjuration as a prohibited school." (from entry requirements)

"Focused Studies (Ex): At 1st level, the incantatrix gives up a school of magic so as to focus more on the remaining schools. She must choose a school of magic other than abjuration or divination as a prohibited school. This prohibited school is in addition to any others already chosen due to school specialization. Thus, a specialized wizard taking this prestige class has three prohibited schools instead of two."

Nothing else in the fluff or crunch could be construed as referencing specialization, I believe.

Domain wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard)

"A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells with increased power."

[gorfnab]

Domain Wizard + Elven Generalist Wizard (RotW) + Collegiate Wizard (CArc) feat = Lots of spells known without having to spend gp to research/copy them. Add in Eidetic Spellcaster ACF (Drg#357) so that you don't even need the spellbook.

[Incanur]

Though Domain Wizard isn't very well balanced with a core generalist and may be a smidge more powerful than core specialists, it is on par with Elven Generalist and Focused Specialist variants.

The domain spells just generally aren't the things you'd want to use bonus spell slots for.

While I agree it's roughly balanced with the focused specialist conjurer or transmuter, various domains contain solid spells. As Dictum Mortuum (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/09/wizards-handbook-part-one-attributes.html) writes, the best ones are conjuration, necromancy, storm, and transmutation. You can hardly beat the focus specialist conjurer during the lower levels (1-5), but the domain wizard seems better if level 10 if not earlier because of the access to all schools.

[dextercorvia]

Nothing else in the fluff or crunch could be construed as referencing specialization, I believe.


"A bard or sorcerer who becomes an incantatrix must still choose a prohibited school to receive the benefit of specialization"

This make is clear to me that it is a form of specialization that is available to more than just Wizards. I will say that I can see how it could be read otherwise. Domain Wizard might be specific enough in referencing Specialist Wizard to get around it.

[Hirax]

I tore my hair out trying to find that quote in PGTF until I thought to look in MoF. :smallbiggrin: The fact that it's from the old version in MoF makes it not worth consideration imo, not just because it was superseded, but it feels like they consciously moved away from making it specialization with the revision. Otherwise you'd have bards becoming red wizards and master specialists, which would be mega weird.

[dextercorvia]

I tore my hair out trying to find that quite in PGTF until I thought to look in MoF. :smallbiggrin: The fact that it's from the old version in MoF makes it not worth consideration imo, not just because it was superseded, but it feels like they consciously moved away from making it specialization with the revision. Otherwise you'd have bards becoming red wizards and master specialists, which would be mega weird.

I totally forgot there were two versions, and just searched for the easy one. Find me a shepherd, I'm feeling sheepish.:smallredface:

Edit: I don't have any of the setting books, and I'm constantly forgetting that some of them are 3.0 vs 3.5.

[Dude_Here]

Domain Wizard + Elven Generalist Wizard (RotW) + Collegiate Wizard (CArc) feat = Lots of spells known without having to spend gp to research/copy them. Add in Eidetic Spellcaster ACF (Drg#357) so that you don't even need the spellbook.

This is the issue my DM is trying to work with me on. I'm playing a wood elf wizard with the elven generalist and domain wizard options. He can't find any rule that would not permit me from taking both; but he thinks it's a little cheesy.

[gkathellar]

This is the issue my DM is trying to work with me on. I'm playing a wood elf wizard with the elven generalist and domain wizard options. He can't find any rule that would not permit me from taking both; but he thinks it's a little cheesy.

I honestly wouldn't worry about it. You're a wizard. Past level 5-7, you can cheese exactly as much or as little as you want to, and so as long as you keep things tuned to the power level of the campaign, a few added tricks shouldn't be a huge problem.

Out of curiosity, how do people read the bonus spells Domain Wizard grants? Specifically, do spells not normally accessible for the wizard only get added to your spell list at levels you gain access to them, or are they always on your list and when you gain them as bonuses they're just getting added to your spellbook?

[Rumo]

I only learned today about the Domain Wizard option. Is it true that the Domain Wizard is basically a Generalist + 1 predefined spell slot per level? And if so, why on earth would anyone want to play a Generalist, if Domain Wizard is available? If there would at least be the loss of a feat/familiar involved, the concept would make a minimum of sense to me.