Classes not ranked on Tier list?

[Rossebay]

Mainly, PHB2 classes aren't listed on the tier list. So, where would you put Beguiler, Knight, Duskblade, and Dragon Shaman?

In addition, whereabouts would you put a SotAO Mystic Ranger? SotAO Paladin with spells cast as free actions (due to that feat in CChamp, I think)?

Finally, if I wanted to be in a game where we were limited on tier options, say... Tiers 3 and 4, and someone wants to be a 'master of the arcane' type and warlock doesn't appeal to them, what would you suggest?

[Flickerdart]

Beguiler is T3, Duskblade is T4, Knight is T5, Dragon Shaman is T4, SotAO Paladin is T3, SotAO Mystic Ranger is T1 until his spell progression stops and T3 thereafter.

[Big Fau]

Beguiler is T3, Duskblade is T4, Knight is T4, Dragon Shaman is T4, SotAO Paladin is T3, SotAO Mystic Ranger is T1 until his spell progression stops and T3 thereafter.

Fixed that for you.

[sreservoir]

SotAO mystic ranger is basically lightning warrior lite for the first ten levels, at which point it suddenly "wait, what happened to my progression."

[Rossebay]

SotAO mystic ranger is basically lightning warrior lite for the first ten levels, at which point it suddenly "wait, what happened to my progression."

Lightning Warrior?

Anyway, that's pretty interesting. I never considered SotAOMR to be a T1 class, but I guess it goes along quite well with the Wizard.
I guess it just gives you reason to jump into a PrC, yeah?

[sreservoir]

Lightning Warrior?

Anyway, that's pretty interesting. I never considered SotAOMR to be a T1 class, but I guess it goes along quite well with the Wizard.
I guess it just gives you reason to jump into a PrC, yeah?

it doesn't. the spell progression is per two levels up to 5th, and then ... it just stops for no apparent reason.

[JadePhoenix]

SotAO mystic ranger is basically lightning warrior lite for the first ten levels, at which point it suddenly "wait, what happened to my progression."

But it doesn't have a familiar!!

[Rossebay]

it doesn't. the spell progression is per two levels up to 5th, and then ... it just stops for no apparent reason.

That's what I mean. Jump into an unrelated PrC instead of advancing your non-existing caster progression.


Also, lulz. Just looked up Lightning Warrior. I suppose it's for the better that the progression cut out, else, we WOULD be dealing with a Lightning Warrior.

Though they made a fair point about wizards there. No specialization and no familiar in exchange for being a great fighter.
Sure, at levels 1-10 it destroys a wizard's usefulness, but at any higher levels you really stop noticing anything.
Especially once Genesis comes into the picture and such.

[Flickerdart]

Fixed that for you.
Would be T4 if it was good at its role, but it's really not. Compare to Barbarian, a T4 that actually does a job.

[NNescio]

Mainly, PHB2 classes aren't listed on the tier list. So, where would you put Beguiler, Knight, Duskblade, and Dragon Shaman?

The Tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) puts Beguilers and Duskblades on Tier 3 and Knights on Tier 5. Beguilers are considered one of the cream of the crop among Tier 3, while Duskblades are a bit on the low end.

Dragon Shamans are not on the Tier list, but are often considered Tier 4 (which is also my opinion). Some consider them Tier 3. In any case, they are generally regarded as being extremely boring to play.

(Makes for a nice NPC healbot though.)



In addition, whereabouts would you put a SotAO Mystic Ranger?
Tier 3. Still, it's functionally equivalent to a Tier 1 (okay, technically it's better) before Level 10.


SotAO Paladin with spells cast as free actions (due to that feat in CChamp, I think)?
Tier 3 due to action economy. Battle Blessing lets you cut down standard action spells to swifts, and fulls to standards. It does not let you cast spells as free actions.

This is assuming Battle Blessing works. It's debatable whether spells cast through SotAO still qualify as Paladin spells, due to the wording of the feat.



Finally, if I wanted to be in a game where we were limited on tier options, say... Tiers 3 and 4, and someone wants to be a 'master of the arcane' type and warlock doesn't appeal to them, what would you suggest?

Beguilers and Bards if you want subtlety. Factotums if you want a (damned good) charlatan. Dread Necromancers work if you're a fan of Necromancy. Duskblades if you are satisfied with a middling level gish-in-the-can. Spellthieves are their more roguish brothers, and Hexblades are the inferior versions. Warmages would work if you like blasting. Binders can also work in a pinch, 'though you'll need some minor refluffing.

Edit: Ninja'ed.

[sreservoir]

But it doesn't have a familiar!!

which makes the analogy just that much better!


That's what I mean. Jump into an unrelated PrC instead of advancing your non-existing caster progression.

kills your CL, though.

[Rossebay]

kills your CL, though.

Practiced Spellcaster gives some saving grace there, making Ranger Advancement useless for at least those 4 levels.

[FMArthur]

You can use Abjurant Champion to keep your CL = BAB.


Anyway, Jaronk's list misses out on some psionic classes because he's not really familiar with psionics in general. He also put the Erudite in Tier 2 pretty much on the basis that there is a significantly more powerful version of the class, and I guess they had to be separated for some reason? They really didn't for the purposes of the list. All erudites are Tier 1 by the guidelines and precedent in place.

Lurk and Divine Mind are probably Tier 5. They are both pretty weak as specialists and they can't really do enough with their more versatile feature, their powers.

Ardents are really close to being Tier 2, but generally speaking they don't have quite enough of the crazy casting oomph that puts psions up there. Tier 3 IMO. Wilders are similarly gimped compared to their big brother, but still have the freedom in their power selection to do things like a psion could, so they're Tier 2.

[JadePhoenix]

Practiced Spellcaster gives some saving grace there, making Ranger Advancement useless for at least those 4 levels.

Ranger CL (even for a Mystic Ranger) is equal to half your class level

[Tvtyrant]

Practiced Spellcaster + Master Spellthief. It is the same answer to all CL problems :P (Also, I am not sure, but I think it is possible to get Practiced Spellcaster on your Spellthief level and use that to push your CL over your HD using Master Spellthief).

[lord pringle]

What tier are the classes from dragon compendium?

[Keegan__D]

Are Battle or Stalwart Sorc tier 3?

[Manateee]

Are Battle or Stalwart Sorc tier 3?
They don't lose the Sorcerer's brute force or means of utterly breaking the game in several ways. It's just a smaller value of "several."

[Prime32]

The Tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)Why does everyone keep linking to the first thread? :smallconfused:

[TroubleBrewing]

Ardents are really close to being Tier 2, but generally speaking they don't have quite enough of the crazy casting oomph that puts psions up there. Tier 3 IMO. Wilders are similarly gimped compared to their big brother, but still have the freedom in their power selection to do things like a psion could, so they're Tier 2.

From what I've heard and seen, I'd also put Ardent solidly in Tier 3, unless you've got access to that Mind's Eye supplement that makes them pretty much low Tier 1.

Wilders, on the other hand... I wouldn't call them anything close to T2. I put them in T4 with the Warmage, because they've got a similarly limited power selection.

[FMArthur]

I hope you're not talking about the ardent "ACF" that is basically 'ask your DM for extra stuff and see if they will give it to you'. I don't even know why they bothered to write that down at all...

And wilders still get the whole psion/wilder list to pick from, which has lots of gems in it. That's not much like a warmage, it's just Sorcerer Syndrome exacerbated. Wilders could wind up being tier 3, maybe. But no lower.

[TroubleBrewing]

I hope you're not talking about the ardent "ACF" that is basically 'ask your DM for extra stuff and see if they will give it to you'. I don't even know why they bothered to write that down at all...

Yeah, that's the one. I didn't say I liked it, just that it... is.


And wilders still get the whole psion/wilder list to pick from, which has lots of gems in it.

No argument here. Lots of gems. And at 20th level, a whopping 11 of them are yours. Two 1st level, two 9th level, and one of each level in between.

EDIT: I'm not saying that having access to 9th level powers should be written off as no big deal. I'm saying that 11 powers known does not a T2 class make. That sort of narrow functionality is way too easy to fudge up.

[Gavinfoxx]

There is an expanded tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0) you know...

[AmberVael]

And wilders still get the whole psion/wilder list to pick from, which has lots of gems in it. That's not much like a warmage, it's just Sorcerer Syndrome exacerbated. Wilders could wind up being tier 3, maybe. But no lower.

Yeah, I agree- it's not like warmage, it's like warlock. 11 powers, 12 invocations? Seeing a similarity here... though Warlock has worse abilities to choose from, so even though they get at will to Wilder's power point limitation...

I've never understood why anyone thought Wilder was tier 2 either though. Having not played the class much myself, I'm not utterly convinced I'm right, but theoretically, it really doesn't seem like Tier 2 material. Maybe 3. I can see why someone would balk at it being 4, because I mean- 9th level powers, but at the same time, it doesn't quite seem to fit 3 either, for some reason. I like to think of Wilder being off in a little class on its own, capable of doing a few cool things of notably high power, but just not enough to really compare to the Tier 2 and 1 classes.

[TroubleBrewing]

Warmage gets 9th level spells. Getting 9's is not in and of itself a justification for T2.

Also, I've always been an opponent of Warlocks in Tier 3. I'd agree with putting Wilders on par with them. They both seem like high Tier 4 to me.

[NineThePuma]

Isn't the wilder a definition Tier 2? It's the Sorcerer's situation, but worse. "I can break the game" is the definition of Tier 2. "I can break the game and then break it again tomorrow in a different way" is the definition of tier 1.

And there's some Psion tricks that the wilder gets to break the game with.

[Kantolin]

The Wilder is indeed easier to screw up than most classes, but the tiers measure potential, not ease of screwing up.

The Wilder gets an array of exceptionally potent abilities, and can easily get a couple more if you'd like to via expanded knowledge. You indeed have to be careful with them, or make one of them psychic reformation and then you can fix yourself later on if you'd like.

None of this is particular optimization either (as with optimization you can fix things, but the tiers presume neutral optimization).

I mean... yes, a wilder is limited, but they're limited to game breaking power.

[AmberVael]

Warmage gets 9th level spells. Getting 9's is not in and of itself a justification for T2.

Also, I've always been an opponent of Warlocks in Tier 3. I'd agree with putting Wilders on par with them. They both seem like high Tier 4 to me.
Okay, fine. They can get GOOD 9th level powers. Or, well, just good powers in general.

Also, I haven't heard many people say Warlock should be tier 3. I mean, I think they should be, but in the sense that they should be improved to be tier 3. They need more invocations.


Isn't the wilder a definition Tier 2? It's the Sorcerer's situation, but worse. "I can break the game" is the definition of Tier 2. "I can break the game and then break it again tomorrow in a different way" is the definition of tier 1.

And there's some Psion tricks that the wilder gets to break the game with.

Er, no. Sorcerer and Favored Soul are definition Tier 2. They see "aha, I see a way I can use my limited list to my advantage in this area." The Wilder says "aha, I see a way I can use my one relevant power in a way that may be useful," or more probably "AHAHAHA I MAKE EVERYTHING BURN BECAUSE THAT'S ALL I CAN DO."

By the time you have to start counting the Wilder powers on two hands instead of one, Sorcerer has picked up 15 spells (not including lousy cantrips). It's just really, really not enough.

[Metahuman1]

Beguiler: Tier 3. Solid skill options, couple of utility spells, several nice things for social interaction, relatively low MAD if you build it right, and lot's of neat tricks for battle field control.

Duskblade: Tier 3. Solid Damage output, Access to Knowledge and Movement skills on an Int Heavy class. Couple of small tricks on it's spell list.

Knight: Tier 4. Can be made a half behind Mounted combatant if you REALLY want to. Good at tanking due to AC boosts, d12 hit die, a class entry emphesis on Boosting Con, and the ability to make the monsters leave the rest of the party alone and/or attack you in there place. Pretty much not good at anything else but those things it can due.

Dragon Shaman: Tier 5. 5th Wheel that can't really pull any genuinely interesting or useful effects except it's Breath Weapon with Metabreath feats, and there are better ways to do those that don't require levels in this class. Further, Even that and there aura's aren't terribly good at there intended jobs to begin with.

It had great fluff and that was it.

[sreservoir]

wilder being limited on powers matters a lot less in practice, because a) you'll be choosing generally applicable powers anyway, b) psyref.

that said, wilder can pretty much pull off all of the psion's stupid tricks, including: recharge, save game trick, casual disconcern for the action economy. they just need to wait some one to five levels and psyref in some EKs. that just means they can't pull off many of them at the same time.

[TroubleBrewing]

Okay, fine. They can get GOOD 9th level powers. Or, well, just good powers in general.

Also, I haven't heard many people say Warlock should be tier 3. I mean, I think they should be, but in the sense that they should be improved to be tier 3. They need more invocations.

There's a surprisingly large number of people who think the Warlock, as printed, is T3. I personally disagree.

Like I said, 9th level stuff is nothing to turn your nose up at, but I think that what you can do with 11 powers is too limited to be considered T2.

[Eurus]

Er, no. Sorcerer and Favored Soul are definition Tier 2. They see "aha, I see a way I can use my limited list to my advantage in this area." The Wilder says "aha, I see a way I can use my one relevant power in a way that may be useful," or more probably "AHAHAHA I MAKE EVERYTHING BURN BECAUSE THAT'S ALL I CAN DO."

By the time you have to start counting the Wilder powers on two hands instead of one, Sorcerer has picked up 15 spells (not including lousy cantrips). It's just really, really not enough.

I'm not sure I agree, many of a Wilder's low-level powers remain relevant all game. Vigor, Ego Whip, Energy Stun... and they may not have superb utility, but they can certainly dabble in psychoportation/clairsentience/telepathy after the obligatory two or three blasting powers. Especially with an Expanded Knowledge or two.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Wilders would be Tier 2 if they had access to Psion discipline powers. As written, they're fours; they have access to neither sufficient numbers of powers nor access to the good ones. Balance issues aside, they're just incredibly poorly designed; reduce their powers and PP progression, and they'd be a good base for an NPC psionic class, and that's about it.

Divine Mind and Lurk are fives because they're not good at anything. One's the psionic equivalent of a Paladin-- except with a medium BAB and none of the offensive punch-- and the other is the poor man's version of the Psychic Rogue.

[Eurus]

Wilders would be Tier 2 if they had access to Psion discipline powers. As written, they're fours; they have access to neither sufficient numbers of powers nor access to the good ones. Balance issues aside, they're just incredibly poorly designed; reduce their powers and PP progression, and they'd be a good base for an NPC psionic class, and that's about it.

Divine Mind and Lurk are fives because they're not good at anything. One's the psionic equivalent of a Paladin-- except with a medium BAB and none of the offensive punch-- and the other is the poor man's version of the Psychic Rogue.

They do have access to discipline powers with Expanded Knowledge, actually. They're feat-starved, but not not as power-starved as they seem.

[Flickerdart]

And Educated Wilder reduces the feat tax on Wilders significantly, too. One of the game's best ACFs in general, and gives them the love they so desperately need.

[Psyren]

I hope you're not talking about the ardent "ACF" that is basically 'ask your DM for extra stuff and see if they will give it to you'. I don't even know why they bothered to write that down at all...

Because if they didn't, too many DMs would disallow or even not consider it.

Think about it, we could (and many of us do) say "players should ask DMs to give extra stuff to their warmages!" too. Yet, because there's no WotC source to point at and say "even the designers think they should get more," it doesn't come up as often.


And wilders still get the whole psion/wilder list to pick from, which has lots of gems in it. That's not much like a warmage, it's just Sorcerer Syndrome exacerbated. Wilders could wind up being tier 3, maybe. But no lower.

Agreed, not even Mantled Wilder falls below T3.

[Grendus]

I dunno. If we include Expanded Knowledge for the Wilder definition, we have to include Extra Spell for Warmage (in both cases the feat appears in the same book as the class). Picking the right spells, Warmage hits T3 pretty easily (the Polymorph line is always good, maybe grab a conjuration spell for CC and an illusion or enchantment spell for a will save or die), but it's not normally considered for tier determination.

Without Expanded Knowledge, both Ardent and Wilder are high T3, maybe low T2 with moderate optimization. With it, both are solidly T2. They have a good chassis, but they lack some of the more impressive powers of their Psion brethren.

[FMArthur]

I dunno. If we include Expanded Knowledge for the Wilder definition, we have to include Extra Spell for Warmage (in both cases the feat appears in the same book as the class). Picking the right spells, Warmage hits T3 pretty easily (the Polymorph line is always good, maybe grab a conjuration spell for CC and an illusion or enchantment spell for a will save or die), but it's not normally considered for tier determination.

Without Expanded Knowledge, both Ardent and Wilder are high T3, maybe low T2 with moderate optimization. With it, both are solidly T2. They have a good chassis, but they lack some of the more impressive powers of their Psion brethren.

I would normally agree, but Wilders in particular get an ACF to get Expanded Knowledge four times for no feat slots, so it does become sort of a class feature for them and it really helps.

[Psyren]

Even without Educated Wilder, Wilders can handle everything CR-appropriate you could throw at them with careful power choice. Not to mention, they can rechoose their entire list on a whim with Psychic Reformation - Warmagi, sorcerers etc. have a much harder time to do this.

[JadePhoenix]

Also, Extra Spell is restricted to your spell list and Expanded Knowledge is not limited to your power list. BIG difference.

[sreservoir]

Also, Extra Spell is restricted to your spell list and Expanded Knowledge is not limited to your power list. BIG difference.

it isn't. faq claims that, but careful reading, and comparing TaB and CA versions' wording, implies otherwise.

[NineThePuma]

it isn't. faq claims that, but careful reading, and comparing TaB and CA versions' wording, implies otherwise.

Yeah, but that falls into DM jurisdiction, and no DM I've ever had has gone "Yeah, go grab whatever spell you want."

[Gnaeus]

Knight: Tier 4. Can be made a half behind Mounted combatant if you REALLY want to. Good at tanking due to AC boosts, d12 hit die, a class entry emphesis on Boosting Con, and the ability to make the monsters leave the rest of the party alone and/or attack you in there place. Pretty much not good at anything else but those things it can due.

Paladin is at least 1/2 tier above knight. Paladins can duplicate almost everything important that a knight can do, and can do a number of useful things that a knight can't ever hope to achieve (Move + full attack with travel devotion, Fly with animal devotion or spells, fight incorporeals, pull a magical warhorse out of his pocket, etc.). Unless paladin is high tier 4, Knight is tier 5.

[Morph Bark]

But it doesn't have a familiar!!

It can switch out its animal companion for one.

DUN.

DUN.

DUNNN.

[Tyndmyr]

Practiced Spellcaster + Master Spellthief. It is the same answer to all CL problems :P (Also, I am not sure, but I think it is possible to get Practiced Spellcaster on your Spellthief level and use that to push your CL over your HD using Master Spellthief).

Honestly, I'd suggest some Ur-Priest and Theurge Specialist(Dragon). Once you're basically done being a lightning warrior, PrCing out is great. Anything with an accelerated casting progression is wonderful.

Theuge Specialist = All your casting classes have a CL = total number of levels of casting progression. How this combos with UP and theurgy is...possibly wild, but assuming the non-crazy interpretation of just setting it equal to your class level(provided they all advance some form of casting), you're doing quite well.

Also, I hate that a Truenamer gets listed as Tier 6 on the extended list. It's pretty clearly superior to a Commoner, etc. I'd park them around Tier 3. Without any shenanigans(assume availability of Core + ToM only, don't bother with UMDing skill boosters), they still have a diverse set of options. Yeah, they don't go above T3 because every Truenamer tends to have the SAME set of options, and broken things are basically just xp-less Gate, but still...that puts you solidly in T3 territory.

[Zaq]

The Truenamer isn't T6. It's N/A. Doesn't fit in the standard rating scheme.

I put the Wilder at the rock bottom of T2. They still get great powers. They're just really limited.

As for the Lurk and the Divine Mind—I call the Lurk T4 and the Divine Mind T6. The Lurk is a lot closer to the Rogue and Warlock than to the Knight and Paladin. The Divine Mind just doesn't have anything going for it. I have no problem putting it on par with the Soulknife.

Does anyone have any in-game experience with a Shugenja? To me, they look like lowish T3, but I could see them anywhere from T2 to T4.

[Tyndmyr]

The Truenamer isn't T6. It's N/A. Doesn't fit in the standard rating scheme.

It's listed as six in the extended list.

That said, it fits at least as well as other things like Artificer. Yes, an artificer with no money at all would be gimped. But that's not a reasonable baseline D&D experience. Assume somewhere around normal WBL, a player bright enough to have some points in the primary stat of SAD classes(like wizard), players putting points into required skills to make the class function(like spellcraft), access to core, and things like that...all of the tier evals assume this. They have to, or some currently rated classes would change tier remarkably. And if you have that, you have a functional, if not great, truenamer. You can improve further with optimization, true...but you rate paladin based on what it normally is, not on pun-pun.

[sreservoir]

Does anyone have any in-game experience with a Shugenja? To me, they look like lowish T3, but I could see them anywhere from T2 to T4.

probably T2, seeing as they they do get campaign smashers like teleports from air and the divinations from water.

[Psyren]

Shugenja are solid T3: "Capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area."

What makes them most useful is the rather simple trick, that your Order does not have to match your element (despite this likely being intended.) So a Water Shugenja can safely skip Order of Gentle Rain due to all the redundancy therein.

Cha-focused with Diplomacy isn't too bad a racket for them either.

[Lans]

Divine Mind T6. The Lurk is a lot closer to the Rogue and Warlock than to the Knight and Paladin. The Divine Mind just doesn't have anything going for it. I have no problem putting it on par with the Soulknife.

Soulknife is T5, and if you compare Divine Mind to the Warrior it comes out ahead, before you factor in its weak manifesting.

For the truenamer its also fairly functional at T5 due to limited out of combat utility and perfected map lexicon

[Greenish]

What tier are the classes from dragon compendium?Don't have the book at hand just now, but I seem to recall all of them being t4 or below


The Wilder says "aha, I see a way I can use my one relevant power in a way that may be useful," or more probably "AHAHAHA I MAKE EVERYTHING BURN BECAUSE THAT'S ALL I CAN DO."Psionic powers are a lot more applicable than spells due to augmentation system.


Duskblade: Tier 3. Solid Damage output, Access to Knowledge and Movement skills on an Int Heavy class. Couple of small tricks on it's spell list.Meh, bit of an one-trick pony with all the blasting. Very low t3 or high-ish t4, I'd say.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Don't have the book at hand just now, but I seem to recall all of them being t4 or below

Sha'ir is a Tier 1 caster- they have access to the entire Wizard spell list and are only constrained by retrieval times.

[AmberVael]

Psionic powers are a lot more applicable than spells due to augmentation system.

I'm very well aware of the benefits of augmentation, though I think this may be overstating it somewhat. It takes some doing, but even a sorcerer's low level spells may be quite useful at high levels, and ultimately, powers rarely change their purpose much even with augmentation. At best, you obviate a "greater" version. This doesn't do much to comfort the level 7 wilder who still only has four powers and may practically be envying the fighter for versatility. (Obviously, I exaggerate).

I think the best way to point out my confusion is that people attempt to put Psion and Wilder in the same tier. Psion gets over three times the powers, five bonus feats (which it could even use on expanded knowledge if it wanted), automatic access to one discipline, and a mildly better casting stat. Wilder gets... a kind of blasty feature that may end up losing it its power points and turns.

I can understand putting wilder in tier 3, just not 2.

[Geigan]

Sha'ir is a Tier 1 caster- they have access to the entire Wizard spell list and are only constrained by retrieval times.

But nobody likes them because they're different.:smalltongue:

Edit:Also I think the Urban Druid should be alright. T2 or T3, since they're essentially a more limited druid on every front. It's like getting 2/3 or even a 1/2 of the druid which is still more than some characters get.

[Greenish]

I think the best way to point out my confusion is that people attempt to put Psion and Wilder in the same tier.Tier 2 has probably the widest net of power by it's definition. Given the stuff wilder has access, it makes for a poor fit for t3 or below, but isn't as good as most of the rest of t2.

[Psyren]

I don't know if I'd put Divine Mind as low as T6. Practiced Manifester is all you need to give them full ML, which by itself puts them ahead of Soulborn; they can also gain access to divine feats using Mind's Eye, and their special version of the Hidden Talent ACF means they can manifest at first level.

[Big Fau]

Sha'ir is a Tier 1 caster- they have access to the entire Wizard spell list and are only constrained by retrieval times.

Constrained by retrieval times? It would take a 20th level Sha'ir 8 hours to fill out his spells/day if he uses only arcane spells he doesn't know. It takes an hour to get his 9th level spells/day alone, meaning he's forcing the party to spend another hour waiting for him to even have level-appropriate abilities. Those spells also fade from retrieval after 1 hour/class level, meaning the class is damn-near unplayable at the low levels.

Never mind that losing your familiar for any reason results in you being useless for an entire day. God help you if it was killed while retrieving spells, because then you're a sitting duck all day to boot. Oh, and the class has no class features worth mentioning until 11th level (at which point they are game-breakers due to infinite Wishes), and you can't multiclass out until at least 8th level unless you don't mind losing all of your retrieved spells for the day. Good luck protecting it when you have to send to to an Elemental Plane just to get your spells/day.

I utterly abhor the Sha'ir.

[Psyren]

Well, at higher levels couldn't he sit on a fast-time plane while doing the retrieval schtick? (I'm largely talking out of my ass here, I've never looked in-depth at Sha'ir.)

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Well, at higher levels couldn't he sit on a fast-time plane while doing the retrieval schtick? (I'm largely talking out of my ass here, I've never looked in-depth at Sha'ir.)

The gen isn't retrieving spells from the plane he's sitting on, though.

[Big Fau]

Well, at higher levels couldn't he sit on a fast-time plane while doing the retrieval schtick? (I'm largely talking out of my ass here, I've never looked in-depth at Sha'ir.)

While he very well could, he'd still have a time limit on his spells/day. I honestly believe that being largely forced to use tricks like Genesis to actually play your character means the class should not be allowed on principle. It sets a very bad standard.

[Psyren]

Oh I agree, it's really bad... just ruminating on theoretical workarounds.

I would make it a bit more like the PF Witch - the Gen is the spellbook, and then maybe some kind of randomization mechanic based on persuading it to teach you the spells you want each day.