SpellThief (Pathfinder, class, Homebrew)

[Erandes]

This is my version of the Spellthief class.

http://db.tt/lB5bKsAY

[Anachronity]

Drain charged item seems odd in how it functions. It requires a ranged touch attack AND allows a saving throw? Also, why do you get to do it for free each round? that's way too much rolling with all the extra attack rolls and saving throws each round. Make it an out-of-combat thing, like you can spend a full-round action to drain charges from an item you are holding, but not an opponent's item. Being able to steal charges for free like that each round is a little bit odd and overpowered and is potentially prone to abuse since you never specified how valuable the item must be (I buy 3 wands of light and drain them every turn on my turn to fuel my 9th level spells!). You also never specify how many charges are drained or how stealing psionic abilities works.

A final point of concern is that you have spellcasting progression up to 9th level despite having almost as many skills as a rogue, a medium BAB, two good saves, and a d8 Hit Die. This may or may not be an issue depending on the exact list of spells, but it's probably too much.

In addition to all of this, you gain free counterspells???

It's pretty good thematically, though. I like how you make the stolen spells work.

[Erandes]

Thank you Anachronity for your feedbacks.

I viewed the drain charged item ability as a way to steal a spell from a charged item such as a wand to cast it yourself on the same round.

I tried to word the steal spell so that the Spellthief can cast a spell of the same level or lower than one he has stolen or the stolen spell. In my conception you could not absorb multiple lv 0 spells to cast a 9th level one, you need a 9 level spell (or higher :P) to cast one. A Spellthief that can't find a spell to steal is effectively a non-caster. But he can effectively learn any spell.

For the psionic part, I want him to use those powers as spells and they can't be augmented.

I viewed the counterspells as some kind of defence against spells that are cast at him, much like the absorb spell from the 3.5's Spellthief.

Most of the class and its abilities is based on the Steal Spell ability. So I'll appreciate any suggestions you might have on how to word it correctly.

thanks

[Delegreg]

Hi,

first off, nice work (i'm just saying it so the rest doesn't sound as bad...)

OK, on to the PEACH :

As remarked before, the chassis is strong, the abilities are not...

No spellcasting at all is ok by me ok, you only list a maximum capacity in "known" spell, which is cool...

Tap Magic : Weird wording, did you mean "any spell even if he does not have a source for it" ? That would be way OP (means you always have the right spell for the situation if you can spend 10m*lvl to get it)

Spellsight : good but should require an opposed check (concentration, knowledge or spellcraft, your choice)

Steal spell : At will, ranged touch, steal up to max spell level, bit OP IMHO, why forfeit the regular sneak attack tradeoff of the spellthief ? Raises five questions :

If i can cast a 6th level spell, can I steal 2 3rd level spells ?
If I steal more spells than the designated target has left what happens ?
How long can i store the spells, as is i could hold on to them forever...
I play in a party with a character with at-will spell-likes, can i use him to "fill-up" ?
Cantrips : If i can cast a 6th level spell, can I steal 12 cantrips at once ? Since they are at-will in PFRPG, what happens ?

Also : A Spellthief can use Steal Spell ability with any weaponlike spell.
What about a Magus 2 /Spellthief 1 using Spell combat ? Can he use 1 Attack + 1 Weaponlike Spell + Steal Spell ?

Sneak Attack : regular, nothing special.

Trapfinding : I believe the last phrase should be in "Steal spell" ...

Spells : So i can't cast if i don't steal. Even cantrips ? Pretty please ?

Innate Counterspell : Way OP unless you specify this uses the regular counterspell rules (maybe mention the PFSRD reference, or quote the rule). Also does it work vs Sp abilities ?

Shadow Persistence : Excellent ! And i do mean it, very good choice of mechanics. Requires a bit of bookkeeping but very flavorful.

Improved dispelling : Comes a bit early, maybe delay it to 8th, but nice.

Drain Charged Item : Also comes too early IMHO. May be require a full-round action at 6th, then reduce the time at 12th (standard) and 18 (swift).

What's missing :

Spellthief powers : give a list of powers that spellthieves can choose every 2 or 3 levels to reinforce their steal spell ability. Even the barbarian gets them ...

Review the spellcasting/steal spell combo, especially regarding "at will" casting.

What does "steal spell" steal from spontaneous casters besides a spell slot ? Look at the original spellthief wording for inspiration. If i steal "teleport" in 3.5, my opponent can no longer teleport. In your version, he'll just use another slot to get away.

What about stealing SR, energy resistance, Su abilities ?

All in all a nice port to PF, but you should rework it some, and playtest it lots :smallsmile:

[Erandes]

1- If i can cast a 6th level spell, can I steal 2 3rd level spells ?

Yes, but the mechanic have change a bit.

2-If I steal more spells than the designated target has left what happens ?

You can't steal a spell if it's not there.

3-How long can i store the spells, as is i could hold on to them forever...

He can store spells until he cast them.

4-I play in a party with a character with at-will spell-likes, can i use him to "fill-up" ?

Yes, but he should lose his at-will for an hour before you can take it again.

I've made some changes to the class taking your advices in mind. I hope to have worded it correctly so it's easy to understand. Thank you all for your time on delivering your PEACH.

I know most Pathfinder classes have special abilities every 2 level, but I don't have any inspiration on how I could add that feature to the class as Delegreg suggested. I'm open to ideas :)

Here's the link to the new version:

http://db.tt/lB5bKsAY

[Delegreg]

Hi,

just read your new version, most of it is yummy, now here are my PEACHes :

Changed CHA dependency for an INT dependency is meh (IMHO i think CHA was better suited (think sorcerer)).

Chassis : D8, Medium BAB, 1 Good save, 6 skill points, balanced for a jack-of-all-trades.

Steal spell : reverted back to the "melee" touch attack is a nerf, you also capped the spell capacity. Small side effect of your changes, if I steal a cantrip, i can cast it at will without expending it (since i cast as per arcane dilletance..).
IMHO you shoud remove the part about divine/psionics, and increase the capacity.

also minor typo : it's "spell levels"

Suggestions for some steal spell powers :
Steal spell on a sneak attack (...)
Steal a spell on a Sleight of Hand Check
Steal spell from a distance
Steal spell 'cleave' (ie : succesfully stealing a spell triggers a new steal spell attempt once per round)
Steal spell 'great cleave' (ie : same as above but several times per round)
Opportunistic Steal (steal from an AoO)
Steal divine spell
Steal psionic power
Steal characteristics (ie 1d4 STR for instance)
Steal DR/ER etc ...

Spellcasting Dilletance* : 3+INT spells, max level 7, big big nerf you did... I'd put it at 2+(LVL/4)+INT to allow for some progression....
Now is able to cast divine spells ... weird ... and remember some classes have lists with spells far earlier than others (...)
Maximum spell level progression is weird (see levels 10,11,12...).

* : Dilletante, dilletance is not a word, you should adjust your text accordingly

Also the class now misses the original "Discover spell" ability (very important IMHO) that you had earlier in "SpellSight". Think about adding it back, but require an opposed check (detection vs concentration maybe ?)

On the feats, the first one should add 2 spells, and the second one 3 spell levels.

All in all you did a good job nerfing the OP things, but now the class is a bit weak :smalltongue:

Try to compare what you did with this class to the Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus), this is probably the balance point you want to target :smallwink:

[Erandes]

I tank you for your PEACH Delereg,

Just to be sure we understand. I wanted the Spellthief to be able to prepared a few spells per day (Arcane Dilletante) so that he has a small spellcasting capacity and a list of know spells to spend his stolen spell energy.

Then a Spellthief can steal a number of spell levels egual to his Stolen Spell Capacity. He can have a maximum of stolen spell egual to his level plus his intelligence modifier.

I did not remove Spell Sight from the previous, did you mean I changed the description so that's it's not as good?

I thought maybe giving him a spellcasting capacity similar to the magus class, but I'm not sure this would keep him balanced. I fear this would give him a too large list of spell to choose from for his stolen spells. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Thanks you your time and your proposition for Steal Spell powers.

[Delegreg]

You're welcome. I just happen to be playing a spellthief (3.5) at the time, and i'm quite biaised on this class :smallwink:


Just to be sure we understand. I wanted the Spellthief to be able to prepared a few spells per day (Arcane Dilletante) so that he has a small spellcasting capacity and a list of know spells to spend his stolen spell energy.

Then a Spellthief can steal a number of spell levels egual to his Stolen Spell Capacity. He can have a maximum of stolen spell egual to his level plus his intelligence modifier.

I saw your intention, your spellthief gets 3+INT spells (known) per day, from day 1 to the 20th level.

Sure they get more powerful with the level, but the number never changes (except for INT increases, going probably from 17 to 30, from +3 to +10).

For example, your spellthief will probably grab "Invisibility" when available, then "Invisibility, Greater" at the upper levels, but that's one slot "taken" from level 5 to 20.

And he doesn't get many more slots as he grows... A 20th level character will hardly make it with 13 (3+INT) spells known (compared to a same level sorceror).

I've thought about it and my earlier suggestion of 2+INT+1/4lvl is a bit much (think 17 7th level spells... ouch...)....


I thought maybe giving him a spellcasting capacity similar to the magus class, but I'm not sure this would keep him balanced. I fear this would give him a too large list of spell to choose from for his stolen spells. Maybe I'm wrong though.

I only mentioned the magus as a reference for balance (I'm playing one right now). He's not an excellent caster (but still a good one), and not an excellent fighter (but still a good one).

The spellthief's not an excellent rogue (not even an average one), but he's an anticaster (and he'd better be good at it) with LIMITED (but still there) casting abilities.

So i'd suggest :

give him something akin to the bard spellcasting progression table (but in spells know like before)
allow him cantrip use (essential at lower levels) of the wizard/sorceror cantrips
allow him to choose his spells every morning, but keep a limit on his spell lists (maybe allow him the 1st-6th level bard and ranger spell lists, or build one yourself)
allow him to cast each one of them once per day BUT with increased casting time (as a sorcerer using a metamagic feat)
allow him to cast NORMALLY only using stolen spell energy


Not that big a difference, a bit nerfed from both your versions, but still enough to let the player enjoy his character.


I did not remove Spell Sight from the previous, did you mean I changed the description so that's it's not as good?

I remember (but my memory is weak) that in your first version you could discover which prepared/known spells the opponent had. That was OP (at 3rd level and without an opposed check) by then. Now it's gone and it's badly missing...

This ability is crucial IMHO (stealing at random is an option in the lower levels, but later you want to know which spells to steal from the 15th level wizard, who has by then almost 40 prepared spells...)

Something nice would be "At 10th level, by spending a move action using spellsight, the spellthief may discover prepared,known spells or Spell Like Abilities his opponent possesses. To do this, roll an opposed check using the spellthief Perception versus the opponent's Concentration. If successful, he discovers either the opponent's prepared spells (in the case of a "prepared" caster), his known spells (in the case of a spontaneous caster), or his list of spell like abilities (for all other cases). Opponents who have multiple casting abilities (multiclass characters or characters with spell-like abilities) require multiple uses of spellsight. In this case, the Spellthief decides which one he discovers first."

Now, don't take my suggestions to the letter (i'm not the most skilled homebrewer here), playtest them if you can, and most importantly DO WHAT YOU FEEL IS RIGHT FOR YOU :smallwink:

And please pardon my english, i'm french :smalltongue:

[Erandes]

I agree that I should give him more spells per day, but not too much. Because this guy can virtually cast indefinitely as long as he can steal spells. spell-likes or supernatural abilities(which will be present in most encounter I think). And he can steal spells with weapon-like spells.

So I don't want to give him a list of known spell too large because in my play test he could compare to a full spellcaster. I didn't test the class on high level though but at low level he can cast indefinitely.

He can use cantrips too if he prepare it in the morning with arcane Dilletante

Thanks again for your help, I'll look up to the class to make the changes soon.

PS: forgive my english as I am french too ^^

[Delegreg]

Had an episode playing mine (3.5 version, with the original ST spellcasting) where we didn't cross path with enemy casters for a few encounters...

What happened is we basically had doubled our casting capacity (2 spells per round since the wizard could lend me his spells) but in the later fights, guess what happened....

We had no usable spells left at all ....

PS : just thought about this particular use of steal spell, you need to mention that on willing targets they do not need an attack action (only a move-equivalent) to borrow a spell...

PPS : PM me if you want to chitchat in french :smallwink: