Giving Melee Nice Things

[undead hero]

I was wondering what are the best way to give melee nice things in 3.5? Pathfinder I think is a good starting point but I'm looking around the net for ways that people have giving melee (mainly fighter/barbarian/rogue/ranger) good stuff.

That being said... I hate the current feat system in 3.5 and PF isn't much better. Feats just don't stack up to really anything... Which got me thinking about weapon enhancements and Final Fantasy Tactics line...

I'm currently working up an AP type system where instead of paying for weapon enhancements with gold a fighter would gain AP = XP (or something like that) and based on the base price of the enhancement he could "learn" to use that enhancement with any weapon the fighter holds (of course keen wouldn't work on a mace etc etc)

If the weapon enhancement is a +1 or equivalent it cost 2,000 gp to put on a weapon. With this system a fighter can learn how to keep his blade keen or how to strike in a better way (use any fluff you want) for 200 AP (Xgp/10=YAP). If it is something like ICY BURST then the fighter is said to know the right type of oil to put on his sword (say an alchemical item that the fighter can make from scratch (but only his/her weapons). Anyways the fluff doesn't matter really that much.

This can be used with armor and shields too of course.

But I wanted to know if there was already work out here that went along these lines that could help me out.

Thanks!

[DonutBoy12321]

What exactly are you asking? Are you looking for useful feats and such for melee?

[Mastikator]

Use pathfinder for non-full-casters. The bump the casters get is arguably larger so pathfinder by no means close the gap.

Also, Tome of battle.

Perhaps also stay at low levels, perhaps E6, the game is way more balanced at lower level.

[Howler Dagger]

I was wondering what are the best way to give melee nice things in 3.5?
First Stop:Tome of Battle!
Yar! The ninjas are here!

[horseboy]

Generally speaking melee stops mattering once a sword stops being a save or die. Either because they can't reach the target or fighters can't dish out damage fast enough. I'd say let them dish out some bleeding, stun, blind, slow, daze and/or stake through the heart. This sort of thing is really easy to justify. Less easy is things like "Slashing wind" attacks to deal with ranged attacks. I'd say make the feats like weapon specialization and such apply to one melee one ranged. Sure you're going to be more one or the other, since you're going to have Combat Expertise or Point Blank Shot, but you won't be hurt nearly as bad.

[pffh]

Third for the tome of battle it makes melee fun and useful (not caster useful but useful). Sure you can build uberchargers that do more damage then a ToB character but they got so much more utility and other stuff to do then "I full attack, again" or "I charge, again" or "I trip him, again" or "Oh no the enemies are walking right past me because I'm not using a lockdown build, again".

[Psyren]

Don't forget non-ToB "melee with options." Incarnates, Totemists, Binders, Psychic Warriors, Factotums, even off-the-wall stuff like Glaivelocks.

[Wyntonian]

We're quickly becoming a pro-ToB choir. I'll add my voice to it gladly.


Tome of Battle...
Lalalalalala....
It's really great for melee types and such...
lalalala....
Use it....
lalalalalalaaaaa...

[Suddo]

Don't forget non-ToB "melee with options." Incarnates, Totemists, Binders, Psychic Warriors, Factotums, even off-the-wall stuff like Glaivelocks.
Yeah Incarnates look ridiculous, I can't wait to use them.

[Roxxy]

I've heard good things about the Book of Experimental Might, and am highly considering picking up a copy. I'll report back if I do.

[Big Fau]

Tome of Battle...
Lalalalalala....
It's really great for melee types and such...
lalalala....
Use it....
lalalalalalaaaaa...

So many Drakengard flashbacks...

[Roxxy]

I considered buying Tome of Battle, but the $40 dollar price tag put me off. Experimental Might is cheaper by a good deal.

[Andion Isurand]

Use pathfinder for non-full-casters. The bump the casters get is arguably larger so pathfinder by no means close the gap.

Also, Tome of battle.

Perhaps also stay at low levels, perhaps E6, the game is way more balanced at lower level.

I second mixing in pathfinder stuff for the non-full casters.

[Coidzor]

^: Except for the Bard's music, don't use Pathfinder's bardic music.
I've heard good things about the Book of Experimental Might, and am highly considering picking up a copy. I'll report back if I do.

Who? What? Where?

[Tvtyrant]

I would allow every single condition as a special attack, and then make an Improved (insert special attack here) for each of them.

Examples:

Concuss: Make an attack roll. You cause no damage on a hit. Instead if successful the amount of that would normally be done is instead the DC of a fort save against being stunned for 1 turn.

Improved Concuss: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when attempting to concuss an opponent while unarmed. On a successful concuss attempt they are stunned for two rounds instead of 1.

Blinding Strike: Make an attack roll. You cause no damage on a hit. Instead the amount of damage you would normally do is instead the DC of a reflex save against being blinded for 3 rounds. A successful save mitigates being blinded to being dazzled, and a successful save with evasion means you avoid being dazzled as well.

Improved Blinding Strike: You do not provoke an AoO when attempting to blind an opponent using Blinding Strike. The DC to save is increased by 4.


^No real attempt to balance those were made, but it would not be hard to implement.

[Draz74]

I considered buying Tome of Battle, but the $40 dollar price tag put me off. Experimental Might is cheaper by a good deal.

Well, the Warblade and all of the Maneuvers are on WotC's website for free ... and then there's homebrew and such ...

[sonofzeal]

WARBLADE! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

MANEUVER CARDS! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a)


Given just those two, it's pretty easy to institute your own fixed for a lot of weaker melee classes - just slap the Warblade's progression on them, and give them some appropriate schools, then tweak to taste. Monks love Setting Sun; Ninjas love Shadow Hand; Swashbucklers love Diamond Mind. The list goes on. ToB makes a great foundation for making just about any melee class more interesting, more varied, and more effective.

[Lycar]

I second mixing in pathfinder stuff for the non-full casters.

I second that. First of all, no dead levels, second, in Ultimate Combat there are a few very nice feats that make Two Weapon Fighting a lot more viable.

Even if that other 'weapon' is really a shield. :smalltongue:

Also makes using Bluff in combat viable. As long as it is part of your Two Weapon Fighting style at least.

[gkathellar]

I've heard good things about the Book of Experimental Might, and am highly considering picking up a copy. I'll report back if I do.

Save yourself the cash and skip it. Experimental Might I is Monte pretending he understands how to balance magic, and Experimental Might II is Monte pretending he understands balance melee.

Let me emphasize again: pretending. Both books are largely unsatisfactory, although BoEM I has some interesting ideas.

[Talionis]

I considered buying Tome of Battle, but the $40 dollar price tag put me off. Experimental Might is cheaper by a good deal.

Look for a used version on an auction site, they don't have to run that much. I'm a big fan of Tome of Battle adding some nice things to melee.

Another idea is to remove all the prerequisites and possible combine all the prerequisites into one feat. That way one feat becomes a melee fighting style. If you have a few of them, you have more optionsin fights and can afford to have more situational feats if you don't have to burn more than one on each fighting style. Example whirlwind attack has a few prerequisites, just add them all as one feat.

[Thiyr]

We're quickly becoming a pro-ToB choir. I'll add my voice to it gladly.


Tome of Battle...
Lalalalalala....
It's really great for melee types and such...
lalalala....
Use it....
lalalalalalaaaaa...

I am reminded of Lamb. Practicing your dirges?

As for the real topic, I shall say that ToB is worth the cost, seeing as I find myself trying to squeeze it into enough builds that I took the time to say "No. I will -not use it for this character....maybe a little? just a little ToB? no, bad bulbasaur!"

And ultimately, I think the biggest problems are a lack of options, a glut of feats you need to take to make things work, and a reliance on movement and standing still. ToB solves it by being wholly separate from your feats. Rangers can get some nice things by going nuts with their ACFs, but that's more because they become minidruids. Other classes take a bit more work which I'm too lazy to do right now.

Sadly, weapon/armor enhancements only go so far as well, I'd say. They don't really solve any of those issues. wealth can be a powerful tool, but I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that more shinies isn't what the fighting guy needs (no matter how much a good bauble can make your day better. Mmm....baubles.)