Worst Prerequisites

[ScionoftheVoid]

Another thread for good-natured jokes toward WotC, this time on the topic of prerequisites.

Whether they're far too high, nonexistent or just plain weird, mention 'em here!

Some examples of what I mean, from the Most Useless Feat thread: You can take Spell Focus and certain Metamagic feats even if you have no means of casting anything. Skill Focus doesn't require ranks in a skill, so you can take in skills which are trained only, or, most oddly, Speak Language (for which you never make a check anyway).

Other examples: You can, for 50gp, own a magic item which gives off a Strong aura of Transmutation. Yes, Universal Solvent requires caster level 20 (and the Disintegrate spell). Sovreign Glue isn't much better, at the same caster level for little more than 1000gp.

Feats, items, classes, whatever. If it's 3.5 and has to do with prereqs, have a ball!

Edit: Thread title may not be the best for the topic, if you have a better one, please suggest it. Apologies if there's a general topic for this kind of thing, but I couldn't find one on the first page and couldn't remember having seen one (for such a thing, if opened up to general weirdness, would surely be ongoing). If there is, this can be closed or forgotten and I'll just make a post there.

[hushblade]

Well Master of 9 is a pain in the butt to qualify for with all of its Feat Pre-reqs.

[Kaje]

Well, obviously there Augment Summoning's prereq, Spell Focus(Conjuration), which doesn't benefit summons a bit.


Well Master of 9 is a pain in the butt to qualify for with all of its Feat Pre-reqs.
Hell, for if you wanna see tons of feat prereqs, open up any given Forgotten Realms book.

[umbergod]

Well, obviously there Augment Summoning's prereq, Spell Focus(Conjuration), which doesn't benefit summons a bit.

but it does benefit conjuration in general, as there are a lot of DD conjuration spells

[Hirax]

Well Master of 9 is a pain in the butt to qualify for with all of its Feat Pre-reqs.

I'm glad this is the first thing that was posted.

In general though, I hate all melee class pre reqs. Whereas so often caster prcs have 'any 1-3 metamagic feats' as a pre req, why can't non-caster prcs be afforded the same leniency? It's another way casters win on flexibility, because their prc pre reqs don't suck nearly as much. IE, instead of frenzied berserker requiring the crappy feats that it does, have it require any 2 rage feats instead of intimidating rage and destructive rage (those are the 2 right?). Skill requirements irk me for the same reason, I'd love for pre reqs to have more flexibility, it would allow for more creativity.

[Steward]

One that I just saw in an other thread. The Demonologist requires you to have at least five levels in a spellcasting class but instead of advancing your original spellcasting like its devil counterpart (Diabolist) it gives you a brand new spellcasting progression that's even worse than your original one.

But that's bearable. Sure, finishing out the class pretty much ruins your casting progression in your original class forever, but quite frankly you deserve it for messing with demons. Besides, most of the Book of Vile Darkness's other prestige classes want you to do something awful to get into the class -- the words 'depraved' and 'disgusting' and 'perverse' get thrown around a lot, so simply submitting to a suboptimal build seems reasonable in comparison.

What's really obnoxious is the Invisible Blade prestige class, from Complete Warrior. It's a dagger-focused prestige class, so you would expect the requirements to be focused around using daggers.

Wrong.

It asks you for Far Shot and Point Blank Shot, two feats that are nearly useless to non-archers and whose benefits are unused by the actual class.. Why? I don't know.

[Lucid]

Initiate of Pistis Sophia from the BoED. The only way to complete the prc pre-epic is by taking 10 levels of Monk ánd Vow of Poverty. And then you'd get 3 more Vows on top of that.

So I guess Mo9's prereqs are more of a pita, as it's a prc you might actually want to enter.

[Snowbluff]

MotN gets special consideration at least. 5 feats, 4 skills to 10? Ridiculous!

[ScionoftheVoid]

I'm glad this is the first thing that was posted.

In general though, I hate all melee class pre reqs. Whereas so often caster prcs have 'any 1-3 metamagic feats' as a pre req, why can't non-caster prcs be afforded the same leniency? It's another way casters win on flexibility, because their prc pre reqs don't suck nearly as much. IE, instead of frenzied berserker requiring the crappy feats that it does, have it require any 2 rage feats instead of intimidating rage and destructive rage (those are the 2 right?). Skill requirements irk me for the same reason, I'd love for pre reqs to have more flexibility, it would allow for more creativity.

On the other hand, casters have crazy stuff like Blood Mage.

"Wow, that trick looks awesome. How'd you do that, Jim?"
"Oh, it's a odd bit of magic. Harder than it looks."
"Could you teach me it?"
"Well, are you fairly tough?"
"Yeah, I'd say so."
"Good at magic in general?"
"Yep."
"Okay, one last question. Have you ever died before?"
"..." *Fireballs*
"So... you don't want the training then."

[Steward]

Initiate of Pistis Sophia from the BoED. The only way to complete the prc pre-epic is by taking 10 levels of Monk ánd Vow of Poverty. And then you'd get 3 more Vows on top of that.

So I guess Mo9's prereqs are more of a pita, as it's a prc you might actually want to enter.

Isn't that the same book with the prestige class that automatically kills off your character upon reaching your capstone? And you have to actually be dead in order to get into the class in the first place?

It is, isn't it?

[Jheska]

Telflammar shadowlord is a hard one.

Get three feats (maybe four), either a template or the shadowdancer class without GM alterations and a bucketload of skills.

How many prestige classes need another prestige class to qualify after all.

[Steward]

Telflammar shadowlord is a hard one.

Get three feats (maybe four), either a template or the shadowdancer class without GM alterations and a bucketload of skills.

How many prestige classes need another prestige class to qualify after all.

Yo dawg, I heard you liked convoluted prestige classes, so I put a convoluted prestige class in your convoluted prestige class you can.... um....

Okay.

[Psyren]

Meditant is sort of rough (needing 4 feats) but definitely worthwhile if you want to go that route.

Blood Magus is tough - not because you have to die and come back to life, but because of the crappy feats :-P

[gkathellar]

Fochlucan Lyrist, full-stop.

"Okay, I've got my bard levels, I've got my druid levels, I've got my skill ranks and my—"
"Evasion."
"************."

[Doug Lampert]

Universal Solvent requires caster level 20 (and the Disintegrate spell). Sovreign Glue isn't much better, at the same caster level for little more than 1000gp.

No it doesn't. The listed caster level is a separate listing from the prerequisites, it is not a prerequisite but rather the assumed level of the item if found at random for item saves and the like.

[Lucid]

Isn't that the same book with the prestige class that automatically kills off your character upon reaching your capstone? And you have to actually be dead in order to get into the class in the first place?

It is, isn't it? It is indeed.

Otoh, the Champion of Gwarrgarble the unspellable from the same book is a quite nice Barbarian prc with some good synergies.

@Steward: Iirc correctly the Invisible Blade's prereqs are an editing error from the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion, since it used to be one class together with Master Thrower.

[sreservoir]

Another thread for good-natured jokes toward WotC, this time on the topic of prerequisites.

Whether they're far too high, nonexistent or just plain weird, mention 'em here!

Some examples of what I mean, from the Most Useless Feat thread: You can take Spell Focus and certain Metamagic feats even if you have no means of casting anything. Skill Focus doesn't require ranks in a skill, so you can take in skills which are trained only, or, most oddly, Speak Language (for which you never make a check anyway).

Other examples: You can, for 50gp, own a magic item which gives off a Strong aura of Transmutation. Yes, Universal Solvent requires caster level 20 (and the Disintegrate spell). Sovreign Glue isn't much better, at the same caster level for little more than 1000gp.

Feats, items, classes, whatever. If it's 3.5 and has to do with prereqs, have a ball!

Edit: Thread title may not be the best for the topic, if you have a better one, please suggest it. Apologies if there's a general topic for this kind of thing, but I couldn't find one on the first page and couldn't remember having seen one (for such a thing, if opened up to general weirdness, would surely be ongoing). If there is, this can be closed or forgotten and I'll just make a post there.

amusingly, those caster levels? aren't prerequisites. they're just considered "standard" for that kind of item. outside of e6 or something (which turns them into prereqs iirc), they don't matter, and you can make the item as soon as you have the actual prerequisites. some items do have an actual CL requirement, but most don't.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Slayer of Domiel or however the heck you spell it. It's from BoED and is basically a good assassin, same set of skills etc. Just you're required to be good instead of evil. Oh and by the way you also need several exalted feats that do nothing for you, one which has two normal prereq feats you don't need either. And then the normal assassin pre-reqs.

Yhea BoED's prestige classes are overall ridiculous.

[bloodtide]

1.Blackguard--Hide skill, why? Why would a blackguard need to hide? How does 'Evil Black Knight' and hide fit? Sure you could be a 'sneaky blackguard' with spiked full plate mail, shield and a nightmare and then..er...hide..on the battlefield. Sure sneak attack is nice, but it would have been better for the blackguard to get some more sneaky stuff to fill up the dead levels.

Plus cleave, improved sunder and power attack. Why all the martial attack feats? The blackguard is not 'that' martial of a class.

2.So the prerequisite is 'must be a 5th level sorcerer', sigh.

[deuxhero]

^^ Go go Avenger (CG and CG are boned though)

^ Yep, Blackguard is a shining example of bad prc design (also of note is their companion gains spell resistance twice)


I'm glad this is the first thing that was posted.

In general though, I hate all melee class pre reqs. Whereas so often caster prcs have 'any 1-3 metamagic feats' as a pre req, why can't non-caster prcs be afforded the same leniency? It's another way casters win on flexibility, because their prc pre reqs don't suck nearly as much. IE, instead of frenzied berserker requiring the crappy feats that it does, have it require any 2 rage feats instead of intimidating rage and destructive rage (those are the 2 right?). Skill requirements irk me for the same reason, I'd love for pre reqs to have more flexibility, it would allow for more creativity.

What about Horizon Walker's "given for free in the intended entry" of endurance?

[Psyren]

Fochlucan Lyrist, full-stop.

"Okay, I've got my bard levels, I've got my druid levels, I've got my skill ranks and my—"
"Evasion."
"************."

I guess they wanted you to be a Ranger/Bard... and dip Druid to learn the language... or something?

Still, thanks to Incarnum we can thumb our noses at CAdv and its silliness.

[BIGMamaSloth]

surprised at no mention of Vassal of Bahamut with it's kill an adolescent red dragon by your self. Remember this class is aimed at paladin's and fighters. :smallfrown:

Also, Didn't Scion of Tem-et-nu have something weird to do with Hippos?

[gkathellar]

I guess they wanted you to be a Ranger/Bard... and dip Druid to learn the language... or something?

Still, thanks to Incarnum we can thumb our noses at CAdv and its silliness.

I'm pretty sure the prereqs are meant to refer back to the 1E bard, which required you to be a kind of fighter/thief/druid IIRC. The problem is that 1E didn't have the strict leveling structure of 3E, and that bards were absolutely amazing in that edition.

[sreservoir]

presumably, that is why the "intended" entry of bard 2/druid 1/rogue 2/fochlucan lyrist allows one to finish fochlucan lyrist to 10 and end with druid +5, yielding a +16 to BAB, just enough to get the fourth iterative in time for epic.

somehow, I don't think that's a coincidence. three 3/4 BAB yielding a 4/4 BAB? feh.

[Geigan]

Primeval from Frostburn. I don't care what anyone says, I loved that class' abilities and concept. Holy crap do it's prereqs suck though. Endurance, Self Sufficent, and *drum-roll* toughness. Friggin' toughness. I think something workable can be made from a wildshape ranger/totemist, but man does it suck for just about anyone else.

[navar100]

I'm glad this is the first thing that was posted.

In general though, I hate all melee class pre reqs. Whereas so often caster prcs have 'any 1-3 metamagic feats' as a pre req, why can't non-caster prcs be afforded the same leniency? It's another way casters win on flexibility, because their prc pre reqs don't suck nearly as much. IE, instead of frenzied berserker requiring the crappy feats that it does, have it require any 2 rage feats instead of intimidating rage and destructive rage (those are the 2 right?). Skill requirements irk me for the same reason, I'd love for pre reqs to have more flexibility, it would allow for more creativity.

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil does have the horrible prerequisites of Spell Focus (Abjuration) and Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), the school with very, very few spells with saving throw DC, the first one not till 4th level, and for a spell having nothing to do with the theme. Spell Compendium I think offers one or two abjuration spells with saving throws below 4th level, but Initiate was published first. Prismatic Sphere is an abjuration spell with a saving throw, so they must have decided to use that as a basis, but big whoop. Those are two feats wasted for practically your entire pre-epic career.

[Lateral]

Risen Martyr. 'Nuff said.

[Greenish]

What's really obnoxious is the Invisible Blade prestige class, from Complete Warrior. It's a dagger-focused prestige class, so you would expect the requirements to be focused around using daggers.

Wrong.

It asks you for Far Shot and Point Blank Shot, two feats that are nearly useless to non-archers and whose benefits are unused by the actual class.. Why? I don't know.

@Steward: Iirc correctly the Invisible Blade's prereqs are an editing error from the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion, since it used to be one class together with Master Thrower.Not a conversion error, but Invisible Blade (originally a 10-level throwing-focused PrC) got butchered by the editors when writing the book.

[FMArthur]

Fochlucan Lyrist's requirements may be annoying, but Magelord's are downright enraging. It's absurd. I don't think it's actually possible for a normal character in a class that gets 9ths to actually get all 10 levels into one build unless you're using Beholder Mage or something, which only gets 3d6 Sneak Attack in benefits from the class. Maybe PAO cheese is required for entry so that you can be a monster with Evasion as a racial feature? It's really wierd.

Less difficult but more galling is Invisible Blade, which has been pointed out already as having completely unrelated requirements on account of being part of another class originally.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Fleshwarper is really hard to qualify for, thanks to the deceptive prereqs for the Graft Flesh feat (or whatever it's called). The class itself requires some 4 or 5 ranks in Heal, which is no big deal cross-class for most casters, but the Graft Flesh feat itself requires 10 (!) ranks in Heal, and you also need a familiar.

[deuxhero]

So Adept or Ranger with ACF?

[ScionoftheVoid]

No it doesn't. The listed caster level is a separate listing from the prerequisites, it is not a prerequisite but rather the assumed level of the item if found at random for item saves and the like.


amusingly, those caster levels? aren't prerequisites. they're just considered "standard" for that kind of item. outside of e6 or something (which turns them into prereqs iirc), they don't matter, and you can make the item as soon as you have the actual prerequisites. some items do have an actual CL requirement, but most don't.

Fair enough, never mind. The 50gp Solvent still requires Disintegrate, which means you'll probably be at least 13th level before you can craft it. And still gives off a Strong aura of Transmutation. Which is really funky for throwing off Detect Magic results. Shove it in a treasure hoard and watch the players go crazy until they can get an Identify... I need to do that sometime.


On topic, Geomancer has some really awful prereqs. Second level casting in both arcane and divine, but it only advances one of the two.:smallsigh: The class abilities are cool, but not so cool that I'd actually take the class without early entry shenanigans. Unfortunately, that's easier to do on the arcane side, which benefits more from the class than the divine side does. So you still lose several levels of casting, at which point you may just skip early entry. Or, easier, just skip the PrC completely.

Edit:
2.So the prerequisite is 'must be a 5th level sorcerer', sigh.

Dragon Disciple? Technically I think you can qualify as a Bard, even in Core. Go outside of Core and it opens up a fair bit. The prereq that's screwy there is "Race: Any nondragon". Combined with it's capstone, it means that either you need only meet prereqs when you enter the class (and can lose them afterwards at no penalty, making Rings of Evasion really helpful for things like Fochlucan Lyrist) or it keeps disqualifying itself, losing the half-dragon template, re-qualifying and disqualifying itself all over again.

[FMArthur]

Fair enough, never mind. The 50gp Solvent still requires Disintegrate, which means you'll probably be at least 13th level before you can craft it. And still gives off a Strong aura of Transmutation. Which is really funky for throwing off Detect Magic results. Shove it in a treasure hoard and watch the players go crazy until they can get an Identify... I need to do that sometime.


On topic, Geomancer has some really awful prereqs. Second level casting in both arcane and divine, but it only advances one of the two.:smallsigh: The class abilities are cool, but not so cool that I'd actually take the class without early entry shenanigans. Unfortunately, that's easier to do on the arcane side, which benefits more from the class than the divine side does. So you still lose several levels of casting, at which point you may just skip early entry. Or, easier, just skip the PrC completely.

But Geomancer's pretty decent if you do get early entry on the divine side to go arcane-heavy - that way it's just one level lost and gives you nice features on a nice chassis. I can't think of any reason to do divine-heavy Geomancer though.

[dextercorvia]

Hierophant.

Requires a metamagic feat and the ability to cast 7th level spells. And then it steals your ice and leaves you in a bathtub full of kidneys.

[ScionoftheVoid]

But Geomancer's pretty decent if you do get early entry on the divine side to go arcane-heavy - that way it's just one level lost and gives you nice features on a nice chassis. I can't think of any reason to do divine-heavy Geomancer though.

Oh yeah, certainly, but I don't know Divine early-entry nearly as well as Arcane. I couldn't give you an approximate description of a Divine early-entry trick from memory, for example. If you have any appropriate links, that'd be great (thank you in advance, just in case).

[dextercorvia]

Oh yeah, certainly, but I don't know Divine early-entry nearly as well as Arcane. I couldn't give you an approximate description of a Divine early-entry trick from memory, for example. If you have any appropriate links, that'd be great (thank you in advance, just in case).

Southern Magician, Mitigated Heighten, Improved Sigil (Krau), Sanctum Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, etc.

[Kaje]

I like a SotAO Mystic Ranger entry for Geomancers.

[arguskos]

Fochlucan Lyrist's requirements may be annoying, but Magelord's are downright enraging. It's absurd. I don't think it's actually possible for a normal character in a class that gets 9ths to actually get all 10 levels into one build unless you're using Beholder Mage or something, which only gets 3d6 Sneak Attack in benefits from the class. Maybe PAO cheese is required for entry so that you can be a monster with Evasion as a racial feature? It's really wierd.
Actually, there *is* a way to do it, but your DM has to be nice (it's a fuzzy equivalency thing). Divine Oracle's Prescient Sense is basically Evasion, and lets you get in at level 10 instead of 11. Yeah, not a lot better. Ugh, I love Magelord SO DAMN MUCH but the designers really didn't. :smallsigh:

[ScionoftheVoid]

Southern Magician, Mitigated Heighten, Improved Sigil (Krau), Sanctum Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, etc.

Thanks, I remember three of those, and know that I lack the book Southern Magician is in (don't know what book it is, just know that I don't have it and won't for a rather considerable length of time). Mitigating Heighten spell is probably something I should just look up and revise for general purposes.

[sonofzeal]

What's really obnoxious is the Invisible Blade prestige class, from Complete Warrior. It's a dagger-focused prestige class, so you would expect the requirements to be focused around using daggers.

Wrong.

It asks you for Far Shot and Point Blank Shot, two feats that are nearly useless to non-archers and whose benefits are unused by the actual class.. Why? I don't know.
Actually, "Far Shot" is pretty useless for archers given that few encounters start beyond a couple hundred feet... but it's tremendously useful for throwers, who can reasonably expect to be biting range penalties regularly.

Daggers can be thrown. Dagger Sneak Attack applies at ranges of up to 30 feet. And throwing 30 feet gives a significant penalty without Far Shot.

So.... not at all useless for them. Still out of place I'll admit, but Far Shot is a reasonable choice for a dagger-focused character

[erikun]

Primeval from Frostburn. I don't care what anyone says, I loved that class' abilities and concept. Holy crap do it's prereqs suck though. Endurance, Self Sufficent, and *drum-roll* toughness. Friggin' toughness. I think something workable can be made from a wildshape ranger/totemist, but man does it suck for just about anyone else.
Wow, it's like they looked at Dwarven Defender and thought their prerequisites weren't bad enough.

Speaking of which: Mobility. How many prestige classes require mobility, or could be good with the feat, except for the completely worthless feat tax associated with it?

[Infernalbargain]

I think combat expertise and anything that has it as a Pre-req is really bad. It is yet another finger to melee.

[dextercorvia]

Actually, there *is* a way to do it, but your DM has to be nice (it's a fuzzy equivalency thing). Divine Oracle's Prescient Sense is basically Evasion, and lets you get in at level 10 instead of 11. Yeah, not a lot better. Ugh, I love Magelord SO DAMN MUCH but the designers really didn't. :smallsigh:

Wizard9/InitiateoftheDraconicMysteries1/Magelord10 is unquestionable. Use the UA variant to grab IUS in place of Scribe Scroll, and Power Attack at level 5. That is a lot of feat prereq's, but a human can do it without flaws.

[FMArthur]

Actually I forgot about Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) + Open Lesser Chakra (Feet) giving you actual Evasion. What a massive feat sinkhole for Magelord, though... and it still doesn't really answer the question of who they expected to use the class at the time of writing.

[sreservoir]

Actually I forgot about Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) + Open Lesser Chakra (Feet) giving you actual Evasion. What a massive feat sinkhole for Magelord, though... and it still doesn't really answer the question of who they expected to use the class at the time of writing.

doesn't work.

[Kaje]

Yup, you explicitly need evasion as a class or racial feature.

[FMArthur]

Oh dang, that level requirement...

The feat is giving you a class feature though. It's not your class feature, but it lets you grab an ability from another class's features, and that feature provides evasion.

[Psyren]

doesn't work.


Yup, you explicitly need evasion as a class or racial feature.

It does work, because it is a class feature - and even points you to the class it's coming from. FL never says it has to be a feature of YOUR class.


Chakra Bind (Feet)
You gain the evasion ability (see page 50 of the Player's Handbook.)

[arguskos]

Wizard9/InitiateoftheDraconicMysteries1/Magelord10 is unquestionable. Use the UA variant to grab IUS in place of Scribe Scroll, and Power Attack at level 5. That is a lot of feat prereq's, but a human can do it without flaws.
Huh. A legit method. I like. I tend to ask DMs to be reasonable, myself, but it's good to see that there is a legit RAW method to do it. Thanks!

[gomipile]

The entry requirements for Spelldancer are pretty rough. Considering its main use is in metamagic, requiring four non-metamagic feats is fairly punishing for any leveling build.

[herrhauptmann]

The entry requirements for Spelldancer are pretty rough. Considering its main use is in metamagic, requiring four non-metamagic feats is fairly punishing for any leveling build.

Is metamagic mitigation the intended use for spelldancer? I know that's all anyone uses it for...

[Venger]

surprised at no mention of Vassal of Bahamut with it's kill an adolescent red dragon by your self. Remember this class is aimed at paladin's and fighters. :smallfrown:

Also, Didn't Scion of Tem-et-nu have something weird to do with Hippos?

you are very close.

the feat "blessed of tem-et-nu" requires that you worship tem et nu as your patron (with you so far) and I think have a compatible alignment and that you defeat a hippopotamus in single combat. after this, you are allowed to rebuke hippopotami as an evil cleric rebukes undead and hippopotami will never attack you unless compelled magically. also cleric's always a favoured class for you if your DM is horrible and actually uses that rule.

if you ever dump tem et nu as your patron deity or switch to the wrong alignment, then you take damage as though bitten by a hippopotamus

one of the oddest prereqs and feats in general overall

[Steward]

How many campaigns really feature hippos enough to make that a worthwhile investment? Some prestige classes fit in many settings. Others (the majority, I feel) require a reasonable amount of collaboration between DM and player in order to make them useful. And a few require the DM to bend over backwards and include contrived scenarios to get them to work.

[Jheska]

I would also argue the previously mentioned feat could qualify as one of the worst feats for that other thread, as it has the potential to actually kill you.

[Tyndmyr]

On the other hand, casters have crazy stuff like Blood Mage.

"Wow, that trick looks awesome. How'd you do that, Jim?"
"Oh, it's a odd bit of magic. Harder than it looks."
"Could you teach me it?"
"Well, are you fairly tough?"
"Yeah, I'd say so."
"Good at magic in general?"
"Yep."
"Okay, one last question. Have you ever died before?"
"..." *Fireballs*
"So... you don't want the training then."

While crazy, I think that's actually a fairly common prereq. Let's see...Risen Martyr has it, I do believe(and kills you again as the capstone for good measure). Always worthy of a mention.

Also, there's a FEAT that requires you to die to get it. Can't recall the name offhand, but it lets you talk to the recently dead for cha mod minutes. Interesting and kind of useful for some sorts, but that's a harsh prereq just to pick up a feat.

[Steward]

While crazy, I think that's actually a fairly common prereq. Let's see...Risen Martyr has it, I do believe(and kills you again as the capstone for good measure). Always worthy of a mention.

I think the most insulting aspect of that class is that you can never leave it. It's the prestige-class equivalent of being welded to the tracks in the path of an oncoming train. You know what's coming, you know it's going to be godawful, and there's nothing you can do about it but sit back and enjoy the ride.

It's like being on death row. But exalted.

[Thurbane]

Fleshwarper is really hard to qualify for, thanks to the deceptive prereqs for the Graft Flesh feat (or whatever it's called). The class itself requires some 4 or 5 ranks in Heal, which is no big deal cross-class for most casters, but the Graft Flesh feat itself requires 10 (!) ranks in Heal, and you also need a familiar.

So Adept or Ranger with ACF?
You could play a Glimmerskin Halfling, or be a Sorcerer and grab the Draconic Heritage (Gold) feat...but yeah, 10 ranks is way too much.

[ericgrau]

Hierophant.

Requires a metamagic feat and the ability to cast 7th level spells. And then it steals your ice and leaves you in a bathtub full of kidneys.
It doesn't give you caster levels because you can now semi-break the game in lolzy ways.

Select between:
free reach spell
Now your whole party can turn undead
Now your party barbarian can wildshape as well as you... while also retaining all his other class features such as rage
spell power your holy words into wiping out foes with more HD than you
spell power + spell-like-ability + quicken spell like ability (feat) to quicken higher level spells earlier

You may choose multiple with enough PrC levels.

[Thurbane]

Primeval from Frostburn. I don't care what anyone says, I loved that class' abilities and concept. Holy crap do it's prereqs suck though. Endurance, Self Sufficent, and *drum-roll* toughness. Friggin' toughness. I think something workable can be made from a wildshape ranger/totemist, but man does it suck for just about anyone else.
Wow, now that's just bad - three of the least useful core feats in the game. Surprised they didn't thrown Run in there as well.

[Geigan]

Wow, now that's just bad - three of the least useful core feats in the game. Surprised they didn't thrown Run in there as well.

Endurance can be gotten as a bonus feat from some races and classes, and it qualifies you for steadfast endurance which is cool. Toughness can at least be replaced with azure toughness for an extra point of essentia for incarnum classes. Self Sufficient is hard to justify as useful at all though. Maybe if your DM sets really high survival checks wherever you are and you have to make lots of stabilization checks? Woe-betide if you want to take this class without Incarnum though as toughness is the epitome of uselessness. Though at least it's not the worst feat you could possibly take as the previous thread on terrible feats showed us. It comes close though. Reeeeaaalll close.:smallannoyed:

[Captain Six]

Endurance is a decent feat if you've got a DM who actually uses natural hazards. Although in campaigns not perpetually stuck at low levels I imagine it gets less useful over time.

Iron Will is an odd prerequisite feat because of how many different classes it allows you to qualify for. It would almost justify it as a decent feat even if it didn't do anything, so throw on +10% resistance to save-or-lose and it not actually that bad.

[Hazzardevil]

I may just be making this up but I think I found c class which required a certain alingment but you had to be the opposite allingment to take a feat to get in and both lost their abilities for changing requirements.

[Rubik]

I may just be making this up but I think I found c class which required a certain alingment but you had to be the opposite allingment to take a feat to get in and both lost their abilities for changing requirements.Could potentially work with the right race. A LG succubus? She counts as L, G, C, and E for the purposes of...well...everything.

[Analytica]

Concerning Magelord, IIRC the designer didn't put the Evasion requirement in, it was added in editing. When asked, his suggestion was dropping requirements to 4th-level spells as a fix.

Also... that Sensate PRC from Planar Handbook with scaling prerequisites...

[deuxhero]

I may just be making this up but I think I found c class which required a certain alingment but you had to be the opposite allingment to take a feat to get in and both lost their abilities for changing requirements.

Hellbred I think also works for this, not sure.

[Rubik]

Hellbred I think also works for this, not sure.I'm 99.5% sure that that only allows you to remain Good while casting Evil spells for good purposes.

[dextercorvia]

It doesn't give you caster levels because you can now semi-break the game in lolzy ways.

Select between:
free reach spell
Now your whole party can turn undead
Now your party barbarian can wildshape as well as you... while also retaining all his other class features such as rage
spell power your holy words into wiping out foes with more HD than you
spell power + spell-like-ability + quicken spell like ability (feat) to quicken higher level spells earlier

You may choose multiple with enough PrC levels.

Most of those are equivalent to an ability that Archmage trades one fifth level slot for, as opposed to his highest level spells.

[Wyntonian]

Dwarven Defender, a class entirely based around sitting around and being so bad even other melee types are sorry for you, requires Mobility and Dodge. So you can take levels in a class with a flagship ability based around not moving. Mobility. Not moving. :smallannoyed:


Also, ****ing dodge.

[Velaryon]

Fochlucan Lyrist, full-stop.

"Okay, I've got my bard levels, I've got my druid levels, I've got my skill ranks and my—"
"Evasion."
"************."

Fochlucan Lyrist is pretty harsh to get into, but once you get in it's a friggin' party. Full casting progression of both bard and druid, full BAB, two good saves, advancement of all the important bard class features, and 6 + Int skills per level? That's worth jumping through a lot of hoops to get.


I thought of a few odd prerequisites that I haven't seen mentioned yet. I go into some length about them so I'll spoiler them for space.

Mountain Tombstone Strike, the 9th level Stone Dragon maneuver in Tome of Battle. It's weird because as listed it has no prerequisites, whereas the capstone maneuvers for all the other schools tend to require four or even five maneuvers known from that school. I generally assume that the lack of prerequisites in this case was a mistake, and rule that it requires 4 Stone Dragon maneuvers known, to make it more like the other classes, but as written the only thing you need is to be able to learn 9th level maneuvers.


Or how about the Reaping Mauler class from Complete Warrior? It's a grappling-based prestige class that requires you to actively be bad at grappling in order to gain access to the class. Not only does it give you Improved Grapple at first level in the class (which any character who cares about grappling would already have by level 3 at the latest), but it requires Clever Wrestling - a feat that A) is designed to avoid grappling, and B) you must be Small or Medium sized to have. The best way to become a good grappler is to gain bonuses from size, a route which disqualifies you from having Clever Wrestling. So if you make yourself larger than Medium through spells, psionic powers, magic items or whatever, you lose access to the feat and therefore to your class features.

What they should have done was make Improved Grapple a prerequisite and had the class grant Clever Wrestling at 1st level, which would turn the class from unbearably bad to merely flavorful but weak.

But why go all the way to the Complete series or Tome of Battle to find stupid prerequisites, when we don't even have to leave core to find them?

Take Shot on the Run.

It's pretty clear that the designers were lazy and didn't think about this one. Their thought process was apparently "it's basically Spring Attack for ranged fighters, right? So just give it the same prereqs, but add Point Blank Shot since all the ranged feats need PBS as a requirement too.

What this results in is a similar but generally worse feat having harsher prerequisites, including a feat that pretty much does nothing at all (Dodge) and a feat specifically for melee (Mobility) that will never ever apply to a ranged attacker unless they go out of their way to run through someone's threatened square just to get some use out of the feat.

But if you ask me, nothing beats Whirlwind Attack for sheer amount of stupid prerequisites.
Four feats, two ability score requirements, and a BAB requirement for a feat that requires you to put yourself in harm's way, get in the way of any AoE spells your magic-using allies might want to use, and will still only provide extremely situational benefits? That's pretty harsh. It's clear that the game designers thought this feat was a LOT more powerful than it actually is.

And do any of those prerequisites make sense for Whirlwind Attack? Not really. Whirlwind Attack is a full-round action, so you can't use Mobility or Spring Attack with it unless you gain an extra move action from somewhere, which isn't possible for melee types in core as far as I know. Technically you can use Dodge with it (although the two feats are not in any way related, and it's not going to help you against the other four guys you're putting yourself next to, most of whom are still going to be standing after you take your one attack each against them). And Combat Expertise? By the time you can actually qualify for Whirlwind Attack, Combat Expertise with its arbitrary cap of +5 isn't going to provide you with any meaningful amount of protection so it's not worth using.

This definitely gets my vote for worst feat prerequisites ever. It's been pointed out that there are a couple classes and maybe a feat that require you to die before you can take them. It seems to me that if you need to die, then trying to use Whirlwind Attack is a pretty effective way to go about it.

[Rizhail]

Hell, for if you wanna see tons of feat prereqs, open up any given Forgotten Realms book.

There's no denying this one. My personal favorite PrC (thematically mind you, mechanically it makes me die inside) is the Gnome Artificer from Magic of Faerun.

The pre-reqs...are rather harsh. Even for a 3rd edition Faerun book (though in this case, mostly it's the SKILL pre-reqs that are nasty)

It has, and I quote:



To qualify to become a gnome artificer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Gnome (or human from the Lantan region).
Skills: Alchemy 3 ranks, Craft (armorsmithing, blacksmithing, gemcutting, locksmithing, metalworking, trapmaking, or weaponmaking) 8 ranks, Craft (any other two from the previous list) 4 ranks, Disable Device 2 ranks, Knowledge (architecture) 4 ranks, Knowlwedge (engineering) 4 ranks, Profession (apothecary, engineer, or siege engineer) 3 ranks.
Feats: Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus (any of the above Craft skills)
Spellcasting: Able to cast 1st-level arcane spells of the Illusion school.

Ow. The race requirement is mostly fluff (and easily dropped, if you want to port the class to another setting as a generic 'steampunk' type of class), but everything else HURTS.

That's a minimum of 32 skill points spent. No class at the time (again, before 3.5 and the Factotum) had all of those as class skills. You either went rogue/wizard or straight bard to qualify, and you burned way too many skills points. The real kicker? NONE OF THOSE SKILLS ARE USED BY THIS CLASS (save maybe Disable Device, if you already have trapfinding). All that crafting and knowledge and what not isn't used in any way, shape, or form by the class's device crafting abilities (which, like magic item crafting, involve no skill checks).

You are most likely a rogue or bard going into the class, so Lightning Reflexes isn't particularly useful. The gnome artificer only has one good save, and that's Reflex, so that feat is overkill. As stated above, the craft skills aren't used by the class, so skill focus (craft) is an even bigger waste than it would normally be.

And the spellcasting? DOES NOTHING HERE. Seriously, you could dropkick the Alchemy and Spellcasting requirements, and the class wouldn't change at all. It doesn't support spellcasting at all, and only has it as a requirement to provide a fluff reason for the capstone ability of the class (which grants some better item effects and makes supernatural devices rather than mundane devices). It's a caster level you will never upgrade in your ten levels of using this class.

So yeah, that's the most egregious pre-req in my mind. Granted, I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread yet, so maybe someone else found one even crazier.

[Suddo]

Fochlucan Lyrist, full-stop.

"Okay, I've got my bard levels, I've got my druid levels, I've got my skill ranks and my—"
"Evasion."
"************."

Yeah but dual caster levels plus full BAB is just silly. And if you can cheat learning Druid (or just dip) Evasion can be faked.

I just ran a Tempest in a one shot. Man Spring-Attack is the most bull **** thing ever. The Pre-Reqs are split. Either A) Spring Attack or B) Full Attack for 4 attacks. I don't care if they want you to spring attack but make that its purpose and not make you multi-idea based. If it wasn't for that it would be an awesome PrC.

[Tengu_temp]

Eunuch Sorcerer. Take three guesses what's one of its prerequisites, and the first two don't count.

Harem Guard is even worse. It actually requires you to take a feat whose sole effect is "you are sterile".

[Hazzardevil]

Eunuch Sorcerer. Take three guesses what's one of its prerequesites, and the first two don't count.

Harem Guard is even worse. It actually requires you to take a feat whose sole effect is "you are sterile".

Guesses:
Great Fortitude
Lightning Relfexes
Iron Will

And where's Harem Guard from?

It seems like the Authors of prestige classes were told that each feat completely changed a character and that everyone was expected to only enter one prestige class that would make people respect you, but make you terrible in combat.

Apart from wizards, because everyone knows that wizards are underpowered.

[Tengu_temp]

And where's Harem Guard from?


Well, what book would consider such an effect important enough to be worth a feat? Ayup, we're talking about BoEF here.

[Analytica]

Guesses:
Great Fortitude
Lightning Relfexes
Iron Will

Close, but no cigar (any longer...). :smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

Endurance is a decent feat if you've got a DM who actually uses natural hazards. Although in campaigns not perpetually stuck at low levels I imagine it gets less useful over time.

Iron Will is an odd prerequisite feat because of how many different classes it allows you to qualify for. It would almost justify it as a decent feat even if it didn't do anything, so throw on +10% resistance to save-or-lose and it not actually that bad.

Toss in that you can get it via Otoyugh Hole, and it's really not a bad option at all. I've certainly taken it many a time.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You could play a Glimmerskin Halfling, or be a Sorcerer and grab the Draconic Heritage (Gold) feat...but yeah, 10 ranks is way too much.

Is there any arcane-friendly way to get a bonus feat without pre-requisites? Or perhaps some Dusk Giant/Inspire Greatness+psychic reformation shenaningans?

[Tyndmyr]

Is there any arcane-friendly way to get a bonus feat without pre-requisites? Or perhaps some Dusk Giant/Inspire Greatness+psychic reformation shenaningans?

Well, there's always pledging yourself to an Elder Evil. Five free, delicious, juicy feats. Tends to have consequences though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Aren't they restricted from a specific list? And even if you use Dark Chaos Shuffle you need to be able to qualify for the feat AFAIK...

[Tyndmyr]

Aren't they restricted from a specific list? And even if you use Dark Chaos Shuffle you need to be able to qualify for the feat AFAIK...

Yes...a chaos shuffle is usually assumed to get the ones you really want. I don't recall any prereq language in the chaos shuffle...but it might be there, it's been a bit. That said, five feats can often take care of many prereqs.

[Mephit]

the feat "blessed of tem-et-nu" requires that you worship tem et nu as your patron (with you so far) and I think have a compatible alignment and that you defeat a hippopotamus in single combat.

This still wins hands-down. Whoever got that published in Sandstorm is either the real life equivalent of a Gnome Trickster, or takes his hippopotami very seriously.

[Curmudgeon]

In the "too high" category:

Entry Requirements

Race: Drow.
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Listen 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks.
Feats: Cautious Attack (see page 47).
Domain: Trickery.
Special: Evasion.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6 or skirmish +2d6.

[Demon of Death]

Yes...a chaos shuffle is usually assumed to get the ones you really want. I don't recall any prereq language in the chaos shuffle...but it might be there, it's been a bit. That said, five feats can often take care of many prereqs.

There is indeed prerequisite language in it.

"If the subject possesses any Abyssal heritor feats,
one of them is immediately removed and replaced by
and other feat for which the subject qualifies except
an Abyssal heritor feat)."

Emphasis should be unneeded.

[Dusk Eclipse]

In the "too high" category:

Entry Requirements

Race: Drow.
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Listen 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks.
Feats: Cautious Attack (see page 47).
Domain: Trickery.
Special: Evasion.
Special: Sneak attack +2d6 or skirmish +2d6.

....Dread Fang of Lolth?

[Curmudgeon]

....Dread Fang of Lolth?
Close. It's actually the Eye of Lolth.

[Hazzardevil]

Yathrinshee is worse.

Race: Drow
Gender: Female
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana and Religion) 7 ranks and Perform (Sing) 3 ranks
Feats: Lichloved and Spell Focus Necromancy
Spells: Animate Dead as a divine spell and Spectral Hand as an arcane hand.
Patron Deity: Kiaransalee

So you need 17 skill ranks, 2 feats, one that will be useless by the time you qualify for the class and another that will rarely come into play, a deity that no one has ever heard of and you have to stomach 2 LA on a theurge type class.

[Curmudgeon]

Yathrinshee is worse.
...
So you need 17 skill ranks, 2 feats, one that will be useless by the time you qualify for the class and another that will rarely come into play, a deity that no one has ever heard of and you have to stomach 2 LA on a theurge type class.
You sure about that? Cautious Attack has Dodge as a prerequisite, so that's also 2 feats (neither ever taken except as prerequisites) for Eye of Lolth. 28 skill ranks, the same race requirement, and also features you can't get without at least 2 other classes.

I'd say it's a wash. At least Yathrinshee has better spellcasting advancement, while Eye of Lolth's sole desirable characteristic is Extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight that works like the Assassin's Supernatural HiPS.

[DonutBoy12321]

Ur-Priest requires Spell Focus: Evil, which in turn requires Evil alignment. Ur-Priests shouldn't be evil. Even if you steal divine energy from Tharizdun himself and kill Orcus with it, you are evil.

[navar100]

Eunuch
:smallyuk:

[sreservoir]

Ur-Priest requires Spell Focus: Evil, which in turn requires Evil alignment. Ur-Priests shouldn't be evil. Even if you steal divine energy from Tharizdun himself and kill Orcus with it, you are evil.

mind, ur-priests don't have to stay evil. CD isn't one of the books that require you to maintain prereqs for prcs, iirc.

[Dusk Eclipse]

mind, ur-priests don't have to stay evil. CD isn't one of the books that require you to maintain prereqs for prcs, iirc.

There is still debate whether those rules applies only Prg. Classes in such books (CWar and CArc IIRC) or if they are general rules that all prg. classes must follow, personally I am think it is the first one.

[DonutBoy12321]

mind, ur-priests don't have to stay evil. CD isn't one of the books that require you to maintain prereqs for prcs, iirc.

If CD was one of those books, you couldn't take Ur-Priest anyways. One of it's requirements is not having divine casting.

[sonofzeal]

There is still debate whether those rules applies only Prg. Classes in such books (CWar and CArc IIRC) or if they are general rules that all prg. classes must follow, personally I am think it is the first one.
I go with the latter interpretation as far as RAW is concerned - the "primary source" for what happens when you cease to qualify for a PrC is CWar/CArc, and neither are worded to imply they only hold for those books.

Let's put it this way - CWar has rules on heavy falling objects. Do those rules apply only to heavy objects from the CWar book, or to any heavy falling object?

That said, I'm of the opinion that strict-RAW is rarely the best way to play in practice, and that a good DM will make judgement calls. Some PrCs obviously don't make sense if you lose the requirements (RSoP who converts to Nerrul, for exaple). Some do make sense that way (Reaping Mauler under the effect of Enlarge Person). Really, this is part of what the DM's there for, and should be left to their discretion.

[gkathellar]

mind, ur-priests don't have to stay evil. CD isn't one of the books that require you to maintain prereqs for prcs, iirc.

IIRC the rule about losing class features is universal for all prestige classes. Only base classes that don't have "ex-X" rules can lose a required alignment with no consequences.

[FearlessGnome]

If CD was one of those books, you couldn't take Ur-Priest anyways. One of it's requirements is not having divine casting.

Sounds to me like a clear cut case of Alter Reality. :smallsigh: Which is what you get for trying to steal from the gods. :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

There is still debate whether those rules applies only Prg. Classes in such books (CWar and CArc IIRC) or if they are general rules that all prg. classes must follow
Which rule would you follow if you did want to apply this idea generally? The rules are substantially different:

You retain class features other than the column marked Special with the Complete Arcane rule (lose "all special abilities"), which means you retain all those Spells Known/Spells per Day features), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever.
With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those return when you re-qualify.

[SirFredgar]

Which rule would you follow if you did want to apply this idea generally? The rules are substantially different:

You retain class features other than the column marked Special with the Complete Arcane rule (lose "all special abilities"), which means you retain all those Spells Known/Spells per Day features), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever.
With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those return when you re-qualify.


I can't seem to find it, but I was surethere was something in the Rules Compendium that clarified this.

[sonofzeal]

Which rule would you follow if you did want to apply this idea generally? The rules are substantially different:

You retain class features other than the column marked Special with the Complete Arcane rule (lose "all special abilities"), which means you retain all those Spells Known/Spells per Day features), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever.
With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those return when you re-qualify.

Barring a reference in Rules Compendium, I believe Complete Warrior qualifies as "primary source" on what happens when you cease to qualify for a PrC, as it was published before Complete Arcane.

[Curmudgeon]

I can't seem to find it, but I was surethere was something in the Rules Compendium that clarified this.
I'm sure there's not, since that book doesn't have any rules about prestige classes.

Barring a reference in Rules Compendium, I believe Complete Warrior qualifies as "primary source" on what happens when you cease to qualify for a PrC, as it was published before Complete Arcane.
According to the official word on the matter, only the three core manuals are ever named as primary source books.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for prestige class rules. Since there's a prestige class in there (Dragon Disciple) which conflicts with both the Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane rules, the DMG is correct and the other books aren't allowed sway. Now there are only two ways you can resolve this conflict:

Those rules are stricken from the game, per the Primary Sources Errata rule.
Those rules have only local (to that book) scope, where they don't cause a disagreement.

There's also a replacement rule which would work exactly counter to your belief, but that only applies when there's something with the same name, and Complete Arcane's rule doesn't have a name. Apart from that, publication date doesn't matter a whit: it doesn't make any source more important than another.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I go with the latter interpretation as far as RAW is concerned - the "primary source" for what happens when you cease to qualify for a PrC is CWar/CArc, and neither are worded to imply they only hold for those books.

Let's put it this way - CWar has rules on heavy falling objects. Do those rules apply only to heavy objects from the CWar book, or to any heavy falling object?

That said, I'm of the opinion that strict-RAW is rarely the best way to play in practice, and that a good DM will make judgement calls. Some PrCs obviously don't make sense if you lose the requirements (RSoP who converts to Nerrul, for exaple). Some do make sense that way (Reaping Mauler under the effect of Enlarge Person). Really, this is part of what the DM's there for, and should be left to their discretion.

AFAIK the DMG is considered the primary source when dealing with Prg. Classes; but I see from where you are coming. And I completely agree with your other point, that some classes make sense to loose stuff if they can no longer qualify, primary Divine classes as they are granted those powers; but for others, mainly the martial classes, it just doesn't make sense from an IC perspective to me.



Which rule would you follow if you did want to apply this idea generally? The rules are substantially different:

You retain class features other than the column marked Special with the Complete Arcane rule (lose "all special abilities"), which means you retain all those Spells Known/Spells per Day features), but there is no recovery method stipulated to regain what you've lost, ever.
With the Complete Warrior rule you lose more (lose "the benefit of any class features or other special abilities"), but it's only the benefits that are gone rather than the abilities themselves, so those return when you re-qualify.


I have to admit that I haven't read those rules in detail and till now I didn't see that difference; but if I had to choose I would go with CWar ruling. Having said that what I would rule in those case would be:

If you no longer qualify for a prestige class for whatever reason, you keep all special abilities derived from the class including BAB, save and skill progression; but you cannot longer take levels on that class until you qualify again.

[Amphetryon]

Hidecarved Dragon, anyone? Has anyone found a way to finish it pre-epic yet, barring TO shenanigans?

[Rubik]

Anarchic initiate was designed to be a wilder PrC, but its prereqs are as follows:


Alignment: Any Chaotic.
Skills: Knowledge (Psionics) 8 ranks, Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks.
Special: Wild surge class feature or Overchannel feat.

Now, look at the wilder's skill list:


Class Skills
The wilder’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis* (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration* (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (psionics)* (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Psicraft* (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Notice what it DOESN'T have on there.

Yes, the custom-made 10-level wilder PrC is BETTER for a psion than a wilder, since the latter can't even enter it until 14th level and can't finish it out anywhere near pre-epic.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hidecarved Dragon, anyone? Has anyone found a way to finish it pre-epic yet, barring TO shenanigans?

Does Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold with chaos shuffle count as TO shenanigans? :smalltongue:

I think that doesn't count as IMO RAI never meant Hidecarved Dragon to be available for PC's; but if we count it, I definitely think it is one of the biggest contenders.

[deuxhero]

There is still debate whether those rules applies only Prg. Classes in such books (CWar and CArc IIRC) or if they are general rules that all prg. classes must follow, personally I am think it is the first one.

Or if it's an editing error because that was a 3E rule dropped in 3.5.

[Curmudgeon]

Or if it's an editing error because that was a 3E rule dropped in 3.5.
If it's not listed in the DMG Errata, it's (officially, anyway) not an error.

[sonofzeal]

According to the official word on the matter, only the three core manuals are ever named as primary source books.

They're listed as "examples" of primary sources. But I see what you mean about the replacement rule. I prefer the CW rule on a metagame level, for reasons already stated, but I'd be prepared to accept CArc as the one with RAW priority. I just don't think the argument that they only apply within their respective books holds any water; nothing in the wording suggests that, and nobody I know of applies the other rules of the game like that.

Again, there's the falling object damage table from CWar; normally DMG would be the primary source on environmental hazards like that, so is the CWar text null and void? Does it only apply to objects in that book?

[IdleMuse]

Tangentially, I think you can qualify for Fochulcan Lyrist with only paladin as your base class...

Harmonious Knight 4/War Chanter 5/Hoardstealer 1/Loredelver 3/Fochulcan Lyrist 7 seems to work, although you need Illumian cheese. Not great on a power level, but it's an interesting exercise.

[Thurbane]

Yes, the custom-made 10-level wilder PrC is BETTER for a psion than a wilder, since the latter can't even enter it until 14th level and can't finish it out anywhere near pre-epic.
Fiend-Blooded is similar - it's clearly intended as a Sorcerer prestige class, yet one of it's reqs is Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks, which isn't a Sorcerer skill. Sure, you can get around that with Knowledge Devotion, Planar Sorcerer sub levels and a few other ways, but it's an obvious oversight by the designer, since the sample characters don't even legally qualify.

It also has two fairly suboptimal feats (Blood Calls to Blood, Eschew Materials) as reqs. Eschew Materials is only ever useful if you've lost your spell component pouches somehow.

[SirFredgar]

I'm sure there's not, since that book doesn't have any rules about prestige classes.


Yep. It was actually in the FAQ, and it cites CWar's ruling.

What happens when an assassin becomes non-evil?
A character who no longer meets the requirements of his
prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class,
but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other
special abilities granted by the class.” (CW 16) You retain Hit
Dice (and the hit points derived from), base attack bonus, and
base save bonuses granted by the prestige class.
The rules don’t specifically list skill points (and class
skills) as falling into either category; the Sage recommends that
the character retain these functions even if he no longer meets
the class requirements.
So your repentant assassin would lose his sneak attack,
death attack, poison use, save bonus against poison, uncanny
dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and hide in plain sight class
features, as well as his assassin spellcasting and any weapon
and armor proficiencies gained from the class. He’d keep the
skill ranks he bought with his assassin levels, as well as the hit
points, base attack, and base save bonuses gained from those
class levels. He also couldn’t gain any more assassin levels
until his alignment returned to evil (at which point he’d also
regain the various features he lost when his alignment changed
to non-evil).

[dextercorvia]

Hidecarved Dragon, anyone? Has anyone found a way to finish it pre-epic yet, barring TO shenanigans?

I hope to have fallen just short of shenanigans in your eyes:

Kobold Cleric1/Archivist6/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/SacredExorcist1/HideCarvedDragon10

Domains: Planning, Plant

ACF: Destroy Undead

Feats
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
Flaw: Persistent Spell
Flaw: Divine Metamagic
1: Dragonwrought
3: Photosynthetic Skin
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6: INArmor
9: INArmor

Relevant Equipment: Reliquary Holy Symbol, Gleaming Scales Grafts X5

Prereq's:

Dragon Type -- Dragonwrought
LG Alignment
Natural Armor 1(Kobold)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+2(Improved Natural Armor)+5(Gleaming Scale Grafts)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
Base Will Save +2+5+2+2+2=+13

[Psyren]

I think Planar Sorcerer is a pretty flavorful entry into Fiend-blooded though and don't mind the oversight from that perspective.



They're listed as "examples" of primary sources. But I see what you mean about the replacement rule. I prefer the CW rule on a metagame level, for reasons already stated, but I'd be prepared to accept CArc as the one with RAW priority. I just don't think the argument that they only apply within their respective books holds any water; nothing in the wording suggests that, and nobody I know of applies the other rules of the game like that.

Again, there's the falling object damage table from CWar; normally DMG would be the primary source on environmental hazards like that, so is the CWar text null and void? Does it only apply to objects in that book?

Indeed; and according to PHB, there are only 11 base classes - are all the others in splats homebrew?

There's a tendency around here, especially by certain posters, to devote themselves far too slavishly to Primary Source.

EDIT: thanks Fredgar for the FAQ cite as well.

[Curmudgeon]

They're listed as "examples" of primary sources. But I see what you mean about the replacement rule. I prefer the CW rule on a metagame level, for reasons already stated, but I'd be prepared to accept CArc as the one with RAW priority. I just don't think the argument that they only apply within their respective books holds any water; nothing in the wording suggests that, and nobody I know of applies the other rules of the game like that.
Actually, that comes directly from the rules text in these books. From Complete Warrior Chapter 2: Prestige Classes:

THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASSES
These classes follow the format presented in the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
...
Most of these classes have combat-oriented requirements.
...
Meeting Class Requirements: It’s possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided. Since that Meeting Class Requirements is inside the section on THE MARTIAL PRESTIGE CLASSES, that's the context for the rule: it applies to the martial prestige classes. (It might also apply to other prestige classes labeled as martial prestige classes outside of Complete Warrior; I just don't know of any.)

The language surrounding the different rule in Complete Arcane is set up similarly:
This chapter presents nineteen prestige classes appropriate for arcane spellcasters and characters of other classes who wish to acquire arcane abilities. ... so the scope of that rule is those nineteen prestige classes.

[dextercorvia]

Can we take the old debate to a new thread please?

[olentu]

Can we take the old debate to a new thread please?

Well I am not invested enough to bother making a new thread but I will cease and desist in this one.

[Winds]

Archmage. Not as bad as some others, but take a look.

Skills: Know (Arcane) 15, Spellcraft 15. Both mechanically and flavor-fully, it makes sense that a class described as an ultimate caster needs to know things most couldn't normally learn. This is fine.
Feats: Spell Focus in two schools. Why? Spell Focus doesn't fit with the master of all feel intended. It's supposed to represent real dedication to that school. Worse is Skill Focus: Spellcraft. At 15 ranks, you can already identify all spells you could even see non-epic on take 10, and only rarely fail before then. So what good does this do?
Spells: Able to cast 7th level spells, knowledge of 5th level or higher from five schools. Painful, as it all but bars spontaneous casters, and requires that you be a real batman type either way.

[umbergod]

Archmage. Not as bad as some others, but take a look.

Skills: Know (Arcane) 15, Spellcraft 15. Both mechanically and flavor-fully, it makes sense that a class described as an ultimate caster needs to know things most couldn't normally learn. This is fine.
Feats: Spell Focus in two schools. Why? Spell Focus doesn't fit with the master of all feel intended. It's supposed to represent real dedication to that school. Worse is Skill Focus: Spellcraft. At 15 ranks, you can already identify all spells you could even see non-epic on take 10, and only rarely fail before then. So what good does this do?
Spells: Able to cast 7th level spells, knowledge of 5th level or higher from five schools. Painful, as it all but bars spontaneous casters, and requires that you be a real batman type either way.

AM isnt all that bad, a 1st lvl human wizard with 1 flaw meets the feat requirements right away. since its primarily meant for wizards, the skills are no biggie since youre gonna have a high int, and the spell level requirements are to make it accessed only past 10th level(without cheesy shenanigans), to show true arcane mastery.

[Amphetryon]

I hope to have fallen just short of shenanigans in your eyes:

Kobold Cleric1/Archivist6/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/SacredExorcist1/HideCarvedDragon10

Domains: Planning, Plant

ACF: Destroy Undead

Feats
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
Flaw: Persistent Spell
Flaw: Divine Metamagic
1: Dragonwrought
3: Photosynthetic Skin
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6: INArmor
9: INArmor

Relevant Equipment: Reliquary Holy Symbol, Gleaming Scales Grafts X5

Prereq's:

Dragon Type -- Dragonwrought
LG Alignment
Natural Armor 1(Kobold)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+2(Improved Natural Armor)+5(Gleaming Scale Grafts)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
Base Will Save +2+5+2+2+2=+13Nicely done. Probably too cheesy for many tables, but I'd be inclined to allow it at mine, just for chutzpah. Where's Photosynthetic Skin from?

Have a cookie. http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/cookie-ch.jpg

[gkathellar]

I hope to have fallen just short of shenanigans in your eyes:

Kobold Cleric1/Archivist6/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/SacredExorcist1/HideCarvedDragon10

Domains: Planning, Plant

ACF: Destroy Undead

Feats
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
Flaw: Persistent Spell
Flaw: Divine Metamagic
1: Dragonwrought
3: Photosynthetic Skin
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6: INArmor
9: INArmor

Relevant Equipment: Reliquary Holy Symbol, Gleaming Scales Grafts X5

Prereq's:

Dragon Type -- Dragonwrought
LG Alignment
Natural Armor 1(Kobold)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+2(Improved Natural Armor)+5(Gleaming Scale Grafts)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
Base Will Save +2+5+2+2+2=+13

Wait, but, you didn't finish it. Hidecarved is a 12-level class.

[sonofzeal]

Wait, but, you didn't finish it. Hidecarved is a 12-level class.
*shakes head*

Some men just want to watch the world burn, don't they? :smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

Wait, but, you didn't finish it. Hidecarved is a 12-level class.

It's still the earliest entry I can recall seeing without worshiping an Elder Evil as a White Dragonspawn Kobold while doing the Dark Chaos Shuffle.

[sonofzeal]

My totally unplayable attempt at Hidecarved:

Kobold Mineral Warrior (LA bought off) Generic Arcanist 1 / Cleric 1 / Generic Expert 2 / Generic Warrior 2 / Dragonfire Adept 2

Base Will Save
+2 from Arcanist
+2 from Cleric
+3 from Expert
+3 from Warrior
+2 from Dragonfire Adept
------
+12


Natural Armor
+1 from Kobold
+3 from Mineral Warrior
+2 from Dragonfire Adept
+2 from Photosynthetic Skin
+1 from Amulet of Natural Armor (2000 gp)
+1 from Stony Plating graft (2800 gp)
+2 from Plant Devotion
+8 from Improved Natural Armor




Did it at lvl 8, and without having to count persisted spells. =D

[dextercorvia]

Wait, but, you didn't finish it. Hidecarved is a 12-level class.

I'll try to do better. The web preview doesn't make that clear (although if I had read more carefully, I would have seen that it had an 11th level ability.

What book is it from?

@Amphetryon Photosynthetic skin is from UA.

[dextercorvia]

My totally unplayable attempt at Hidecarved:

Kobold Mineral Warrior (LA bought off) Generic Arcanist 1 / Cleric 1 / Generic Expert 2 / Generic Warrior 2 / Dragonfire Adept 2

Base Will Save
+2 from Arcanist
+2 from Cleric
+3 from Expert
+3 from Warrior
+2 from Dragonfire Adept
------
+12


Natural Armor
+1 from Kobold
+3 from Mineral Warrior
+2 from Dragonfire Adept
+2 from Photosynthetic Skin
+1 from Amulet of Natural Armor (2000 gp)
+1 from Stony Plating graft (2800 gp)
+2 from Plant Devotion
+8 from Improved Natural Armor




Did it at lvl 8, and without having to count persisted spells. =D

Kobold and DFA's NA don't stack. What book has Stony Plating graft?

[gkathellar]

What book is it from?

Draconomicon.


*shakes head*

Some men just want to watch the world burn, don't they? :smallbiggrin:

Eh. I find class-M planets make for good bathroom incense.

[Novawurmson]

It makes me a little happy to think that Pathfinder's skill system helps a lot of the "I need ___ ranks of this cross class skill!", but they don't have too much room to laugh. Most of their setting-specific feats are terrible.

Aldori Dueling Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/aldori-dueling-mastery):

Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (Aldori dueling sword), Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Aldori dueling sword).

And for that you get...+2 to initiative, 1-2 AC, and the weapon can be used as a piercing weapon.

Take improved initiative and wear a buckler :smallannoyed:

[gkathellar]

If you look up the specifics of the Aldori Dueling Sword, it becomes genuinely insulting.

[dextercorvia]

Fixed. My thanks to SoZ for reminding me of Mineral Warrior. Assuming LA buy-off. Using Phrenic to offset the mental deficiencies of Mineral Warrior.

Phrenic Mineral Warrior Kobold Cleric1/Archivist4/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/PargnosticApostle1/HideCarvedDragon12

Domains: Planning, Plant

Feats
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
Flaw: Persistent Spell
Flaw: Divine Metamagic
1: Dragonwrought
3: Photosynthetic Skin
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6: INArmor

Relevant Equipment: Gleaming Scales Grafts X3


Prereq's:

Dragon Type -- Dragonwrought
LG Alignment
Natural Armor 1(Kobold)+3(Mineral Warrior)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+1(Improved Natural Armor)+3(Gleaming Scale Grafts)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
Base Will Save +2+4+2+2+2=+12

[legomaster00156]

I would just like to mention the prerequisite for Mobility and Spring Attack. Dodge is utterly useless.

[Lucid]

I would just like to mention the prerequisite for Mobility and Spring Attack. Dodge is utterly useless. More useless than Mobility itself?
Any character I've played that had Mobility as a prereq for a Prc had enough ranks in Tumble to make AoO's a non-issue.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I like mobility to off set the attack bonus enemies gain when they attack you in Robilar's Gambit stance, if you run through many enemies you get a poor's man Paimon's Dance of Death. Though I agree it is quite a niche use.

[Qwertystop]

If you look up the specifics of the Aldori Dueling Sword, it becomes genuinely insulting.

What's it do?

[gkathellar]

What's it do?

It's a longsword with just martial weapon proficiency. But wait! Gasp! Did you know that if you take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori Dueling Sword) you, you, you can wield it with Weapon Finesse? Sweet merciful Pelor it's too powerful, WHAT HAVE THEY DONE?

[IdleMuse]

Fiend-Blooded is similar - it's clearly intended as a Sorcerer prestige class, yet one of it's reqs is Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks, which isn't a Sorcerer skill. Sure, you can get around that with Knowledge Devotion, Planar Sorcerer sub levels and a few other ways, but it's an obvious oversight by the designer, since the sample characters don't even legally qualify.

It also has two fairly suboptimal feats (Blood Calls to Blood, Eschew Materials) as reqs. Eschew Materials is only ever useful if you've lost your spell component pouches somehow.

I have a player in an upcoming WLD crawl who's playing a (lesser) Tiefling Beguiler/Fiend-Blooded, which seems almost ideal entry. I think the final build is Beguiler 5/Fiend-Blooded 10/Dread Witch 5, with the Fiendblooded Advanced Learnin's giving you the required spells for DW.

[Novawurmson]

It's a longsword with just martial weapon proficiency. But wait! Gasp! Did you know that if you take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori Dueling Sword) you, you, you can wield it with Weapon Finesse? Sweet merciful Pelor it's too powerful, WHAT HAVE THEY DONE?

::shakes head:: Power creep will kill Pathfinder.

/trollface.jpg

[sonofzeal]

Fixed. My thanks to SoZ for reminding me of Mineral Warrior. Assuming LA buy-off. Using Phrenic to offset the mental deficiencies of Mineral Warrior.

Phrenic Mineral Warrior Kobold Cleric1/Archivist4/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/PargnosticApostle1/HideCarvedDragon12

Domains: Planning, Plant

Feats
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
Flaw: Persistent Spell
Flaw: Divine Metamagic
1: Dragonwrought
3: Photosynthetic Skin
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6: INArmor

Relevant Equipment: Gleaming Scales Grafts X3


Prereq's:

Dragon Type -- Dragonwrought
LG Alignment
Natural Armor 1(Kobold)+3(Mineral Warrior)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+1(Improved Natural Armor)+3(Gleaming Scale Grafts)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
Base Will Save +2+4+2+2+2=+12
- You can't buy off 3 LA by lvl 8. Heck, you can't even have bought off the first point of it. :smallfrown:

- Gleaming Scales is a "New Style" graft. You can't apply multiple "New Style" grafts to the same body slot.

[sreservoir]

- You can't buy off 3 LA by lvl 8. Heck, you can't even have bought off the first point of it. :smallfrown:

- Gleaming Scales is a "New Style" graft. You can't apply multiple "New Style" grafts to the same body slot.

graft issues are still relevant, but I presume that it's entering at ECL 11, an dropping the three LA at ECL 11, 16, and 19.

[dextercorvia]

graft issues are still relevant, but I presume that it's entering at ECL 11, an dropping the three LA at ECL 11, 16, and 19.

That is correct.


- You can't buy off 3 LA by lvl 8. Heck, you can't even have bought off the first point of it. :smallfrown:

- Gleaming Scales is a "New Style" graft. You can't apply multiple "New Style" grafts to the same body slot.

Grafts aren't something I deal with a lot. I looked to see if you could do it or not, and didn't find it. I finally found it today. So that puts me down 2 points of Natural Armor. Let's try this instead...

Half-Dragon Human Cleric1/Archivist4/ChurchInquistor1/Ruathar1/PargnosticApostle1/HideCarvedDragon12

Domains: Planning, Plant

Feats
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Trade Plant Domain: Plant Devotion
Flaw: Persistent Spell
Flaw: Divine Metamagic
H:Improved Natural Armor
1: Improved Natural Armor
3: Photosynthetic Skin
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
6: Improved Natural Armor

Relevant Equipment: Gleaming Scales Graft


Prereq's:

Dragon Type -- Half Dragon
LG Alignment
Natural Armor +4(Half-Dragon)+2(Photosynthetic Skin)+3(Improved Natural Armor)+1(Gleaming Scale Graft)+2(Plant Devotion)+8(Persisted Bite of the Wereboar)=20
Base Will Save +2+4+2+2+2=+12

[Fax Celestis]

Yep. It was actually in the FAQ, and it cites CWar's ruling.

The hilarious part about this ruling is that if you enter assassin as a rogue, then change to an incompatible alignment, you lose all your sneak attack, not just your assassin sneak attack, since you only have one source of sneak attack that augments.

[Morithias]

Yathrinshee is worse.

Race: Drow
Gender: Female
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana and Religion) 7 ranks and Perform (Sing) 3 ranks
Feats: Lichloved and Spell Focus Necromancy
Spells: Animate Dead as a divine spell and Spectral Hand as an arcane hand.
Patron Deity: Kiaransalee

So you need 17 skill ranks, 2 feats, one that will be useless by the time you qualify for the class and another that will rarely come into play, a deity that no one has ever heard of and you have to stomach 2 LA on a theurge type class.

To be fair though. It's level 8 power is kickass. "Anything you kill rises as a zombie under your control" no hd limit no limits of anykind. Sneak up on a Great wyrm dragon and coup de grace it. Great Wyrm Dragon Zombie under your control.

[pffh]

The hilarious part about this ruling is that if you enter assassin as a rogue, then change to an incompatible alignment, you lose all your sneak attack, not just your assassin sneak attack, since you only have one source of sneak attack that augments.

Also you apparently can't ever be an Ur priest since you can't know divine spells.

[dextercorvia]

Also you apparently can't ever be an Ur priest since you can't know divine spells.

You can be one, you just give up your divine casting.

[Amphetryon]

You can be one, you just give up your divine casting.
An Ur Priest without any divine casting doesn't sound especially tempting as a career path, IMO. The second he enters it, a character gains divine casting, thereby forfeiting his right to be an Ur Priest, assuming you're supposed to continually check to see if you're in compliance with the prerequisites.

[Amphetryon]

The PrC specifically specifies that you cannot have divine casting when entering the class, and that if you do, you forever give it up. It does not, however, force you to give up divine casting gained after you start taking levels of the class. Ur-Priest does not disqualify itself, it's writers were halfway competent (with absolutely no sense of balance, but that's beside the point).That's the entire nature of the debate, actually. Some argue that the specific wording re: prestige class qualifications in Complete Warrior disqualifying you if you no longer meet the prerequisites after entry (cf. p16, under "Meeting Class Requirements") holds for all prestige classes, as it was never errata-ed. By the verbiage presented there and strictest possible adherence to the RAW, an Ur Priest is disqualified from being an Ur Priest the second he gains divine spells as a function of his class features. In the same way, a Dragon Disciple 10 goes into a state of permanent flux the moment Dragon Apotheosis is achieved disqualifying the character, who loses all benefits, thereby qualifying again, thereby becoming disqualified, etc.

[Venger]

Well, there's always pledging yourself to an Elder Evil. Five free, delicious, juicy feats. Tends to have consequences though.

As mentioned, those do have to be vile feats though, so you'll need to DCFS a few of them into actual good feats (although if you're building an NPC or something, or just don't care about wisdom due to steadfast determination or what have you, willing deformity (madness) is pretty awesome, giving immunity to all mind affecting effects.)



This still wins hands-down. Whoever got that published in Sandstorm is either the real life equivalent of a Gnome Trickster, or takes his hippopotami very seriously.
lol, glad you think so.



Ur-Priest requires Spell Focus: Evil, which in turn requires Evil alignment. Ur-Priests shouldn't be evil. Even if you steal divine energy from Tharizdun himself and kill Orcus with it, you are evil.

I agree. however, as sreservoir said, there's no mechanical obligation to remain evil since there's no section on "ex-ur-priests." motivation from taking power from gods can fall anyplace on the alignment spectrum depending on who you steal from and why. the defiant class from the planar handbook, for example has no alignment prereq.
mind, ur-priests don't have to stay evil. CD isn't one of the books that require you to maintain prereqs for prcs, iirc.

[legomaster00156]

It's a longsword with just martial weapon proficiency. But wait! Gasp! Did you know that if you take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori Dueling Sword) you, you, you can wield it with Weapon Finesse? Sweet merciful Pelor it's too powerful, WHAT HAVE THEY DONE?
It also has an x3 critical multiplier, just so you know.

[gkathellar]

It also has an x3 critical multiplier, just so you know.

No, it doesn't. From PFSRD (sword's statline is here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#exotic-one-handed)):


Benefit: An Aldori dueling sword may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori dueling sword), you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls with an Aldori dueling sword sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. You can also wield an Aldori dueling sword in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage.

[Zeta Kai]

I wouldn't say that it's the worst, but Horizon Walker has a single requirement that makes it very unattractive: 8 ranks in Knowledge (geography). To quote myself from another thread:


...Horizon Walker is awesome, but the Knowledge (geography) requirement is a pain to qualify for. It's gonna be a cross-class skill for just about anybody who would benefit the most from taking it. Who has Knowledge (geography) as a class skill in core? Bards, Rangers, & Wizards. Only to the Ranger would the trade-off possibly be worth it, & that's still not a sure thing. For everyone else, entry is denied until 13 level or later. Stupid class skill system is stupid.

[sreservoir]

I wouldn't say that it's the worst, but Horizon Walker has a single requirement that makes it very unattractive: 8 ranks in Knowledge (geography). To quote myself from another thread:

take a level of ranger at 1, and fill in the rest with 8 cross-class points? or take a level of ranger at 5, and dump all of the skill points in?

[Thurbane]

take a level of ranger at 1, and fill in the rest with 8 cross-class points? or take a level of ranger at 5, and dump all of the skill points in?
Knowledge (geography) is a not particularly useful skill, though, even though it fits thematically with the PrC. And 8 ranks seems a little much.

[Snowbluff]

About odd skill rank requirements. Keep in mind, either Human Paragon/Able Learner (IDR which, AFB) are laughing at you right now.

[sreservoir]

Knowledge (geography) is a not particularly useful skill, though, even though it fits thematically with the PrC. And 8 ranks seems a little much.

well, seeing as ranger 3 would get you the endurance feat horizon walker wants, I'd imaging the intent was for HW to be primarily a ranger prc; rangers can probably spare the skill points, even if it isn't very useful to them. and lots of prcs have reqs which work only fluffwise. dimension door is probably a lot cooler than whatever skill you would have used those points on anyway, so.

nicely enough, ranger 3 leaves exactly two levels before entering horizon walker.

[Thurbane]

About odd skill rank requirements. Keep in mind, either Human Paragon/Able Learner (IDR which, AFB) are laughing at you right now.
Yes, Human Paragon and/or Factotum Dip/Able Learner get around skill reqs quite handily - but they also may not fit with your character concept, or cost you levels in another class that you really want or need.

Also, two of those options are Human only, so they can be a little restrictive.

[Snowbluff]

Yes, Human Paragon and/or Factotum Dip/Able Learner get around skill reqs quite handily - but they also may not fit with your character concept, or cost you levels in another class that you really want or need.

Also, two of those options are Human only, so they can be a little restrictive.

Human is the opposite of restrictive. Whats wrong with skills and feats to meat trick prereqs? Unless you have a race restricted class, in which case you have more problems then you want to admit.

Human Paragon gives 2/3 casting progression, custom class skills, gives trailing class skills (Or is that Able Learner), ability points, and another feat. If you would have to do something much more obtuse to get into the class otherwise, this is the best option.

Medium BAB.

In other news, I might have Human Paragon memorized without ever using it.

[sreservoir]

Human is the opposite of restrictive. Whats wrong with skills and feats to meat trick prereqs? Unless you have a race restricted class, in which case you have more problems then you want to admit.

Human Paragon gives 2/3 casting progression, custom class skills, gives trailing class skills (Or is that Able Learner), ability points, and another feat. If you would have to do something much more obtuse to get into the class otherwise, this is the best option.

Medium BAB.

In other news, I might have Human Paragon memorized without ever using it.

human is restrictive compared to no restrictions. sometimes, you need something other than human to qualify for things! or maybe you want something a feat won't get you!

[Snowbluff]

human is restrictive compared to no restrictions. sometimes, you need something other than human to qualify for things! or maybe you want something a feat won't get you!

Point taken. I say buy a template, and shucks to your "racial traits". :smallyuk:
My class features/feats fu will best your racial fu! :smallbiggrin:

[Leon]

Master of Shrouds: Augment Summoning for a PrC that specializes in summoning incorporeal creatures that don't use either stats to which bonuses are provided by the feat.

[Rubik]

Human is the opposite of restrictive. Whats wrong with skills and feats to meat trick prereqs?Won't someone please think of the vegetarians!!!

[Snowbluff]

Won't someone please think of the vegetarians!!!

HEY! I like my meat-based prereqs! :smallwink:

[Venger]

HEY! I like my meat-based prereqs! :smallwink:

anyone else thinking of a cooking-based campaign now? if nothing else, it'd give people a reason to be able to make a D20 profession (chef) check to detect ingested poison snuck into food.

[Rubik]

anyone else thinking of a cooking-based campaign now? if nothing else, it'd give people a reason to be able to make a D20 profession (chef) check to detect ingested poison snuck into food.Calzone golems! Gelatinous JellO cubes!

Gives a new meaning to the term 'meat shield'.

[Silva Stormrage]

Master of Shrouds: Augment Summoning for a PrC that specializes in summoning incorporeal creatures that don't use either stats to which bonuses are provided by the feat.

Ya that never made sense to me. I always swapped that with corpse crafter... At least they gain some benefit from that one >.>

[Steward]

Some prerequisites just seem like obstacles to discourage absolutely everyone from dipping into the prestige class. "Hold on, I have to have Toughness, Maximize Spell, Far Shot, Mobility, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, AND Vow of Poverty, and then I have to defeat a flamingo using solely nonlethal damage?"

[Silva Stormrage]

Some prerequisites just seem like obstacles to discourage absolutely everyone from dipping into the prestige class. "Hold on, I have to have Toughness, Maximize Spell, Far Shot, Mobility, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, AND Vow of Poverty, and then I have to defeat a flamingo using solely nonlethal damage?"

:smallconfused: Don't all your characters meet those prerequisites. Mine all do.


:smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

:smallconfused: Don't all your characters meet those prerequisites. Mine all do.


:smallbiggrin:
I lol'd. epic profane lifeleech avatar, btw. who did that for you? it looks awesome.


Calzone golems! Gelatinous JellO cubes!

Gives a new meaning to the term 'meat shield'.
heehee. wouldn't that be fun?

[Silva Stormrage]

I lol'd. epic profane lifeleech avatar, btw. who did that for you? it looks awesome.


Szilard made it. He is really good at them :smallbiggrin:

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

6 pages and no mention?

I should have /threaded this thing with my Prerequisite and Early Entry Handboo

[DoctorGlock]

Didn't some FR book mention being able to meet racial prereqs using a few skill points in knowledge local or something similar?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not for racial pre-requesites, for [regional] feats you could take 2 (I think) skill ranks in say Knowledge Local (Rashemen) and be able to take feats from that region like Battle Jump; but sadly Player's Guide to Faerûn (I think) overuled that and because it is a 3.5 update it takes precedence.

[DoctorGlock]

Not for racial pre-requesites, for [regional] feats you could take 2 (I think) skill ranks in say Knowledge Local (Rashemen) and be able to take feats from that region like Battle Jump; but sadly Player's Guide to Faerûn (I think) overuled that and because it is a 3.5 update it takes precedence.

Oh, that sucks. So much for quick fixes. Racial/setting specific prereqs suck in general.

[Qwertystop]

Not for racial pre-requesites, for [regional] feats you could take 2 (I think) skill ranks in say Knowledge Local (Rashemen) and be able to take feats from that region like Battle Jump; but sadly Player's Guide to Faerûn (I think) overuled that and because it is a 3.5 update it takes precedence.

I didn't realize there were subcategories of Knowledge (Local). I thought Local was the subcategory?

It makes no sense, but isn't that how it works?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think that division was exclusively for the realms. Besides it was in 3.0

[Dr.Epic]

Rage Mage

Because if it rhymes, it was to be a great PrC!:smallwink:

[Venger]

I didn't realize there were subcategories of Knowledge (Local). I thought Local was the subcategory?

It makes no sense, but isn't that how it works?

there were in 3.0, you'd need knowledge (local) (thay) or wherever. in 3.5, you just need knowledge (local) and it'll work wherever you are, even somewhere you've never been before. it indeed makes no sense, but it's a lot more logical from a game design perspective. why would a player buy ranks in knowledge for 1 community when so much of the game assumes you'll travel around? short answer is they wouldn't, so make local useful or everywhere.

[Red_Dog]

I am sorry if someone already posted this one but => I loath Ur-Priest Pre-reqs... The way I read it => you need 32 skill points spent across 5 class skills, Iron Will & SpellFocus[Evil] & base +3 Fort/Will

I know a surefire way to kick ass with it [Savage bard=>Ur=>Theurge], but...

One of my players loved an Ur-Priest Concept. But since he was new, I didn't want to hand him virtually the single most powerful character in current party and tell him to go to town... So I was trying to find a balanced Ur-Priest entry...

Since being a fallen cleric is terribly crippling beyond reason, and Dual Bard-Cleric is Terrifying, finding middle ground lead me to THIS permutation=>

Marshal 5/Ur-Priest 5 ... as a *Drum roll* Jaebrin(p.92 in MMV)... They get a Spell Craft as class skill and other stuff. It took me 4 hours at least to make this combo... Result was actually surprisingly in exact middle of a power curve
Other way included same but Human with Skill Knowledge for the blasted Spell Craft, a Monk/warlock(or Able Factotum) permutation, Dusk Blade & i forget but some kind of outsider... End rant. ^^

[Venger]

I am sorry if someone already posted this one but => I loath Ur-Priest Pre-reqs... The way I read it => you need 32 skill points spent across 5 class skills, Iron Will & SpellFocus[Evil] & base +3 Fort/Will

I know a surefire way to kick ass with it [Savage bard=>Ur=>Theurge], but...

One of my players loved an Ur-Priest Concept. But since he was new, I didn't want to hand him virtually the single most powerful character in current party and tell him to go to town... So I was trying to find a balanced Ur-Priest entry...

Since being a fallen cleric is terribly crippling beyond reason, and Dual Bard-Cleric is Terrifying, finding middle ground lead me to THIS permutation=>

Marshal 5/Ur-Priest 5 ... as a *Drum roll* Jaebrin(p.92 in MMV)... They get a Spell Craft as class skill and other stuff. It took me 4 hours at least to make this combo... Result was actually surprisingly in exact middle of a power curve
Other way included same but Human with Skill Knowledge for the blasted Spell Craft, a Monk/warlock(or Able Factotum) permutation, Dusk Blade & i forget but some kind of outsider... End rant. ^^

I like entering as a human monk2/swashbuckler3. you have almost all the salient skills and keeper of the forbidden lore takes care of the rest. monk gives your wis to AC from now on (and stunning fist if anyone gets too close) swashbuckler lets you dump str for those early levels where you're a mere mortal and makes it easier for you to land a hit on someone with your mitts, and it frees up more points for int so you can enjoy insightful strike making your punches hurt more (natural weapons = light weapons) and give you plenty of skill points to fulfill the ridiculous prereqs for UP. when you're done, it'll look something like:
monk2/swash3/ur-priest10/hierophant5
season to taste, serve with wine, though it's one of the least cheesy uses of ur-priest (it even finishes the class)

[Red_Dog]

monk2/swash3/ur-priest10/hierophant5


Good build, but as usual => Where is spell-craft coming from? Needs to be Human and Burn feat Skill Knowledge [Spell Craft]. Otherwise solid balanced Ur-Priest that won't send a DM into blind rage ^^

Spell Craft btw was a single most annoying thing that good potential candidates just didn't have. Warlock had EVERYTHING, but didn't have a fort save >_>, Dusk-blade didn't have Bluff (fighter[thung] could solve that I guess)

[dextercorvia]

Good build, but as usual => Where is spell-craft coming from? Needs to be Human and Burn feat Skill Knowledge [Spell Craft]. Otherwise solid balanced Ur-Priest that won't send a DM into blind rage ^^

Spell Craft btw was a single most annoying thing that good potential candidates just didn't have. Warlock had EVERYTHING, but didn't have a fort save >_>, Dusk-blade didn't have Bluff (fighter[thung] could solve that I guess)

I believe Keeper of the Forbidden Lore, but I'm not positive.

Warlock5/Mindbender1 gets you the fort save.

[peacenlove]

In Book of Vile Darkness, Boost Spell Resistance.
Does what it says on the tin, +2 SR.
Prerequisites: any EVIL alignment :smallsigh:
Because only the blackest of souls would sport such demented fantasies of increasing this most unholy defense. :smallannoyed:

[nyarlathotep]

there were in 3.0, you'd need knowledge (local) (thay) or wherever. in 3.5, you just need knowledge (local) and it'll work wherever you are, even somewhere you've never been before. it indeed makes no sense, but it's a lot more logical from a game design perspective. why would a player buy ranks in knowledge for 1 community when so much of the game assumes you'll travel around? short answer is they wouldn't, so make local useful or everywhere.

In 3.5 it's supposed to reflect how quickly you are able to absorb new knowledge about a location and how good you are about finding out things. I really think that should be rolled into gather information but then again if I designed 3.5 a lot of things would have been different.

[Red_Dog]

I believe Keeper of the Forbidden Lore, but I'm not positive.

Warlock5/Mindbender1 gets you the fort save.

My bad, But that still means you need to be Human ... >_> Not that I hate humans. I love them, but it gets boring for characters some times ^^

Also => Mindbender combo is lvl 6... Was trying to get in by lvl 5. ^^

To Peacenlove=> don't you know, resisting wizards is a capital offense? = P

[Venger]

Good build, but as usual => Where is spell-craft coming from? Needs to be Human and Burn feat Skill Knowledge [Spell Craft]. Otherwise solid balanced Ur-Priest that won't send a DM into blind rage ^^

Spell Craft btw was a single most annoying thing that good potential candidates just didn't have. Warlock had EVERYTHING, but didn't have a fort save >_>, Dusk-blade didn't have Bluff (fighter[thung] could solve that I guess)

keeper of forbidden lore makes spellcraft and know(planes) class skills from now on (in addition to giving a +1 bonus on checks from now on, but you cast divine spells, so don't care about spellcraft, and aren't really specced for summoning, so don't care about planes, stupid prereqs), and is also an abyssal heritor feat, so you can legitimately DCFS is off yourself once you hit level 13. (legitimately since you're using shun the dark chaos for its intended purpose, to get rid of abyssal heritor feats, and also you're paying the xp cost yourself)