Antie-paladin!?!

[Thugorp]

So, this is more of a pole than anything.

Who do you guys think the real Anti-paladin is, Black guard, or Assassin?

[lord pringle]

A Paladin of tyrannny/slaughter

[enderlord99]

Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter is the anti-paladin, but from the same book (UA) the Prestige Paladin has a blackguard as its opposite.

[umbergod]

A Paladin of tyrannny/slaughter

this. Though I wonder, are there rules stating you can't turn in paladin of tyranny/slaughter levels for blackguard levels or can you?

[lord pringle]

this. Though I wonder, are there rules stating you can't turn in paladin of tyranny/slaughter levels for blackguard levels or can you?

Since you're still a paladin I think you're totally allowed to.

[umbergod]

Since you're still a paladin I think you're totally allowed to.

that could be funny. Though I still think the ultimate evil knight villain would be a rogue1/blackguard10/shadowbane inquisitor9

[Bovine Colonel]

Pathfinder actually has an Antipaladin class.

[Ksheep]

Auntie-Paladin? That would be this:
http://cf.mp-cdn.net/05/40/2c3e75597d6ae93b148fa0a66a4a.jpg

Wait, you said Anti-Paladin! I'd have to go with Tyranny/Slaughter.

[Thugorp]

Wow, I am surprised, when those first came out EVERYONE thought they were ridiculousness due to the alignment requirements on Palis. Wow... wait though... if they are still paladins, are they really Antipaladins? wouldn't either the blackguard or the Assassin still be antipaladins since slaughter/tierenty are technically palalis?

[lord pringle]

Wow, I am surprised, when those first came out EVERYONE thought they were ridiculousness due to the alignment requirements on Palis. Wow... wait though... if they are still paladins, are they really Antipaladins? wouldn't either the blackguard or the Assassin still be antipaladins since slaughter/tierenty are technically palalis?

Yes but instead of being powered by good they're powered by baby killing and anthill-boiling. That's the opposite of a paladin if you ask me.

[enderlord99]

Since you're still a paladin I think you're totally allowed to.

That could make the strongest gestalt character ever:

"I level up as a Tyranny-Pally//Blackguard, but then I exchange that for twice the level, as a Blackguard, though without any gestalt in it"

:smalleek:

[Killer Angel]

Yes but instead of being powered by good they're powered by baby killing and anthill-boiling. That's the opposite of a paladin if you ask me.

Yep, but a paladin serves a cause. A Paladin of slaughter serves an evil cause, and it's an evil paladin.
A blackguard is a paladin that failed its cause, so (IMO) it's more "anti". The corrupted good is more wicked that the pure evil.

[umbergod]

Yep, but a paladin serves a cause. A Paladin of slaughter serves an evil cause, and it's an evil paladin.
A blackguard is a paladin that failed its cause, so (IMO) it's more "anti". The corrupted good is more wicked that the pure evil.

now youre just arguing semantics. tyranny/slaughter have class abilities that are opposites of the traditional paladin, so in effect, they're the anti paladin

[gallagher]

Auntie-Paladin? That would be this:
http://cf.mp-cdn.net/05/40/2c3e75597d6ae93b148fa0a66a4a.jpg

Wait, you said Anti-Paladin! I'd have to go with Tyranny/Slaughter.
auntie paladin is from hell, so she has levels in blackguard

[Ravens_cry]

Whoh, nelly, and you thought a normal paladin had a restrictive code. Paladin of Slaughter is just, wow. Basically it's locked into puppy eating, chaotic stupid, card carrying, Evil League of Evil Evilness . . .of Evil, behavior or they lose their abilities.
Such a restrictive code is rather ironic for a being that is supposed to be the embodiment of Chaotic Evil.
Were the designers trying to send a message about the nature of evil or were they just being lazy? My money is on the latter.

[Killer Angel]

now youre just arguing semantics. tyranny/slaughter have class abilities that are opposites of the traditional paladin, so in effect, they're the anti paladin

Of course I'm arguing (:smallsmile:), but still, the Blackguard was the original anti-paladin.
You can only argue if some evil paladin class is better in this role than the original blackguard.

[umbergod]

Of course I'm arguing (:smallsmile:), but still, the Blackguard was the original anti-paladin.
You can only argue if some evil paladin class is better in this role than the original blackguard.

original? like the 3.0 or 3.5? either of the evil paladins are better than the blackguard. dumping points into hide for blackguard sucks :P

[Thugorp]

I have to admit i am confused what makes them better than blackguard?

[umbergod]

I have to admit i am confused what makes them better than blackguard?

not having to either take a level of a class that has hide as a class skill, or dumping points into hide as a cross class comes to mind. that and the sneak attack the blackguard gets is just silly and oddly placed

[Thugorp]

The BlackGuard gets sneek attack? are you sure your not thinking of the Assassin?

[Coidzor]

A blackguard is a paladin that failed its cause, so (IMO) it's more "anti". The corrupted good is more wicked that the pure evil.

Not really. That's something that has to be determined on a case by case basis.

Ur-Priest is more of an Anti-Paladin, since it is both powerful and evil-leaning. Whereas ye olde Paladin is good and weaksauce.

[umbergod]

The BlackGuard gets sneek attack? are you sure your not thinking of the Assassin?

at 4th 7th and 10th lvl the blackguard gets +1d6 sneak attack, for a total of +3d6

[Othniel Edden]

Auntie-Paladin? That would be this:
http://cf.mp-cdn.net/05/40/2c3e75597d6ae93b148fa0a66a4a.jpg
I saw Auntie as well at first but then I started hoping for an Ante-Paladin, focused on gambling via Poker and other betting games. :smallbigsmile

[umbergod]

I saw Auntie as well at first but then I started hoping for an Ante-Paladin, focused on gambling via Poker and other betting games. :smallbigsmile

that made me giggle +1 internets for you sir

[The Dark Fiddler]

Well, the true anti-paladin would be a SAD class with a d6 HD, good reflex and will saves but bad fortitude save, poor base attack bonus, 6 skill points per level, and an alignment requirement of chaotic evil.

Cloistered cleric fulfills the SAD-ness, HD size, BAB, skill points, and has good will saves, so the closes I can think of is a cloistered cleric worshiping a CE god. Though, perhaps incarnate is closer? Don't have my copy of MoI on hand.

[Taelas]

... how do you arrive at Chaotic Neutral? Most of the rest sort of makes sense, but that one is just baffling.

[Crasical]

:smallyuk: One of the guys in my group -still- thinks antipaladins are the funniest thing ever. He always makes jokes about 'anti-thieves' with 'move noisily' 'plant evidence' and 'hide in plain sight' as class abilities.

He's also surprised by the fact that 'DnD has a Barbarian class now?' and 'Skill points? Back when I played thieves just had a table that told you what you could do.'

[The Dark Fiddler]

... how do you arrive at Chaotic Neutral? Most of the rest sort of makes sense, but that one is just baffling.

By not rereading what I've typed.


:smallyuk: One of the guys in my group -still- thinks antipaladins are the funniest thing ever. He always makes jokes about 'anti-thieves' with 'move noisily' 'plant evidence' and 'hide in plain sight' as class abilities.

And... is he aware that hide in plain sight is actually an ability? :smallconfused:

[Crasical]

And... is he aware that hide in plain sight is actually an ability? :smallconfused:

Nope. He's struggling with the concept of 'skill points' and 'evasion', I don't need to be dropping stuff on him he won't see for a dozen levels.

[Wardog]

Whoh, nelly, and you thought a normal paladin had a restrictive code. Paladin of Slaughter is just, wow. Basically it's locked into puppy eating, chaotic stupid, card carrying, Evil League of Evil Evilness . . .of Evil, behavior or they lose their abilities.
Such a restrictive code is rather ironic for a being that is supposed to be the embodiment of Chaotic Evil.
Were the designers trying to send a message about the nature of evil or were they just being lazy? My money is on the latter.

Is that better or worse than the Paladin of Freedom, who, if I recall correctly, by RAW falls if he ever tells the truth or keeps his word?

[Coidzor]

He's also surprised by the fact that 'DnD has a Barbarian class now?' and 'Skill points? Back when I played thieves just had a table that told you what you could do.'

15 minutes (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) an internet connection? (http://www.d20srd.org/) :smallconfused:

[herrhauptmann]

Well, the true anti-paladin would be a SAD class with a d6 HD, good reflex and will saves but bad fortitude save, poor base attack bonus, 6 skill points per level, and an alignment requirement of chaotic evil.

Cloistered cleric fulfills the SAD-ness, HD size, BAB, skill points, and has good will saves, so the closes I can think of is a cloistered cleric worshiping a CE god. Though, perhaps incarnate is closer? Don't have my copy of MoI on hand.
Nevermind that "anti-paladin" I think might've been introduced by Weis and Hickman for Dragonlance. The Knights of Takhisis. (My old copy of The Second Generation had a 2nd edition baseclass for the antipaladin) The LE Knights: Code of conduct, sense of brotherhood, and a personal role in the her conquests besides "I'm an evil bad guy LOL!"
So by that standard, I'd say the LE Paladin variant is the best "anti-paladin."
If you're just looking at the code of conducts, there's very little difference between the adventuring LG and LE paladins once you take away the lawful stupid actions and restriction on who they can be with.
If you're looking at the code of conduct, the CE paladin variant is the best anti-paladin.
I'd say to avoid things like game mechanics when determining "who's the best anti-paladin," otherwise you'll end up looking for someone with a good reflex and will save, poor BAB and HD. Rather than looking at the things that actually make a paladin a paladin.


:smallyuk: One of the guys in my group -still- thinks antipaladins are the funniest thing ever. He always makes jokes about 'anti-thieves' with 'move noisily' 'plant evidence' and 'hide in plain sight' as class abilities.

He's also surprised by the fact that 'DnD has a Barbarian class now?' and 'Skill points? Back when I played thieves just had a table that told you what you could do.'

Maybe "stand around in plain sight"?
Also, is your friend still stuck in 2nd edition? Seems odd that he'd go this long without knowing anything about the last 11 years of D&D.

[Daftendirekt]

that could be funny. Though I still think the ultimate evil knight villain would be a rogue1/blackguard10/shadowbane inquisitor9

:smallconfused: Shadowbane Inquisitor isn't evil. ShadowBANE.

[erikun]

Wow, I am surprised, when those first came out EVERYONE thought they were ridiculousness due to the alignment requirements on Palis. Wow... wait though... if they are still paladins, are they really Antipaladins? wouldn't either the blackguard or the Assassin still be antipaladins since slaughter/tierenty are technically palalis?
So we're judging how "anti-paladin" a class is based on how much they are not like a paladin? Low HP, low BAB, no alignment restrictions, very few listed abilities, and good in melee?

Wouldn't that be the Wizard? :smalltongue:

[umbergod]

:smallconfused: Shadowbane Inquisitor isn't evil. ShadowBANE.

go read again son. if they fall, they keep all their abilities, and count as paladin levels for the purpose of turning paladin levels into blackguard levels. it even mentions that a fallen shadowbane inquisitor is a terrible thing to face b/c they believe that they are in righteous and justified in all of their actions.

[Killer Angel]

original? like the 3.0 or 3.5? either of the evil paladins are better than the blackguard. dumping points into hide for blackguard sucks :P

Yes. In the "basic print" (PHB and the DMG) of the various editions (3.0 and 3.5), the paladin is the champion of good, and the blakguard is the fallen paladin, now champion of evil.
I agree that the mechanics of the blackguard are... suboptimal, to be nice, but I'm talking 'bout fluff, and in this regard, the Blakguard is the original anti-pally.

[umbergod]

Yes. In the "basic print" (PHB and the DMG) of the various editions (3.0 and 3.5), the paladin is the champion of good, and the blakguard is the fallen paladin, now champion of evil.
I agree that the mechanics of the blackguard are... suboptimal, to be nice, but I'm talking 'bout fluff, and in this regard, the Blakguard is the original anti-pally.

:P I read your original post wrong, saying that the blackguard was the original and best anti paladin XD yay for 30+ hours with no sleep. Reading fail on my part, and yes, you are correct. I still think the hide/sneak attack requirements/ability could be switched to something more befitting of an dark champion of all that is evil

[motoko's ghost]

Ante:paladin
for when your playing poker with your party members as the stakes.:smalltongue:

[Killer Angel]

:P I read your original post wrong, saying that the blackguard was the original and best anti paladin XD yay for 30+ hours with no sleep. Reading fail on my part, and yes, you are correct. I still think the hide/sneak attack requirements/ability could be switched to something more befitting of an dark champion of all that is evil

Mistakes happen. For example, why on earth I wrote blakguard (and not blackguard) twice?!? :smalltongue:

And yeah, the hide/sneak attack thing, is just bad.

[umbergod]

Mistakes happen. For example, why on earth I wrote blakguard (and not blackguard) twice?!? :smalltongue:

And yeah, the hide/sneak attack thing, is just bad.

i could see it being decent in some sort of rogue/fighter/assassin/blackguard build based on popping out of stealth or invisibility and FUBARing someone, but as is, not very good mechanically. fitting fluff wise, since as the original anti paladin concept, they have no honor and think nothing of attacking someone when their guard is down.

[enderlord99]

go read again son. if they fall, they keep all their abilities, and count as paladin levels for the purpose of turning paladin levels into blackguard levels. it even mentions that a fallen shadowbane inquisitor is a terrible thing to face b/c they believe that they are in righteous and justified in all of their actions.

Miko was a shadowbane inquisitor?:smalltongue:

[umbergod]

Miko was a shadowbane inquisitor?:smalltongue:

who? :P drawing a blank when it comes to that name

[Yuki Akuma]

who? :P drawing a blank when it comes to that name

Do you not read the comic this forum is attached to?

[umbergod]

Do you not read the comic this forum is attached to?

no, not really. I've read a few of them but not enough to even remember any of the names of the characters

[Ravens_cry]

Is that better or worse than the Paladin of Freedom, who, if I recall correctly, by RAW falls if he ever tells the truth or keeps his word?

No, actually, they don't, at least by my reading of the code (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures).

[Tyndmyr]

The Antie-paladin is anyone with at least ten ranks in Profession(Gambling) and a deck of poker cards.

[VanBuren]

So we're judging how "anti-paladin" a class is based on how much they are not like a paladin? Low HP, low BAB, no alignment restrictions, very few listed abilities, and good in melee?

Wouldn't that be the Wizard? :smalltongue:

See, I think an anti-paladin should be an evil counterpart. Something that greatly resembles a paladin, but with fundamental differences. In terms of flavor and mechanics, I don't think it should be something greatly stronger or weaker than its cousin, but that really doesn't leave us with a lot to work with.

At a bare minimum all of the "good" abilities need to be replaced with "evil" counterparts and a "code" that effectively permits anything as long as it serves a dark purpose. To that end, I think the alignment restriction should be to Evil with no regard for the Law/Chaos axis.

[enderlord99]

See, I think an anti-paladin should be an evil counterpart. Something that greatly resembles a paladin, but with fundamental differences. In terms of flavor and mechanics, I don't think it should be something greatly stronger or weaker than its cousin, but that really doesn't leave us with a lot to work with.

At a bare minimum all of the "good" abilities need to be replaced with "evil" counterparts and a "code" that effectively permits anything as long as it serves a dark purpose. To that end, I think the alignment restriction should be to Evil with no regard for the Law/Chaos axis.

Sounds like a blackguard to me.:smallsmile:

[Knaight]

Sounds like a blackguard to me.:smallsmile:

The blackguard is built on a fallen paladin who used to be good however, which is counterproductive.

[umbergod]

The blackguard is built on a fallen paladin who used to be good however, which is counterproductive.

you don't HAVE to be a fallen paladin though, rogue/fighter meets the requirements easily

[VanBuren]

Sounds like a blackguard to me.:smallsmile:

Right, but as a base class.

[Kish]

The blackguard is built on a fallen paladin who used to be good however,
No, it's not. They put in a few "this is a way a fallen paladin's ex-paladin levels can be slightly more than complete deadweight, though you'll still be weaker than if you didn't have paladin levels" rules, and people all over the Internet parse it into "being a fallen paladin is one of the requirements for the class." :smallsigh:

[smasher0404]

A Chaotic Evil Bard
Divine is the opposite of arcane magically
opposing alignment
same bab
Both want Charisma
seems pretty good as an opposite

[Othniel Edden]

In some ways I'd say barbarian is the opposite. Much of the code is about self restraint, Barbarians tap into not restraining a dangerous, and have a great deal of moral freedom. In many ways barbarian's seem to be pre-morality, and for some even pre-law.

[umbergod]

In some ways I'd say barbarian is the opposite. Much of the code is about self restraint, Barbarians tap into not restraining a dangerous, and have a great deal of moral freedom. In many ways barbarian's seem to be pre-morality, and for some even pre-law.

but a barbarian isn't always evil. opposite in the sense of law/rules vs chaos/freedom, yes, but anti paladin, no.

[Urpriest]

but a barbarian isn't always evil. opposite in the sense of law/rules vs chaos/freedom, yes, but anti paladin, no.

A Paladin isn't always good. They can also be a Paladin of Tyranny, or Slaughter. Or Freedom for that matter. A proper Anti-Paladin should be an opposite to all of the above, and thus should be restricted to NG, NE, LN, CN, or N...so we're talking Druid or Incarnate, maybe?

[umbergod]

A Paladin isn't always good. They can also be a Paladin of Tyranny, or Slaughter. Or Freedom for that matter. A proper Anti-Paladin should be an opposite to all of the above, and thus should be restricted to NG, NE, LN, CN, or N...so we're talking Druid or Incarnate, maybe?

Believe the topic of discussion is the embodiment of what is the "anti" of the core paladin. an "anti"-paladin of slaughter would be a friggin paladin

[Urpriest]

Believe the topic of discussion is the embodiment of what is the "anti" of the core paladin. an "anti"-paladin of slaughter would be a friggin paladin

I hardly think we should be limited by the OP's preconceptions, especially those not stated in the OP. The guy didn't even know Blackguards got sneak attack after all.

[umbergod]

I hardly think we should be limited by the OP's preconceptions, especially those not stated in the OP. The guy didn't even know Blackguards got sneak attack after all.

while this is true, the fundamental aspect of the question is whats more anti paladin and i would say core paladin vs paladin of slaughter for opposites. anything else brought in is just extra XD

[Othniel Edden]

but a barbarian isn't always evil. opposite in the sense of law/rules vs chaos/freedom, yes, but anti paladin, no.
Barbarians are morally flexible, which is something Paladins cannot be... I don't think always chaotic evil should be requirement here. The Paladin code ties them to a morality and a complex view of society. Barbarians only have their conscience and their elders (depending on societial structure) as their guide. Oath to Hearth and Home could be all that guides. Conventional thinking tells me otherwise but I like unconventional things, don't you?

[umbergod]

Barbarians are morally flexible, which is something Paladins cannot be... I don't think always chaotic evil should be requirement here. The Paladin code ties them to a morality and a complex view of society. Barbarians only have their conscience and their elders (depending on societial structure) as their guide. Oath to Hearth and Home could be all that guides. Conventional thinking tells me otherwise but I like unconventional things, don't you?

I can't and won't deny that they barbarian has the potential to be built as a good anti paladin, but it isn't made to be one by design, like the Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny or Blackguard is.

[Knaight]

No, it's not. They put in a few "this is a way a fallen paladin's ex-paladin levels can be slightly more than complete deadweight, though you'll still be weaker than if you didn't have paladin levels" rules, and people all over the Internet parse it into "being a fallen paladin is one of the requirements for the class." :smallsigh:

It's not a requirement, but they were overtly putting that out there as the primary archetype.

[Crasical]

15 minutes (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html) and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) an internet connection? (http://www.d20srd.org/) :smallconfused:

He has no internet, no cell phone, his computer is just -barely- powerful enough to run X-Com. He's perversely proud of his luddite ways, even when it worries the rest of us sick like when a huge firestorm swept through the neighborhood he lives in and we didn't have a way to call him.

[Siosilvar]

The anti-paladin is whoever puts their mind to it.

If you made me pick a class, Knight, Crusader, or Incarnate.

[VanBuren]

Whoh, nelly, and you thought a normal paladin had a restrictive code. Paladin of Slaughter is just, wow. Basically it's locked into puppy eating, chaotic stupid, card carrying, Evil League of Evil Evilness . . .of Evil, behavior or they lose their abilities.
Such a restrictive code is rather ironic for a being that is supposed to be the embodiment of Chaotic Evil.
Were the designers trying to send a message about the nature of evil or were they just being lazy? My money is on the latter.

It's a secret test of character. A true CE Paladin of Slaughter wouldn't let himself be bound by a petty code of conduct. Thus, whoever follows the restrictions falls, and whoever blatantly disregards them as they see fit gets to keep their powers.

...

At least, that'd be cool.

[Wardog]

No, actually, they don't, at least by my reading of the code (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures).

AH, my mistake. I must have remembered it wrong (or got it confused with some other class. Or both).

[Ravens_cry]

It's a secret test of character. A true CE Paladin of Slaughter wouldn't let himself be bound by a petty code of conduct. Thus, whoever follows the restrictions falls, and whoever blatantly disregards them as they see fit gets to keep their powers.

...

At least, that'd be cool.
Houserule™ Changing the Game . . . One Rule at a Time®

Houserule™ is not for everyone, ask your DM if Houserule™ is right for your group.