At Will Healing

[Silva Stormrage]

Hello, well in one of my campaigns that I am running a PC has died. While normal he was the parties healer. So the player is looking for a class that has access to unlimited out of combat healing.

Notes: Right now until the new pc shows up the party is using wands of cure light wounds but they HATE to use consumables so they really don't want to keep using this. Plus with d12 maximized HD they have to use a LARGE chuck of the charges to heal.

They don't all want to be tomb tainted and dread necromancer.

Cleric is banned due to the setting. Other divine casters are fine.

I believe there is a trick that allows dragon shamans to use their aura to heal to full health instead of half?

I believe warlocks have a healing eldritch blast but not sure on this either.

Thanks for your help.

[Little Brother]

Shadow Syn Ninja have an ability that does this.

[Randomguy]

You could make a custom magic item of unlimited cure minor wounds. Just use it a couple hundred times between each combat. Or make it one of cure light wounds, to save some time.

EDIT: Oh, and lessor vigor heals more than cure light wounds does, so if you're using wands then one of lessor vigor would be better. And if you all worship the same deity, then a wand of faith healing would work.

[Silva Stormrage]

I pointed out wands of lesser vigor but those take A LONG time to actually heal. 1 hp a round for 100 hp is 10 minutes. I could make a custom magic item for that but I would rather not.


Thanks for the shadow sun ninja I had forgot about that class.

[Wyntonian]

I have a gut sense that there's a reserve feat for this sort of thing... can't think what it is, though, sorry.

[Silva Stormrage]

No thats actually a great help. I think thats the trick with dragon shaman. Will look through them now.

[Jack_Simth]

Hello, well in one of my campaigns that I am running a PC has died. While normal he was the parties healer. So the player is looking for a class that has access to unlimited out of combat healing.

Notes: Right now until the new pc shows up the party is using wands of cure light wounds but they HATE to use consumables so they really don't want to keep using this. Plus with d12 maximized HD they have to use a LARGE chuck of the charges to heal.

They don't all want to be tomb tainted and dread necromancer.

Cleric is banned due to the setting. Other divine casters are fine.

I believe there is a trick that allows dragon shamans to use their aura to heal to full health instead of half?

I believe warlocks have a healing eldritch blast but not sure on this either.

Thanks for your help.

There's a number of ways, part of which depends on what level you're playing at, and what all is permitted.

Summon Elemental (Complete Mage) + a vampiric weapon (property from the magic item compendium) + Speak Language (Auran, Aquan, Terran, or Ignan) = unlimited out of combat healing... that's not very nice (order the pop-up elemental target to not defend itself, hand the weapon to the injured person, and have the injured person attack the pop-up elemental target). Lots of pain & suffering for summoned critters that are minimally intelligent.

Cleric is out, so DMM(Persistent Spell) (Mass Lesser Vigor) is rather difficult to pull off (doable, though - you basically just need to find a non-Cleric source of turn attempts).

The Dragon Shaman's Vigor aura, or the Touch of Healing Reserve Feat (Complete Champion), can be made to heal people to about 75% without too much hassle - just make sure everyone has a +Con item... and if you have a non-cursed -Con item, that's useful, too. Heal someone up to half, have them reduce their max HP by removing their +Con items (and donning a -Con item, if available), then heal them up to half again, and switch them back to their +Con items. Take, say, the example of a barbarian-10, with maximized d12 hit dice, a pre-magic Con of 16, a +6 Amulet of Constitution, and a -6 Amulet of Constitution, knocked down to 1 HP:
Step 1: Heal barbarian up to half of his current maximum (+6 Con modifier, 10th level, maxed out hit dice, so he's got a maximum, currently, of 180 HP; this puts him at 90 HP).
Have him remove the +6 Amulet of Constitution, and he drops 30 HP off his max and current, putting him at a max of 150 and a current of 60. Have him put on the noncursed -6 amulet of constitution, and he drops to a max of 120 and a current of 30.
Heal him up to half (60 hp of 120),
Remove the -6 amulet of constitution, putting him at 90 of 150.
Add the +6 amulet of constitution, putting him at 120 of 180.

The Shadow Sun Ninja (Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords) has the ability to hit something for negative energy damage (or healing, vs. undead) one round, and hit someone for positive energy healing (or damage, vs. undead) in the same amount the next. This can make for uncapped healing (hit the ground for negative energy damage, hit your buddy for positive energy healing).

You could also make a command-word widget of cure minor wounds. By guidelines, this would cost 900 gp market price (1,800 command word, * 0.5 spell level, * 1 caster level - this assumes it is slotted appropriately), and would let you heal someone in your party by 1 hp/round when not in battle.

[Little Brother]

Also, Summon Elemental+(Idiot)Crusader would work.

EDIT: Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment(DLCS Sun Domain) gives you TU, so you can imitate a DMM cleric with Persisted Mass Lesser Vigor.

[FMArthur]

The Buer vestige for the Binder class is a really easy source of infinite healing. That's just how the vestige works, no tricks involved.

[Mezmote]

Edit: Swordsaged by 1 minute =)

1 level of Dragon shaman gets you fast healing 1 for the whole team (max 50% of their total HP).

5 level of binder with the improved binding feat (7 levels without) grants you the ability to bind Buer, with at will healing + fast healing for yourself so you heal while tending the others. It might seem like a big investment of levels just for free healing. The extra bonus of being immune and auto curing poisons and diseases is just awesome.

Going any further into binder won't improve your healing output (but will increase your personal fast healing) though it will allow the player to do other things than just heal. With the ability to bind a second and third vestige, he'll be able to support many different roles while still auto healing.

[maximus25]

You could make a magic trap on something, let's say a sheath, that whenever you draw or sheathe your weapon it casts cure light/critical/etc wounds. Boom, unlimited healing.

[Thurbane]

Going any further into binder won't improve your healing output (but will increase your personal fast healing) though it will allow the player to do other things than just heal. With the ability to bind a second and third vestige, he'll be able to support many different roles while still auto healing.
Yeah, level 8+ really is the sweet spot for Binders. Until then, you can only bind one vestige at a time, and 90% of the fun of being a Binder (IMHO) is the ability to mix and match multiple vestiges to give yourself a unique set of powers for the day.

[Silva Stormrage]

Wow thats a lot more ways then I thought of unlimited out of combat healing. I will show him some and see what he thinks. Thanks for your help guys :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

Ranger 1 or paladin 1 with more wands of CLW than you'll ever need? It costs a little gold but it allows for a lot more build flexibility, as you have all the healing you'll ever need, and 90% of anything else in the world you want.

[Fouredged Sword]

A truenamer (yeah yeah... I know) with the utterance that can restore broken magic items + potion of a cure spell as high of level possible.

[Thurbane]

Is a consumed potion actually broken? I'm not sure of the exact wording of the Truenamer ability, but...

[Psyren]

Incarnates can with Lifebond Vestments, but before level 16 must wait an hour between ministrations for each patient. If enough people need healing though, they can match the healing output of a Binder with Buer before they get the chakra bind; once they get their Heart bind, they can outheal anyone short of actual casters.



I believe warlocks have a healing eldritch blast but not sure on this either.


Eldritch Disciples do, but there are caveats: you have to be CN or CG, and it's powered by TU attempts so you are limited by those.


A truenamer (yeah yeah... I know) with the utterance that can restore broken magic items + potion of a cure spell as high of level possible.

They also have an actual healing utterance. In both cases, your healing output is limited only by the Laws.


Is a consumed potion actually broken? I'm not sure of the exact wording of the Truenamer ability, but...

It's debatable, but if your casters make Spell Tiles (CArc pgs. 137-138) instead of liquid potions then there is no gray area here to worry about.

[Slipperychicken]

The Martial Spirit stance (ToB 60) gives you healing only limited by how often you can hit things, healing one hit point with every successful melee attack. Carry around a punching bag, hit the ground, whatever. Can be acquired either through Crusader1, or the Martial Stance feat (which only requires a single maneuver).

Glimmerskins (MM2) have the ability to heal any creature they touch or bond to (5hp/round), and its services can be acquired for for payment/mind control/diplomancy/etc.

[Endarire]

Do the Crusader Hoedown.

Crusader + Martial Spirit + kicking ants/rocks/the ground = fully healthy group!

[Gavinfoxx]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1121

Just read this. Healing isn't something a player character needs to focus on...

[Crasical]

You could make a magic trap on something, let's say a sheath, that whenever you draw or sheathe your weapon it casts cure light/critical/etc wounds. Boom, unlimited healing.

*Squints* .... That's a masturbation joke, isn't it? :smallmad:

[maximus25]

*Squints* .... That's a masturbation joke, isn't it? :smallmad:

No? You could take it that way, if you're a pervert I guess, but it's not meant to be.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Artificer also has a way of setting spells to trigger, including curing spells.

Also, if the party were constructs, it's fairly trivial to get Repair x Damage spells from the arcane side of things...

Warlock has a cute unlimited healing trick, but it's not Healing Blast, which requires turn attempts to use, and it requires a cohort. Basically, cohort is also at least a level 1 Warlock, and uses a buff invocation. Then you use Transform Magic from Enlightened Spirit to convert it into healing.

[sreservoir]

Incarnates can with Lifebond Vestments, but before level 16 must wait an hour between ministrations for each patient. If enough people need healing though, they can match the healing output of a Binder with Buer before they get the chakra bind; once they get their Heart bind, they can outheal anyone short of actual casters.

does it outheal zceryll binders summoning leonals to lay for 114, heal for 100, then CCW three times for 4d8+10 (average 28) each, for 298 every five rounds with only one action expended? this can come online at 17 with the right feats, just one level after incarnates get the heart chakra, so.

for that matter, binders also get avorals off the SMVII list (14 or 13) to lay for 66, and bralani off SMVI (12 or 11) to CSW twice for 3d8+6 (average 19.5).


It's debatable, but if your casters make Spell Tiles (CArc pgs. 137-138) instead of liquid potions then there is no gray area here to worry about.

or skull talismans from frostburn, which can even go up to 9ths.

[SaintRidley]

If nobody's alignment is prohibitive, have everybody get tomb-tainted all up in their souls and make yourself a dread necromancer. Then touch everybody between combats.

[Silva Stormrage]

Artificer also has a way of setting spells to trigger, including curing spells.

Also, if the party were constructs, it's fairly trivial to get Repair x Damage spells from the arcane side of things...

Warlock has a cute unlimited healing trick, but it's not Healing Blast, which requires turn attempts to use, and it requires a cohort. Basically, cohort is also at least a level 1 Warlock, and uses a buff invocation. Then you use Transform Magic from Enlightened Spirit to convert it into healing.

I am not familiar with transform magic or enlightened spirt? Where are they from?

[sreservoir]

If nobody's alignment is prohibitive, have everybody get tomb-tainted all up in their souls and make yourself a dread necromancer. Then touch everybody between combats.



They don't all want to be tomb tainted and dread necromancer.


not a solution.

[SaintRidley]

not a solution.

Darn, missed that part.

I'm out of useful ideas.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am not familiar with transform magic or enlightened spirt? Where are they from?

Complete Mage. Enlightened Spirit is an otherwise sub-par PrC for Warlocks which does not advance spellcasting, and so invocations, making it really bad for warlocks.

However, they get an invocation as a class ability called Transform Magic. It's a Greater Dispel Magic that heals either yourself or a target a number of hit points depending on the spell level of the spell dispelled.

Now it doesn't work on your own invocations, it explicitly excludes them. However, if you have a cohort or another party member who is a warlock... infinite healing.

[Psyren]

does it outheal zceryll binders summoning leonals to lay for 114, heal for 100, then CCW three times for 4d8+10 (average 28) each, for 298 every five rounds with only one action expended? this can come online at 17 with the right feats, just one level after incarnates get the heart chakra, so.

I was actually comparing Lifebond to Buer, but since you ask: at 17, Incarnates can use Share Soulmeld to heal for 460 hp every 5 rounds, or 92/round. Subtract a round for self-healing and you still have have 368 every 5 rounds.

[Morph Bark]

Binder with Stigmata and Naberius.

Shadow Sun Ninja if at least one party member has Tomb-Tainted Soul or undead are available. I had this in my last party with a SSN and a Dread Necromancer. It was glorious.

[Socratov]

You could make a magic trap on something, let's say a sheath, that whenever you draw or sheathe your weapon it casts cure light/critical/etc wounds. Boom, unlimited healing.

this with gnommisch quickrazor == unlimited healing per round (draw and sheathe the quickrazor for a free action, unlimited free actions per round==never dieing)

else, get a bard who has healing hymn as a feat (complete champ), since a bard has access to healing spells he can now double the healing granted from healingspells. Also, if he keeps healing hymn up for 1 minute before resting, the whole party recovers double their healing rate. allready mentioned but dragonshaman and palladin work well too (just get an insane chascore) with their respective touch of vigor and lay on hands...

[Leon]

I have a gut sense that there's a reserve feat for this sort of thing... can't think what it is, though, sorry.

Touch of Healing (Complete Champion) Heals upto half of a targets total health (@3pts per level of highest healing spell available - so a 3rd lvl spell will heal 9 per standard action)





http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1121

Just read this. Healing isn't something a player character needs to focus on...

Its one line of thought but not the absolute way things can be done, some people like to play healers.

[Darrin]

There's also the Hellreaver PrC from Fiendish Codex II. When you go into a Holy Fury, you gain a number of Holy Fury points equal to class level + Cha modifier. As a swift action, you can spend 1 holy fury point to heal 10 HP to yourself or any ally within 20'. This is intended to be only used in combat, but presumably someone with a Summon Elemental reserve feat could provide an unlimited supply of "enemies".

[sreservoir]

I was actually comparing Lifebond to Buer, but since you ask: at 17, Incarnates can use Share Soulmeld to heal for 460 hp every 5 rounds, or 92/round. Subtract a round for self-healing and you still have have 368 every 5 rounds.

hm. if we take favored vestige (zceryll) and rapid recovery (which, considering just how powerful zceryll is, isn't necessarily a terrible idea), that brings us up to that 298 every four rounds, so 1490 in 20 rounds. buer gives 1d8+10 every five rounds, so 58 every 20 rounds. then FH 4, so another 80, though those have to go to self. that puts us at 81.4 per round.

yeah, I guess the incarnate wins. although now I'm curious, how does the lifebond vestments healing work?

[Psyren]

yeah, I guess the incarnate wins. although now I'm curious, how does the lifebond vestments healing work?

I'll explain:

The soulmeld itself heals HP = MSL, +5/essentia invested; half of that damage goes to you. However, you can only use this on a given person 1/hour until you get the Heart Bind (which lets you heal at-will.)

Incarnates get their heart bind at 16. At this point, the natural essentia cap on your soulmelds is 3. Their expanded soulmeld capacity class feature adds 2 more to that, for 5, and the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat adds one more for a total of 6. Thus, each use heals 46 hp. (5*6=30; 30+16 = 46).

A one-level dip gets you a familiar or animal companion, with whom you can share the soulmeld for another 46. Hence my figure of 92/round.

Oh, and the self-damage isn't a problem - in addition to the round burned self-healing, you can also shape a Vitality Belt (and share that too) for a hefty HP buffer until the party is tended to.

You can also shape a Strongheart Vest and use Stigmata, though this is much slower.



Zceryll is of course far more powerful (in a general sense) for various other reasons. Though Incarnates get a nice boost once they get Gate :smallsmile:

[DrDeth]

Clearly the DM has some limitations on things (like no clerics”) so really, there is no way to get unlimited healing by playing both within RAI & RAW.

Yes, there is Dragon Shaman & the Touch of healing, both of which do allow unlimited healing up to 50%. Pretty much all the other tricks are just that- tricks that depend upon the DM putting up with such donkey-stuff as hitting the ground, etc. Mind you, those are all interesting theoretical exercises, but no sane DM will allow any of them.

[Demons_eye]

Clearly the DM has some limitations on things (like no clerics”) so really, there is no way to get unlimited healing by playing both within RAI & RAW.

Yes, there is Dragon Shaman & the Touch of healing, both of which do allow unlimited healing up to 50%. Pretty much all the other tricks are just that- tricks that depend upon the DM putting up with such donkey-stuff as hitting the ground, etc. Mind you, those are all interesting theoretical exercises, but no sane DM will allow any of them.

Buer is straight forward. Used her with three DM's who, while are a bit imbalanced, are sane.

[Kalegkos]

If you are thinking in Core ways, you can also try a Druid with augment healing feat, and with a summoned Unicorn for some extra heal is a great way in my opinion. Also the utility druid spells rock. Not the best healer though.

[Slipperychicken]

Wrathful Healing enhancement (+3, enemies and allies pg. 20). Whenever you hit creatures, wielder heals half the damage dealt. Great in-combat, works with summoned creatures too. I think you can take -4 to do nonlethal damage, and still get the healing, eliminating moral conflicts. It is positive energy, so be warned.

[Thurbane]

Binder with Stigmata and Naberius.
Unfortunately, you can't use Naberius to heal the Con damage from Stigmata:

When you use this ability, the wounds on your body bleed in proportion to the Constitution damage you take. The bleeding persists for 1 hour, and the Constitution damage cannot be restored by any means until the bleeding has stopped. Once the bleeding has stopped, you can freely activate the stigmata again, whether or not you have recovered your lost Constitution, as long as you have enough Constitution left to use the ability and survive.

[fryplink]

If you are just against using consumables, then look into Eternal Wands and Healing Belts since they recharge.

Also, Druids and Wizards/Sorcs can summon a wonderful array of creatures, some of which get healing spells at-will, or significantly more times per day than a cleric would get at the same level. Obviously this depends on level, because the Summon Monster/Natures ally line of spells has limitations, though a binding doesn't.

Obligatory healing trap post.
Obligatory artificer post.

[Morph Bark]

Unfortunately, you can't use Naberius to heal the Con damage from Stigmata:

Sure you can. You just need to wait for one hour. It may not be continuous at-will healing, but it is more at-will than most such things.

[sreservoir]

Sure you can. You just need to wait for one hour. It may not be continuous at-will healing, but it is more at-will than most such things.

if you went bard, you'd only have to wait eight hours and fifteen minutes between each set of heals!


Clearly the DM has some limitations on things (like no clerics”) so really, there is no way to get unlimited healing by playing both within RAI & RAW.

Yes, there is Dragon Shaman & the Touch of healing, both of which do allow unlimited healing up to 50%. Pretty much all the other tricks are just that- tricks that depend upon the DM putting up with such donkey-stuff as hitting the ground, etc. Mind you, those are all interesting theoretical exercises, but no sane DM will allow any of them.

... see, at least buer's intent is pretty much arguable only by insane troll logic by the design of the binder class; the incarnum one, too, uses "tricks" only to increase output, not to enable at-will healing.

at-will healing doesn't break anything. it doesn't, for instance, refresh spell slots, so it actually helps non-casters more than casters, so.

[DrDeth]

True, after combat full healing up isn’t broken, in fact I have had DM’s just say that “You all heal up before the next combat”. I am afraid that Incarnum and Binders are some things that no-one I know plays with, but they are RAW, I agree.

[sreservoir]

somewhat obscure, perhaps, but mind that core is basically the least balanced part of 3e.

[Thurbane]

Sure you can. You just need to wait for one hour. It may not be continuous at-will healing, but it is more at-will than most such things.
Fair point.

[candycorn]

Zceryll, at level 14, allows the summoning of Avorals. At this point, you can heal 66 hp, every 5 rounds. Unfortunately, you can't apply Augment Summoning to the summon, which would increase it to 80 hp every 5 rounds. Reducing it to every 4 rounds gives a net of 16.5 hp / round.

At level 16, this increases to an average of two avorals, which allows an average of 33 hp / round.

At 18th level, you could do 1d4+1 avorals, but there's also a leonal, which offers 114 hp / 4 rounds from lay on hands, with 3 cure critical spells (CL 10), and a heal spell (also CL 10).

This yields, over 5 rounds, a total healing of 114 + 84 (cure crit average) + 100 (heal spell), or 298 hp per leonal.

While the healing is spread over 5 rounds, your summons are every 4, which means your healing pattern is thus:

{table]Creature | Round 1 | Round 2 | Round 3 | Round 4 | Round 5 | Round 6 | Round 7 | Round 8 | Round 9 | Round 10 | Round 11
Leonal 1 | Heal 114 | Heal 100 | Heal 28 | Heal 28 | Heal 28 |
Leonal 2 |||||Heal 114 | Heal 100 | Heal 28 | Heal 28 | Heal 28 |
Leonal 3 |||||||||Heal 114 | Heal 100 | Heal 28
Total | Heal 114 | Heal 100 | Heal 28 | Heal 28 | Heal 142 | Heal 100 | Heal 28 | Heal 28 | Heal 142 | Heal 100 | Heal 28[/table]
Bolded section is the sustainable pattern. For the first 4 rounds, you average 67.5 healing per round. Afterwards, you average 74.5 healing per round. That would get a party in fighting form fairly quickly, as well as offer guards after the first few rounds, to assist in covering the party while they heal.

[sreservoir]

except that you can only summon one creature at a time, both by RAW ("You can summon any creature" and it draws from those lists, but doesn't not actually duplicate the spell -- also makes it standard action by RAW afaict!) and by RAI (by designer response, it should imitate SM, including action, except that only one creature at a time).

[Silva Stormrage]

except that you can only summon one creature at a time, both by RAW ("You can summon any creature" and it draws from those lists, but doesn't not actually duplicate the spell -- also makes it standard action by RAW afaict!) and by RAI (by designer response, it should imitate SM, including action, except that only one creature at a time).

Wait explain that one to me? Where does it say that the Binder's summon monster can only summon one at a time?

Also, I AM the dm. He just doesn't have an account and asked me to post this for him. I allow most things. Except some of the ones involving crusader's beating on allies with non lethal damage because that just seems silly. (Might allow it though just for the joke of him holding a "healing shiv". The player reads 8 bit theatre too so he would get the reference)

[Psyren]

Wait explain that one to me? Where does it say that the Binder's summon monster can only summon one at a time?

It's pretty explicit. You get 1 monster from the SM list per use, not the actual SM spell itself.


Summon Alien: You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon. Any creature you summon with this ability gains the pseudonatural template. Thus, at 10th level you could summon any creature from the summon monster I-V list. When you reach 14th level, you can summon any creature from the summon monster I-VII list.

[Silva Stormrage]

It's pretty explicit. You get 1 monster from the SM list per use, not the actual SM spell itself.

Ah got that. Sorry I thought he was saying only one summon monster spell active at a time.

[candycorn]

It's pretty explicit. You get 1 monster from the SM list per use, not the actual SM spell itself.

True...

But that opens a better benefit. It's no longer duplicating a Full-Round action spell. It's an independent summon ability which happens to borrow from the summon list, and uses different rules regarding the summons.

That means that the summon is now a standard action...
and, if you really want to get technical, has no listed duration.

In addition, if any sorceror in your multiverse at your level has the ability to summon a creature that is on the list (say, one has a scroll of summon monster 9), then so can you. Because it just requires that the monster be on the list, and that a sorceror of your level be able to summon it via a normal summon monster casting. Heck, if there's a demon sorceror of your level that happens to be able to racially summon a Bone devil, then congratulations.

[Silva Stormrage]

True...

But that opens a better benefit. It's no longer duplicating a Full-Round action spell. It's an independent summon ability which happens to borrow from the summon list, and uses different rules regarding the summons.

That means that the summon is now a standard action...
and, if you really want to get technical, has no listed duration.

In addition, if any sorceror in your multiverse at your level has the ability to summon a creature that is on the list (say, one has a scroll of summon monster 9), then so can you. Because it just requires that the monster be on the list, and that a sorceror of your level be able to summon it via a normal summon monster casting. Heck, if there's a demon sorceror of your level that happens to be able to racially summon a Bone devil, then congratulations.

Something tells me the second part is never allowed by dm's. I wouldn't allow it definitely.

[Psyren]

That means that the summon is now a standard action...
and, if you really want to get technical, has no listed duration.

Yes to the first one. The second could go either way; the general rule is as follows:



Tome of Magic pg. 19:
"Some of the supernatural abilities granted by vestiges provide constant benefits once activated. If the duration of a particular effect is not stated or implied by the ability description, assume it is constant.
...
If a supernatural ability granted by a vestige mimics the effect of a spell or shadow magic mystery, the caster level of that ability is always equal to the Binder's effective binder level."

For most DMs, the italicization of "summon monster" in Zceryll's ability would serve as an implication that the summoning duration should follow the rules for that spell except as otherwise stated, at which point your Binder level would determine the duration due to the second clause. Whether they rule this way or not, the use of "imply" leaves it to the DM to decide without having to invoke Rule 0.

Note also that Zceryll has another advantage, i.e. creatures she gives you cannot be dispelled/disjoined, due to being supernatural. This is powerful enough on its own that a DM would be unlikely to grant more concessions.


In addition, if any sorceror in your multiverse at your level has the ability to summon a creature that is on the list (say, one has a scroll of summon monster 9), then so can you. Because it just requires that the monster be on the list, and that a sorceror of your level be able to summon it via a normal summon monster casting. Heck, if there's a demon sorceror of your level that happens to be able to racially summon a Bone devil, then congratulations.

I get what you're saying but attempting an end run around the level limits of the ability really isn't necessary.

However, what you do get access to are alternate and expanded summoning lists. For instance, FC2 lets you summon various abishai, or swap giant wasps for spined devils when casting SM4 etc, and BoED lets you summon Coure Eladrin with SMIII etc. A Zceryll Binder would get access to all of these lists, so long as the creatures gained thereby can be pseudonatural.

[Wings of Peace]

If you want to take the cheesey road combine Warforged with the racial feat Improved Resiliency then spam the Martial Spirit maneuver. Just strike yourself over and over for non-lethal damage.

[Gorfnod]

Ranger 1 or paladin 1 with more wands of CLW than you'll ever need? It costs a little gold but it allows for a lot more build flexibility, as you have all the healing you'll ever need, and 90% of anything else in the world you want.

Not exactly helpful to the OP but I believe that you need Ranger or Paladin 4 in order to use wands. You aren't actually a spellcaster until then.

[Tyndmyr]

I believe warlocks have a healing eldritch blast but not sure on this either.

Thanks for your help.

This is a thing, yes. It's currently being used in one of my groups, and it's not a massive amount of healing...but it's ranged healing, and it's infinite. So, more useful for really terrible in-combat situations than vanilla cures, and everything else can wait till after combat anyhow.

Alternatively, there's a healing reserve feat, I believe. That transforms any healing class into an indefinite healer.

Alternatively, the summoning reserve feat and a vampiric weapon. Hand it to the injured fellow, and have him beat down elementals until full up.

[Psyren]

This is a thing, yes. It's currently being used in one of my groups, and it's not a massive amount of healing...but it's ranged healing, and it's infinite

It's not actually infinite - you have to spend TU attempts.


You can spend one of your turn/rebuke undead attempts as a swift action to activate the chosen power.

[Tyndmyr]

My bad. He's got that and the reserve feat(theurging it up), so I mixed the two up.

[Psyren]

Actually, there might be a trick here - the Gifts have no set duration, nor does Healing Blast say something like "on your next eldritch blast." You simply change your entire blast into a healing blast. Theoretically, it could stay that way until the next time you try to fire a normal one, i.e. by applying a different essence.

It could earn a flying DMG, but it would make you an excellent healer in exchange for sacrificing your offense.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, there might be a trick here - the Gifts have no set duration, nor does Healing Blast say something like "on your next eldritch blast." You simply change your entire blast into a healing blast. Theoretically, it could stay that way until the next time you try to fire a normal one, i.e. by applying a different essence.

It could earn a flying DMG, but it would make you an excellent healer in exchange for sacrificing your offense.

Huh. I'd allow it. But then, I stick fairly close to RAW. Burn through turning attempts slower, but switching from offense to defense is costly....sure.

It's not like Warlock with a cleric dip is overpowered as opposed to...cleric.

[Silva Stormrage]

Actually, there might be a trick here - the Gifts have no set duration, nor does Healing Blast say something like "on your next eldritch blast." You simply change your entire blast into a healing blast. Theoretically, it could stay that way until the next time you try to fire a normal one, i.e. by applying a different essence.

It could earn a flying DMG, but it would make you an excellent healer in exchange for sacrificing your offense.

Hm, I will talk to him about that actually. He was actually looking at playing an Warlock/Ur Priest Theurge in another campaign.

[Psyren]

Hm, I will talk to him about that actually. He was actually looking at playing an Warlock/Ur Priest Theurge in another campaign.

Ur-Priest is no good - for Healing Blast, you cannot be evil.

If you want 9ths as a non-evil Eldritch Disciple, give Divine Crusader a look. You'll get much less spells, but the right domain can compensate for that (e.g. Spell.)

[Wyntonian]

Not exactly helpful to the OP but I believe that you need Ranger or Paladin 4 in order to use wands. You aren't actually a spellcaster until then.

Not exactly. You need a UMD check to use wands that aren't on your spell list. CLW is on a ranger's spell list, even if they can't cast the spell itself. It's a valid use of the wand.

[Silva Stormrage]

Ur-Priest is no good - for Healing Blast, you cannot be evil.

If you want 9ths as a non-evil Eldritch Disciple, give Divine Crusader a look. You'll get much less spells, but the right domain can compensate for that (e.g. Spell.)

No its still fine. In my setting Ur Priests can be any alignment, (I hate alignment requirements for the most part >.>)

[Thurbane]

Not exactly helpful to the OP but I believe that you need Ranger or Paladin 4 in order to use wands. You aren't actually a spellcaster until then.

Not exactly. You need a UMD check to use wands that aren't on your spell list. CLW is on a ranger's spell list, even if they can't cast the spell itself. It's a valid use of the wand.
Yep, Rangers, Paladins, Hexblades etc. who don't actually have casting at lower levels can freely use a wand of any spell on their list without needing UMD. Even the oft questionable FAQ backs this up.

[Psyren]

Another trick with Eldritch Disciple; the Gifts are supernatural, which means so is the healing blast Gift (since it explicitly replaces your eldritch blast entirely.) This will allow you to heal your allies through their spell resistance/immunity (something very few healers can do) and also nuke undead even if they are resistant or immune to magic.

Even better: Corrupting Blast also replaces your Eldritch Blast, giving you an offensive blast that ignores SR too.

The downside to both is that you can't apply essences to either of them, and you'll need TU attempts to switch between them.


The ED's other gifts are also supernatural, e.g. Fearful Glare, their Magic Circle, and Wild Frenzy. These therefore cannot be dispelled and do not provoke.

[Demon of Death]

Actually, there might be a trick here - the Gifts have no set duration, nor does Healing Blast say something like "on your next eldritch blast." You simply change your entire blast into a healing blast. Theoretically, it could stay that way until the next time you try to fire a normal one, i.e. by applying a different essence.

It could earn a flying DMG, but it would make you an excellent healer in exchange for sacrificing your offense.

Honestly Psyren, I have to say, that reading of the ability is just awesome, makes the class look so much more appealing as a healerlock.

I'm going to bring it up with my DM the next time I play a warlock.

[Fouredged Sword]

I wonder how that reading would interact with things like glavelocks. They do their eldrich blast damage, but through other abilities.

In theory those abilities would still deal normal damage, leaving eldrich blast stuck on healing.

[candycorn]

For most DMs, the italicization of "summon monster" in Zceryll's ability would serve as an implication that the summoning duration should follow the rules for that spell except as otherwise stated, at which point your Binder level would determine the duration due to the second clause. Whether they rule this way or not, the use of "imply" leaves it to the DM to decide without having to invoke Rule 0.Actually, that's still rule 0. It's creating a limitation that's not laid out in the rules. It might not be arbitrary, but it's still Rule 0.

That said, it either is a Summon Monster spell, or it's not. Since it doesn't mention that it functions as or like summon monster, it's not. It doesn't even reference a specific summon monster spell. It references all of them as a group, and only to define what creatures can be chosen. It makes no reference whatsoever for duration, so we can ..."assume it is constant". That means that, after an hour, you'll have 15-20 creatures, and after half a day, you'll have a nearly unstoppable army.


Note also that Zceryll has another advantage, i.e. creatures she gives you cannot be dispelled/disjoined, due to being supernatural. This is powerful enough on its own that a DM would be unlikely to grant more concessions.Dispel, certainly. Disjoin, that's a matter open to debate, as it does explicitly state all magical effects, rather than spells or spell-like abilities.

That said, the sword of RAW cuts both ways. If a DM doesn't want to abide by the limits of Summon Monster, instead going with the ability text, then the ability text is pretty brutal.


I get what you're saying but attempting an end run around the level limits of the ability really isn't necessary.No, but it's yet another way that the rules can be interpreted to power up the ability, to a DM that doesn't want to treat it like Summon Monster.

I'm quite happy using the "multiple creatures" clause of Summon monster, and abiding by level limits, durations, and the like. The spell lists basically that 2 creatures from SM 3 are on par with 1 from SM 4, and they're roughly equal to 3.5 creatures from SM 2. Usually, you lose power on the trade, but sometimes, you get a bit of extra mileage from low level SLA's.

[Psyren]

Actually, that's still rule 0. It's creating a limitation that's not laid out in the rules. It might not be arbitrary, but it's still Rule 0.

That said, it either is a Summon Monster spell, or it's not. Since it doesn't mention that it functions as or like summon monster, it's not. It doesn't even reference a specific summon monster spell. It references all of them as a group, and only to define what creatures can be chosen. It makes no reference whatsoever for duration, so we can ..."assume it is constant".

Nothing is laid out in the rules, therefore DM interpretation is necessary. The constant effect interpretation is no more valid than restricting it to the spell's duration. It's a safe bet which one a DM is more likely to go for.

But let's say, for argument's sake, you had a permissive DM:


That means that, after an hour, you'll have 15-20 creatures, and after half a day, you'll have a nearly unstoppable army.

An unstoppable army that you would have to create anew every morning:

"Effects created by the binder's supernatural abilities end when the vestige leaves the Binder, or if the binder dies while bound."

Or someone could assassinate you. (Actually that could be a tart campaign hook, you kill the evil Binder and his legion of twisted nightmares vanishes.)


Dispel, certainly. Disjoin, that's a matter open to debate, as it does explicitly state all magical effects, rather than spells or spell-like abilities.

The very next sentence specifies "spells and spell-like effects," so no.

[candycorn]

Nothing is laid out in the rules, therefore DM interpretation is necessary.Yes, things are. For example, look at any spell in the PHB. If you were to ask the duration of a Charm Person spell, you look at the rules, as written, and it tells you. If you were to ask the duration of a magic missile spell, you look at the rules as written, and it tells you. You need no more knowledge than you would get from a 1st grade English class.


The constant effect interpretation is no more valid than restricting it to the spell's duration.Yes, it is. It's an effect with no listed, or even hinted, duration. There's no reference to duration at all, and no ability that it grants as a template for purposes of adjudicating it. Therefore, by the text provided, as written in the Rules, we are to assume it is constant.

It may not be often ruled that way, but that does not change the fact that it is the way it should be ruled, when going strictly with what is written.

It's a safe bet which one a DM is more likely to go for.Not relevant.

But let's say, for argument's sake, you had a permissive DM:Also, not relevant.

An unstoppable army that you would have to create anew every morning:This is true. That's not much of a down side.

Or someone could assassinate you. (Actually that could be a tart campaign hook, you kill the evil Binder and his legion of twisted nightmares vanishes.)Well, if you're dead, I'd hardly consider your summon duration to be your primary concern.

The very next sentence specifies "spells and spell-like effects," so no.Yes, spells and spell like effects are dispelled. All magical effects are disjoined. The wording is imprecise, and arguments can be made both ways.

[Psyren]

Yes, things are. For example, look at any spell in the PHB. If you were to ask the duration of a Charm Person spell, you look at the rules, as written, and it tells you. If you were to ask the duration of a magic missile spell, you look at the rules as written, and it tells you. You need no more knowledge than you would get from a 1st grade English class.

...you just proved my point. All those examples you used have listed durations, and this ability doesn't.

Hell, you could just as well assume that the monster appears and vanishes instantly, because there is nothing there to say otherwise.


Yes, it is. It's an effect with no listed, or even hinted, duration. There's no reference to duration at all, and no ability that it grants as a template for purposes of adjudicating it. Therefore, by the text provided, as written in the Rules, we are to assume it is constant.

Alternatively, you can assume it's the same as the spell being referenced. Ergo, DM's choice.

[candycorn]

...you just proved my point. All those examples you used have listed durations, and this ability doesn't.

Hell, you could just as well assume that the monster appears and vanishes instantly, because there is nothing there to say otherwise.
emphasis mine. Glad you agree.


If the duration of a particular effect is not stated or implied by the ability description, assume it is constant.
There is something to say otherwise. There's no mention anywhere in the ability of anything remotely having to do with duration. No statements, no implications, not even a passing comparison between it and a particular brand of candy bar. Thus, per the rules, we assume it is constant.

[Psyren]

If the duration of a particular effect is not stated or implied by the ability description, assume it is constant

Re-emphasized right back at you. We're just agreeing all over the place, aren't we.

[candycorn]

Re-emphasized right back at you. We're just agreeing all over the place, aren't we.

Interpreting this ability as "implying the spell fragment referenced applies for all purposes other than those explicitly referenced"...

Well, it's like saying that the movie Titanic "implies" that cybernetic organisms from the future will rise up against man, and send killer robots back in time to kill John Connor.

In other words, just because you interpret it that way, does not make it a correct interpretation, and just because it exists somewhere in that manner, does not mean it works that way here.

Now, if you'd like to show an implication that has merit, you'll have an argument that has some merit. (This is an implication that your current argument does not.)

[Psyren]

Certainly:

"You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon."

As far as I know, sorcerers have only one way of summoning monsters from the Summon Monster lists - via the spells themselves. Those spells are not permanent. There's your implication.

[candycorn]

Certainly:

"You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon."

As far as I know, sorcerers have only one way of summoning monsters from the Summon Monster lists - via the spells themselves. Those spells are not permanent. There's your implication.

That's no implication. "You can choose any food that an impoverished person living in China could choose" does NOT imply that you must eat with chopsticks, or even that you must stir-fry it. It means that you can only select the foods that such a poor man from China could select. Just because the selection is limited, does not mean that the manner of use is similarly limited, suggested, or implied. There is nothing in the ability, other than your personal desire, to even suggest that.

That's not an implication. You could interpret it that way, sure...

...but you can also interpret "the dog is brown" to mean that the sky is purple. Doesn't make it correct, but while we're in the business of interpreting "up" to be "down", it's as plausible as anything else.

[Psyren]

The method of choosing is just as important as your array of choices. "Summoning a creature from the summon monster lists" is a specific act, which for sorcerers is tied to the spells they use to do so. This method of summoning is thus implied, tripping the clause in the vestige rules.

[candycorn]

The method of choosing is just as important as your array of choices. "Summoning a creature from the summon monster lists" is a specific act, which for sorcerers is tied to the spells they use to do so. This method of summoning is thus implied, tripping the clause in the vestige rules.

Except that it's not.

"that a sorcerer of your level could summon" is not an action. It's not even a spell. The ability doesn't even reference a spell. Don't believe me? Find a spell titled "Summon Monster".

What does it reference? It references the lists of 9 different spells. That's it. And those lists have no duration, no casting time, no spell components, no school or subschool. They're lists, not spells.

Then again, a sorceror can summon a spell via an Extended Summon Monster 1. Does that mean the duration is double your caster level?

You see, all it is speaking about there is the restriction on choice. You are interpreting that to mean, "it follows every rule for casting except for..." but that is not even close to referenced or suggested. You can argue that "red" means "green" all you like. I'm not colorblind, personally.

[Little Brother]

Zceryll StuffOn a separate but related note, it should be noted that Zceryll is based on your level, not your Binder Level. Thus, you can get all the Zceryll sweetness you want while forgetting Binder after 10 levels and one feat.

Also, keep in mind that a Sorcerer of your level could be PrC'd out the rear, which, depending on your reading, could be as early as a Sorcerer 10/Ur Priest 2/Theurge 10, or Sorcerer 10/Bard 1/SC 9 could get, or just a Sorcerer 10/Incantrix 10.

[candycorn]

On a separate but related note, it should be noted that Zceryll is based on your level, not your Binder Level. Thus, you can get all the Zceryll sweetness you want while forgetting Binder after 10 levels and one feat.

Also, keep in mind that a Sorcerer of your level could be PrC'd out the rear, which, depending on your reading, could be as early as a Sorcerer 10/Ur Priest 2/Theurge 10, or Sorcerer 10/Bard 1/SC 9 could get, or just a Sorcerer 10/Incantrix 10.

Well, it does refer to your level, which could be construed as "Character Level". In that case, Sorceror 1 / Savage Bard 4 / Ur Priest 8. At level 13, this sorceror can cast Summon Monster 9.

[Thurbane]

..and this is what happens with ill defined web articles. :smallfrown:

[sreservoir]

we do have Word of God on RAI for zceryll, though, which is that it acts like summon monster except that it only summons one pseudonatural monster. I'll find it, give me a moment.

[Psyren]

Then again, a sorceror can summon a spell via an Extended Summon Monster 1. Does that mean the duration is double your caster level?

Metamagic is not a sorcerer class feature. Spells are.


You see, all it is speaking about there is the restriction on choice. You are interpreting that to mean, "it follows every rule for casting except for..." but that is not even close to referenced or suggested. You can argue that "red" means "green" all you like. I'm not colorblind, personally.

We'll agree to disagree then. Good luck with instantaneous summons when you're not the DM.