Would You Play Spellcaster?

[Chained Birds]

After a few weeks of work on a special project with other guys on this site, I've almost completed a Runescape -> D&D system (preferring PF over standard 3.5). Though I've come across a quandary, would anyone play a Spellcaster in this campaign setting where casting spells and/or Psionic powers may cost them a bit of their wallet?

So, would you play a caster in this setting?

Here are my notes on the matter of casting spells/powers and using runes. Though I said this system is mainly PF, spell casters and Psionic characters would be allowed non-PF material on a case by case bases.

Runes in Spellcasting
-- School Runes --
Nature: Transmutation
Mind: Enchantment
Chaos: Evocation
Death: Necromancy
Astral Conjuration
Cosmic: Divination
Law: Abjuration
Body: Psionic Manifestations*

-- Ability Runes --
Water: Intelligence
Earth: Wisdom
Fire: Charisma
Air: Psionic's Prime Casting Ability

-- Special Runes --
Soul: Replaces material components
Blood: Metamagic/Metapsionic Component*
- (1 per level adjustment or 1 per power point)


-- How Runes Work --
All spells are at their minimums, like a bought Scroll, regardless of the Ability Score of the caster or his/her own CL or ML.*
School runes (Nature, Body, etc.) are used to increase the power or spell's caster/manifestor level to a maximum of the caster or manifestor's CL or ML.
Ability runes (Air, Fire, Water, Earth) are used to increase the ability score (starting at minimum required score) to the maximum of the manifestor/caster's current casting ability score.

Example: lvl 8 Wizard with 18int casts Fireball.*
- Without runes: The fireball deals 5d6 fire damage, with a reflex save of 14 for half. A minimum caster level of 5, and the lowest Ability Score of 13int.
Cost = 0 runes
- With runes: The fireball deals 8d6 fire damage, with a reflex save of 17 for half.*
Cost = 5 Water runes to increase the ability score from 13 -> 18; and 3 Chaos runes to increase the CL from 5 -> 8.

Rune Prices
Earth: 5 silver pieces
Water: 5 silver pieces
Fire: 5 silver pieces
Air: 1 gold piece

Mind: 3 gold pieces
Chaos: 3 gold pieces
Death: 3 gold pieces
Cosmic: 3 gold pieces
Nature: 3 gold pieces
Law: 3 gold pieces
Astral: 3 gold pieces
Body: 5 gold pieces

Blood: 35 gold pieces
Soul: 100 gold pieces

Oh, and the reason why I lumped Psionics into the rune system is because I enjoy psionics and feel they deserve an equal spot in this world.

[Flickerdart]

Well, you've managed to kill all of psionics by making every PP you spend on augmentation cost 5gp. Psions already have to pay just to catch up to arcane casting, you don't have to make it worse for them.

[Psyren]

Yeah, this hoses psionics royally. Recall that many spells have higher-level equivalents, so an arcanist who wants to cast on the cheap can simply use those every few levels: Charm Monster instead of Charm Person for instance, or Force Missiles instead of Magic Missile, or even Meteor Swarm instead of Fireball.

Psionics isn't built that way; just about every mid-high level effect will carry a cost for them under your rules, and the costs will add up fast.

[SowZ]

Still, limiting magic in this way makes mages think a bit more before casting spells and makes magic a bit more 'special.' The idea is nice even if the implementation needs tweaking.

But I would make Psionic runes work differently or cost quite a bit less, yeah.

[Chained Birds]

Hmm, You're all right about psionics. Most of the commentary I got about them were questions concerning why I even put them on the list. I might keep the Air Runes at 1gp as they technically count for all Psionic based ability scores, but will have body runs cost a crisp 1gp (1/3rd the price of the others).

I guess I was just thinking, other casters need various kinds of runes to cast various kinds of spells, but Psionics just need to horde 2 runes at any given time. But I guess I forgot about the augmentation stuff that is pretty much a must for an even mediocre Psionic character... :smallsigh:

[sonofzeal]

- I'd institute a separate system for Psionics. Aside from the balance issues listed here, it just seems awkward and out-of-flavour for them. As a suggestion, perhaps have PP recovery being "purchased" by a similar mechanism in the form of incense and whatnot. This lets you tweak the prices the way you want without interfering with other magic.


- Classes like Sorcerer and Wizard that depend on spellcasting for everything really suffer. I'd throw in something for them to do the rest of the time, either skills or reserve feats or whatnot. Making magic more special and limited is a great idea, but mages still need something to do with their actions. Clerics and especially Druids get off much better, but Arcanists really suffer.


- I'd be leery about playing a spellcaster under this system, because it's begging for the DM to pull the rug out from under me. I like adding a cost to magic, but item-dependance carries too many risks.

[georgie_leech]

My issue is that it's... slightly backwards to regular thought on magic. It's easier to cast more advanced magic. A level 17 wizard at 19 int could cast a Meteor Swarm at maximum effectiveness (barring metamagic) for much cheaper (0 runes) than the comparitively simpler fireball (11 runes)

[SowZ]

My issue is that it's... slightly backwards to regular thought on magic. It's easier to cast more advanced magic. A level 17 wizard at 19 int could cast a Meteor Swarm at maximum effectiveness (barring metamagic) for much cheaper (0 runes) than the comparitively simpler fireball (11 runes)

While I agree, that is kind of how the system works in standard d&d. A spell that lowers a save or dazzles a target is much easier to defend than a spell where failure to save means death.

[Coidzor]

It was a bad idea the last time Runescape casting was brought up on this board and it's still a bad idea.

You don't want to make mages less able to cast, this is D&D that's what they do unless they're in the hated crossbow stage, you want to do away with abusive spells.

[Suddo]

I'd only play Tome of Battle stuff and Factotum.

I know you said PF preferred but still.

Oh and Artificers are still fine sense when you play one of those Runes become a non-issue.

Oh and does eschew materials allow you to turn gold directly into runes on the fly cause that might be cool.

[georgie_leech]

While I agree, that is kind of how the system works in standard d&d. A spell that lowers a save or dazzles a target is much easier to defend than a spell where failure to save means death.

That makes perfect sense, actually. A minor effect that only slightly affects you would be easier to defend against than magic that sucks out your soul. But even so, that's beside the point. We're not looking at how easy it is to defend against, we're looking at what it takes to do in the first place. The basic assumption is that higher level magics are more complicated, else low-level mages would be using them. This system does the reverse, that it's easier to squeeze the full potential out of a high level than a low level. In my meteor swarm example, the unquestionably better blasting spell (higher save DC, more damage, bigger area, more saves) is cheaper than the less effective spell.

[Tyndmyr]

It doesn't really make the slightest bit of sense. In short, it doesn't improve game balance or anything else at all, and it adds a lot of bookkeeping. It exists in runescape to make another form of grinding required. It doesn't actually add anything desirable.

That said, yes, I'd gleefully play a wizard or other T1 caster and abuse the heck out of this. It would mostly just make my competition weaker, and by the time it was actually a notable factor(significant difference between CL and spell level), the costs would be trivial, since they scale terribly.

Also, for some spells, CL is not that important. If it's a SoD...whatever. It only matters for overcoming SR.

[Chained Birds]

Oh and does eschew materials allow you to turn gold directly into runes on the fly cause that might be cool.

I had planned for the feat to be taken multiple times if wanted and each time it allows you to forgo a type school rune of your choice. Though only a number of times per day equal to your main casting modifier.

Ex: Eschew Materials (Death).

[Psyren]

It was a bad idea the last time Runescape casting was brought up on this board and it's still a bad idea.

You don't want to make mages less able to cast, this is D&D that's what they do unless they're in the hated crossbow stage, you want to do away with abusive spells.

Pretty much this. You may as well take cues from Maplestory.

[Suddo]

I had planned for the feat to be taken multiple times if wanted and each time it allows you to forgo a type school rune of your choice. Though only a number of times per day equal to your main casting modifier.

Ex: Eschew Materials (Death).

That might be interesting, you might want to do some testing to see if that enough for the feat to be worth it. Though cool allow that feat does is say: You gain Main Spellcasting Attribute * 5 gp per day. Which is worse than toughness at high levels. My version is technically more worthless but a feat that says: Less Bookkeeping. Is awesome.

Plus I do agree that this system is just slowing down early casters (when they are weak) and not late game casters (when they are strong).