Statting an Overdeity...

[NineThePuma]

I'm curious as to know what the playground thinks about stating out an Overdeity.

I've got a powerful, central, god but part of the major themes to my campaign is the cycle of renewal. The "cycle" is about to turn full circle, and it's time for the world to go into a new era in order to not stagnate. So the big G himself needs to come down.

I want to stat him to be something that the Players can fight, but I don't want him to be an anticlimax boss either.

[Alleran]

I want to stat him to be something that the Players can fight, but I don't want him to be an anticlimax boss either.
Overdeities are essentially unstattable. Their only rule is "I win" (or some variant thereof).

Even running it as a DvR 20 greater deity (for reference, the various heads of pantheons of statted-out gods don't ever break DvR 19 unless you're using the monotheist one in Deities and Demigods) running as the "Supreme" portfolio (essentially what an overdeity probably should have) would make it essentially beyond the ability of the players to fight with even the most rudimentary application of SDAs. Go check out "Divine Splendour" - it means that any mortal who gets near it will die. No saving throw. And then there's Alter Reality, Mass Life and Death, and other such powers.

Unless the PCs are already greater gods in their own right, I don't see them having much of a chance.

[motoko's ghost]

Overdeities are essentially unstattable. Their only rule is "I win" (or some variant thereof).

Even running it as a DvR 20 greater deity (for reference, the various heads of pantheons of statted-out gods don't ever break DvR 19 unless you're using the monotheist one in Deities and Demigods) running as the "Supreme" portfolio (essentially what an overdeity probably should have) would make it essentially beyond the ability of the players to fight with even the most rudimentary application of SDAs. Go check out "Divine Splendour" - it means that any mortal who gets near it will die. No saving throw. And then there's Alter Reality, Mass Life and Death, and other such powers.

Unless the PCs are already greater gods in their own right, I don't see them having much of a chance.

Hes got a point, maybe if it was just some sort of really strong, nondeific avatar they could fight it, otherwise there is no way they can beat something that is to the gods as the gods are to your players.

EDIT:possibly it could have been weakened? DR1 ish or so, that would be powerful but not improbably so.

[Greymane]

The first rule of statting Overdeities... is don't stat Overdeities. :smallamused:

Alleran highlighted why fighting one is just plain silly. And really, this is the head honcho who even all the other gods are terrified of defying, because he can unmake them. [citation needed]

You would pretty much need to hand them a handful of McGuffins that make them immune to the instant death tricks that they would be up against, and even then if the Overdiety is properly optimized, he should still be able to crush them without much effort.

And besides, if you're making the PCs immune to his SDAs, you might as well just be fighting any other super-charged Outsider.

[SowZ]

If he is a central diety in the sense that he is the strongest and most creative/vital god I could see it done if the PCs have achieved diety level and have a clever, (not outright fight,) way of winning. A straight up use of spells and attacks wouldn't be enough. If it is more of a conceptual, monotheistic god in the sense that it is the sentience of the universe? I don't understand how it could be destroyed at all, really. The renewal concept is interesting. Is it an underlying intelligence/law of reality, (a god-force rather than a person type god,) in the universe greater than the god head that brings the over-diety down to a beatable level?

[motoko's ghost]

I would say attacking his faith and converting them would eventually weaken him to a lesser status, unfortunately that only works on greater gods or weaker:smallfrown: The overdeities are quite literally the fabric of reality, you'd have to destroy huge swaths of reality itself to even get their attention, much less hurt them.

[DoctorGlock]

It's entirely pointless since overdeities usually have a big "can do whatever they want to anything of lesser rank" button. If you really insist head over to dicefreaks, they have about 2 or three statted up. With CRs in the 200+ range. Meaning they had to use immortals handbook. Which means run away from poorly constructed walls of numbers.

[Gavinfoxx]

Surely Dicefreaks, in their capability, used something other than the immortals handbook??

[DoctorGlock]

Surely Dicefreaks, in their capability, used something other than the immortals handbook??

Having been a while since checking, I looked back. Ao is the only one statted and not using the epileptic monkey book, CR 150, ability to summon any 50 gods as a standard action and all SDAs. Good luck.

Old dicefreaks had a few more, including the lady of pain as a CR 230ish rank 29 and some kind of angel of death as a CR 200+ rank 28ish. Both had d1000 HD, meaning monkeybook

[Ashtagon]

"Kills 1d6 PCs per round."

Call of Cthulhu stated overdeities best, I think.

[Alleran]

Call of Cthulhu stated overdeities best, I think.
Didn't that book say something about how if the PCs manage to nuke Cthulhu, he'll be back in a month? Except then he'd also be radioactive on top of everything he already was?

[Jan Mattys]

Call of Cthulhu stated overdeities best, I think.

The fun thing is that Cthulhu wouldn't even be close to the "Overdeity destructive capability" status in D&D terms...

I like to think Overdeities in terms of Characters and Authors. How likely is Roy to ever kill, permanently injure, temporarily inconvenience, or even escape for a brief moment Rich Burlew's control / supervision / knowledge ?

Exactly.

Now imagine that somehow the realm of fiction and the realm of reality shared the same dimension, while keeping the same scale in terms of power and knowledge. Roy would still be so much both under the omniscient influence AND beneath the notice of Rich that his actions wouldn't matter.

[candycorn]

The fun thing is that Cthulhu wouldn't even be close to the "Overdeity destructive capability" status in D&D terms...

I like to think Overdeities in terms of Characters and Authors. How likely is Roy to ever kill, permanently injure, temporarily inconvenience, or even escape for a brief moment Rich Burlew's control / supervision / knowledge ?

Exactly.

Now imagine that somehow the realm of fiction and the realm of reality shared the same dimension, while keeping the same scale in terms of power and knowledge. Roy would still be so much both under the omniscient influence AND beneath the notice of Rich that his actions wouldn't matter.
So... to reset the world, the PC's would have to give the overdeity a case of Writer's Block?

[gkathellar]

If you're using the Deities and Demigods definition of an Overdeity, don't bother. The Deities and Demigods rules are basically a whole book telling you not to even think of running gods in D&D. This is, of course, a huge departure from the mythical tradition where gods can be occasionally beaten and blackmailed by the greatest mortals, but D&D has never done myth well.

Personally, I don't care for Divine Rank, and I don't care for Epic without Epic Destinies. A god in any of my settings has 25+ optimized character levels, and the top dog god usually has 30+.

[Jan Mattys]

So... to reset the world, the PC's would have to give the overdeity a case of Writer's Block?

I don't know if you're being serious or if you're mocking me, but my answer is... Maybe. It could certainly be interesting.
Sadly, a writer's block would also result in the players themselves being stuck in time/place as their reality gets stale and withers.

In general: I think that the only way to deal with universal changes is to think outside the box. You have to throw logic and cause/effect reasoning out of the window and go with the flow. An analogy like a writer's block, while apparently silly, could be acceptable in letting lesser minds understand the kind of link that ties them to an Overdeity and its impact on the very fabric of reality.

[candycorn]

I don't know if you're being serious or if you're mocking me, but my answer is... Maybe. It could certainly be interesting.No mocking. I thought of the idea, as the only way that subject matter can make the author struggle.

Sadly, a writer's block would also result in the players themselves being stuck in time/place as their reality gets stale and withers.Think Neverending Story. What if the story can nominate a new author, from the realm of authors?

[Jan Mattys]

No mocking. I thought of the idea, as the only way that subject matter can make the author struggle.
Think Neverending Story. What if the story can nominate a new author, from the realm of authors?

The possibilities are endless.
And intriguing. :smallwink:

My first thought: imagine a very successful fanfiction. So successful, that it starts contending the original author the right to establish what is in-universe canon and what is not.
That could be an interesting analogy for a new-overdeity out-ruling the old one.
How such a process can be powered by in-universe characters, is another interesting question.

Also, what would happen to the fictional world while the two authors struggle for dominance is also interesting. Would it involve subtle but decisive changes, or apocalyptic events?

[Starshade]

One thing I though of, is an overdeity could be an composite creature of several smaller creatures, equal to an multiheaded creature, who can "split off" and turn to several smaller gods, about in "Power Rangers" style. Make the super powered Overdeity split up into its components, and trick them somehow apart, fighting one at a time.

Alternatively, one other option is the old fashioned mighty artifact. Perhaps an remnant of an earlier cycle of the world, an archaic god's weapon, armour, etc. Justifying him to be something akin to an ordinary boss with "just" insane health.

[DoctorGlock]

Defining your OD is also difficult. If he is just some super statblock what makes him an OD rather than a normal god? If an OD is essentially the incarnation of the universe itself, stats are useless because there is no fight. It's like one of your atoms mounting a rebellion.

[Alleran]

It's like one of your atoms mounting a rebellion.
Well, there was that time when I accidentally poked myself in the eye with my finger. Does that count? :smalltongue:

[gkathellar]

Doctor Glock has it right. Overdeities are often described as being something so fundamental they can't be challenged. How would you fight the dragons Eberron, Khyber and Siberys, for instance, when they are literally the size of the world?

[Killer Angel]

Well, there was that time when I accidentally poked myself in the eye with my finger. Does that count? :smalltongue:

If it does, that's probably the best max result you can achieve Vs an OD. :smallwink:

edit: the "big G himself" shouldn't be worried by a turn full circle and a new era. For Him, it's a sort of character improvement. :smallcool:

[kabreras]

Imo instead of fighting him the OD should chalenge PC over some hard bu beatables tests to show him their motivations.

If they win the contest he unmake reality himself and run the new era (and make them assend to godhood in that new era as they showed him they were able to show their power).
And basically in that contest make the others gods plot against the PCs because they dont want the full circle to come as it means their destruction.

[DoctorGlock]

Imo instead of fighting him the OD should chalenge PC over some hard bu beatables tests to show him their motivations.

If they win the contest he unmake reality himself and run the new era (and make them assend to godhood in that new era as they showed him they were able to show their power).
And basically in that contest make the others gods plot against the PCs because they dont want the full circle to come as it means their destruction.

I'm actually working on something similar for my game (sort of)

You know who you are, don't read it

The PCs (who are demigods, gods and legends) are manipulated into disrupting the pillars of creation (time, space, creation, entropy) and the multiverse begins to crumble as entropy gains dominance. Everything starts to spiral to a point from which the next creation will spawn, in an entirely different image with utterly alien laws. This of course will result in the end of everything anyone holds dear. A PC/the PCs (depending on how they choose) must adopt the Creator's mantle to solidify existence (or reshape it in a new image)

Along they way they of course meet the warring factions of the gods who each want that coveted post, ambitious mortals, nihilistic starspawn bent on the end of all things, and shattered alien remnants from previous creations who wish to exist once more.

My main problem is coming up with a "final boss" type encounter. I am not having them fight the creator, it's sort of gone, but i need a way for them to assume its mantle. Your post sort of brought this up. Anyone got ideas?

[kabreras]

I'm actually working on something similar for my game (sort of)

You know who you are, don't read it

The PCs (who are demigods, gods and legends) are manipulated into disrupting the pillars of creation (time, space, creation, entropy) and the multiverse begins to crumble as entropy gains dominance. Everything starts to spiral to a point from which the next creation will spawn, in an entirely different image with utterly alien laws. This of course will result in the end of everything anyone holds dear. A PC/the PCs (depending on how they choose) must adopt the Creator's mantle to solidify existence (or reshape it in a new image)

Along they way they of course meet the warring factions of the gods who each want that coveted post, ambitious mortals, nihilistic starspawn bent on the end of all things, and shattered alien remnants from previous creations who wish to exist once more.

My main problem is coming up with a "final boss" type encounter. I am not having them fight the creator, it's sort of gone, but i need a way for them to assume its mantle. Your post sort of brought this up. Anyone got ideas?

Creator imprisoned by a rogue greater god of chaos while he was trying to fix reality and this greater god is actually syphoning the creator power.
PS have to free him by fighting the streinghted greater god and at end creator is too exhausted to do really something so he give lend his powers to a PC

[DoctorGlock]

Creator imprisoned by a rogue greater god of chaos while he was trying to fix reality and this greater god is actually syphoning the creator power.
PS have to free him by fighting the streinghted greater god and at end creator is too exhausted to do really something so he give lend his powers to a PC

I wanted to have more of a rebirth theme going. The Creator has to be completely gone/never truly existed in the sense that a single entity did/more of a natural force-the incarnation of the eternal cycle. The other gods should not be able to interact with it in any equal sense but rather be more like ants squabbling over a massive corpse. I don't want them fighting God or even a traditional D&D god. Heck, traditional D&D gods do not even exist in this setting, the gods are just 20th level folks built around a theme. I don't think a boss fight actually works so I am looking for something else. I just don't know what yet.

Also we are using Legend if that changes anything.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Have them ask him what he needs with a starship.

Watch him explode.

More seriously, a philosophical debate about the transience of reality seems like a more appropriate way to end this than a straight-up fight.

EDIT: This applies mainly to the OP, and only maybe DoctorGlock.

[gkathellar]

I'm actually working on something similar for my game (sort of)

You know who you are, don't read it

The PCs (who are demigods, gods and legends) are manipulated into disrupting the pillars of creation (time, space, creation, entropy) and the multiverse begins to crumble as entropy gains dominance. Everything starts to spiral to a point from which the next creation will spawn, in an entirely different image with utterly alien laws. This of course will result in the end of everything anyone holds dear. A PC/the PCs (depending on how they choose) must adopt the Creator's mantle to solidify existence (or reshape it in a new image)

Along they way they of course meet the warring factions of the gods who each want that coveted post, ambitious mortals, nihilistic starspawn bent on the end of all things, and shattered alien remnants from previous creations who wish to exist once more.

My main problem is coming up with a "final boss" type encounter. I am not having them fight the creator, it's sort of gone, but i need a way for them to assume its mantle. Your post sort of brought this up. Anyone got ideas?

DoctorGlock:
Ever play Devil Survivor? Even after you beat all the competition for it, the mantle of Bel itself needs to be beaten into submission before you can claim it. The Creator's power itself need not be benevolent, accommodating or even interested in fulfilling it's role — it's just pure power, plain and simple, and it must be tamed before it can be harnessed.

In Legend terms ... it would be Legendary, definitely, and maybe it has all four elemental tracks? Otherwise, I'd say Virtue, Mechanist Savant, Runesong Scholar, Smiting and Path of Destruction are all good fits. Maybe use the miniboss rules.

[DoctorGlock]

Have them ask him what he needs with a starship.

Watch him explode.

More seriously, a philosophical debate about the transience of reality seems like a more appropriate way to end this than a straight-up fight.

EDIT: This applies mainly to the OP, and only maybe DoctorGlock.

Frankly I'd prefer that, but a few of my players absolutely require combat.

I do have combat with some of the aspects of dissolution, mainly Azrael who represents the ending that leads to the next beginning or Iblis who just wants it to end. After that they step forward and find... well, that's where I draw a blank


DoctorGlock:
Ever play Devil Survivor? Even after you beat all the competition for it, the mantle of Bel itself needs to be beaten into submission before you can claim it. The Creator's power itself need not be benevolent, accommodating or even interested in fulfilling it's role — it's just pure power, plain and simple, and it must be tamed before it can be harnessed.

In Legend terms ... it would be Legendary, definitely, and maybe it has all four elemental tracks? Otherwise, I'd say Virtue, Mechanist Savant, Runesong Scholar, Smiting and Path of Destruction are all good fits. Maybe use the miniboss rules.

Sadly never played the game. Or heard of it. I was going that direction with the pure power bit though. There are just no mechanical ways to do it, it would be solid RP. Two of the group are philosophy majors and would love that, another two are serious RPerS and would enjoy it, the last two are "I HIT IT WITH MY AXE!" types and want to put an axe in it. Somehow.

My initial idea was to have them acquire enough divine power to allow them to exist independent of creation. Thus at the end they exist in the void along with a point of infinite and being the only things there are take the thing and shape it, either remaking their old multiverse or building the new one. Or knowing some players eating it and screaming "I AM GOD!" into a definition less void. My problem is making that climactic as one or more realize for anything to exist they have to forsake a place inside it to structure it from without (free will is a theme and I am drawing off some kabalistic elements). I want a bid dramatic ending, not an evangaleion orange goo ending.

[Real Sorceror]

Well, I'm gonna go against the tide of nay-sayers and tell you to do what you want.

As someone who has run and played in games where the entire party is deities, I can say it still holds up fine if you are creative and your group trusts eachother. We've used Deities & Demigods, Dicefreaks, and Upper Krust's Ascension. We eventually stopped using Ascension, however, because it did get pretty silly.

Just be sure you have a strong understanding of your party's capabilities so that the challenge isn't out of reach. I'd leave Divine Splendor out of the equation unless the characters are deities themselves. While its possible for a sufficiently epic party to challenge and defeat a deity, they'd usually have to have many more class levels than the god itself.

Because no exact rules for overdeities are given in standard 3.5, I would probably just do a full rank 20 greater god or create a proxy of the overgod.

[Waker]

In reply to the OP, maybe the Over Deity is required to die in order to act as the final reset button on the universe. And as he is nearing the end of his life, he may be at the lowest ebb in his divine power. It may be that every time the universe restarts he puts himself in a compromising situation in order to be slain and renew the cycle.
The players themselves are rewarded in some fashion, becoming deities themselves, being allowed to preserve part of reality or something else to that effect.

[Nerd-o-rama]

This post contains spoilers for the one RP I run consistently. Maybe.

DoctorGlock:
In an RP that shall remain nameless I have a similar idea for the final boss - simply a manifestation of Power, the higher-dimensional Source of all energy. It's only barely sapient in terms humans can understand, and the final battle I have planned at the moment is something like this.

The main antagonists have summoned the Source directly to material reality to use as a weapon. After the good guys beat them in combat and the Source charbroils them because they don't understand what infinite power means, the Source will still be tethered to the weapon it was hooked up to, and going friggin' berserk because it's not supposed to physically exist. The goal of the good guy will be not to destroy the Source, but the thing tying it to physical reality.

You could use something similar for your endboss - something that's tethering the Ultimate Power or whatever to the current form and using its power, rather than letting it get on with the process of rebuilding reality. The thing controlling it will attempt to fight with all the Overdeity's infinite power, but it is by nature limited and destroyable. Then, once that's gone, it will be a matter of the PCs choosing how to direct the power.

[DoctorGlock]

This post contains spoilers for the one RP I run consistently. Maybe.

DoctorGlock:
In an RP that shall remain nameless I have a similar idea for the final boss - simply a manifestation of Power, the higher-dimensional Source of all energy. It's only barely sapient in terms humans can understand, and the final battle I have planned at the moment is something like this.

The main antagonists have summoned the Source directly to material reality to use as a weapon. After the good guys beat them in combat and the Source charbroils them because they don't understand what infinite power means, the Source will still be tethered to the weapon it was hooked up to, and going friggin' berserk because it's not supposed to physically exist. The goal of the good guy will be not to destroy the Source, but the thing tying it to physical reality.

You could use something similar for your endboss - something that's tethering the Ultimate Power or whatever to the current form and using its power, rather than letting it get on with the process of rebuilding reality. The thing controlling it will attempt to fight with all the Overdeity's infinite power, but it is by nature limited and destroyable. Then, once that's gone, it will be a matter of the PCs choosing how to direct the power.

That would actually fit perfectly with the motives one of the factions has. The rebuild reality in the image of the last one the broken remaining pseudo dead eldritch horrors used to call home.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Really, a "control God" machine could be useful to anyone, but yeah, those guys sound a bit like my main antagonists. Although they don't come from a previous universe, just a very ancient society. Their goals as a faction probably vary between "resurrect our civilization" and "SCIENCE!"

[pwykersotz]

You could always pull out the Wild Arms 2 answer and have them trap the overdeity in a form that CAN be fought. If so, you can have the stats be derived by how well the players found/constructed it. If they did a poor job, the container can't hold the being's power and it spills out giving the overdeity greater freedom and power. If they made it well, it restricts it to a Level 50 with base 50's in each stat and every spell in existence at it's disposal.

How do they trap it? That'll be up to you. Maybe dust from the dawn of time and a golem carved from material in the center of the earth, or something.

On the other hand, they might not have to fight it. Maybe the overdeity simply uses a spell/device to enable the change and the player characters have to figure out a way to stop that instead. Then, if they succeed, they earn its direct attention and it can be RP from there.