Longbows and Composite Longbows and Magic... oh my.

[missmvicious]

Recap... in Spoilers in case TL;DR...

Thanks to a new revelation about RAW that I probably should've known for a while, I'm now in the market to buy my fellow PC (a ranged fighting Ranger) a new bow and some arrows... but the rules are confusing me a bit. I admitted to the DM that we've been miscalculating the damage (applying DEX to damage on her Longbow) based on a house rule from my first ever DM that I never bothered to question. He understood (realized it was an honest mistake), and is willing to let us have a MW Longbow or MW Composite Longbow for free to build off of when I get back to town, which should be about a day and a half in game.

We're fighting mostly Abyssal creatures. Knowledge checks have revealed that Cold Iron works well and so does Good, Law, and Magic... though those don't pop up as much as those with Cold Iron weaknesses. Oh and according to PHB, holy water works, so Holy should work too, right?

Ranger's stats are:
15 STR
17 DEX
15 CON
15 INT
15 WIS
15 CHA

So I'm probably getting her a MW Composite Longbow and paying for the +2 to damage. But I'm a little uncertain about how magic works regarding bows and/or arrows.

Do you enchant the bow or the arrows? Do you enchant both? After poking at the DMG, pg. 223, I get the impression that I have to buy both a Magic Composite Longbow and Magic Arrows, but I distinctly remember reading somewhere that purchasing a magic bow imparts the magical properties to the arrow. And if you make the Composite Bow magical, it takes the highest bonus, doesn't it?

So a MW Composite Longbow +2 (STR), with +5 Magic is really just a +5 Magic Composite Longbow. It that's the case, is it even worth it to spend the money upgrading the Composite Longbow?

Maybe, if that's the case, I should get a +X Longbow with +X Cold Iron Arrows, so that, in a pinch other PCs could use it.

Or wait... since I can enchant arrows, do I have to enchant the Bow as well? I'm so confused. Ranged weapons are complicated. :smallconfused:

What should I get the Ranger in our party so she can help us put the smack down on these Abyssals?

FYI, I have a pretty massive budget to work with. Not only do we have our adventuring wealth, but as employees of the Government, we get a weekly "paycheck" and since we're on a special save-the-kingdom kind of mission, we get petty cash privileges from the king to make certain equipment upgrades... within reason. Also, my PCs parents are loaded, and I can borrow money from them... though I'm starting to abuse that privilege a bit too much. Still, if it's really worth it, I should be able to diplomacy roll some more GP out of them. Advice?

[DoctorGlock]

bonuses to weapons never stack, the higher would take precedence in the case of magic bow/magic arrows

A +5 longbow with +2 composite str would allow 1d8 weapon damage, 2 str damage, 5 magic enhancement damage

As to dex to damage there are feats and levels for that, but it's a reasonable houserule and should probably be kept because 3.5 just hates archers

Best thing to get the ranger is a +x splitting force bow, 2d6 base, allows ranged power attack, auto adjusts for str. around 22k

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a
base item

How do I make A link appear as something else? I wanted it to say "force bow" and link to the article

[AspectOfNihil]

DoctorGlock is right, magic ammunition seems to be a cheap alternative for in case you come across DR/Magic or Incorporeal creatures a reasonable amount at low level.

Holy is nice yes, as is Magebane, this combo means pretty much every evil outsider is gonna hate you.

A lot.

I'm not sure how a Bane weapon works with Magebane, IIRC, only one bane effect works per creature, but Magebane is a separate enchantment.

If your DM lets them go together, a +1 Magebane Holy Outsider(Evil) bane Composite Longbow is gonna hit them where it hurts.

Other than that, there's things like Exit Wound from Complete Warrior (+2 Bonus, extra D6 damage and hits any creature behind it as well) but that is a bit costly.

Other than that (2), Holy>Magebane>Bane

Hope it helps

[Darrin]

As to dex to damage there are feats and levels for that, but it's a reasonable houserule and should probably be kept because 3.5 just hates archers


The Dead Eye feat (in Dragon Compendium, not the PHBII feat) lets you add your Dex bonus to damage to targets within 30'. Note: the prereqs has a typo, you only need BAB +1 as per the official errata.

Also, I just stumbled across this today... the Fierce weapon property (+2 enhancement, Arms & Equipment Guide) offers something similar to Power Attack. You can convert your Dex bonus into a damage bonus. You lose your Dex for for both attack and AC, but that may be another good way to increase your damage output.

[missmvicious]

We all wanted RAW this time, as a way to force ourselves to finally learn game mechanics.

So, if it's RAW, then DM will allow it. But isn't Magebane a Feat? We're not getting new Feats yet, so it'll just have to be the bow and arrows for now.

I like the Force Bow! And while that stresses the borders of my budget, I might be able to argue it. After all, the stat requirements for it are surprisingly low:

Caster Level 6, Magic Missile to Craft. I mean... I already meet those requirements so now I just have to hope that someone in town has already crafted something like that because time is running out in our campaign. I figure we've got a week tops before our home town is overrun by Abyssals.

[AspectOfNihil]

Forgot about the Forcebow >.< Pretty much one of the best base bows out there.

Nah, Magebane is a +1 enhancement from CompArc, It's effectively Bane against anything that casts arcane spells or has SLAs. Yeah, it's nice.

Personally, I wouldn't see much value in adding Dex to damage with the bow using magic. For the bonuses it takes to put it on the weapon, you could get an enchantment that does much nastier things. Definitely worth getting if you can get it through feats though.

[Palanan]

If you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend Eldariel's Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0), which is a prime resource for ranged characters. He has an extensive section on bow enhancements and types of arrows, both magical and otherwise.

[Cicciograna]

How do I make A link appear as something else? I wanted it to say "force bow" and link to the article

With The thing you want to write (The address you want to link)

For example, in your case it would be force bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)

[DoctorGlock]

if the DM lets the ranger retrain favored enemy to arcane hunter she can get a nice bonus against SLA using demonspawn

Note that the force bow bypasses DR

what level is the party? Does the ranger have multishot? Splitting multishot combined with hunter's mercy could do a moderate amount of damage depending on level, assuming 11+ and a splitting bow you would be looking at [12d6+6st+12]x3, but the range issue is a pain.

[missmvicious]

A lot of topics here... beware if this post is schizophrenic:

About Levels, Feats, Etc:
As luck would have it, I still have a copy of her Character Sheet which will tell you all about her feats, stats and what-have-you.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50887717/L5%20Isabel%20Evans%20copy.pdf

A Little About the Character:
We're human, but we're super special. Each of us got to pick a 0-Level Sorcerer spell as an SLA on Character creation. So that's why the 0-Level spell is there.

Try not to cringe when you see the build. She's never built a character before, and I'm not really good at building either. So we're kind of the severely near-sighted leading the blind. She's set up so that she will qualify for Shot on the Run at L6, and she should be hitting that in an encounter or two.

She originally picked Vermin as a Favored Enemy and won't give it up. The DM suggested from L1 that she pick Outsider [Evil] but she wanted her own fear of insects to be added to Isabel's backstory. She finally backed down and added last level I think. Anyway, she's got some arrows tipped with sleep poison, but most of the time she can barely get over the DR hump, so she never has a good use for them.


About the Force Bow:
If the Magic Missile arrows can bypass DR, can they bypass SR? I worry, since they're basically spells being shot instead of material arrows. We're encountering some enemies with Spell Resistance, and I'm not sure how much luck she'll have with that. I assume she counts as Caster Level 1 since she's only got L1 spells so far?

If the Energy Bow bypasses DR and SR, then I think we have a winner, if it's available in town. I'll show it to the DM and see what he says.

About Arcane Hunter:
Are you talking about the PrC? She doesn't want to go PrC. We all suggested that she look into it, but with college beating her to death, she doesn't really want to learn a whole new class, regardless of how prestigious it may be.

About Splitting Multi-Shot:
What does that mean? I assume you're talking about some kind of magical enchantment and not just shooting one demon, then shooting another... effectively splitting your multi-shot.

Palanan:
Thanks for the link! I'll send it to her. She could definitely benefit from the info there. I hope she'll read it.

Enhancements to the Force Bow:
So, we've listed off:
Holy
Magebane
Bane
Exit Wound
Fierce

I'll be pretty strapped for cash and in debt once I buy the Force Bow, assuming my parents lend me the money. If I can afford an enhancement... I'll probably only be able to afford one.

Which one should it be? And will it render the bow useless against anything but Abyssals? We've already discussed taking our characters beyond this campaign, so it might be nice if this bow wasn't a one-trick-pony since it's going to obliterate the party's finances.

[DoctorGlock]

energy bow is not a spell, it is a force effects though and thus not physical damage. Thus no SR, no DR

Splitting is an enhancement, it doubles your arrows once they leave the bow, thus the best enchantment to get for it. It's an expensive one though, i think +3 or +4.

Multishot lets you make all attacks as one roll, very useful for spells like hunter's mercy, 'tis a feat

[Daftendirekt]

No, Arcane Hunter is an ACF in Complete Mage(?) that essentially gives you Favored Enemy: Magic users (not all; just anybody who can cast arcane spells or spell-like abilities). LOTS of creatures have spell-like abilities, so it's a very versatile favored enemy, much more so than a particular creature type.

Splitting is a weapon enhancement, yes. I forget what book it's in, somebody else will come along with that, though.

[Greenish]

About the Force Bow:
If the Magic Missile arrows can bypass DR, can they bypass SR?They're not "Magic Missile Arrows". They're not spells. They're not affected by SR.

About Arcane Hunter:
Are you talking about the PrC?No. It's a ranger ACF (Alternate Class Feature) from C.Mage, that allows you to select anyone who casts Arcane Spells as your favoured enemy.


About Splitting Multi-Shot:
What does that mean? I assume you're talking about some kind of magical enchantment and not just shooting one demon, then shooting another... effectively splitting your multi-shot.Yes. Splitting is from Champions of Ruin.


Enhancements to the Force Bow:
So, we've listed off:
Holy
Magebane
Bane
Exit Wound
Fierce

I'll be pretty strapped for cash and in debt once I buy the Force Bow, assuming my parents lend me the money. If I can afford an enhancement... I'll probably only be able to afford one.Bane and Magebane are only +1, so probably either one of those. If you have money, Holy is more applicable, and you can have Bane on your arrows.


And will it render the bow useless against anything but Abyssals?Why would it? Bane/Holy/etc. qualities only work against specific enemies, but they won't stop the rest of the bow from working.

[missmvicious]

Ok... a lot of this is starting to come together. Thanks for the book references!

Arcane Hunter is out until she levels up, because she hasn't put any ranks into Know: Arcana, which is a requirement. But I'll throw that her way and see what she thinks... since it's not a total class revision, I think she'll be more receptive to it.

I looked up Splitting, and I love it! But it seems a little pricey. Holy is in the ballpark with a high Diplomacy roll with my parents... but I have doubts.

Still, those enhancements can be added later. Even if I don't talk my parents into shelling out the cash now, we're still talking about a +2 Bow with unlimited ammo that bypasses DR and doesn't even cross swords with SR. That alone changes the game, with room to build. I'm a Magic Items Crafter, so as I find GP, I can start adding Holy and Splitting to it. It may take longer, but at least she gets to be a valid contributor to combat now.

A Holy [Splitting] Force Bow of Baneful Smite... I like it! :smallbiggrin: It'll need a shorter name though... it's a work in progress. :smallamused:

I may have to let the DM know I'm shopping for this. Stuff this powerful has a shot at being intelligent, and he deserves the right to roll up the stats, just in case.

Thanks everyone!

[DoctorGlock]

Name for the weapon eh?

Volley of Judgement
Holy Rain
Fusillade of Light
Hail of the Righteous

[horseboy]

A Holy [Splitting] Force Bow of Baneful Smite... I like it! :smallbiggrin: It'll need a shorter name though... it's a work in progress. :smallamused:

Charlene. Just don't let her shoot herself in the face.

[Glimbur]

Nah, Magebane is a +1 enhancement from CompArc, It's effectively Bane against anything that casts arcane spells or has SLAs. Yeah, it's nice.

It got updated in Magic Item Compendium to be less good. IIRC it only works on things with arcane spells and invocations now.

There's a relic bow, Bow of the Winter Moon or something, that adjusts to your str score. It's kind of nice as a base bow.

[Douglas]

Do you enchant the bow or the arrows? Do you enchant both? After poking at the DMG, pg. 223, I get the impression that I have to buy both a Magic Composite Longbow and Magic Arrows, but I distinctly remember reading somewhere that purchasing a magic bow imparts the magical properties to the arrow. And if you make the Composite Bow magical, it takes the highest bonus, doesn't it?

So a MW Composite Longbow +2 (STR), with +5 Magic is really just a +5 Magic Composite Longbow. It that's the case, is it even worth it to spend the money upgrading the Composite Longbow?

Maybe, if that's the case, I should get a +X Longbow with +X Cold Iron Arrows, so that, in a pinch other PCs could use it.

Or wait... since I can enchant arrows, do I have to enchant the Bow as well? I'm so confused. Ranged weapons are complicated. :smallconfused:
I don't think this has been answered in detail yet, so here goes:

RAW regarding ranged weapons, specifically of the launcher+projectile type, is that the shot gets the best of everything from both the launcher and the projectile. Properties that are the same don't stack, but you get all the properties involved.

If you have a bow with:
+5 enhancement
Holy
Flaming

And you shoot arrows that are:
cold iron
+2 enhancement
Bane (evil outsiders)
Flaming

The resulting shot would be:
cold iron (from the arrow)
+5 enhancement (from the bow)
Holy (from the bow)
Bane (evil outsiders) (from the arrow)
Flaming (from both, but only counts once)

This, combined with the disposable nature and cheaper price of ammunition has the following consequences:
A) For long term cost effectiveness, enchant only the bow. Every magic arrow you shoot is money gone forever.
B) For short term power, enchant the arrow. You can get a bonus for one shot that's 50 times beyond your budget to get permanently.
C) For maximum power with unlimited funds, enchant both and make sure you pick completely non-overlapping abilities. A +5 bow with +5 of special abilities, shooting a +1 arrow with +9 in specials, produces a +5 shot with +14 worth of special abilities if they're all different.
D) Situational things, particularly mundane material-based DR, can be extremely cost effective on ammunition. A sword fighter who finds he needs cold iron instead of his standard adamantine (or whatever) needs to get a whole new weapon complete with a full copy of every magical ability he wants to use with it. An archer can just shrug, pull out a different arrow, and watch as his bow's abilities transfer automatically.

[missmvicious]

Thanks Douglas! That's a good point. I thought that might be how it worked, but wasn't 100%. I'm not excited about the fact that these arrows are destroyed upon use, but if I'm wasting GP (XP is gambled in our house-rule for magic crafting, not just automatically lost) and risking XP for something, I'd like it to be a permanent something, but still. It makes more sense to buff the bow with general usage stuff, and then get some more specific arrows, like how my grandfather, when he was healthy enough to hunt, always kept multiple types of bullets for the same rifle. I just wish MW and magic arrows were a bit cheaper.

Oh well.

As for the name... I like Charlene. I thought about the latin word Sectator, meaning sort of a cross between "hunter" and "suitor" which would be a clever pun, since she's always hitting on the Cloistered Cleric, but Sectator doesn't roll off the tongue well. Plus, I kind of like the idea of the bow having a "name" name, like they do in so many fantasy books... usually something that has a lot of "L"s and an apostrophe in it.

And in retrospect, the bow should have it's own "personality" and shouldn't just take on Isabel's.

[Heliomance]

A Holy [Splitting] Force Bow of Baneful Smite... I like it! :smallbiggrin: It'll need a shorter name though... it's a work in progress. :smallamused:

I call her Vera.

[missmvicious]

Hmm... a challenger appears:

Vera or Charlene?

And why?

[Eldariel]

Don't worry about losing small amounts of XP. First of all, individual arrows are so cheap that to craft them, the amount of XP isn't enough to put oneself even one encounter behind in terms of composite experience. Second, remember that lower level characters in parties gain more XP than their higher level cousins so even the extremely small difference, if it grows big enough to carry over to the next encounter, is bridged up.

And yeah, like I already outlined in the handbook you generally want generic enhancements (Splitting, Force, Collision, etc.) on your bow and then arrows tailored for particular enemies; +1 Cold Iron Chaotic Outsider Bane Evil Outsider Bane arrows for instance are ~400gp a piece (well, more due to Cold Iron's anti-enchanting properties) and, given the "Good"-portion of the damage reduction handled by Holy already, can punish any Tanar'ri this side of Epic at +4 enhancement and +4d6 (+4) damage through any DR on top of any enhancements on the bow. Fire one from +1 Splitting Force Collision Holy Bow (+10 enhancement, maximum for pre-epic weapons) with Greater Magic Weapon at CL 20 (achievable around level 13-15 in standard campaigns, earlier with more sources) on it would be firing:
2x +9 arrows with +14 + 6d6 for damage.

At 20 Strength, Strongarm Bracers and the appropriate Composite Longbow bow, we're talking about 2d6+5 Str+5 Enhancement+4 Bane Enhancement Bonus+5 Collision+2d6 Holy+4d6 Banes, averaging 42 damage per arrow, 84 per hit attack action (due to Splitting). And the damage reduction is handled by Force so strictly speaking, Holy would be unnecessary and could be removed cutting 2d6 from the damage. Cold Iron would not be a necessity either which of course frees up some gold as it's expensive to enchant.


As such I'd suggest Splitting Force bow as a priority; Holy Bows are all good but with Force handling damage reductions, Holiness is less priority even if it's good for damage, and cool in its own way. Splitting is by far the biggest force multiplier an archer can get, and Force solves about 6000 different problems an archer faces simultaneously (the only creatures immune to Force are Force Dragons, creatures under the supershort duration spell Forceward, and that one damn thing I always forget so that's a very, very rare issue and even then, Force can be turned off just fine).

[horseboy]

Charlene was a half sarcastic FMJ reference. Let's just hope she doesn't end up like Pyle.

[herrhauptmann]

Regarding names:
I'd vote Vera over Charlene. Cuz I like the sound of it. (But I think Vera is a Firefly reference)
Of course, if you've ever known someone who went by the name or nickname Hank, you could name it after them.
My old roommate was a Harold. He went by Hank. So Hanks energy bow became Harolds energy bow. To further disguise the reference, it became the Bow of Harald.
Don't see a price breakdown done, so here's the one I use:
Lets see, energy bow is 22600 for a +2 composite.
The +2 itself costs 8000gold (14600 for the other good stuff)
So a +1 energy bow would be 2000gold for the +1, and 14600 for the rest (16600 total).
A +3 energy bow, or a +1 Holy energy bow would be 18000 for the +3, and 14600 for the rest, so 32600 total.


edit:
Firefly vs Fullmetal Jacket.
I vote for Charlene now (though in an even fight, Vera still sounds better)

[ericgrau]

Generally you put bane on the arrows not the bow so you can swap them out as needed. Also a good way to switch metal types or to add useful properties like ghost touch or that one in MiC that hits targets with faerie fire. Revealing I think; and get some way to find invisible or hiding foes yourself.

[missmvicious]

I'm not sure what Firefly is. Sounds sci-fi.

I saw Full Metal Jacket once when a bunch of my friends thought I just had to see it because it was the best. I liked the Sergeant. He reminded me of my grandpa. When Vera was suggested I thought you were talking about Vera Wang who is famous for her elegant wedding dresses. I thought it would reference the bow's elegant design. I feel kind of stupid now. :smallredface:

[Daftendirekt]

I call her Vera.

Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

[missmvicious]

Don't worry about losing small amounts of XP.

Fine points, Eldariel. And I've been pretty lucky so far with our XP gambling house-rule. I rarely ever lose XP for the effort, but I still don't like putting my XP on the chopping block willy nilly. After doing the math about the XP sacrifice, you're right. I won't be set back much if I lose, and we gain an archer that can wreck a wide array of opponents.

[Andreaz]

There's no need to get +2 arrows if your bow has a greater enhancement than that. If you have easy access to a full CL Greater Magic Weapon, neither bow nor arrows need to be more than +1.

[missmvicious]

Maybe, but isn't the prerequisite on the Force Bow that it be +2?

And besides, I don't have Greater Magic Weapon in my spell book yet. I've got Magic Weapon. :smalleek:

I might see if I can snag a scroll of it for my studies while I'm in town. But essentially, I was just going to put the minimum enhancement (+1) on the arrows so that I can give them the after effect I want.

So, it's now a [Holy] Splitting Force Bow with arrows of Baneful Smite! "Holy" is in brackets in case I don't have the money for it.

I'm sensing the name Doppletwanger or Doppleranger tapping me on the back of my mind, but those sound awfully silly. Maybe I should just stick with the fantasy naming rules and go with L'aruviel or La'la'la'la'la'la'la'la''''' to really get those "L"s and apostrophes in there. L'aruvial sounds elvish, and our village is so remote, we've never met an Elf (or technically, we met one, but just thought it was a member of the Fey), so I don't think that name is appropriate.

So:
Vera, for the elegant style.
Charlene for grandpa.
Doppletwanger for the whole "Splitty McStabstab" aspect of hitting twice.


And also, I'm reading up on the Force Bow. Now she can't bypass DR. She can hit the crap out of incorporeal monsters... but we haven't encountered any of those yet. So the arrows will definitely be a get-them-right-now kind of thing. And also, if she runs out of arrows before we run out of demons, she's back to climbing up a tree, hiding, and waiting for us to finish the fight.

*Perusing the PHB*

I get it. It was the Holy that made it bypass DR, because it's Positive Energy. So, it's a tough choice. Load up on Holy arrows and get the Splitting Force Bow or scrape together every CP I've got and get a Holy Splitting Force Bow and let the Ranger make her own dang arrows? I mean... she has Craft: Weapon-smithing and her father is an Expert Blacksmith. Maybe I should just make her meet me halfway, here.

I wish I understood how the Crusader was so good at bypassing DR. Maybe I could get a bow that did what he did... just ignore all hardness/DR.

[DoctorGlock]

How are you running out of arrows? The force bow does not use ammo. Also, as a created force effect it is not a real weapon, thus no DR.

Also ranged power attack FTW

[Heliomance]

Vera is indeed a reference to Firefly, a very good sci-fi programme. One of the characters produces a ludicrously overblown gun and describes in loving detail just how much overkill is involved in it, finishing off with "I call her Vera. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ICallHerVera)"

[Greenish]

I'm not sure what Firefly is. <snip> When Vera was suggested I thought you were talking about Vera Wang who is famous for her elegant wedding dresses. I thought it would reference the bow's elegant design. I feel kind of stupid now. :smallredface:I have no idea who Vera Wang is, so we're even.


And also, I'm reading up on the Force Bow. Now she can't bypass DR.Wait, when you say "Force Bow", do you mean a bow with the Force Property (MIC) or the Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)?


I wish I understood how the Crusader was so good at bypassing DR.Either Mountain Hammer line of maneuvers or Shards of Granite feat.

[Andreaz]

The +2 is not mandatory of the bow's work at all. Rather, the item itself has a bunch of unique properties and happens to be +2.
But I digress.

If you can't have max-cl (and not max ranger cl...that's half cl), there's little gain by keeping the weapon at a minimum enhancement.
And the arrow properties are twofold.
If you use the bow's self-create ammo, it's 2d6 Force damage. It's an energy type (I don't recall if there's any Force energy resistance/immunity. Probably is). If you use normal arrows, then it's just normal arrows.

A +3 splitting AllianceBane bow (called "Vera") firing +1 flaming icy burst holy arrows would, in the end, fire "+3 split AllianceBane Flaming Icy Burst Holy" attacks.

[missmvicious]

Also, as a created force effect it is not a real weapon, thus no DR.

Also ranged power attack FTW

We're 100% on that being RAW? Here's what I found:

PHB, pg. 307
damage reduction (DR): A special defense that allows a creature
to ignore a set amount of damage from most weapons, unarmed
attacks, or natural weapons, but not from energy attacks, spells,
spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. The number in a
creature’s damage reduction is the amount of hit points of damage
the creature ignores. The information after the slash indicates the
type of weapon (such as magic, silver, or evil) that overcomes the
damage reduction. Some damage reduction, such as that of a
barbarian, is not overcome by any type of weapon.

Greenish says they're not spells, and they don't count as an Energy Attack.

PHB, pg. 308
energy damage: Damage caused by one of five types of energy
(not counting positive and negative energy): acid, cold, electricity,
fire, and sonic.

And it doesn't seem to qualify as an SLA or a supernatural ability.

Please present the rules that state the Force Bow bypasses DR, because it would make things a whole lot easier if it were true. That would mean I wouldn't have to buy special arrows to cut through DR... I could just let her use the Force Arrows that are magically generated.

[missmvicious]

Wait, when you say "Force Bow", do you mean a bow with the Force Property (MIC) or the Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)?

Oops. I'm talking about the Energy Bow. Like with Hank's Energy Bow link you sent. But "Energy" seems to be misleading. According to the text on the link, it uses a "Force" effect, which isn't an "Energy" type according to PHB.

[Greenish]

Please present the rules that state the Force Bow bypasses DRMIC page 35.

Now, if you were talking about Energy Bow…

[DoctorGlock]

It appears that I have conflated the two.

[missmvicious]

:smalleek:

*looking at Greenish and Doctor Glock with bated breath*

Go on...

[Eldariel]

Force weapon property from Magic Item Compendium allows you to ignore all damage reduction by virtue of being Force damage. Magic Missile ignores all damage reduction due to being spell damage. However, Force damage annoyingly lacks definition beyond being able to hit incorporeals. It isn't energy damage, it isn't weapon damage, it isn't positive/negative energy damage. All of those are defined, force damage falls under none of them.

So I suppose, by RAW Energy Bow might be subjected to damage reduction due to it being a weapon attack that lacks any definitions that allow it to overcome DR. I'd chalk that up to shoddy editing, but if running by that I'd probably look at "Force"-property from Magic Item Compendium instead. It's a +2 ability that explicitly ignores all DR. RAW is really annoyingly incomplete when it comes to Force-effects in general tho as they lack in terms of definitions. We know that Force-effects:
- Affect Incorporeals without miss chance
- Extend to the Ethereal plane
- Are indestructable by mundane means

However, beyond that there's little information; generally they ignore all types of damage resistance and are unaffected by mundane effects such as gravity, wind and similar but there's no such designation for Force-arrows so by RAW they function as wooden arrows made of force or some such.

[missmvicious]

So... you're saying it could go either way depending on how Force is interpreted?

Based on that, I'm going to let my DM just read this thread. I'd like to know how he interprets it before I plunk down the party's life savings to get a Ranger a bow she doesn't immediately need if arrows can do the same thing for pennies on the dollar CPs on the GP.

[Eldariel]

So... you're saying it could go either way depending on how Force is interpreted?

Based on that, I'm going to let my DM just read this thread. I'd like to know how he interprets it before I plunk down the party's life savings to get a Ranger a bow she doesn't immediately need if arrows can do the same thing for pennies on the dollar CPs on the GP.

Energy Bow can go either way. Force property [Magic Item Compendium Page 35] is unambiguous as the "ignores DR"-effect is explicitly spelled out on the weapon ability, but the Energy Bow doesn't have it explicitly spelled out. As such, I reckon your suggested course of action is optimal.

+1 Force bow is 18000 gold, approximately. So there. +1 Splitting Bow would be 32000 (so 16000 to craft); that would give you all the damage you could ever want given a steady supply of Cold Iron/Alchemical Silver arrows and eventual Force or Holy on the bow itself. Energy Bow is about 22000.

[Yuki Akuma]

Personally I like having a generically enchanted bow with specific ammunition for different occassions. My archers tend to channel Green Arrow a lot.

This is why I don't play archers very often, I end up doing more bookkeeping than when I play casters. >.>

[Socratov]

Vera is indeed a reference to Firefly, a very good sci-fi programme. One of the characters produces a ludicrously overblown gun and describes in loving detail just how much overkill is involved in it, finishing off with "I call her Vera. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ICallHerVera)"

damn you! now I wasted another hour of my life on tvtropes.com... it really is an insane time sinkhole...

on topic: I would go with the energybow, since it not only flies force effects (as decribed in the link given somehwere above), but also allow you to make powerattacks, and automatically adjusts to your str modifier. Why is this last bit importaint? well, consider this: you have a +2 strength composite longbow, suddenly your friendly neighbourhood cleric decides to give you a nice casting of bull's strength to go nuts. You will find that the enhancement bonus of strength does nothing. Another situation is this: you are fighting with a +2 strength composite longbow and you suddenly get hit by the enemy mage with a ray of enfeeblement, dropping your strength by a whiopping 4 points. suddenly you don't only lose the damage benefits, you get a -2 penalty to to hit for not beïng strong enough to use your bow. In both situations, Hank's Energybow simply adjusts, no questions asked, no penalties incurred. the icing on the cake beïng you can make ranged powerattacks now

(bolded for emphasis) Stock for epic arrows in case you encounter a force dragon, which causes the bow to be useless.

also, when you have the money, enchant your energybow with splitting for more awesomesauce.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you encounter a Force Dragon and aren't extremely high level yourself, generally the correct response is 'surrender'...

[Socratov]

If you encounter a Force Dragon and aren't extremely high level yourself, generally the correct response is 'surrender'...

oh really? the fact that you need epic arrows kind of gives it away don't you think?

the correct response to encountering a force dragon at not extremely high levels is running away, evasive maneuvers, and a PHB to the DM's face...

[Eldariel]

oh really? the fact that you need epic arrows kind of gives it away don't you think?

the correct response to encountering a force dragon at not extremely high levels is running away, evasive maneuvers, and a PHB to the DM's face...

The correct response is not to piss it off. They're Neutral by default. I don't see why one would try to kill you, or bother to try and kill you. Though something like a Young Adult Force is still perfectly beatable pre-epic.

[Doug Lampert]

oh really? the fact that you need epic arrows kind of gives it away don't you think?

the correct response to encountering a force dragon at not extremely high levels is running away, evasive maneuvers, and a PHB to the DM's face...

Typically you can't run away from dragons except via teleport. Nor can you evade RAW. Surrender is better odds.

Dragons normally have maxed out search, spot, and listen for their fairly high HD values. An overleveled dragon's senses exceed yours by more than the bonus you get for its size. Dragons have some of the best senses in the game baring gods. Dragons have some of the fastest movement speeds iin the game baring teleportation powers.

Dragons aren't very manueverable in the air, but, There's no facing 3.x D&D. At the start of its turn a dragon can be flying any direction it wants to be flying, which means that it can get to you and hit you. It can't turn quickly while moving (unless it spent one of its absurd number of feats on wingover or something), but there's no rule about dragons maintaining facing between moves.

[herrhauptmann]

I get it. It was the Holy that made it bypass DR, because it's Positive Energy. So, it's a tough choice. Load up on Holy arrows and get the Splitting Force Bow or scrape together every CP I've got and get a Holy Splitting Force Bow and let the Ranger make her own dang arrows? I mean... she has Craft: Weapon-smithing and her father is an Expert Blacksmith. Maybe I should just make her meet me halfway, here.

I wish I understood how the Crusader was so good at bypassing DR. Maybe I could get a bow that did what he did... just ignore all hardness/DR.
In no particular order.
The crusader is probably ignoring DR with a variety of maneuvers.

I'd really suggest saying "force bow" if you're talking about the MiC property. And saying "Energy Bow" or perhaps the full name, when referring to Hanks Energy Bow.

It's been said, but:
With Hanks energy bow, you don't NEED arrows to hurt someone. Having arrows will just let you put extra properties on it when you need it. Chances are, I don't think you'll need to use arrows.

The Holy weapons should be bypassing DR because it makes the weapon [Good]. Nothing to do with positive energy there.


[COLOR="Purple"]Maybe, but isn't the prerequisite on the Force Bow that it be +2?
I refer you to my price breakdown.
It's a useful process when you see some weapon/armor you like, but don't want some of the other abilities.

When buying a specific magic weapon, there's a few things you pay for:
MW Weapon.
+X cost (all standard abilities, +1, +2, holy, flaming, etc)
Other abilities



Don't see a price breakdown done, so here's the one I use:
Lets see, energy bow is 22600 for a +2 composite.
The +2 itself costs 8000gold (14600 for the other good stuff)
So a +1 energy bow would be 2000gold for the +1, and 14600 for the rest (16600 total).
A +3 energy bow, or a +1 Holy energy bow would be 18000 for the +3, and 14600 for the rest, so 32600 total.


Or, we look at the shatterspike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#shatterspike).
Price: 4315.
MW Weapon: 315
+1 Sword: 2000.
Remainder? 2000 gold for the shatterspike.
WIth that, we can now make any weapon a shatterspike.

Shatterspike Greatsword? 4350

+1 Holy greataxe, adding the shatterspike enchantment?
+1 Holy: A +3 cost. 18000
MW Greataxe: 320
Shatterspike: 2000
Total? 20320gold.

Lifedrinker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker) 40320 for a +1 lifedrinker greataxe.
MW greataxe: 320
+1 weapon: 2000
Lifedrinker: 38000.

+3 Magebane lifedrinker trident:
+3 Magebane: +4 cost. So 32000
MW Trident: 315
Lifedrinker: 38000
Total? 70315 gold.

Process breaks down slightly in Epic weapons though.

And yes, you should have the ranger contribute something to the excellent weapon you're buying/building for so that they can contribute.