Build help/challenge: against wizards

[Morph Bark]

While I am currently enjoying my Dungeoncrashing Monkbarian who punches everyone into the ground, I'm already thinking about my next character, who would need to be able to stand against all sorts of opponents, effectively being the "tank". This would include when fighting spellcasters. Even if I don't get to use him, it would be a nice exercise, or as later back-up.

As such, I'd like him to have:
High saves
High touch AC
Spell resistance
Mettle
Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Slippery Mind

Plus the Goad feat. Boosting the spell resistance could be done with spells or the Boost Spell Resistance feat, since I think I'll have enough feat slots left. If not, 10 + character level should be enough some of the time, with saves covering the rest.

What are the best builds to go with this? One build I had had to give up on two things, which I'd rather not do.

[Flickerdart]

Why Goad? Goad sucks. Likewise, Slippery Mind is strictly inferior to immunity to mind-affecting altogether.

[DonutBoy12321]

Karsites are the best Wizard-killers. +2 LA, but gets Spell Resistance, and more importantly, the ability to heal from a spell if it doesn't pierce their Spell Resistance.

[Curmudgeon]

If you want to find where you can obtain such things, the Lists of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff) are your go-to destination.

[gbprime]

First off, I wouldn't want to play at a table with a character that has all that. Classic characters in comic and legend have several strengths and a glaring weakness that his companions must help cover. This build endeavors to have no glaring weakness, and as such anything the DM can seriously threaten it with will utterly flatten the other characters!

That said, let's fulfill your request.

Fighter 4 - Cloistered Cleric 1 - Divine Oracle X - Pious Templar 1
Take Parrying Shield feat and be Drow Elf or Hagspawn

This gets you great fort and will saves, adds your shield bonus to your touch AC, improved uncanny, mettle, evasion that works in heavy armor, and spell resistance based on character level. No slippery mind, though, but you could accomplish with cleric spells easily enough.

And don't forget the Devotion feats!

[Randomguy]

Unseelie Fey (Winter) Magic-Blooded Karsite (LA buyoff) Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 3/Battledancer 1/Deepwarden 5/Fist of the Forest 1/Survivor 3

Improved Uncanny Dodge, Slippery Mind, Mettle and Evasion. Cha to AC twice, Con to AC twice, Cha to saves twice versus spells and SR 10 + class level (so 30), which can be boosted with feats.


What's wrong with this build? You're the one that posted it. Also, I think you get cha to saves 3 times rather than twice, and I think that's for everything (once from paladin, once from blackguard and once from hexblade). Of course, for this one you have to be evil, but you can still salvage most of the benefits if you're good or neutral.The main downside is you only get cha to saves once.

What books are battledancer, deepwarden and survivor from?

Oh, and If you become capable of spontaneously using level 2 spells (Either hexblade 8 (not that great) or suel Arcanamach 2) then you can take 2 levels of swordsage and take the aescetic mage feat for cha to AC another time. Also, you can pick up some nonmagical teleportation from your swordsage maneuvers.

[Morph Bark]

What's wrong with this build? You're the one that posted it.

I want to improve on it, if possible.


Also, I think you get cha to saves 3 times rather than twice, and I think that's for everything (once from paladin, once from blackguard and once from hexblade).

The idea is to get another ACF on Paladin that gets Cha to AC as a deflection bonus, rather than Divine Grace. :smalltongue:


What books are battledancer, deepwarden and survivor from?

Battledancer is Dragon Compendium. Survivor is Savage Species. Deepwarden is Races of Stone and, which I forgot when I first posted that build, a Dwarf-only PrC.

[gkathellar]

Should we assume you're not looking to be a caster or manifester?

You're looking for a Serenity Paladin 2/Pious Templar 1 for the saves and Mettle. Stack on levels that get you Wis to AC to your leisure, there are something like six different ways to do it and most of them stack - that'll get you your AC and Touch AC. Evasion and IUD can be gotten as a package with Rogue or the Steadfast Monk from Dragon 310, neither requiring major investment IIRC. Spell Resistance is the only real toughie, unless you're willing to drop in some Racial LA.

Here, try this. (http://http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff)

[Morph Bark]

Should we assume you're not looking to be a caster or manifester?

Not primarily at least.


Stack on levels that get you Wis to AC to your leisure, there are something like six different ways to do it and most of them stack

Really? The ways I know of to get Wis to AC don't stack because they all refer to the Monk class ability. :smallconfused:


Here, try this. (http://http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff)

I should not that I've actually used this to get the build posted before. One of the chief problems though is meeting PrC requirements. That is something I'll definitely need help with.

[gkathellar]

Really? The ways I know of to get Wis to AC don't stack because they all refer to the Monk class ability. :smallconfused:

Off the top of my head - Moon-Warded Ranger 2, Swordsage 2, Saint, and Monk/Ninja/Monk's Belt. Of those, Monk and Saint are probably the ones to rule out, which leaves you with Wisx2+Dex+Light Armor until you decide to move on over to the monk's belt.

EDIT: Paladin 2/Moon-Warded Ranger 2/Swordsage 2/Pious Templar 1 requires only three feats to present a strong Wisdom-SAD defense. You can probably do better with Charisma-SAD (some mix of Hexblade 3, Paladin 2, Witch Hunter 1, Battle Dancer 1, Ascetic Mage Monk 1, Arcane Duelist 2 and Mystic Wanderer 1), but then qualification gets tedious and offense becomes even more of a hassle.

[Tyndmyr]

While I am currently enjoying my Dungeoncrashing Monkbarian who punches everyone into the ground, I'm already thinking about my next character, who would need to be able to stand against all sorts of opponents, effectively being the "tank". This would include when fighting spellcasters. Even if I don't get to use him, it would be a nice exercise, or as later back-up.

As such, I'd like him to have:
High saves
High touch AC
Spell resistance
Mettle
Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Slippery Mind

Plus the Goad feat. Boosting the spell resistance could be done with spells or the Boost Spell Resistance feat, since I think I'll have enough feat slots left. If not, 10 + character level should be enough some of the time, with saves covering the rest.

What are the best builds to go with this? One build I had had to give up on two things, which I'd rather not do.

Have you considered a Necropolitan Cleric with a ring of Evasion?

If you want more amusing levels of cheese, Illithid Savant.

[DonutBoy12321]

If you want more amusing levels of cheese, Illithid Savant.

Are there any non-Mind Flayers entry ways into Illithid Savant? Like Half-Illithid and such?

[Morph Bark]

Off the top of my head - Moon-Warded Ranger 2, Swordsage 2, Saint, and Monk/Ninja/Monk's Belt. Of those, Monk and Saint are probably the ones to rule out, which leaves you with Wisx2+Dex+Light Armor until you decide to move on over to the monk's belt.

EDIT: Paladin 2/Moon-Warded Ranger 2/Swordsage 2/Pious Templar 1 requires only three feats to present a strong Wisdom-SAD defense. You can probably do better with Charisma-SAD (some mix of Hexblade 3, Paladin 2, Witch Hunter 1, Battle Dancer 1, Ascetic Mage Monk 1, Arcane Duelist 2 and Mystic Wanderer 1), but then qualification gets tedious and offense becomes even more of a hassle.

I suppose I could try that. Depends on if the DM would allow Swordsage and Monk AC bonus to stack when unarmored, or if that would even work since SS specifies "in light armor".

Where are Moon-Warded Ranger and Mystic Wanderer from?


Have you considered a Necropolitan Cleric with a ring of Evasion?

How would straight Cleric help with getting Mettle, Improved Uncanny Dodge and Slippery Mind?

[Little Brother]

Be X 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/it doesn't matter after this. Take the following feats at these levels:
Martial Study: Leading the Attack (1), Extra Granted Maneuver (3), Martial Study: White Raven Tactics (9)
Maneuvers Known:
Leading the Attack (1/encounter, no recovery mechanic)
Douse the Flames, Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones, and whatever else you need.
Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, White Raven Tactics, and something else(I think)
Stances Known: Punishing Stance, Martial Spirit.

This is, of course, if you are against a full-scale Idiot Crusader. A guy with two actions who heals himself and does good damage is hard to ignore, especially if you take more WB levels for Iron Heart Surge, as the big penalty or losing a Standard action doesn't hurt much.

If you want idiot Crusader, go Unarmed Swordsage 5/Warblade 1/Crusader 1, and, as a Human, you should have enough feats to make it in by level 8.

[Morph Bark]

A very nice build. One which even touches upon a grand total of 28.57% of the first post requested build content.

Sadly, I generally only find >50% acceptable.

[Manateee]

Is Cleric X/Pious Templar 1 out of the question?

Blow a pair of feats to Bind Impulse Boots and spend a couple spell slots for Mind/Precision Immunities and Spell Resistance and you're basically there, but with 19th level Cleric spells.

[gkathellar]

Where are Moon-Warded Ranger and Mystic Wanderer from?

Er ... Dragon 340 and Magic of Faerun respectively, IIRC.

[Little Brother]

A very nice build. One which even touches upon a grand total of 28.57% of the first post requested build content.

Sadly, I generally only find >50% acceptable.Not at all. What I gave you can be tacked onto any build you'll see. If you need me to give you everything, here:

Dragonborn Gold(Or whichever stupid variant gets -2 Dex) Dwarf
Ranger 1/Above/(Chaos)Monk 2/Barbarian 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 5/Paladin of Slaughter or Tyranny 2/Blackguard 2/Hexblade 3/Battledancer 1

Take Steadfast Determination, PA, and Great Fortitude. Take Serenity if you want.

Your AC, before Bracers of Armor, is 10+2x Con+Wis+Cha, you get, if you used Serenity 3xCha+Wis+Con on will saves. You have Mettle, and get a second Will save from Deepwarden. You have Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. If you want to, you can replace Battledancer with Swordsage for Weapon Focus and maneuvers like the concentration checks to saves, but you might just be better off with a second full round action. If you need more Con, you could take the Arctic template, but you'd lose some Cha. With all this multiclassing, your saves are absurdly high.

For moneys, you can buy a 1/day item of Mind Blank, and Mind blank has a duration of 24 hours, for 43200. Feathered Wings give you Ex fight for 10k. A Smoking Warning weapon is a mere 18K, for +5 to initiative and concealment. +6 items for Wis, Con, and Cha will increase your defense dramatically, and for 2K apiece, you can make them intelligent, and so they work in an AMF. You might want Soulfire armor, if there's some way to count as unarmored in armor. I recommend getting a +1 Soulfire outfit, if that doesn't count as armor, and assuming you have the money, because Enervate and company can bone you. Ring of Freedom of Movement are nice to get you next to the wizard.

That help?

[Morph Bark]

Er ... Dragon 340 and Magic of Faerun respectively, IIRC.

I've found Mystic Wanderer in MoF, doesn't really fit with anything else here. Seems to be Cha-based caster focused. I'll check out Dragon 340. Thanks. :smallsmile:


That help?

Very much so, yes, thanks. Your earlier post seemed to just be one of those "generic build advice" posts that pop up in almost every build thread, alongside things like "Druid 20" and such, without actual regard for the contents of the first post.