Size boosts WITHOUT magic?

[Curmudgeon]

For a certain character archetype, the only magic they'll use in combat is an Antimagic Field item. That's pretty spiffy if you're trying to avoid magical attacks, but it does considerably limit things that would help as well.

A size boost when you need it is a great way to power-up: you'll get strength and (usually) reach. That's better than being Large+ all the time, because except when you're fighting you don't have to sweat the squeezing rules, waste time looking for Large size accommodations when the inn is sized for Medium creatures, & c. But getting on-demand size boosts, without magic, is proving frustrating.

All I've come up with is:

Mountain Rage: with a Goliath Barbarian substitution level, you can become Large with what replaces normal rage.
Gluttony Clerical domain: acts like Enlarge Person, but only for 1 round/Cleric level you possess.
Is there anything else? I don't want to be either a Barbarian or Cleric. In fact, I'm trying to make this work with a Knight character; all their class abilities are Extraordinary and will keep working without magic. The problem with Test of Mettle is that enemies can attack with ranged weapons, and that doesn't usually help the Knight. But maybe if the Knight had a reach weapon and could cover 30+' around in melee, those ranged attacks would actually work to the character's advantage as they provoke AoOs.

[Eldariel]

I don't recall any others; though you could certainly make do with reach increases from Deformity: Tall and Aberrant Reach. Of course, those carry their own sets of problems too, being Vile and Aberrant feats respectively.

[deuxhero]

Psionic power Expansion

Be a something that can trade for rage and chain ACFs to get rage then trade rage for mountian rage?

[Rubik]

Psionic power ExpansionThat would work with a Psionics Is Different game.

Also, aren't there dragon drafts (or something) that act like potions and allow you to Polymorph while remaining Ex items?

[Curmudgeon]

Be a something that can trade for rage and chain ACFs to get rage then trade rage for mountian rage?
Nope; it's not an ACF. As a racial substitution level, it's solely for Goliath Barbarians.

I don't recall any others; though you could certainly make do with reach increases from Deformity: Tall and Aberrant Reach. Of course, those carry their own sets of problems too, being Vile and Aberrant feats respectively.
Yeah, I'm already figuring in a +5' natural reach extension via one of those methods. But Knight is a strictly Lawful class, so that shuts out Abyssal Heritor feats entirely. I really don't want to be limited to just Lawful Evil, so that's a problem with Vile feats. Extended Reach (Savage Species, page 34) is the only feat that's not likely to cause problems, and that's at higher levels to afford the ridiculously expensive Silthilar Flexible Spine graft.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is a feat ordered chaos (I think) which either allows you to be lawful and count as chaotic or viceversa; but I can't recall if that aplied to everything or just spell effects. That might allow a Knight with levels in barbarian.

[sreservoir]

Nope; it's not an ACF. As a racial substitution level, it's solely for Goliath Barbarians.

Yeah, I'm already figuring in a +5' natural reach extension via one of those methods. But Knight is a strictly Lawful class, so that shuts out Abyssal Heritor feats entirely. I really don't want to be limited to just Lawful Evil, so that's a problem with Vile feats. Extended Reach (Savage Species, page 34) is the only feat that's not likely to cause problems, and that's at higher levels to afford the ridiculously expensive Silthilar Flexible Spine graft.

if you aren't really going to be able to use magic items, you might as well go for grafts.

[Curmudgeon]

There is a feat ordered chaos (I think) which either allows you to be lawful and count as chaotic or viceversa; but I can't recall if that aplied to everything or just spell effects. That might allow a Knight with levels in barbarian.
It does much less than you thought.

Your alignment is not affected by the Abyssal heritor feats you possess.

if you aren't really going to be able to use magic items, you might as well go for grafts.
So is there a graft for size increase?

[The Gilded Duke]

You could always start out as a larger size? Perhaps some horrible Tauric template abuse? You could probably start out as at least huge size with that. As far as extreme reach on a knight, going with deformity tall and aberrant reach with a reach weapon is probably the best way to go. I once played a rather effective neandrathal barbarian with deformity tall and a longspear.

[Curmudgeon]

A size boost when you need it is a great way to power-up: you'll get strength and (usually) reach. That's better than being Large+ all the time, because except when you're fighting you don't have to sweat the squeezing rules, waste time looking for Large size accommodations when the inn is sized for Medium creatures, & c.

You could always start out as a larger size?
Exactly what I want to avoid.

[Rubik]

Riding a mount means you have the mount's space, and are treated as the mount's size for a few purposes. You can also ride the mount and have it do stuff that you're too small to do.

Also, if you use the shoulders bind of the Phase Cloak soulmeld you don't have to worry about squeezing through tight spaces, since you move on the ethereal plane. So long as you can fit in the place where you stop, you should be good (and make sure to get the fastest speed you can so you're more likely to find a larger spot to stop).

[deuxhero]

Technically, by RAW ex-barbs don't lose rage ACFs for "falling".

[Curmudgeon]

Technically, by RAW ex-barbs don't lose rage ACFs for "falling".

Ex-Barbarians

A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge).
I don't know of any "rage ACFs" that would grant a size increase anyway, but if it's still rage it's gone when you become lawful.

[Keegan__D]

There's a feat in Bastards and Bloodlines called Large and makes you large. It doesn't technically have a prerequisite of race, but it's strongly implied you have mixed heritage (could go a few generations back).

Custom magic item of Enlarge Person costs 2,000 if I mathed right. Find a wizard, have him make you some Giant's Boots.

[sreservoir]

There's a feat in Bastards and Bloodlines called Large and makes you large. It doesn't technically have a prerequisite of race, but it's strongly implied you have mixed heritage (could go a few generations back).

Custom magic item of Enlarge Person costs 2,000 if I mathed right. Find a wizard, have him make you some Giant's Boots.

that's third party, no?

[Slipperychicken]

From PF, there's a feat called Monkey-Lunge, which increases reach by 5ft on your turn, in exchange for -2 AC.

[deuxhero]

@Curmudgeon

Exactly, from uber strict flying DMG launch RAW Mountain Rage!=Rage.

[Curmudgeon]

@Curmudgeon

Exactly, from uber strict flying DMG launch RAW Mountain Rage!=Rage.
But again, it's only available for Goliath Barbarians.

[sreservoir]

stoneblessed should be able to get around that, if you care to spend three levels getting basically nothing useful.

[Curmudgeon]

stoneblessed should be able to get around that, if you care to spend three levels getting basically nothing useful.
That wastes 3 levels just to get the Goliath half of the requirement. That leaves further wasted level(s) to get the Barbarian requirement (even more levels, or 1-2 instances of the Extra Rage feat, to make the ability useful for a typical day's combat). I don't want either of those classes, and I certainly don't want arguments about whether Mountain Rage is still available to a lawful Ex-Barbarian ─ and if so, that means Extra Rage doesn't work and I'd need even more Barbarian levels. :smallmad:

[Keegan__D]

stoneblessed should be able to get around that, if you care to spend three levels getting basically nothing useful.

Bastards & Bloodlines also has a feat to count as any race for meeting prerequisites like that. Old Blood.
The three levels aren't that bad. Accelerated climbing and +2 Con along with the mountain rage is about the same as a racial paragon class. Though, it's irrelevant in this case, as barbs lose rage when they're lawful.


that's third party, no?

Yes, Bastards & Bloodlines is d20. Does the OP have a specific problem with third party?

[Curmudgeon]

Yeah, it's got to be all WotC-approved material.

[Urpriest]

I was going to make a comment about how a campaign in which this character is plausible is already specific enough that you could also assume most buildings are made for Large+ creatures (after all, Medium creatures need to squeeze in buildings made for Tiny people as well, IIRC).

But then I thought of something constructive to say!

Being mounted is perhaps the right track, you just need a mount that you have some degree of pokeball-like access to, and that sticks around in an AMF. That or a construct in a nonmagical extradimensional space. Hmm...there are enough possibilities that something should probably exist somewhere. I can't think of any.

A figurine of wondrous power could work. Activating them would have to happen outside of the AMF, but it's unclear whether they deactivate inside. If you know which fights will require your extra reach and which won't you could activate it ahead of time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nope; it's not an ACF. As a racial substitution level, it's solely for Goliath Barbarians. Stoneblessed, from the same book, is a three level class that lets you qualify as a Goliath.

How this would work with requiring a non-lawful alignment and being a Knight... is another problem entirely.

[herrhauptmann]

Hmmm...
If you're a grappling type, the feat Jotunbrud lets you count as Large if it's advantageous to you. Human only. It is NOT powerful build. Does NOT affect weapon size. But I'm sure you knew that restriction already.

You've probably found this already but:
Tiny von bigmclargehuge http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6428.0
It might have something of use for you.



How this would work with requiring a non-lawful alignment and being a Knight... is another problem entirely.
Maybe:
1-Race half orc. Take paragon class. Grants rage. Even if lawful.
2-Stoneblessed:Goliath.
3-Goliath Barbarian racial substitution.
4-Become lawful, start taking Knight. Even if you lose your barbarian rage powers, you've still got your paragon rage powers. And I think the racial sub should work on the paragon rage as well. (Paragon rage does benefit from anything which affects barbarian rage)

Moot point though, Curmudgeon doesn't want to take Stoneblessed.

[Talionis]

Tome of Battle their is a Stone Dragon stance that makes you do damage as if you were a size larger. Can be taken with martial stance feat.

[Curmudgeon]

Tome of Battle their is a Stone Dragon stance that makes you do damage as if you were a size larger. Can be taken with martial stance feat.
I'm much more interested in things that give reach; damage isn't as important. Martial Stance (Dancing Blade Form) is almost what I want, but that Iron Heart stance has a fatal flaw: it only grants +5' reach on your turn, so it's useless for generating more movement-related attacks of opportunity.

[The Gilded Duke]

Extend Reach from Savage Species gives you +5 reach if you have a tentacle or pseudopod attack. It gives the reach to all of your attacks instead of just the tentacle. So going with a lawful evil human knight.

1. Aberrant Blood
B. Inhuman Reach
3. Deepspawn
6. Extend Reach
9. Vile Deformity
12. Deformity Tall

Gives you 20 feet of natural reach, or 40 with a spiked chain. Could make everything happen faster by making a Pact Insidious or Worshiping an Elder Evil.

[Tyndmyr]

I see someone beat me to pretty much all the things I had thought of for reach.

There's also a few ways to boost weapon size(strongarm bracers, monkey grip, etc), if that helps.

[Wings of Peace]

I know you said you wanted to avoid starting off large. Do you also want to avoid adding size increasing templates to something that was originally small/tiny category?

[dextercorvia]

What base race are you wanting to begin as?

[herrhauptmann]

How about being a Choker?
Size small, 10ft reach. +4 grapple, which offsets their size penalty.
If you can boost size beyond that (difficult for aberrations), they'll be medium/large and have a grapple like a large/huge creature.

How much reach do you really need?
If you're going to be fighting in an AMF, you only need to be able to reach everything inside the AMF (10ft emanation)

[Curmudgeon]

What base race are you wanting to begin as?
Dwarf is what I'm aiming for, though the Stoneblessed shenanigan route is a possibility. With decent reach, I'm hoping that Knight/Dwarven Defender ends up being a decent battlefield control combo.

How much reach do you really need?
If you're going to be fighting in an AMF, you only need to be able to reach everything inside the AMF (10ft emanation)
With the Dwarven Defender movement restriction (i.e., none) I need to reach everybody I can irk with the Knight's Challenge.

The AMF has little to nothing to do with the character's reach; it's there to protect against incoming ranged magic, mostly. The reach is so I can take down any opponents well before they get close.

[herrhauptmann]

Have you seen the devoted defender PrC from sword and fist? I'm not sure if 3.0 sources are allowed, but it provides a semirespectable defensive boost without limiting you to a single square. It also allows you the option of countering attacks on an ally, or hitting someone who attacks your ally.

So stoneblessed dwarven defender... Have you decided on which race/template you're going to start as before you take stoneblessed?


I know AMF has nothing to do with reach. It's 10ft radius emanation centered on you.
But if the point of AMF was to strip enemies of most of their defenses (like I thought), then having 20 feet of reach would be useless, as it would mean you're attacking enemies outside your AMF. As that isn't the point of the AMF...

[herrhauptmann]

With the Dwarven Defender movement restriction (i.e., none) I need to reach everybody I can irk with the Knight's Challenge.

So lots of AOOs then?
You probably know most of the tricks listed here already, but here's a thread where I was working on an AOO-centric character. (Dual wielding spinning swords)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196596

[sreservoir]

Yeah, it's got to be all WotC-approved material.

WotC-approved, eh, but not necessarily first-party?

I'm sure something can be dug up from the depths of dragon magazine, I'll check.

[Person_Man]

I know you've probably seen my Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) and ways to increase size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732) threads.

For your non-magical size and reach increases, here's what I've got (some of which has already been mentioned):

Half-Minotaur: If small or medium, your base size increases by one size category. +1 LA. Dragon 313.
Half-Ogre template: If small or medium, your base size increases by one size category. +1 LA in Dragon 313
Titanic template: Size becomes Gargantuan. Only effects Animal or Vermin of medium size or smaller. But if your DM is willing to let you play an awakened animal... MMII.
Reach weapon: Doubles reach.
Aberration Blood -> Inhuman Reach feats: +5 ft. Lords of Madness.
Bloodstorm Blade 2: Ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons count can melee attacks, allowing things like Power Attack and Knockback and Scorpion's Grasp to apply to them (allowing you to Bull Rush or Grapple at a range). This essentially increases the range of your melee attacks to however far you can accurately throw, though it does nothing for your threatened area. Tome of Battle pg 100.
Blood Wind (Cler/Wiz 1): Swift Action spell that lets you make a full attack with natural weapons or unarmed strikes as if they were ranged weapons with an increment of 20 ft. Spell Compendium pg 33.
Dancing Blade Form (Iron Heart 5 stance): +5 ft during your turn only (ie, doesn't help with AoO). Doesn't stack with other manuevers. Tome of Battle pg 67.
Extended Reach feat(req tentacle like limbs, provided by Inhuman Reach): +5 ft. Savage Species.
Long Reach feat: 5 to 10 ft of reach with shortspear or spear, 10 to 15 ft of reach with longspear. Both only work on your action and do not increase your threatened area. Poorly written, because by RAW if you're Fine/Tiny/Large/Huge/etc, using Long Reach still gives you 5-15 ft of reach without changing your threatened area. But a reasonable DM will just give you +5 ft of reach. Regional requirement. Unapproachable East pg 44.
Lunge feat: -2 to AC to increase reach of melee attacks by 5 ft until the end of your turn (ie, doesn't help with AoO). Pathfinder.
Master of Vipers 5: Can extend snake hands 2 ft per Master of Vipers level (so max of 20 ft at level 10). Weird Yuan-Ti only PrC. But a nice DM might let others use it. Serpent Kingdoms pg 163.
Willing Deformity -> Deformity Tall feats: +5 ft. Heroes of Horror.


Now if you're just looking for a Knight/Whatever who uses minimal magic in general but is willing to use some Supernatural stuff, you may want to look at:

Landforged Walker: Plant Shape ability allows you to Wildshape into plants, sizes Small to Huge. Notable in that your effective Wildshape level is based on your character level, and that you can turn into a Huge size at ECL 10. It also gives 4/5 divine casting progression, which is very useful. Secrets of Xen'driks.
Wind Cloak soulmeld (bound to shoulders): Gives you 2 + 2 * (essentia) DR/- against ranged attacks, plus the ability to Deflect Arrows 1 + essentia times per round without needing a free hand. Since Deflect Arrows works automatically, this soulmeld can pretty much completely negates most ranged attacks against you.
Entomanothrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a): Has a (potentially big) Supernatural alternate form just like a Lycanthrope, but changes into a vermin (which are generally better then animals, and have fewer hit die, and grants immunity to mind-affecting effects). +2 LA +vermin hit dice. Online.
Warshaper 3: +5 ft with natural weapons when using an alternate form or wild shape. Comp Warrior.
Anything that grants free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) can essentially be used to extend your reach, especially Immediate or reactive movement (Broken One's Sacrifice, Greaves of Aundair, Flicker mystery, Formation Expert, Evasive Reflexes, etc).
Similarly, anything that limit's your enemy's movement (ie, battlefield control) decreases the need for increased reach.


For your general concept of Big Knight, I would go with Warforged Knight 4/Anything 1/Landforged Walker 5/Anything 10. That gives you huge size without any wasted Feats (except Skill Focus or Ironwood Body - you need one as a Landforged Walker pre-req).

If it's more important for you to not use magic and be a dwarf, I would go with some sort of Knight/Bloodstorm Blade combo. That way you could kill ranged enemies in a variety of ways without having to move.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

PM me if you want the templates to get you from diminuitive to large.

There's a 10 level PrC to get you a size boost but its evil...

Shame you want to be in an AMF because there go three siz

[Godskook]

Is it possible to be large-sized, but wearing a ring of reduce person(forget the book, saw it in AGC) so as to be medium-sized normally? While this does utilize a magic item, it does so in a way that's incredibly compatible with your AMF fight-starter, since turning the AMF on will naturally grow you to large size.

[El Dorado]

Pathfinder's Advanced Player's Guide (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#combat-patrol) introduced the Combat Patrol feat. It doesn't increase your size but it can increase your threatened area.


Combat Patrol (Combat)
You range across the battlefield, dealing with threats wherever they arise.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Mobility, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you may set up a combat patrol, increasing your threatened area by 5 feet for every 5 points of your base attack bonus. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may make attacks of opportunity against any opponent in this threatened area that provokes attacks of opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks, provided your total movement before your next turn does not exceed your speed. Any movement you make provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

[Curmudgeon]

Yeah, it's got to be all WotC-approved material.

Pathfinder's Advanced Player's Guide (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#combat-patrol) introduced the Combat Patrol feat.
Pathfinder stuff isn't WotC-approved.

[killem2]

Is there perhaps a curse you could obtain? Like something along the lines of a werewolf. Not sure if that will increase enough in size though.

[Godskook]

Pathfinder's Advanced Player's Guide (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html#combat-patrol) introduced the Combat Patrol feat. It doesn't increase your size but it can increase your threatened area.

1.O_O
2.Checks dates on my homebrew and said pathfinder book

Amazing how they came up with a similar feat functionality as I did at the same time I did.

[Urpriest]

Is there perhaps a curse you could obtain? Like something along the lines of a werewolf. Not sure if that will increase enough in size though.

Being a Large lycanthrope takes a pretty big chunk of levels, more than Stoneblessed would. Plus, it's arguable how Alternate Form et al interacts with an AMF, and I'm not sure which side Curmudgeon has decided to consider incontestable gospel.

[Curmudgeon]

Plus, it's arguable how Alternate Form et al interacts with an AMF, and I'm not sure which side Curmudgeon has decided to consider incontestable gospel.
I'm just taking it straight from the rules:

Creating A Lycanthrope

"Lycanthrope" is a template that can be added to any humanoid or giant (referred to hereafter as the base creature). The lycanthrope template can be inherited (for natural lycanthropes) or acquired (for afflicted lycanthropes). Becoming a lycanthrope is very much like multiclassing as an animal and gaining the appropriate Hit Dice.

Size and Type

The base creature’s type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype.

Shapechanger Subtype

A shapechanger has the supernatural ability to assume one or more alternate forms. Many magical effects allow some kind of shape shifting, and not every creature that can change shape has the shapechanger subtype.

[Zaq]

It [Ordered Chaos] does much less than you thought.

If you only read the first sentence, sure. It also says that "Spells and effects keyed to alignment affect you as if you were chaotic, as well as your actual alignment." One of the explicit examples is letting you take a feat with an alignment prereq that you otherwise wouldn't meet. If it works for a feat, it should work for a class, no?

[Crasical]

Isn't Bastards and Bloodlines the book that had that hilarious Lost Tradition feat? So if that was approved for a game, you could play a human cleric with Lost Tradition and Large, and be a practitioner of Giant Magic where you just STRONG things into/out of existance and into different shapes?

[sreservoir]

Isn't Bastards and Bloodlines the book that had that hilarious Lost Tradition feat? So if that was approved for a game, you could play a human cleric with Lost Tradition and Large, and be a practitioner of Giant Magic where you just STRONG things into/out of existance and into different shapes?

more amusing to wu jen/incantatrix, BOB some metamagickers, persist giant size.

[Metahuman1]

Try starting out large and having a reduce person Item handy, then when the Anti Magic Field Item comes into play you get a boost too your size by returning to normal size?

And for Ranged Attacks, maybe a Tower Shield made of Riverine? If I understand the rules correctly the four Items that would be able to harm it couldn't do so if it's inside an Anti Magic Field, and that means it would be something unbreakable you could take cover behind at need. Though that has it's own problems the DM would need to let you homebrew/houserule away in order to make it work with out additional magic items.

[Godskook]

Is it possible to be large-sized, but wearing a ring of reduce person(forget the book, saw it in AGC) so as to be medium-sized normally? While this does utilize a magic item, it does so in a way that's incredibly compatible with your AMF fight-starter, since turning the AMF on will naturally grow you to large size.

Still wondering this one.

[Urpriest]

Still wondering this one.

My guess is that won't work. He wants to be Large when there's room, Medium when there's not, and have AMF on in both cases.

[Godskook]

My guess is that won't work. He wants to be Large when there's room, Medium when there's not, and have AMF on in both cases.

See, I've reread his posts, and I don't see him being concerned with the whole "medium while fighting" issue at all. Sure, he might be, but I don't see it being mentioned. Near as I can see, he just wants to be medium when he's not fighting.

[Curmudgeon]

Urpriest has guessed my goals correctly. I really hate being subject to squeezing rules, and my usual DM uses modules which have standard height ceilings (8', with beams at 7', is pretty typical). Double movement cost, -4 penalty on attack rolls, and a -4 penalty to AC really cramps my style. And trust me, begging for encounters to only happen outdoors is just going to increase the incidence of random bar fights. :smallannoyed:

I see tons of posts from folks merrily extolling the virtues of ever-greater size in D&D. I don't think I've ever read a post where being too large just sucked the life out of a character. But when you've had a game where a character just couldn't fit into the dungeon and could only stay outside and tend the horses and wagons (with a single random encounter thrown at them as a consolation prize), it really brings home the disadvantages. (No, it wasn't my Huge character, but I try to learn from other peoples' mistakes as well as my own.)

[Urpriest]

I see tons of posts from folks merrily extolling the virtues of ever-greater size in D&D. I don't think I've ever read a post where being too large just sucked the life out of a character. But when you've had a game where a character just couldn't fit into the dungeon and could only stay outside and tend the horses and wagons (with a single random encounter thrown at them as a consolation prize), it really brings home the disadvantages. (No, it wasn't my Huge character, but I try to learn from other peoples' mistakes as well as my own.)

Amusingly enough, this changes completely whenever anyone talks about mounted combat. Forums are fun that way.

I've had a wacky idea: a Cloaker mount. A Cloaker at rest is pretty nearly indistinguishable from a cloak, you should be able to wear it without inhibiting your combat ability. If you need the extra reach it wakes up and you've got a Large mount, so your reach will get that little extra boost. Not sure if it's enough, or if there are decent ways to get around the other problems (controlling it nonmagically, for example), but I think that some sort of biologically foldable mount is on the right track.

Edit: Again not directly helpful to you, and not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but one of the things Slight Build actually does do is make you count as one size smaller for squeezing. A Web Enhancement Kobold that's Large as an Ex() would be pretty much just as maneuverable as a Medium character. Not a Dwarf, but a direction.

[Curmudgeon]

Edit: Again not directly helpful to you, and not sure if anyone's mentioned it, but one of the things Slight Build actually does do is make you count as one size smaller for squeezing. A Web Enhancement Kobold that's Large as an Ex() would be pretty much just as maneuverable as a Medium character. Not a Dwarf, but a direction.
That's a thought. Is there some way of gaining Slight Build without being a Kobold? A skinny Dwarf would be droll.

[Zaq]

That's a thought. Is there some way of gaining Slight Build without being a Kobold? A skinny Dwarf would be droll.

Yes, but you won't like it.

Manipulate Form!

In all seriousness, not that I know of.

[Greenish]

Half-minotaur half-ogre kobold would be large with Slight Build. Also pretty silly stats and +2 LA.

It's a shame there aren't more races with Slight Build. I really like it.

[TroubleBrewing]

Half-minotaur half-ogre kobold would be large with Slight Build. Also pretty silly stats and +2 LA.

It's a shame there aren't more races with Slight Build. I really like it.

Wait, are we using the Drag Mag version of Half-Ogre, or the RoD one? Because the Drag version says "same as the base creature if it did not change size category". So you can actually apply Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre (as printed in the same magazine) for +1 LA total.

Ye gods how I hate game designers sometimes.

[Greenish]

Wait, are we using the Drag Mag version of Half-Ogre, or the RoD one? Because the Drag version says "same as the base creature if it did not change size category". So you can actually apply Half-Minotaur and Half-Ogre (as printed in the same magazine) for +1 LA total.We're talking about the template, obviously, since we're applying it to a kobold. A kobold, which starts at Small, and thus grows in size from each template, ending up Large with +2 LA.

[Crasical]

I've had a wacky idea: a Cloaker mount. A Cloaker at rest is pretty nearly indistinguishable from a cloak, you should be able to wear it without inhibiting your combat ability. If you need the extra reach it wakes up and you've got a Large mount, so your reach will get that little extra boost. Not sure if it's enough, or if there are decent ways to get around the other problems (controlling it nonmagically, for example), but I think that some sort of biologically foldable mount is on the right track.

.... I think wearing a 100 lb. Aberration on your back would be kind of a problem, but I love the idea of having a cloak animate and lift you off the ground by your shoulders, spreading out behind you like a big pair of wings. I wonder if you could get an Animated Object as a workaround...?

[TroubleBrewing]

.... I think wearing a 100 lb. Aberration on your back would be kind of a problem, but I love the idea of having a cloak animate and lift you off the ground by your shoulders, spreading out behind you like a big pair of wings. I wonder if you could get an Animated Object as a workaround...?

Hardly. Since carrying capacity isn't going to be an issue (he's already decided on being a Dwarf, and he's likely going to be the primary melee character), 100 extra pounds is no biggie at higher levels. Heward's Handy Haversack, or buy a hireling. All you actually need to carry is your mount, your armor, and your weapon.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Urpriest has guessed my goals correctly. I really hate being subject to squeezing rules, and my usual DM uses modules which have standard height ceilings (8', with beams at 7', is pretty typical). Double movement cost, -4 penalty on attack rolls, and a -4 penalty to AC really cramps my style. And trust me, begging for encounters to only happen outdoors is just going to increase the incidence of random bar fights. :smallannoyed:

I see tons of posts from folks merrily extolling the virtues of ever-greater size in D&D. I don't think I've ever read a post where being too large just sucked the life out of a character. But when you've had a game where a character just couldn't fit into the dungeon and could only stay outside and tend the horses and wagons (with a single random encounter thrown at them as a consolation prize), it really brings home the disadvantages. (No, it wasn't my Huge character, but I try to learn from other peoples' mistakes as well as my own.)Um he does realize how this helps casters right? Go all battlefield control on him until he opens it up some (not too open or flight becomes

[Curmudgeon]

Um he does realize how this helps casters right? Go all battlefield control on him until he opens it up some (not too open or flight becomes
Uh, did you have something to say here? Seems you stopped in mid-thought.

[Greenish]

Uh, did you have something to say here? Seems you stopped in mid-thought." an issue)."

[Drork]

Do you realize that just having reach does not given you a threaten area in said reach right? Although there are things to take to fix this.

[Person_Man]

Just wondering, are you using the default psionics transparency rules? If so, then never mind. If not, then an AMF has no effect on Expansion and Compression.

[Curmudgeon]

Do you realize that just having reach does not given you a threaten area in said reach right? Although there are things to take to fix this.
I'm not sure what you mean here. If you can make a melee attack into a square, you normally threaten that square. There are some exceptions ─ like making untrained unarmed strikes, or using a whip ─ but generally your melee attack area is your threatened area. The usual combo of armor spikes + reach weapon covers this pretty well.

Just wondering, are you using the default psionics transparency rules?
Yes, psionics = magic.

[TroubleBrewing]

Powerful Build gets you the whole "Large when I wanna be" aspect, to a limited degree.

Goliaths get Mountain Rage, which extends their natural reach by 5'.

Whips have a pretty huge natural range as it is.

Pyrokineticist is a cool class.

"Abberant Blood: Freaky Deaky Arms" is a 2-feat investment for another 5'.

What is that, 25 feet?

[dextercorvia]

Whips have a pretty huge natural range as it is.

Pyrokineticist is a cool class.

You don't threaten with whips, and Pyrokineticists Flame Lash doesn't have language stating that reach affects the ability.

[Curmudgeon]

Goliaths get Mountain Rage, which extends their natural reach by 5'.
Sorry, that's only Goliath Barbarians (required to be nonlawful), and I'm trying for Knight (required to be lawful). It's no good.

[TroubleBrewing]

Sorry, that's only Goliath Barbarians (required to be nonlawful), and I'm trying for Knight (required to be lawful). It's no good.

Crap. I'd forgotten this. And we've already explored the possibility of somehow cheating the alignment system, IIRC.


You don't threaten with whips, and Pyrokineticists Flame Lash doesn't have language stating that reach affects the ability.

I should've remembered the Flame Lash thing, but "whips don't threaten" is news to me.

Oh, riiiiight... DAGGER-whips threaten. And deal regular damage.

And don't totally suck.

[Helldog]

Hardly. Since carrying capacity isn't going to be an issue (he's already decided on being a Dwarf, and he's likely going to be the primary melee character), 100 extra pounds is no biggie at higher levels. Heward's Handy Haversack, or buy a hireling. All you actually need to carry is your mount, your armor, and your weapon.
What. :smallconfused:

[Greenish]

I'm not sure what you mean here.Sounds to me like he means 4e. :smalltongue:

[Edit]:
What. :smallconfused:Good guys take turns with their mount.

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/resources/images/775216/?type=display

[dextercorvia]

I should've remembered the Flame Lash thing, but "whips don't threaten" is news to me.


The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack.



Oh, riiiiight... DAGGER-whips threaten. And deal regular damage.

And don't totally suck.

Was it updated after A&EG?


Although you keep it in hand, the whip-dagger is treated as a ranged weapon with a maximum range of 15 feet and no range penalties.

Not only doesn't it threaten, but it doesn't benefit from nice Melee only things like Power Attack.

If it is updated in the same manner as the whip, then it would probably carry the same prohibition against threatening.

Did I seriously just say nice Melee only things?

[TroubleBrewing]

Wow, whips are way, WAY better when you haven't read the rules in a while, and fondly remember the halcyon days of youth when "reading" the "rules" was for clowns, squares, and jokers, and all the REAL players took Fighter to 20.

[Safety Sword]

That's a thought. Is there some way of gaining Slight Build without being a Kobold? A skinny Dwarf would be droll.

I always knew there should be a feat called "Only gets to the gym 2 days a week" :smalltongue:




[Edit]: Good guys take turns with their mount.

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/resources/images/775216/?type=display

Great, now I have to wipe up spit up coffee from my monitor, thanks Greenish :smallbiggrin:

Edit: How terrified does that horse look?!! :smallfrown:

[Person_Man]

Not only doesn't it threaten, but it doesn't benefit from nice Melee only things like Power Attack.

Yes, it does.

Here is the full description of the whip from the SRD:


A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.

When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.

As a One-Handed Melee Weapon, you can use a whip with Power Attack without issue. (Although it deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher).

[herrhauptmann]

Yes, it does.

Here is the full description of the whip from the SRD:



As a One-Handed Melee Weapon, you can use a whip with Power Attack without issue. (Although it deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher).

Geh, the whip is still so terrible that it makes me cry.
I'll take my spinning sword and pretend my name is Renji or Cho thankyouverymuch.

[Greenish]

Yes, it does.He was talking about 3.0 whip-dagger.

[dextercorvia]

He was talking about 3.0 whip-dagger.

Thanks.

Yeah, his rebuttal to my saying that the whip didn't threaten, was the whip dagger, which I said neither threatens, nor can be PA'd with, since it is treated like a ranged weapon.