Dumbledore: Master Manipulator or Senile Fool? [Archive]

Anecronwashere

2011-12-28, 01:43 AM

I've been rereading the HP Books lately and noticed some things.
Taken separately it's a little worrying but fine for the "Old Unknowable Man" schtick he has but together means either he has a massive array of plans OR is a complete moron.

Book1:
-Leaving Harry with the Dursleys with no monitoring? Minerva clearly didn't like them and raised valid concerns that were brushed off. It is also highly likely Harry was abused physically by Vernon and Petunia and definitely by Dudley (Harry Hunting anyone). Who would leave The Boy-Who-Lived for 11 years in a Magic-Hating Muggle Household without coming to check up once in a while? Unless Dumbles did know and wanted him to be weak and look at Dumbles as a mentor

-Cupboard under the stairs. Ties in with the above. The first letter had that as the address, how could no-one have seen that and put up a red flag?

-The amount of letters: Why did it take so many letters before Hagrid showed up? Did no-one care that over a hundred letters were sent with no reply until his 11th B'day? (Or was it simply due to the cut-off for acceptance he was sent?)

-Hagrid as the deliverer. Why would they send Hagrid to explain the Magical World to a Muggle-Raised? And on top of that why did he pick up the Stone right then? He could have picked it up when Harry was in Madame Malkin's (when he got Hedwig)

-Not explaining how to get onto Platform 9 3/4. Hermione got on and probably had it explained, why the hell did Harry have to wait for Mrs Weasley to conveniently walk past blabbering on about Muggles, Hogwarts and Platform 9 3/4 in a Muggle Train Station. And how in Merlin's name did she forgetthe platform number when she went for 7 years, 2 of her boys had already left AND she had 2 that were returning.
It smells so much like a set-up it ain't funny.
Then Ron's excuse of "Everywhere else is full". Bollocks.
A: Magical Train. It should have enough room for everyone with lots of spares.
B: They just came out of a war. Entire Lines would have been wiped out drastically reducing the number of Hogwartians so there should be more spots than average.

-Mentioning the 3rd Floor. Why? Every single kid (except for rule-sticklers like Yr1 'Mione or Percy) would try to get into it. And the only thing stopping them is a lock broken by Alohormora (Sp?) which is taught to the Firsties!
Umbridge's Office had better protections in 5th year and that was a teachers office, not the hiding place of the key to Immortality and Mouldywort's Rezzing!
Unless Dumbles used a Compulsion Charm to avoid it I don't see why no-one died from Fluffy.

-The traps themselves: Devil's Snare, destroyed by Incindio or Fire. Would work if coupled with a plant that grows rapidly in Fire but it's a 1st year Herbology plant! It seems customized to Neville/Hermione
The keys. Caught by catching, with Broomsticks just happening to sit there. Why not just keep the key with Dumbles? Customized to Harry "Youngest Seeker in a century" Potter
Chess: Why would this be able to be beaten? You animated giant stone guardians. Have them attack the intruder! Customized to Ron "Chessmaster" Weasley
Potions: LOGIC!?! Why would the right potion be there? Shouldn't the logical answer be the paralyzing potion? And the flames would have been gotten around by a Flame-Freezing Charm like Wendylyn the Weird did in the Witch Burnings. Hermione's Forte.
The Mirror: The only real trap. Which sat in a classroom until/over Christmas. *facepalm*. It's actually a good trap if it weren't for Potter's knowledge of the artifact.
All the traps except Fluffy and the Mirror seemed to be customized to the 4 Gryffs up that night (Neville was awake and knew they would be going how? I smell a rat). Plants for the Plant Whiz, Flying keys for the Seeker, Chess for the Chessmaster, Logic for the Genius. And harry got the way past Fluffy for Christmas with the Flute. WHY would hagrid give harry a way past Fluffy?

-Quirrelmort: Dumbles must have known that MouldyVoldy was hanging off the stuttering dudes head. Snape suspected and Quirrel was the only teacher not at the Halloween Feast (except maybe Trelawney) who somehow knew about the Troll and didn't stop it (despite hiding a bigger Troll as a trap for the Stone).
Also why did Dumbles send all the people back to their dorms? isn't the Great hall, surrounded by teachers safer? and has food?

-Why did Dumbles send Harry back to the Dursleys? Even with the "Love"-Fueled Blood Wards, no-one is going to attack Harry at Hogwarts over the Summer and no-one attacked Harry when he was at the Burrow.

That's only Book 1.
So what do you guys think? Manipulator trying to make Harry a Martyr/Kill the Horcrux in his head or Old Fool in dire need of retiring.

Mauve Shirt

2011-12-28, 06:46 AM

He thought the existence of the blood protection made the Dursley's mistreatment worth it. And since Voldemort tried to and then succeeded at coming back every year that Harry was away from their home, it probably was a decent reason to keep Harry there. Once Voldemort came back Harry was attacked between their house and Hogwart, the Dementor attack in the 5th book. In the 6th and 7th he had protection.
The rest of the Sorcerer's Stone, Dumbledore was "testing" Harry/making his first year exciting enough to have a book about. And the tests were customized to the main characters so they could beat them and us 8-year-olds could cheer. :smalltongue:
I'm betting the lines weren't smaller on the train because there was a baby boom after the war and all those kids are 11 now.

Addressing the main question, I think Dumbledore is a little of both. He manipulates Harry into being a martyr and destroying the Horcruxes, instead of outright telling him, but I think he did that because he's senile.

pita

2011-12-28, 06:57 AM

I'm betting the lines weren't smaller on the train because there was a baby boom after the war and all those kids are 11 now.

This would be a great excuse if Harry wasn't 1 year old when the war ended. The youngest child of a baby boom would be nine and three months, assuming the war ended exactly when Voldemort died and there were no Death Eaters wandering around.
As in every Harry Potter discussion thread, I would like you to read Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality). Starts off a pure "Harry Potter is so stupid" rant but gets better by chapter 10.

Anecronwashere

2011-12-28, 07:11 AM

pita

2011-12-28, 07:37 AM

Traab

2011-12-28, 09:06 AM

The Blood Wards sucked though.
What did it actually do anyway?
Was it like a Fidilius? No because the Order could watch him
Did it stop people with the Dark mark? what about Unmarked followers?

It clearly only worked inside the borders of the house (see Dementor Attack in book 5, Sirius's Animagus in Book 3) and didn't stop the Weasleys entering the property in Book2.

And why didn't Sirius get a trial? Both before and after he escaped.
1 Veritaserum Potion and Sirius is free and the Rat is hunted and Sirius can take Harry to Grimmauld Place
After Harry has the encounter in the Shrieking Shack then 1 Leglimens, Pensieve memory or Veritaserum later Sirius is recognized as a free man and paid reparations, then takes Harry to GP
Dumbles could have organized a trial (he was Supreme Mugwump of the Wizengamont, that obviously has some power)

Sirius didnt get a trial due to politics. Fudge had declared him guilty and to be kissed on sight. He couldnt afford to backpedal after putting his political support behind this. Its similar to Hagrid in azkaban. He was arrested, "So the ministry could be seen to be DOING something." I find it to be one of the things that actually made sense in the story.

Fudge's character was one that revolved around maintaining his office at all costs, and grabbing as much money and prestige for himself as he could. He would never admit to making a mistake as that would make him look foolish. By suppressing all information that might clear sirius, he can continue being seen as the hardass minister who is tough on crime and wants this horrible traitor killed for his crimes. Honestly, the biggest plot hole with hagrid was, why the hell did they use Errol to deliver his release papers? Dont they have owls of their own they can use instead of taking the half dead family owl of the weasleys?

As for dumbledoore, I dont think he was meant to be an evil puppet master, thats just the way he came off after looking at the way he acted in hindsight. I think rowling messed him up a bit.

Goosefeather

2011-12-28, 10:25 AM

Sirius didnt get a trial due to politics. Fudge had declared him guilty and to be kissed on sight.

An unorthodox punishment, to be sure :smalltongue:

Mewtarthio

2011-12-28, 10:28 AM

An unorthodox punishment, to be sure :smalltongue:

Not a typo. I'm not sure who the first wizard to liken getting one's soul sucked out to being kissed was or what his deal was, but there you have it.

Traab

2011-12-28, 10:42 AM

Not a typo. I'm not sure who the first wizard to liken getting one's soul sucked out to being kissed was or what his deal was, but there you have it.

Because Dementors Kiss flows better than Dementors Soul Sucking. They put their "mouth" or whatever passes for one, right up to yours, and suck your soul out. Its close enough in appearance to a macabre kiss that its a good name for it.

Bastian Weaver

2011-12-28, 10:49 AM

Well duh. It's a silly book. No wonder the characters act silly.

Starbuck_II

2011-12-28, 11:30 AM

I've been rereading the HP Books lately and noticed some things.
Taken separately it's a little worrying but fine for the "Old Unknowable Man" schtick he has but together means either he has a massive array of plans OR is a complete moron.

Book1:
-Leaving Harry with the Dursleys with no monitoring? Minerva clearly didn't like them and raised valid concerns that were brushed off. It is also highly likely Harry was abused physically by Vernon and Petunia and definitely by Dudley (Harry Hunting anyone). Who would leave The Boy-Who-Lived for 11 years in a Magic-Hating Muggle Household without coming to check up once in a while? Unless Dumbles did know and wanted him to be weak and look at Dumbles as a mentor

Did you forget the Squib? You don't find out till book 4 but she was watching him the whole time.

-Cupboard under the stairs. Ties in with the above. The first letter had that as the address, how could no-one have seen that and put up a red flag?

They can parent, however, they like. Would toughen up the boy maybe.

-The amount of letters: Why did it take so many letters before Hagrid showed up? Did no-one care that over a hundred letters were sent with no reply until his 11th B'day? (Or was it simply due to the cut-off for acceptance he was sent?)

They might assume they got lost in the mail. Few wizards understand muggles.

-Hagrid as the deliverer. Why would they send Hagrid to explain the Magical World to a Muggle-Raised? And on top of that why did he pick up the Stone right then? He could have picked it up when Harry was in Madame Malkin's (when he got Hedwig)

He volunteered. He was told to do it on the way.

-Not explaining how to get onto Platform 9 3/4. Hermione got on and probably had it explained, why the hell did Harry have to wait for Mrs Weasley to conveniently walk past blabbering on about Muggles, Hogwarts and Platform 9 3/4 in a Muggle Train Station. And how in Merlin's name did she forgetthe platform number when she went for 7 years, 2 of her boys had already left AND she had 2 that were returning.
It smells so much like a set-up it ain't funny.
Then Ron's excuse of "Everywhere else is full". Bollocks.
A: Magical Train. It should have enough room for everyone with lots of spares.
B: They just came out of a war. Entire Lines would have been wiped out drastically reducing the number of Hogwartians so there should be more spots than average.

No, Magic train doesn't mean Tardis space. It means uit runs on magic. Still a finite amount of room.

-The traps themselves: Devil's Snare, destroyed by Incindio or Fire. Would work if coupled with a plant that grows rapidly in Fire but it's a 1st year Herbology plant! It seems customized to Neville/Hermione
The keys. Caught by catching, with Broomsticks just happening to sit there. Why not just keep the key with Dumbles? Customized to Harry "Youngest Seeker in a century" Potter
Chess: Why would this be able to be beaten? You animated giant stone guardians. Have them attack the intruder! Customized to Ron "Chessmaster" Weasley
Potions: LOGIC!?! Why would the right potion be there? Shouldn't the logical answer be the paralyzing potion? And the flames would have been gotten around by a Flame-Freezing Charm like Wendylyn the Weird did in the Witch Burnings. Hermione's Forte.
The Mirror: The only real trap. Which sat in a classroom until/over Christmas. *facepalm*. It's actually a good trap if it weren't for Potter's knowledge of the artifact.
All the traps except Fluffy and the Mirror seemed to be customized to the 4 Gryffs up that night (Neville was awake and knew they would be going how? I smell a rat). Plants for the Plant Whiz, Flying keys for the Seeker, Chess for the Chessmaster, Logic for the Genius. And harry got the way past Fluffy for Christmas with the Flute. WHY would hagrid give harry a way past Fluffy?

Because the headmasters would need to bypass the traps as well if they wanted to check up on them. So these are all passable by someone.

-Quirrelmort: Dumbles must have known that MouldyVoldy was hanging off the stuttering dudes head. Snape suspected and Quirrel was the only teacher not at the Halloween Feast (except maybe Trelawney) who somehow knew about the Troll and didn't stop it (despite hiding a bigger Troll as a trap for the Stone).
Also why did Dumbles send all the people back to their dorms? isn't the Great hall, surrounded by teachers safer? and has food?

No, because Dorms are hard to enter unless the portraits want to let you in. Remember, not even a werewolf can bypass the porttraits.

-Why did Dumbles send Harry back to the Dursleys? Even with the "Love"-Fueled Blood Wards, no-one is going to attack Harry at Hogwarts over the Summer and no-one attacked Harry when he was at the Burrow.

Um, he was hjust attacked at Hogwarts by MouldyVoldy... did you forget. And Burrow isn't his home so he wouldn't be protected by love and Voldy can kill him now (you want to die?).

So what do you guys think? Manipulator trying to make Harry a Martyr/Kill the Horcrux in his head or Old Fool in dire need of retiring.

Master Manipulator. Seventh book says it all.

Anecronwashere

2011-12-28, 09:07 PM

No, Magic train doesn't mean Tardis space. It means uit runs on magic. Still a finite amount of room.

The tents have Tardis Space, why not the train?

Because the headmasters would need to bypass the traps as well if they wanted to check up on them. So these are all passable by someone.

But to make them that easy? They should have put some sort of Headmaster-Only Shortcut (Fidilius with Flamel as the Secret-Keeper of another trapdoor?)

No, because Dorms are hard to enter unless the portraits want to let you in. Remember, not even a werewolf can bypass the porttraits.
Didn't Sirius Black get past them?
And it's more the fact that "Prefects, send the children through the halls that contain a monster while we go hut it down leaving you undefended and moving through unsecure territory"
If they had stayed in the Great Hall with Sprout, Hagrid and Flitwick with the rest of the teachers looking for the Troll.
If the troll decided to visit the Great Hall then all the kids who know Stupefy will cast it at the Troll.
Power in Numbers.

Um, he was just attacked at Hogwarts by MouldyVoldy... did you forget. And Burrow isn't his home so he wouldn't be protected by love and Voldy can kill him now (you want to die?).

The wards clearly only seem to work around the property. Didn't harry go to school for years?
Traipsing off to an undefended Muggle school with no protection and no knowledge that people want to kill him (except the Dursleys)

blackjack217

2011-12-28, 09:12 PM

Never attribute to a character flaws that can be attributed to the author :P
I think JK Rowling is just a shoddy world builder, and you're overthinking this.
Unless this is your purpose in the thread, in which case, I would also like to be angry at a justice system that doesn't have Harry Potter punished for attacking a fellow student with lethal force because he didn't know what the spell he was using does, only that it was "for enemies".

I think that not only is she a shoddy world builder her magic system is terrible. I mean one of the spells is literally "lol win" and when someone has shown the ability to use the spell they should never use anything else in combat. Also there is as far as I remember no limiting factor on magic. Once you know the spell casting it takes no effort.

Anecronwashere

2011-12-28, 09:55 PM

Traab

2011-12-28, 10:01 PM

Harry Potter is a good series, if you don't look closely at it.

But yeah, you would think that knowing how Magic workswould be something to throw in, when in Magic School.
It's a bit of exposition in Book 1, maybe some elaboration in later books and the world is slightly better world-building wise.

Yeah, I mean, like you said, they are in a SCHOOL. Would it have been that unusual to include the occasional short lecture on magic and its limitations in each subject? "This is what it does, this is how it does it, so thats why you cant do this, but can do that. Any questions?" Its certainly far more effective than having hermione randomly regurgitate things like, "Thats a violation of dooseldorfs third law of transmogrification! Oh that cant happen, it would run counter to theseheimers table of reactionary forces in charms!" with no explanation as to what these things ARE.

Anecronwashere

2011-12-28, 10:07 PM

Or "You can't Apparate in or out of Hogwarts!" :smalltongue:
Seriously, does that need drumming in every book? There are anti-apparition Wards. We get it.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-12-28, 10:24 PM

After Harry has the encounter in the Shrieking Shack then 1 Leglimens, Pensieve memory or Veritaserum later Sirius is recognized as a free man and paid reparations, then takes Harry to GP

I would like to jump in and point out that all three of these magics can be fooled, and are fooled in the novels in various ways - you can Occlumens, doctor a Pensieve memory, or avert getting dosed with Veritaserum in dozens of ways (silently transmuting the 'serum being my favorite hypothetical). They would sensibly not be open and shut evidence in a case - perhaps as reliable as DNA evidence in a real-world trial, which is to say, not nearly so much as you'd think.

The real reason, of course, is that Sirius got tossed in prison with no trial under the effective Wizarding martial law that was in place at the time. Having him exonerated in a real trial in Prisoner would have been, to use the best term, a total bloody disaster for the government, and that's before all the Death Eaters thrown in on the same docket started appealing their sentences. Without any new evidence beyond his own testimony to force Fudge's hand, there was no way in Wizard Hell he was getting a trial in the book. Plus, I think the punishment for escaping Azkaban is always death anyhow.

Traab

2011-12-28, 10:34 PM

I would like to jump in and point out that all three of these magics can be fooled, and are fooled in the novels in various ways - you can Occlumens, doctor a Pensieve memory, or avert getting dosed with Veritaserum in dozens of ways (silently transmuting the 'serum being my favorite hypothetical). They would sensibly not be open and shut evidence in a case - perhaps as reliable as DNA evidence in a real-world trial, which is to say, not nearly so much as you'd think.

The real reason, of course, is that Sirius got tossed in prison with no trial under the effective Wizarding martial law that was in place at the time. Having him exonerated in a real trial in Prisoner would have been, to use the best term, a total bloody disaster for the government, and that's before all the Death Eaters thrown in on the same docket started appealing their sentences. Without any new evidence beyond his own testimony to force Fudge's hand, there was no way in Wizard Hell he was getting a trial in the book. Plus, I think the punishment for escaping Azkaban is always death anyhow.

We SAW death eater trials/questioning in dumbledoores memories. Karkaroff and barty jr were both dragged in front of the wizengamot, questioned, and their fates decided. Wasnt sirius just arrested and tossed in jail? I basically got the gist as, "We all KNOW sirius is guilty, why waste time with a trial?"

Oh, that brings me to something else. HOW THE HELL IS BLACK CONSIDERED DANGEROUS?! He blew up a gas main with a spell you can learn in 4th/5th year, killing a mediocre wizard and a bunch of muggles that happened to be nearby at the time and betrayed the potters. Thats it. How does it go from there to voldemorts second in command, the most dangerous person alive, etc etc etc? He was clearly the focus on a government run smear campaign to try and drum up support for their actions. "Look at us! We caught the LESTRANGES! We also caught BLACK! Why is catching black so good? Well, uh, he betrayed the potters! So? Uh, he killed a wizard! What do you mean so did dozens of other death eaters? Uh, uh, HE IS YOU KNOW WHO'S SECOND IN COMMAND! Yeah!"

Basically, they spent so much time dragging his name through the mud in all official records, that admitting they screwed up just wasnt going to happen. Way too many official apologies from way too many powerful people would be required, and no way in hell would they be willing to do that without a wand to their heads.

Starbuck_II

2011-12-28, 11:06 PM

Oh, that brings me to something else. HOW THE HELL IS BLACK CONSIDERED DANGEROUS?! He blew up a gas main with a spell you can learn in 4th/5th year, killing a mediocre wizard and a bunch of muggles that happened to be nearby at the time and betrayed the potters.

Basically, they spent so much time dragging his name through the mud in all official records, that admitting they screwed up just wasnt going to happen. Way too many official apologies from way too many powerful people would be required, and no way in hell would they be willing to do that without a wand to their heads.

Black killed wizards but also Muggles. To kill and break the secret of magic is a high crime I guess. I think his recklessness when cornered made him more dangerous.

Traab

2011-12-28, 11:16 PM

Black killed wizards but also Muggles. To kill and break the secret of magic is a high crime I guess. I think his recklessness when cornered made him more dangerous.

Yeah, but they put him on a pedestal above bellatrix effing lestrange! Werent the death eaters also slaughtering muggles during the course of the war? We have a single act of violence, and an act of betrayal and suddenly, he is rated as just under voldemort himself on the danger meter. It HAD to be a PR campaign to make the ministry look like they were catching all the dangerous REAL death eaters, while the poor trapped purebloods with deep pockets were saved from their slavery under the imperius.

Anecronwashere

2011-12-28, 11:26 PM

Traab

2011-12-28, 11:43 PM

Isn't Sirius the Head of the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black?
And thus filthy rich and politically powerful? akin to Lucius.

And he is a Pureblood.

The only logical reason he was thrown into it is because he supposedly betrayed the Potters and the OoP. They were the only (known) group fighting Mouldyshorts and to find out that one of their number is the traitor (which they suspected was infiltrating them for ages) would be enough. Even if it wasn't him they wanted someone to pay.

Of course, there is also the sinister thought. Dumbledoore needed total control over harry, so he either orchestrated the entire frame job, or just stood by and let it happen, so he could put harry where he wanted him, and not under the influence of sirius. Harrys entire life, and eventual death, was all planned out. He was supposed to be raised unloved and abused, so he would latch on to anyone kind and protective of him. He was first met by hagrid, the only person more loyal to dumbledoore than dumbledoore himself. :p Then he "just happens" to meet the weasley family, another group of light wizards who are also strong dumbledoore loyalists through dubious means, and is befriended by their youngest son.

All of this was carefully planned to make harry latch onto these specific people and be willing to listen to them and do what they want. After that, it was a simple matter of arranging all the events as tests for harry to make sure he fulfilled his destiny. The first year traps were garbage. Its been pointed out already that there shouldnt even have been solutions, let alone ones so easy a first year could come up with them. Then second year, there is no way in HELL dumbledoore wouldnt have been able to discover it was a basalisk and where it was coming from. There are intelligent pictures EVERYWHERE in that castle. They would ahve either seen the basalisk and reported its presence, or been destroyed by it and left a trail so easy to follow, a caveman could do it. Third year brought remus, a friend of harrys family, and a man completely loyal to dumbledoore again. This gives him yet another hook to yank on harrys puppet strings when needed while making him feel even better with the few grudging stories he managed to pry out of remus.

4th year was a fricking debacle. There is no way in hell that harry should have been forced to compete. Either magical contracts are the most dangerously broken thing in the wizarding world, or they are total crap and dumbledoore wanted harry forced to compete. Even if the contract was real, it would have been solved by holding three fast and simple rounds right then and there, declaring a winner, then resubmitting the three real champions names so they would be the only ones to come out.

5th year wasnt entirely under his control, but close enough, he gets to watch cedric die, get tortured, and watch voldemort be reborn, and then dumbledoore orders his friends to basically ignore him completely, he gets no support in any meaningful fashion, and is routinely tortured by the pet death eater. That last one was probably his only mistake, as since it was dumbles forcing the "lessons" it made harry resent him. The rest would have likely made him desperate for some acknowledgement from our bearded leader.

But all of this insanely long and rambling post is of course only a potential theory. We may never know for sure, because all rowlings is interested in doing is declaring people to randomly be gay, not filling us in on dumbledoores D&D alignment.

Isn't Sirius the Head of the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black?
And thus filthy rich and politically powerful? akin to Lucius

Not at the time he wasnt. His mother was still alive, and had disowned him, (though apparently it wasnt official or something) so the head of house black at the time didnt give a rats ass about sirius as he was a gryffindor failure and not worth their time.

Haruki-kun

2011-12-28, 11:52 PM

These are more Plot Holes than reasons for Dumbledore's behaviour. That aside, I'm gonna point out a few things:

Needless to say: SPOILER ALERT FOR ALL BOOKS

It's been established that Harry cannot live anywhere but with the Dursleys, as it's the only way his protection spell will be held up. Dumbledore does NOT think Hogwarts is fully safe. If anything, he's the only one who admits that Hogwarts is not fully safe. Knowing this, he prefers Harry stay somewhere he IS. At least from Voldemort.
The amount of letters: Likely a minor plot hole/point. Rowling was just trying to make us see the magic at this point. She was young and not as experienced as she was later on.
Hagrid stuff: Hagrid is forgetful and clumsy. He picked up the stone with Harry because he likes to make himself look like a big deal. "Important Hogwarts business!" However, Dumbledore trusts him. Dumbledore seems to be the type who prefers an honest fool. Likewise, the reason Harry wasn't informed about Platform 9 3/4 was because Hagrid forgot to tell him.
Ron's excuse: Ron was probably just trying to make friends. And I don't think he checked every last compartment in the train. He just saw a nearly-empty compartment and asked the sole occupant "Mind if I join you?"
3rd. Floor: It was established that very few people knew Fluffy's weakness, so there wasn't much reason to lock the door anyway. Also: Alohomora wasn't taught to first years. Hermione knew it because she read the crap out of everything she got her hands on. And even being a first year, Hermione is very talented. The spell doesn't just require you to point the wand and say the words, or else everyone would be a good wizard. I don't think Dumbledore expected many students to be able to get past the lock.
The Devil's Snare: Yes, but Hermione was able to get past the Devil's Snare because she had time to get out of the way and conjure the fire. If Harry had gone at it alone, he wouldn't have been able to get past it... even if he'd known Incendio. Due to the Devil's Snare already having him in it's tentacle-y grasp. In fact, it seems like the trap is impossible to get past unless you've got company or prior knowledge of it.
The Chess and the Keys: No points to make, I'll concede this one.
The Potions: Well, whoever got this far is obviously a very skilled Witch or Wizard, so we switch it up so that they can't get past on Wizardry alone. Presumably, Dumbledore and Snape both knew what the correct potion was even without reading the riddle, so it didn't pose a threat to them if they wanted to get past. Also, pointing out that you can get past the flames with a Flame-Freezing Charm is speculation. It's very easy to just say "yeah, well, this is magical fire." Which it is, considering you need the right potion, not any potion.
The Mirror and the Flute: I really don't think Hagrid gave Harry a way past Fluffy. That's like saying Sirius gave him a way past the Dragon (Later on.). The mirror I'll admit to... you're right. It seems like the last trap was not installed until after Christmas. Which... makes no sense. .-.
Everything else: I think Dumbledore is pretty much Lord Shojo. :smalltongue: He's just trying to keep Voldy in check all the time. And he KNOWS that Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort. He always did. It was a prophecy. So Dumbledore is likely sending Harry off after Voldemort time and again. Maybe he thought Harry was gonna kill Voldemort at the Stone's Chamber?

Anyway.... you really do raise some good points. A lot of my stuff here is speculation, some of it I think covers your points pretty well, others are just my attempt at explaining it, because I'm a huge fan of Harry Potter.

I'll just admit that... at the time of The Sorcerer's Philosopher's Stone, Rowling was just starting out as a writer and didn't think that many things through. Sometimes she let herself go in order to make the world look more awesome and magical, like with the letters, for instance.

Agrippa

2011-12-29, 12:12 AM

This is more about the whole insane specticle of Wizarding justice than anything else, so here it goes. The judicial system used by Rowlling's wizards is an unfair, contradictory and Kafkaesque nightmare. It simply doesn't make that much sense. But then I remembered a gaming blog post I found about a sample justice system for particularly grim fantasy settings which make an excellent model for the Potterverse Wizarding legal system, with some sleight modifications of course. Here (http://vaultsofnagoh.blogspot.com/2011/08/sbvd-crime-and-punishment.html) it is.

Anecronwashere

2011-12-29, 12:13 AM

snoopy13a

2011-12-29, 02:28 AM

Yeah, but they put him on a pedestal above bellatrix effing lestrange! Werent the death eaters also slaughtering muggles during the course of the war? We have a single act of violence, and an act of betrayal and suddenly, he is rated as just under voldemort himself on the danger meter. It HAD to be a PR campaign to make the ministry look like they were catching all the dangerous REAL death eaters, while the poor trapped purebloods with deep pockets were saved from their slavery under the imperius.

Mass-murder is a fairly significant act of violence. Anyway, the Order of the Phoenix knew that:

1) There was a spy
2) The Potters were in danger based off of information gained from Snape
3) James Potter used the Fidelius spell and did not chose Dumbledore as the secret-keeper
4) Sirius Black was James Potter's best friend and Harry Potter's godfather
5) Several Muggle witnesses reported that Peter Pettigrew confronted Sirius Black and claimed that Black betrayed the Potters
6) The Muggle witnesses also (mistakingly) reported that Black killed Pettigrew and several Muggles
7) Black laughed after apparently killing Pettigrew (we know it was out of black humor because he recognized that Pettigrew successfully framed him, but the wizarding community thought this meant he was downright evil).

Based off of these observations, there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence suggesting that Black betrayed his best friend and murdered Peter Pettigrew and several Muggles. Plus, he was believed to be a spy that fed information to Voldemort. Additionally, he is a very talented wizard, and he is charismatic and from a pure-blood family. Most of the death-eaters caught either successfully raised the Imperius curse defense, were slightly insane (Bellatrix Lestrange), or really weren't at Black's level. If you compare Black to the others imprisoned or killed, then Black becomes a plausible second-in-command.

Mauve Shirt

2011-12-29, 06:59 AM

The Blood Wards aren't explained in any sort of detail so I can't argue on living with the Dursleys but Dumbles OBVIOUSLY knew about what they were like (see Squib-Figg who made Harry's time there bad on purpose to make the Dursleys not stop him going AND the letter to Petunia almost right after they were going to kick him out) so why didn't he go and talk with them. Heck, send Snape and put the fear of Wizardry into them along with Monitoring Wards so he can't be mistreated without someone popping in to stop them.

Or put a Compulsion Charm to Not Abuse People.

Compulsion Charms... I was about to say something about the laws of magic, then I remembered I wasn't talking about the Dresden Files. :smalltongue: And they do use such charms in the books. Still, Compulsion Charms that keep Muggles out of an area by reminding them that they have better things to do are less invasive than Compulsion Charms that make them behave contrary to their (spiteful and cruel) nature. Imperius is against wizarding law.

hamishspence

2011-12-29, 07:00 AM

Unless this is your purpose in the thread, in which case, I would also like to be angry at a justice system that doesn't have Harry Potter punished for attacking a fellow student with lethal force because he didn't know what the spell he was using does, only that it was "for enemies".

He was punished. Detentions until the end of term, from Snape. And McGonnagal telling him he was lucky not to be expelled, and that she fully supported it.

pita

2011-12-29, 07:44 AM

He was punished. Detentions until the end of term, from Snape. And McGonnagal telling him he was lucky not to be expelled, and that she fully supported it.

And yet there were no repercussions from the actual justice system, which has been known to adminster punishments to children at school. You'd think at the very least there would be some sort of fine, and probationary period.

Manga Shoggoth

2011-12-29, 07:49 AM

And how in Merlin's name did she forgetthe platform number when she went for 7 years, 2 of her boys had already left AND she had 2 that were returning.
It smells so much like a set-up it ain't funny.

I really cannot understand why people put this forward as ANY form of conspiricay! She didn't forget! All the statement is is an exasperated rethorical question.

Look: This is a middle-aged mother trying to herd a large group of children (including the two biggest pranksters in the series) through Kings Cross Station - a MAJOR London terminal - in the rush hour, on the first day of term.

As someone who used to work in the station I can tell you that dealing with a group like this in the station is pretty stressful at normal times, let alone during the rush hour on the first day of term.

Eleanor_Rigby

2011-12-29, 08:02 AM

This is all pretty interesting analysis... I've only skimmed so sorry if I'm repeating people:

On Veriseratum: (the truth potion, sorry, no time to spell correctly)

I have this idea in the back of my head that the Wizards can't legally use this in trials for similar reasons to why Detect Alignment and such isn't used in OotS Law enforcement. The potion can be tricked. You probably don't even need magic to do that - just willpower and careful consideration. Look at Pinnochio in Shrek: he nearly got 'round his built in lie detector loads of times, he just always failed because he was a bit of an idiot.

On Molly forgetting the Platform number:

I see what the OP was saying, but I think Rowling was probably trying to do a bit of light comedy about a woman who has eight children and a rather scatty husband (not that I don't love Arthur Weasley, because I do, but she seems to act like he's one of the kids half the time) and was trying to keep six of those kids in control, in Kings Cross Station. London is very crowded and stressful and the UK railservice is slightly infamous, and the Weasleys are a rural family. Plus the place is choking with Muggles. It's a very stressful situation, ergo, she forgets something very basic.

On Neville "coincidentally" being awake:

It wouldn't surprise me if Dumblydore did have Neville in the back of his mind when making his tests, he was the alternative kid for the prophesy. As to him actually being awake on the night though? Maybe Dubmledore had a word with the fat lady, maybe he didn't. Neville was very forgetful (kid had a lot on his mind) so it was hardly out of character for him to forget the password, and it was well established that other kids picked on him, so it might have taken a while before anyone told a teacher or found a Gryffindor. I imagine Neville would have come along if he'd heard Harry and Ron in the common room though - he wasn't as thick as he looked, and he was mighty protective of people he cared about, as the attempted jinxing indicated.

On the forced nature of meeting Ron:

Yeah... the train ought to be able to work like those tents, or the trunk of Mr Weasley's car. But think of the legislation! You don't want unauthorised people to be able to fit on that train. You don't want extra space. Also, I think this was meant to mimic real world trains. I wouldn't be shocked if Dumbledore had set up for the Weasleys to welcome Harry into the wizarding world though. They're well known to be one of the most talented and accepting wizarding families out there. I think Dumbles didn't tell Harry anything beyond the basics because he wanted to see how he worked out and maybe compare and contrast his "toughness" to that of Mr Longbottom.
Ron and Harry had "natural" reasons to meet too though: they were both avoiding other kids because they both realised they had a massive reputation and neither knew how to deal with it. Ron was also brought up to seek out (I assume, from the way the family's depicted) and be nice to kids like Harry, even if this doesn't show with how he used to treat Hermione and some other kids.

With Quirrell... yeah, I guess maybe Dumbledore knew. Pretty sure he did actually, at least after a the first few weeks. So maybe he was keeping extra tight security on the guy (Snape Watch, for example) with all kids except Harry and maybe Neville. I don't know. Also, if you were weakened-state-Voldy, would you risk attacking kids until you were ready?

My estimation of Dumbledore as a person dropped sharply in book Seven (as I expect it was meant to) not so much because of the nasty stuff with his family or the greedyness with the Hallows... but that scene in The Prince's Tale where he breaks it to Snape that he'd always been fattening Hazbo up is pretty sickening, even if it was for the Greater Good.

The Gay Thing? That was just extraneous information and the first time it came out, I think, was when the film makers were working on Book 6 (or perhaps 5) and had planned out a scene where Dumbledore reminisced to Harry about this girl he used to have a thing for. Rowling allegedly just wrote a little note in the margin and said "actually, Dumbledore is/was gay" or words to that effect.
When it came out in the press I believe she was practically asked directly and saw no reason not to mention it. He was essentially "asexual" anyway as the only person he had a recorded "thing" for was Grindewald, and that had been snuffed out for the most part long before the books began.
Not saying he never had any other romantic feelings, just that that's the only instance Rowling appears to have given it much thought. He was a really busy guy. As Short-Round might have put it: No time for love, Professor Dumbledore!

I honestly don't get why people find that "reveal" quite so irritating, I can only assume that many of them haven't researched, or are not interested in, or have doubts about, the way the "announcement" first occurred.

hamishspence

2011-12-29, 08:12 AM

And yet there were no repercussions from the actual justice system, which has been known to adminster punishments to children at school. You'd think at the very least there would be some sort of fine, and probationary period.

That was in Fudge's time- and Dumbledore does state that the Ministry is not supposed to have any authority to punish students at Hogwarts. Harry was covered by the fact that his "breach of security" happened off-campus.

He's also "under age" by wizarding law when he attacked Draco.

Traab

2011-12-29, 09:31 AM

I really cannot understand why people put this forward as ANY form of conspiricay! She didn't forget! All the statement is is an exasperated rethorical question.

Look: This is a middle-aged mother trying to herd a large group of children (including the two biggest pranksters in the series) through Kings Cross Station - a MAJOR London terminal - in the rush hour, on the first day of term.

As someone who used to work in the station I can tell you that dealing with a group like this in the station is pretty stressful at normal times, let alone during the rush hour on the first day of term.

Yeah she is bringing a large crowd, but this is probably the 20th time she has brought all or most of them to the station, and she is acting like its the first time she has ever had to deal with her family. It is just strange and way too cooincidental for her to go through with all of this as she just happens to be passing by harry. But this is like a lot of conspiracy theories, it doesnt stand on its own, because it can be explained away, but when you combine it with the laundry list of other potentially fishy actions, it paints a more sinister picture. Personally, I like the idea of the puppet master dumbledoore, because it is the sort of thing that generally requires hindsight to put together, so when you do, you can go back through the story again and rediscover all the signs and scenes where you can now say, "Oh NOW it makes sense!"

Nerd-o-rama

2011-12-29, 10:17 AM

We SAW death eater trials/questioning in dumbledoores memories. Karkaroff and barty jr were both dragged in front of the wizengamot, questioned, and their fates decided. Wasnt sirius just arrested and tossed in jail? I basically got the gist as, "We all KNOW sirius is guilty, why waste time with a trial?"

No, we saw Death Eaters get paraded through the Wizengamot in a do-not-pass-go kangaroo court and immediately get thrown into Azkaban unless they had useful information on other Death Eaters, which Sirius had no credible amount of (all he could really do was finger [heh] Peter, who was confirmed dead as far as everyone else was concerned.) Black also had innumerable strikes against him from his family background, his apparent betrayal of two people who immediately rose to Wizarding folk hero status, recklessly slaughtering people and breaching secrecy at the same time, etc. Given how bad the Wizard courts are even in relative peacetime, it really doesn't make a difference whether or not Sirius got a "trial" back then - he probably did, and it probably lasted ten minutes.

hamishspence

2011-12-29, 10:20 AM

Sirius states in book 4 that Crouch Snr had him (and some other accused Death Eaters) thrown into Azkaban without trial.

And that Crouch Jnr, however, did get a trial, though it was basically an excuse for Crouch Snr to show how much he hated him.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-12-29, 10:25 AM

Ah, I see. I still say the "trials" we do see still look more like interrogations. Maybe Crouch Sr. didn't seriously believe Sirius knew anything and just wanted him away. The rumors of "You-Know-Who's second-in-command" were generated among the public and allowed to grow because they made the Ministry look good, if you don't think too hard about the lack of a trial (and when was the last time you saw a Wizard thinking hard?)

Manga Shoggoth

2011-12-29, 10:32 AM

[B]...Also, I think this was meant to mimic real world trains.

Actually, the book describes the old rolling stock that BR used to use, and in the film they even dig out the same rolling stock. Ah, memories...

Yeah she is bringing a large crowd, but this is probably the 20th time she has brought all or most of them to the station, and she is acting like its the first time she has ever had to deal with her family.

The number of times she has had to deal with an entire family makes absolutey no difference whatsoever. Neither does her familliarity with the situation. She is acting just like many of the overstressed mothers I have seen in my life. Including the one I married.

Personally, I like the idea of the puppet master dumbledoore, because it is the sort of thing that generally requires hindsight to put together, so when you do, you can go back through the story again and rediscover all the signs and scenes where you can now say, "Oh NOW it makes sense!"

Oh, I dont doubt that Dumbledore is manipulating at least some things behind the scenes. The problem is that once people catch on to that we get "Oh NOW it makes sense!" becoming some form of monomania being applied to just about every paragraph in the book.

Even if there is a conspiricy, not everything is a result of the conspiracy.

hamishspence

2011-12-29, 10:32 AM

Crouch Jnr's trial didn't really have an interrogatory component to it- it was basically:

"You have been accused of"
"Do the jury think these people are guilty and deserve a life sentence?"

no plea bargains or questions.

As far back as book 3, Fudge seemed to genuinely believe Black was Voldemort's "most devoted servant" when talking it over with Hagrid, McGonnagal, and Flitwick.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-12-29, 11:06 AM

Yeah, but Fudge is a paranoid moron.

Haruki-kun

2011-12-29, 11:39 AM

Yeah, but Fudge is a paranoid moron.

Dumbledore also seemed to believe it, though.

FatJose

2011-12-29, 11:59 AM

I honestly don't get why people find that "reveal" quite so irritating, I can only assume that many of them haven't researched, or are not interested in, or have doubts about, the way the "announcement" first occurred.

I heard/saw it was during a Q&A with fans that she first said he was gay. Personally, I think its lazy/cowardly non/writing. A story is the story. If it's not in the books, it doesn't count. There would have been a lot of subtext to hint at Dumbledore being gay but we don't see it in any books. It's like she's being credited retro-actively for stuff she never wrote. Anyone can do that. Ultimate Spider-Man is doing the same shameless attention whoring. In novels we see only what the writer wants us to see of their characters and by the same method Rowling can also claim that Dursley is secretly an axe-murderer, Snape was a champion boggle player and James Potter used to be in a Jamaican Bobsled team. Until she actually writes a book that flat out says "this guy is gay" it isn't anything.

Goosefeather

2011-12-29, 12:15 PM

I heard/saw it was during a Q&A with fans that she first said he was gay. Personally, I think its lazy/cowardly non/writing. A story is the story. If it's not in the books, it doesn't count. There would have been a lot of subtext to hint at Dumbledore being gay but we don't see it in any books.

You mean beyond the whole Grindelwald thing?

Following your logic, there is no reason in the books to assume Dumbledore is straight either - the assumption merely unconsciously follows the heteronormative paradigm. The fact is that his sexuality is largely irrelevant (again, excepting Grindelwald), so why does it even matter? So Rowling conceived the character as gay, so what? She's not trying to take credit for him as actively promoting an agenda, it's just one of the passive details she had in the back of her mind when writing him. There is no reason for anyone to get offended by any of this.

Death of the Author has its place, but I don't think this is it.

hamishspence

2011-12-29, 12:15 PM

Yeah, but Fudge is a paranoid moron.

That didn't really kick in till the end of book 4 though.

Nerd-o-rama

2011-12-29, 12:24 PM

I think the immediate execution deal with Sirius was meant to foreshadow that, though, as well as providing a climactic conflict for Prisoner.

Thane of Fife

2011-12-29, 12:27 PM

Oh, that brings me to something else. HOW THE HELL IS BLACK CONSIDERED DANGEROUS?! He blew up a gas main with a spell you can learn in 4th/5th year, killing a mediocre wizard and a bunch of muggles that happened to be nearby at the time and betrayed the potters. Thats it.

Basically, they spent so much time dragging his name through the mud in all official records, that admitting they screwed up just wasnt going to happen. Way too many official apologies from way too many powerful people would be required, and no way in hell would they be willing to do that without a wand to their heads.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think a gas main was involved - that was the muggle explanation. I think that the wizards thought he did it with just a spell. One can imagine how that could be considered extremely dangerous.

FatJose

2011-12-29, 01:07 PM

You mean beyond the whole Grindelwald thing?

Following your logic, there is no reason in the books to assume Dumbledore is straight either I don't. Guy might as well be a Ken doll down there.

The fact is that his sexuality is largely irrelevant (again, excepting Grindelwald), so why does it even matter? Then it should never been mentioned in the first place. And the whole Grindelwald thing is just Ho Yay speculation. Extremely evasive and easy to handwave without word of god.
So Rowling conceived the character as gay, so what? She's not trying to take credit for him as actively promoting an agenda
She is. And she got raucous applause for it for the most part and her series now has this new layer of "depth" its fans can now tout. She knew it would be controversial so she kept it completely off the radar until she "knew" she had nothing to lose for it. "You bought 6 books, you're going to buy the 7th and if you don't like it. Whatever. I'm laughing to the bank. Series is over anyway." At best, she was not trying to ruffle feathers in the actual books themselves and at worst her intentions were to manipulate. Would a strong homosexual character been interesting and forward thinking? Yes. Is Dumbledore that character? Not even kind of. Was he a master manipulator or senile fool? Neither. He was just a walking bearded Deus Ex Machina.

Sotharsyl

2011-12-29, 05:44 PM

My vote is for Master Manipulator

Consider this,Snape approaches Dumbledore with critical information that Voldemort knows about the prophecy and due to it he is going to attack the Potters, who I feel we can easily assume were close to Dumbledore, and Snape begs him to hide them.

What does Dumbledore do, thank his lucky stars that Snape risked all to betray Voldemort and immediately get the parents of the Anti-Voldemort weapon to safety?

No, he asks for Snape's loyalty or else he won't his,Dumbledore's, favourites and the people who are fated to be invaluable to defeating Dumbledore's enemy.

And Snape goes along with it, master manipulator the old coot is, I say.

DiscipleofBob

2011-12-29, 05:54 PM

On the Dumbledore being gay thing...

The subtext is there, and it's only recognizable as such once you know what to look for, but it's not obvious in any way shape or form, and that's what makes it brilliant.

Obviously there's a lot of social stigma with such a mentor figure like Dumbledore being gay, but by not outright saying it in any of the books, Rowling is saying that the mentor figure's sexuality doesn't and shouldn't matter, and has no bearing on his capacity to act as a school administrator and mentor to the protagonist (whether or not you think Dumbledore is competent depends entirely on other factors).

Rowling has some major flaws as a writer. The many irrelevant offscreen deaths for example, but this is one area that I have to give her props.

Mauve Shirt

2011-12-29, 06:09 PM

Rowling has some major flaws as a writer. The many irrelevant offscreen deaths for example, but this is one area that I have to give her props.

Yeah, her excuse for that was "In a real war, not everyone who dies gets a death scene." Which makes sense to me, but I still don't like it.

Arakune

2011-12-29, 08:06 PM

Yeah, her excuse for that was "In a real war, not everyone who dies gets a death scene."

Which was stupid. The characters might not witness a particular death scene, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She just took the easy way out of simply not writing and coming with some 'witty' reply months after the book release in interviews, while secretly hopping nobody would ever ask her that.

Mauve Shirt

2011-12-29, 09:09 PM

Which was stupid. The characters might not witness a particular death scene, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She just took the easy way out of simply not writing and coming with some 'witty' reply months after the book release in interviews, while secretly hopping nobody would ever ask her that.

And we might have gotten to see it, if the books had ever strayed far from Harry's PoV. We might see it yet on Pottermore or something like that. But if she'd jumped out of Harry's PoV uncharacteristically for the final chapter of the book I bet no one would like that much either.

Eleanor_Rigby

2011-12-30, 10:15 AM

I don't. Guy might as well be a Ken doll down there.
Then it should never been mentioned in the first place. And the whole Grindelwald thing is just Ho Yay speculation. Extremely evasive and easy to handwave without word of god.
She is. And she got raucous applause for it for the most part and her series now has this new layer of "depth" its fans can now tout. She knew it would be controversial so she kept it completely off the radar until she "knew" she had nothing to lose for it. "You bought 6 books, you're going to buy the 7th and if you don't like it. Whatever. I'm laughing to the bank. Series is over anyway." At best, she was not trying to ruffle feathers in the actual books themselves and at worst her intentions were to manipulate. Would a strong homosexual character been interesting and forward thinking? Yes. Is Dumbledore that character? Not even kind of. Was he a master manipulator or senile fool? Neither. He was just a walking bearded Deus Ex Machina.

I can see where you're coming from with this but I still don't agree with you. I've watched videos of "the reveal" and yeah, she got loads of applause, but I didn't actually see her holding up a placard or lighting up and "Applause" sign. It seems a bit unfair to say that because people clapped, that was the reaction she was looking for. To me it seems that the reasons she didn't mention his "sexuality" in the series were (as others have already said):
- It was irrelevant to the story, as you've pointed out. It's particularly irrelevant since Harry never "knew" as far as we know. In the books, it is only there as subtext. Why would Harry P. want to know about the sexual leanings of his elderly Headmaster? Answer: he probably wouldn't - that's the kind of thing most kids don't like to think about, whether their Headmasters are straight or whatever else.
- I think Rowling might have been mildly concerned that having Dumbledore be an openly gay character would have made even more people attempt to ban her books and thus this might have kept a lot of kids away from Harry Potter (apart from the sneaky ones, of which there are many, with literature)
- I also suspect that she was a bit worried people would get mad at her for having such a "stereotypical" gay character. Albus is extremely flamboyant, even for a wizard.

The "ken doll" thing I already touched on: for the most part, it seems he was meant to be the sort of character that simply doesn't have a lot of Romantic leanings. This was exactly what I think Rowling intended us to think of him as. He has a huge capacity for love (as Rowling seemed to think it was incredibly important that we realised), it's just not usually the romantic variety.
I'd imagine that the Grindewald thing was deliberately vague so that people who "don't like that sort of thing" can just handwave it away, but also because, let's face it, if you were an elderly headmaster talking to a young boy in your care, would you openly spell out the fact that you wanted to jump that guy's bones when telling the story? It's not relevant, it would have made Harry feel more than a little uncomfortable and it'd be rather unprofessional too; that was private stuff and there was no reason HP needed to know it.

Also: is Dumbledore a strong homosexual character? A lot of people would say he really really is; just because he's incredibly archtypal doesn't mean he's necessarily poorly written, not in my opinion anyway. He is, however, a fairly morally grey character and not necessarily the best Role Model... although really, he's quite a good one: he was fundamentally flawed (the best characters are) but he generally made the right decisions in the end.
I think arguing Rowling ought to have told us all Prof. Dumbledore was "queer" right off the bat is a bit akin to arguing that she should have told us in book 1 that Blaise Zabini was a black guy. The fact that he was a black guy didn't really figure into his contribution of the story at all, even when he started appearing properly in the later books. So why mention it? She did mention it eventually, but that was when his physical appearance was being described to us for the first time, and it would have been kind of weird for her to deliberately omit his skin colour.

Which was stupid. The characters might not witness a particular death scene, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She just took the easy way out of simply not writing and coming with some 'witty' reply months after the book release in interviews, while secretly hopping nobody would ever ask her that.

Yeah... I thought it was a bit much too, the way they went.
Although if you look at the size of Book 7 you can see why she had fair reason to leave their death scene out of it. Personally I found the way it was handled in the books to be more powerful than the cheesily "poetic" way they did it in the movies. I mean... their bodies were lain out on the floor, lovingly, by the survivors. Which dolt arranged them so that their hands were "tragically" almost touching but not quite? I know Dumbledore's Army and co. were pushed for time, but I'm pretty sure they would have either lain the bodies with their hands at their sides or on their chests or actually put their hands together instead of something that forcedly "poignant". Or did Bellatrix run in there and secretly force their hands apart for kicks and giggles?

And as angry as I was about all the deaths in The Battle of Hogwarts... (Colin Creevey? Really? Couldn't she have just hospitalised the kid?) I do think it makes a powerful point about the brutality of war. Whether that was her intention during writing or an "excuse" she came up with later, it works for me.

On a less serious note; I seem to remember her saying somewhere that part of the reason she killed Tonks and Remus was because she'd spared Arthur Weasley in the Half Blood Prince, the Basilisk attack was meant to have finished him off. It'd be a terrible thing to say if they were real people, but I'd much have preferred Tonks and Remus dying side by side than Molly becoming a widow. (I also kind of think she killed Remus mostly so she could have a poignant Maurauderers sans-Pettigrew moment with Harry and the resurrection stone and then a further "Harry's life is eternal" thing going on with Teddy Lupin.)

And we might have gotten to see it, if the books had ever strayed far from Harry's PoV. We might see it yet on Pottermore or something like that. But if she'd jumped out of Harry's PoV uncharacteristically for the final chapter of the book I bet no one would like that much either.

True.
...Everybody adored the final chapter she went for though, didn't they?
All the "cute parallels" between James/Lily and Harry/Ginny just creeped me out, frankly. I mean, Ginny was practically his adoptive little sister... there's nothing technically "wrong" with it, but it feels ickier than it does romantic, to me. (This said, I appreciate that traditionally "Parents-in-Law" are meant to act as secondary parents to their child's spouse so really it shouldn't bother me as much as it does... Still. They were both under the age of 12 when they met... it just doesn't sit right with me. :smallyuk:)

Also, I totally didn't notice that you'd already made my Molly Weasley point, Manga Shogoth. It could be that you "ninja-ed" me, since I usually take ages to write my posts, but it's quite likely that I just plain didn't see it. :smallsmile:
I take it from your "location" that you've actually seen Kings Cross Station and know just how hectic it can be... [shudders]

Dr.Epic

2011-12-30, 11:23 AM

Coidzor

2011-12-30, 11:38 AM

I was wondering why nothing was ever mentioned of his grandparents beyond that his maternal grandmother was actually magic-positive.

It seems obvious now. Dumbledore never wanted attention called to the fact that he offed them for greater control over his end game piece. Because it's not like the time frame is such that dying of old age is a reasonable given for all 4 of them, 2 of them from an old, wealthy family of wizards, who seem to have a longer life span in general. And if Voldy had killed any of them, that would have been something to mention along with the parents, because even though having one's parents murdered is a bit more visceral, one's grandparents would still warrant a mention both for the blood vendetta and the "I had to live with that family of horrible pork beasts" resentment.

Traab

2011-12-30, 11:48 AM

I think all the wizards throughout the books show this level of incompetence:

-Building a school adjacent to a dark forest and not putting any walls up to separate the two. And simply telling students not to go in there isn't enough because how good are teenagers at following orders from authority figures?

-How did no one ever find the Chamber of Secrets? The plumbing in the girl's room looks pretty modern. When they installed it, did no one think the massive underground passageway was odd? Also, ghosts haunt the school. Why not just have them all just randomly phase through walls until they find it.

-The constant recurring theme of bad defense against the dark arts teachers. You think after the first one turned out not only to be evil, but also hosting Voldermort on his head, there'd be a lot stricter means to hire these guys. But no. And in book 4, he turns out to be another agent of Voldermort.

-How many times has an agent of Voldermort, or Voldermort himself, been able to sneak into Hogwarts undetected? I could understand if this was just some regular school, but if you're hiding the philosopher's stone in there, have some better defenses. Heck, the Elric Brothers would transmute that place to the ground to get that stone.:smallwink: But no. Can't they use some manner of detect evil or the equivalent in their world to find these guys. And don't tell me scrying doesn't exist. Book 3 had that map. Clearly there are means to locate such people.

-Why did they put all those demementors around Hogwarts in book 3? Two very big reasons why that's incredibly dumb:
1. These things can make you pass out if they get too close and can kill you by kissing you. So let's put several dozen of them near you're children, most of whom have no real magical training.
2. This prisoner has already shown he can evade these things. He broke out of the inescapable prison where these things were the guards. And that was when he had no magical gear. I'm sure if he's gonna attack Hogwarts, he wouldn't do it empty handed.

1) My theory is the forest wasnt forbidden until hagrid released Aragog into there during his own chamber of secrets issue. I mean think about it. We have had harry and crew enter constantly, what threats have they faced? They have bumped into centaurs, unicorns, and acromantulas. Unicorns are light creatures, they wouldnt harm the kids. Centaurs may not like humans, but they also wont harm kids. Its all about the spiders. They have had the last 40 years or so to spread and grow, and now the forest is really dangerous because of it.

2) meh, probably wards of some sort. I doubt the plumbing was all that new, so noone would think anything odd about it. Plus most honestly believed there WAS no chamber. Not until it was opened. So noone really ever looked. I still think it was silly to claim they couldnt figure out what was happening. The paintings should have been able to report where the basalisk came from, and then they could say who the last few people to enter the bathroom where and there you go, ginny is caught.

3) You might think that, but keep in mind the curse has been active for decades now. They have run out of highly qualified candidates and basically have to accept whoever the hell is stupid or desperate enough for a job to apply. Imagine if for the last 40 years, your school has lost 40 science teachers, some of which have actually died or been seriously injured. How easy do you think it will be to find science teacher number 41? Word gets around.

4) Book 1, quirrelmort, pettigrew
Book 2, Riddlemort pettigrew
Book 3, pettigrew
Book 4, crouch jr
Book 5, none
Book 6, Wow, quite a list if you count the sneak attack. Im not even sure of the full amount.
Book 7, Well, since voldemort OWNED hogwarts in book 7, plus the final battle, id say pretty much everybody on the bad side was there.

5) So Fudge can be seen DOING SOMETHING. Its a running theme for him. He doesnt care so much about solving a problem, he cares about being seen doing something about it. He pulls out the ministry's biggest guns, proclaims very loudly and directly into the microphone that he is serious about catching sirius, and thats all he cares about. The DMLE are out and about trying to track him down, but FUDGE is protecting our school!

pita

2011-12-30, 01:33 PM

That was in Fudge's time- and Dumbledore does state that the Ministry is not supposed to have any authority to punish students at Hogwarts. Harry was covered by the fact that his "breach of security" happened off-campus.

He's also "under age" by wizarding law when he attacked Draco.

Look, I can't keep making my arguments if you keep refuting them with facts. It doesn't work that way.

Mauve Shirt

2011-12-30, 02:24 PM

True.
...Everybody adored the final chapter she went for though, didn't they?

When I said "final chapter" I meant the battle, not the epilogue. I personally thought it should have ended with Harry mentioning his desire to eat a sandwich.
However, it could have been worse (http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/61262171.html).

Weezer

2011-12-30, 04:37 PM

Arakune

2011-12-30, 05:25 PM

As I said before, it's like Dominic Deegan all over again, except with less drawing and more (bad) writing.

I think you could even squeeze some "saving" there if you look bad enough.

Manga Shoggoth

2011-12-30, 05:39 PM

Also, I totally didn't notice that you'd already made my Molly Weasley point, Manga Shogoth. It could be that you "ninja-ed" me, since I usually take ages to write my posts, but it's quite likely that I just plain didn't see it. :smallsmile:
I take it from your "location" that you've actually seen Kings Cross Station and know just how hectic it can be... [shudders]

As I said in the post, I used to work there. I know exactly how busy it gets... I've also been there overnight on occasions, and it can get quite spooky. Never seen Boudicca, though.

In actual fact I was working there around the time they filmed some of the scenes - in fact I'm pretty sure the footbridge that Harry talks to the member of station staff in the first film actually leads to the entrance to the offices I worked in. I don't think I was there when the did the filming, though - I think that was mostly weekends.

Traab

2011-12-30, 06:42 PM

I'm going to have to go with senile fool, mostly because Rowling's plots depend not on master manipulations going on in the background but increasingly unlikely coincidences just happening to always give Harry what he needs to win, defeat the challenge for him or simply inexplicably make the danger evaporate. I simply don't think she either thought through her plots enough or was a good enough author to tie all of her deus ex machinas back to Dumbledore's manipulations, she simply seemed to believe that coincidence was a perfectly valid plot device...

And yes, for those of you who missed the last Potter thread, I'm not a fan of Rowling's writing in the slightest (though I still enjoyed all the books, oddly enough).

I dont tie all of them to dumbledoore, but I do tie some of them, more and more the earlier on in the series you look. Basically all of first year felt like the biggest setup in the world. Everything seemed to be arranged specifically to let harry and his amazing friends solve everything, and every challenge was balanced around them. Had they brought neville along, and become the fabulous foursome, instead of the golden trio, then there would have been a test for each of them. Herbology for neville, flying for harry, chess for ron, logic for hermione, and they had already proven themselves capable of taking down a troll.

And honestly? I wish she had brought neville along. Why? For potential questions of who the real child of prophecy is. If neville is always there helping in these big confrontations, always contributing something that helps in the various showdowns, then there could always be room for doubt which would have made for a far more interesting story imo.

Anyways, in book 2, I think it was more dumbledoore playing a wait and see game with childrens lives at stake. i do not believe there is any way he wouldnt have been able to solve the "mystery". He has too much knowledge, too much control over everything that happens at hogwarts, to not know. I think he wanted to see if harry could step up again and beat voldemort. He also was testing harry to see how he reacted to the negative public image. He could have cleared up the heir of slytherin right off the bat. "The last known heir of slytherin, was tom marvolo riddle, who later went by the name of lord voldemort. As he has never had children, and we know who harry potter's parents are, he is clearly not the heir of slytherin."

Book 3 was more up in the air. I doubt dumbledoore really cared much about the events taking place, aside from making sure harry formed yet another link to someone who is majorly loyal to dumbledoore. If you accept the idea that he knew sirius was innocent, and let him go to prison to keep control over harry, it opens more avenues, but without that part, he is mostly standing back, as there is no overt voldemort related event taking place.

Book 4, once again, either the biggest universe breaking power ever was glossed over, or someone was lying. Either way, forcing harry to take part in the tournament, was likely done specifically to flush out this years voldemort related trap. Once again, harry found himself forced center stage to deal with whatever voldemort was up to, with no help from dumbledoore. I dont know if he is evil or just trying desperately to complete the prophecy by forcing confrontations between them until one finally destroys the other.

Book 5 was once again more hands off. His biggest manipulation was forcing harry to take occlumancy from snape. I call bs on the notion that there wasnt anyone else trustworthy available to teach harry except the man who hates him most. I think it was done on purpose to force the connection between him and voldemort open wider so he could gather intelligence from it.

Book 6, he only started to teach harry things because he knew he would be dead before the school year ended. Even then he mostly wasted his time, dragged his feet, and once again assigned tests and tasks for him and his friends to do while he sat back and watched. Another possibility is that his near death experience with the ring may have convinced him that since harry is the only one who can defeat voldemort, that may also include his horocruxes, so he decided to take harry with him on future hunts just in case.

Haruki-kun

2011-12-30, 11:10 PM

I think all the wizards throughout the books show this level of incompetence:

-Building a school adjacent to a dark forest and not putting any walls up to separate the two. And simply telling students not to go in there isn't enough because how good are teenagers at following orders from authority figures?

-How did no one ever find the Chamber of Secrets? The plumbing in the girl's room looks pretty modern. When they installed it, did no one think the massive underground passageway was odd? Also, ghosts haunt the school. Why not just have them all just randomly phase through walls until they find it.

-The constant recurring theme of bad defense against the dark arts teachers. You think after the first one turned out not only to be evil, but also hosting Voldermort on his head, there'd be a lot stricter means to hire these guys. But no. And in book 4, he turns out to be another agent of Voldermort.

-How many times has an agent of Voldermort, or Voldermort himself, been able to sneak into Hogwarts undetected? I could understand if this was just some regular school, but if you're hiding the philosopher's stone in there, have some better defenses. Heck, the Elric Brothers would transmute that place to the ground to get that stone.:smallwink: But no. Can't they use some manner of detect evil or the equivalent in their world to find these guys. And don't tell me scrying doesn't exist. Book 3 had that map. Clearly there are means to locate such people.

-Why did they put all those demementors around Hogwarts in book 3? Two very big reasons why that's incredibly dumb:
1. These things can make you pass out if they get too close and can kill you by kissing you. So let's put several dozen of them near you're children, most of whom have no real magical training.
2. This prisoner has already shown he can evade these things. He broke out of the inescapable prison where these things were the guards. And that was when he had no magical gear. I'm sure if he's gonna attack Hogwarts, he wouldn't do it empty handed.

Traab already addressed these, so I'm only gonna add whatever I feel wasn't covered by him.

2: (Chamber of Secrets) Because the school was thoroughly searched and no one had found it, as explained by Professor Binns. Professor Binns pointed out that just because a wizard is good doesn't mean he can't use the Dark Arts, for things such as finding the Chamber. The problem is that the particular Dark Art that was needed was Parseltongue, an ability that very few wizards are born with and that cannot be attained by training. The last two wizards who were known Parselmouths were Tom Riddle and Salazar Slytherin: And Riddle wasn't actually known until way later.

4: (Voldemort sneaks into the castle) Ehm... no, there is no Detect Evil or an equivalent. There is no spell, at least that was ever addressed, to detect whether a sentient being in the HP universe is inherently Evil. This works in D&D because people have a set alignment, which RL people (and arguably Fictional characters in other settings) do not. There is scrying, there's Legilimency, but there's Occlumency for that. In the end it's about who's the better wizard... and Voldemort is pretty darn good at what he does. His followers didn't just waltz into the castle and get the job with no preparation. Moody/Crouch, for instance. Moody got the job, and he was a man Dumbledore trusted. Crouch managed to switch himself with Moody. And the Harry Potter Wiki lists him among Known Occlumens (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Occlumency#Known_Occlumens).

5: Security for one, psychology another. People hated Dementors, but Fudge mentioned in Book 4 that the only reason people sleep calmly in their beds at night is that Dementors guard Azkaban. People probably felt safer from Sirius Black knowing Dementors were guarding Hogwarts.

Xondoure

2011-12-31, 01:24 AM

Crouch always seemed to make sense as someone to thematically follow Sirius. We'd been promised the dark lord's second in command, so next book we got him.

Psyren

2011-12-31, 02:18 AM

Are we comparing pre- and post-Cerebus HP again? :smallsigh:
The books started out silly. Like, Phantom Tollbooth silly. Poring through that phase for complex character motivations is ludicrous.

And yet there were no repercussions from the actual justice system, which has been known to adminster punishments to children at school. You'd think at the very least there would be some sort of fine, and probationary period.

The justice system sometimes, but not always, intervenes at school. How many college students do you think are caught underage drinking? Now how many do you think have to pay a fine to the city or do time?

And yes, perforating another student is more severe, but still not as severe at Hogwarts as it would be in our world.

Dr.Epic

2011-12-31, 08:32 AM

1) My theory is the forest wasnt forbidden until hagrid released Aragog into there during his own chamber of secrets issue. I mean think about it. We have had harry and crew enter constantly, what threats have they faced? They have bumped into centaurs, unicorns, and acromantulas. Unicorns are light creatures, they wouldnt harm the kids. Centaurs may not like humans, but they also wont harm kids. Its all about the spiders. They have had the last 40 years or so to spread and grow, and now the forest is really dangerous because of it.

I find it hard to believe that that one spider could multiple that quickly especially since he'd have been the only giant spider. Also, why would it have been so difficult for the wizard staff to deal with one family of spiders?

2) meh, probably wards of some sort. I doubt the plumbing was all that new, so noone would think anything odd about it. Plus most honestly believed there WAS no chamber. Not until it was opened. So noone really ever looked. I still think it was silly to claim they couldnt figure out what was happening. The paintings should have been able to report where the basalisk came from, and then they could say who the last few people to enter the bathroom where and there you go, ginny is caught.

Still find that unlikely. How old is Hogwarts? The plumbing would have been installed well after the schools initial completion so they would have installed new one. The passageway should have been detected. I also find it that hard to believe even with wards the chamber wouldn't have been detected.

3) You might think that, but keep in mind the curse has been active for decades now. They have run out of highly qualified candidates and basically have to accept whoever the hell is stupid or desperate enough for a job to apply. Imagine if for the last 40 years, your school has lost 40 science teachers, some of which have actually died or been seriously injured. How easy do you think it will be to find science teacher number 41? Word gets around.

What curse are you talking about? Also, too bad there aren't any like wizards or magic users in these books capable of dealing with such magical matters like removing curses.:smallwink: Oh, and Snape was more than eager to take the job. And they could have just merged the position with something else.

4) Book 1, quirrelmort, pettigrew
Book 2, Riddlemort pettigrew
Book 3, pettigrew
Book 4, crouch jr
Book 5, none
Book 6, Wow, quite a list if you count the sneak attack. Im not even sure of the full amount.
Book 7, Well, since voldemort OWNED hogwarts in book 7, plus the final battle, id say pretty much everybody on the bad side was there.

Book four there was also the reporter that could turn into a ladybug. While not evil, it does show how easy it is for just anyone to sneak onto Hogwarts grounds. And book five the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher sent the dementor at the start after Harry.

Not to mention after what happened in book 1, you think security and monitoring would be a lot stricter.

5) So Fudge can be seen DOING SOMETHING. Its a running theme for him. He doesnt care so much about solving a problem, he cares about being seen doing something about it. He pulls out the ministry's biggest guns, proclaims very loudly and directly into the microphone that he is serious about catching sirius, and thats all he cares about. The DMLE are out and about trying to track him down, but FUDGE is protecting our school!

Still is extremely dangerous and foolish. Making yourself seem busy is one thing. Sending dangerous creatures out near children is another. It'd be like a politician wanting to seem useful by sending dozens of hungry tigers and bears in an area he suspects a criminal might be. The body count's gonna be beyond count. Not to mention if he wanted to come off as being able to solve a problem, he could have just sent like 50 of his best wizards out to patrol Hogwarts grounds. Although given the incompetence of the wizards in these books, maybe sending these creatures out was the better option.:smallwink:

Eleanor_Rigby

2011-12-31, 09:01 AM

When I said "final chapter" I meant the battle, not the epilogue. I personally thought it should have ended with Harry mentioning his desire to eat a sandwich.
However, it could have been worse (http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/61262171.html).

Eeeewww... yeah, I think I'd seen that linked in an HP thread before, possibly by your fair self. I've only read book 7 all the way through once (I had to share it with a siblingwhen it first came out and then I went on a literature course... time for rereading HP the series again and again kind of winked out for me... :smallfrown: I've reread passages of it plenty of times though) and I don't remember that particular part, but it sounds like an awesome end to a seven part series. :smallbiggrin:

As I said in the post, I used to work there. I know exactly how busy it gets... I've also been there overnight on occasions, and it can get quite spooky. Never seen Boudicca, though.

In actual fact I was working there around the time they filmed some of the scenes - in fact I'm pretty sure the footbridge that Harry talks to the member of station staff in the first film actually leads to the entrance to the offices I worked in. I don't think I was there when the did the filming, though - I think that was mostly weekends.

Oop. :smalleek:
I feel very silly for not noticing the final part of your post. Sounds like it would be a cool, if very stressful, place to work though. :smallredface:

Are we comparing pre- and post-Cerebus HP again? :smallsigh:
The books started out silly. Like, Phantom Tollbooth silly. Poring through that phase for complex character motivations is ludicrous.

The justice system sometimes, but not always, intervenes at school. How many college students do you think are caught underage drinking? Now how many do you think have to pay a fine to the city or do time?

And yes, perforating another student is more severe, but still not as severe at Hogwarts as it would be in our world.

I have a relative who gave up on HP partways through The Sorcerer's Stone because the way that adults were portrayed was "Roald Dahlian" in its ludicrosity (if that's not a word, it ought to be). I've since read people saying that the drastic change in tone in the books is because Harry, and thus the way he views the world, is supposed to mature over the series, which I'll buy. Rowling's always said she planned the story-arch of all seven books on a single trainride... I'm somewhat sceptical about how true that is, but I do think she had a basic plan quite early on. So I kind of think that the early books ought to stand up to scrutiny to an extent, but it should also be remembered that Harry was just a kid and thus his interpretation of things may not have been rock solid evidence as to what was going on.

As for the "for enemies" spell in Half Blood Prince? I'm with the people who think that HP should at least have got a sterner talking to and an essay on "why using random mysterious spells marked 'for enemies' on fellow students is a Bad Thing to Do". The way he just got to trot off was just nuts.
I guess part of the thinking was that a) Potter was a busy little prize pig horcrux hunter/ troubled child and b)witnessing exactly what that spell did to another kid ought to have been traumatising enough for a sensitive kid like Harry for him not to need further punishment. Whether I think Harry is sensitive or not, I think Dumbledore probably did and Snape seemed to think it might have been a weakness (see: occulomency lessons) of his, even if it was one that was coupled with infuriating levels of arrogance.
If knowledge of the incident stayed with Snape, Harry and Draco (I can't remember the scene all that well) then there'd be fair reason to not punish Potter properly. They were supposedly plotting to kill the headmaster, they didn't want to be put under the sort of scrutiny that punishing Harry for this act might put them under, plus, Snape cared about Harry more than Malfoy in the end anyway so... eh.

Witter, witter, witter witter

Traab

2011-12-31, 10:46 AM

I find it hard to believe that that one spider could multiple that quickly especially since he'd have been the only giant spider. Also, why would it have been so difficult for the wizard staff to deal with one family of spiders?

Still find that unlikely. How old is Hogwarts? The plumbing would have been installed well after the schools initial completion so they would have installed new one. The passageway should have been detected. I also find it that hard to believe even with wards the chamber wouldn't have been detected.

What curse are you talking about? Also, too bad there aren't any like wizards or magic users in these books capable of dealing with such magical matters like removing curses.:smallwink: Oh, and Snape was more than eager to take the job. And they could have just merged the position with something else.

Book four there was also the reporter that could turn into a ladybug. While not evil, it does show how easy it is for just anyone to sneak onto Hogwarts grounds. And book five the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher sent the dementor at the start after Harry.

Not to mention after what happened in book 1, you think security and monitoring would be a lot stricter.

Still is extremely dangerous and foolish. Making yourself seem busy is one thing. Sending dangerous creatures out near children is another. It'd be like a politician wanting to seem useful by sending dozens of hungry tigers and bears in an area he suspects a criminal might be. The body count's gonna be beyond count. Not to mention if he wanted to come off as being able to solve a problem, he could have just sent like 50 of his best wizards out to patrol Hogwarts grounds. Although given the incompetence of the wizards in these books, maybe sending these creatures out was the better option.:smallwink:

1) Have you ever seen a spiders egg sack? Ill grant you the missing mate thing, but didnt hagrid mention bringing in a mate for his cuddly little aragog at one point? If not, I freaking DARE you to try and claim it isnt something he would have done. But yeah, 40 years worth of mating, give or take, with an exponential increase each year as the various young born last time pair off and mate themselves. This is a quote off of one of those ask.com type answer sites.

The number of eggs laid during a spider's lifetime varies according to the species. Some larger spiders lay more than two thousand eggs, but many tiny spiders lay as few as one or two, or as many as a dozen eggs. Spiders of average size probably lay around one hundred eggs. Most spiders lay all their eggs at one time and enclose them in a single egg sac; others lay a series of eggs over a period of time and enclose them in multiple egg sacs.

So its not unlikely to have hundreds of hatching eggs every cycle.

2) It was built by one of the founders of the school itself. Thats like trying to second guess merlins spell work for this series. Plus as has been said, it is only findable with parseltounge. Finally, what makes you think the bathroom fixtures are more than cosmetic? They have spells to conjure water, and to vanish things. Setup some proper runes on the faucets and you get unlimited hot or cold water on tap with no pipes. Put more on the toilets and everything is washed down into the hole where it gets vanished. No septic tanks, no sewerage lines, nothing. Not saying this is how it worked, but it could have. All these things exist in the storyline itself.

3) The curse on the DADA position after voldemort got turned down for it. As for why it hasnt been broken, who knows? Maybe voldemort was exceptionally powerful and subtle with the curse so its hard to locate the source of it inside of hogwarts, which is probably the most magical spot in england? As for Snape, meh, maybe he wanted to get the hell out of hogwarts? He pretty obviously hated everything about teaching except the tormenting students part. And teaching DADA would let him use magic on his students! WOOT! :smallbiggrin:

4) I was only covering death eaters and versions of voldemort sneaking in.

5) True, but fudge is an idiot who is on malfoys payroll. Plus, from what I think was stated in several ways, the auror forces are fairly low as it is. He probably couldnt post a significant force at hogwarts without stripping places like diagon alley (And am I the only one that wants to know if there is a vertic alley and horizant alley?) and the minsitry building of protection.