What are decent feats to take as level 1 wizard?

[killem2]

After discovering the flaws and traits system (which I am really glad that was added to 3.5), I'm retroactively allowing them.

We're only level 2, so its no big deal, and I know my players will like it quite a lot, and are very much melee based so they will get a lot of mileage for their future prestige classes.

I play a wizard evoker, focused specialist, who also is taking the spell gifted trait, so I cast at 1 cl higher on evocation. I'm basically an obsession little gnome, who loves evocation, and banned illusion, necromancy, and enchantment.

But looking over the feats, I'm not exactly sure what to take at this point.

Suggestions?

[Tyndmyr]

As a blaster, anything that let's you nuke faster, harder, or more often is a win.

I suggest looking at Fiery Burst at level 3. This will enable you to do minor aoe fire blasts for free as long as you have an uncast fire spell. In addition, it provides +1 CL to fire spells. Both of these are good things.

Spell Thematics provides +1 CL to one spell at each level. IE, whatever your favorite blasting spell is. You could take that one now.

That said, your post indicates your both playing and DMing. This can be...problematic, and you probably don't want to push your optimization too far.

[Max Zoren]

As a focused specialist you could get a lot of use out of Metamagic School Focus (from Complete Mage) and a good +1 metamagic feat. As a focused specialist conjurer I had fun with this, the spell gifted trait and Extend Spell or Sculpt Spell.

Improved Initiative wouldn't be a bad option, anything to help you get the first shot off before the melee guys charge in and get in the way of your blasting (or is that just my party that always does that :smallsigh:).

[Flickerdart]

Bloodline of Fire is lovely for a blaster, but you don't qualify. If you have a couple of points in Knowledge (The Planes), you can take Elemental Spellcasting (PlH) to boost an element by 1 CL.

[gkathellar]

Since metamagic feats generally don't have prereqs, taking them at 1st level is generally an okay option. It won't give you any immediate benefit, but it'll help out later.

[killem2]

That said, your post indicates your both playing and DMing. This can be...problematic, and you probably don't want to push your optimization too far.

yah,i'm the dm, and I've been through hell and back on these boards about it already :) we're doing great, and choosing evocation as the choice is the groups choice. They wanted a wizard, and none of them wanted to be a wizard, and I wanted to play a wizard, and I told them, to pick the specialist and I would roleplay around, and they agreed evocation was perfect.


Where is that fiery burst and thematic one located?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Since metamagic feats generally don't have prereqs, taking them at 1st level is generally an okay option. It won't give you any immediate benefit, but it'll help out later.


yah,i'm the dm, and I've been through hell and back on these boards about it already :) we're doing great, and choosing evocation as the choice is the groups choice. They wanted a wizard, and none of them wanted to be a wizard, and I wanted to play a wizard, and I told them, to pick the specialist and I would roleplay around, and they agreed evocation was perfect.

Extend Spell is good for buffs, but that's not blasting. You can't go wrong with Improved Initiative, in the case with flaws. If you have access to Complete Mage, the "specialist" feats like Cloudy Conjuration work well. The evocation one is one way to bypass resistances, but not the best. The best bet is Alacritous Cogitation (CM, 37). It only works once per day to pretend your a sorcerer, which is worse than Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil, 26), but it doesn't require Spell Mastery to get. With two flaws, I'd rather nab Uncanny Forethought (assuming you have access, naturally).

As you're also the DM, item creation feats could work, if for no other reason than to just eat feat slots and have a go-to character to provide gear to the players after they get quest rewards and the like, but most of them have caster level requirements the gnome doesn't meet.


EDIT: Fiery Burst is Complete Mage, 43, but requires 2nd level spells. Spell Thematics is in Player's Guide to Faerun, page 44.

[killem2]

Hey thanks alot :)

I do have craft armor as a skill, and i will be making magical armor when I can do that later on.

[Endarire]

Improved Initiative.
Practiced Spellcaster - to negate the penalty of Spellgifted and for future PrCs that dump casting.

See also Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer?pg=1).

[SowZ]

Craft Wondrous Item. To be able to do any of your 0 level spells at will, an unlimited number of times per day, for about 400 gold and any of your first level spells for less than a thousand is awesome.

[killem2]

Craft Wondrous Item. To be able to do any of your 0 level spells at will, an unlimited number of times per day, for about 400 gold and any of your first level spells for less than a thousand is awesome.

That's pretty sweet, but I don't think I can do that at level 1 can i? I did plan on picking it up at level 3.

[Palanan]

One feat I always wanted to try was Collegiate Wizard, from Complete Arcane. Extra spells at first level, plus extra spells at each new level, and a nice bonus to Knowledge (arcana). It might be a little tricky to retcon, but worth checking out.

[DrDeth]

If your DM allows Feat re-training, then Toughness is very good @ 1st level. Mind you, it’s terrible after level 3.

[Flickerdart]

If your DM allows Feat re-training, then Toughness is very good @ 1st level. Mind you, it’s terrible after level 3.
Toughness is never "very" good. Or good. Or okay. Even at 1st level, most other options are better than Toughness.

[Rubik]

Toughness is never "very" good. Or good. Or okay. Even at 1st level, most other options are better than Toughness.Grab a toad familiar.

I'm pretty sure you get your hp by licking it, but I'm not big on how those psychoactive things work.

[Rossebay]

Grab a toad familiar.

I'm pretty sure you get your hp by licking it, but I'm not big on how those psychoactive things work.

Bahaha. Genius.


Anyway, Collegiate Wizard is one I'd definitely suggest to you. It pays off in the end(more spells known is never something to scoff at).

Aside from Spell Focus or something like that to open up Prestige Classes, go for Metamagic.

[killem2]

Is the collegiate wizard really a good option if I'm a focused specialist with three banned schools?

I just don't want to end up in a spot where I can't learn anymore spells because I've learned them all already.

Though I suppose even with 3 schools banned, I still have a very large number of other spells to choose from.

Might be worth it.

[Flickerdart]

Collegiate Wizard is mostly a guard against poor scroll availability/lack of downtime, and as the DM you control both of those things. You would gain no benefit from it.

[Rubik]

Collegiate Wizard is mostly a guard against poor scroll availability/lack of downtime, and as the DM you control both of those things. You would gain no benefit from it.That depends entirely on the nature of the campaign. What if K2 likes time-sensitive adventures?

[gbprime]

If your DM allows retraining, pick up Precocious Apprentice, select a fire spell of some kind with it, and also pick up Fiery Burst. The spell in the first feat fuels the Reserve feat starting at first level, meaning you're never without the ability to do 2d6 blasts of fire whenever you want. Then at level 6, retrain one or both into requirements for your prestige class of choice.

[Rossebay]

That depends entirely on the nature of the campaign. What if K2 likes time-sensitive adventures?

Or, what if he's not gifting himself with knowledge?

[Novawurmson]

If your DM allows Feat re-training, then Toughness is very good @ 1st level. Mind you, it’s terrible after level 3.

Pathfinder Toughness is pretty decent, especially in low-op environments.

Are you planning to go into a prestige class later on? See what you need in terms of prereqs now.

[killem2]

I don't really control as much as you think. A lot of the treasure comes from random tables. I guess we could buy scrolls.

But I won't actively ban scrolls. Some people might want to use them for the schools I have banned.

[Andion Isurand]

Unless you really need the feat to meet prerequisites, I usually recommend Keen Intellect (a first level only feat) for wizards looking for a better dump stat. Found in Dragon Magazine 318, it's the 3.5 version of the feat from Oriental Adventures.

It says you may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier for Will saves, as well as for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks.

[SowZ]

That's pretty sweet, but I don't think I can do that at level 1 can i? I did plan on picking it up at level 3.

Yeah yeah, you're right.

[Tyndmyr]

yah,i'm the dm, and I've been through hell and back on these boards about it already :)

Well, since I don't particularly want to repeat an argument, I'll just state that I'm on the side of those who believe this is a bad idea.

I will, however, state that you most certainly want to watch the optimization level very closely, and not exceed the rest of the party. DMPC is bad enough. DMPC who has notably more power than the rest of the party....bad things lie that way.

[Darrin]

But looking over the feats, I'm not exactly sure what to take at this point.


For a blaster:

Searing Spell (Sandstorm). All your fire spells ignore fire resistance, and creatures with complete fire immunity still take half damage.

Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage). Pair up with Searing Spell to reduce the spell level adjustment to zero 3/day.

Energy Substitution (Complete Arcane). Another good way to get around energy resistance. Also, it doesn't change the spell level, so it doesn't muck up your higher-level spell slots.

Sculpt Spell (Complete Arcane). Convert a spell with a small area effect (such as burning hands) into something that can blanket the entire battlefield. The four 10' cubes option also lets you sculpt an area effect around your allies once both sides have closed to melee range.

Sudden Empower/Maximize (Complete Arcane). Generally sneered at because you don't get a lot of bang for your buck, but for a DMPC blaster this gives you a 1/day "money shot" you can bring out if the party bites off more than they can chew.

[DrDeth]

Toughness is never "very" good. Or good. Or okay. Even at 1st level, most other options are better than Toughness.

No matter how powerful your wizard is, his spell selection is very limited when under the “dead” condition. Toughness can double the HP of a 1st level wizard. Now sure, if you are able to start with a 16 CON, well then, it’s not very good. But when any hit at all takes you down, it makes things less fun.

I know that Toughness is laughed at as so many “build” for 20 levels, and certainly after a few levels it’s not very good.

PF toughness is basically 3.5 Improved Toughness (but w/o the pre-req), and yes Novawurmson, it can be good.

OP, I have posted my “confessions of a repentant DMPC DM “ here on thse boards twice. Not only is a DMPC a bad idea, the very very worst class of all to play as a DMPC is a wizard. It’s a tier 1 class, thus meaning it will have a lot of spotlight time. Also, part of being a wizard is always having the right spell- tomorrow. But you’ll KNOW what the right spells are going to be. That takes a LOT of the fun & challenge out of being a wizard.

[Flickerdart]

No matter how powerful your wizard is, his spell selection is very limited when under the “dead” condition. Toughness can double the HP of a 1st level wizard. Now sure, if you are able to start with a 16 CON, well then, it’s not very good. But when any hit at all takes you down, it makes things less fun.
The amount of HP you get relative to how much you already have is absolutely irrelevant. With only six hit points, most attacks will make you as dead as if you had only three - your basic CR 1/2 Orc deals 6 damage minimum, for instance. Instead of wasting this feat slot on something that will practically never actually save you, it's best to use it on a good feat like Improved Initiative, so you can go before the other guy and shoot him in the face first.

Improved Toughness is also a terrible feat. Damage scales much faster than hit dice do, so the bonus you get from it gets worse and worse. An Amulet of Health +2 (4000gp) is better than this feat, because it also grants you a bonus to Fortitude saves and Concentration checks, holding your breath, running, and so forth. 4k is a drop in the bucket at the majority of the game's levels, but you only get seven feats. Do you really think that one of them is worth only 4k?

[Tyndmyr]

Improved Toughness is also a terrible feat. Damage scales much faster than hit dice do, so the bonus you get from it gets worse and worse. An Amulet of Health +2 (4000gp) is better than this feat, because it also grants you a bonus to Fortitude saves and Concentration checks, holding your breath, running, and so forth. 4k is a drop in the bucket at the majority of the game's levels, but you only get seven feats. Do you really think that one of them is worth only 4k?

As the sort of person who has often taken Improved Toughness, I can assure you that I always run the amulet as well(or, more likely, the MiC +con boost added to some other item). Usually, I have at least a +4 once it's affordable.

It's not a matter of replacing the 4k. It's in addition to the 4k.

HP tend to be targetted a lot. Other defenses should be used too...but using them as a reason to neglect hp can lead to the thing you missed dropping you instantly.

[killem2]

Well, since I don't particularly want to repeat an argument, I'll just state that I'm on the side of those who believe this is a bad idea.

I will, however, state that you most certainly want to watch the optimization level very closely, and not exceed the rest of the party. DMPC is bad enough. DMPC who has notably more power than the rest of the party....bad things lie that way.


Fair enough, I stand on the side of those who contain willpower. With that said, I'm not going to play a wizard, to just make it suck, because that HURTS my party. They have a player who sucks down their XP at encounters and can't pull their weight.

I really like the blaster idea as we start getting into more campaigns, with stronger monsters, and have spell resistance, that I will become less and less effective. I fully expect for the first few levels while we're going through this, orc/human/ bandit story I got going, I will be doing more damage for a burst period of time, but the longer the dungeon the less effective I become.




OP, I have posted my “confessions of a repentant DMPC DM “ here on thse boards twice. Not only is a DMPC a bad idea, the very very worst class of all to play as a DMPC is a wizard. It’s a tier 1 class, thus meaning it will have a lot of spotlight time. Also, part of being a wizard is always having the right spell- tomorrow. But you’ll KNOW what the right spells are going to be. That takes a LOT of the fun & challenge out of being a wizard.

I'm sorry you couldn't do it. I can. I have the ability to pick spells that I would WANT as a player, not what I think I'll need as the DM.

Just because I KNOW the dungeon, doesn't mean a damn thing. It really, really doesn't. If you knew the dungeon as the dm and you abused that to pick spells to favor the out come, that's not because you are a DM and you have a PC that, is a problem you should have been able to over come.

I have not this issue. Nearly all my dungeons I make are randomly generated, and I pick my spells based on what the story line would have told me. Its very easy for me to think logically and chronologically to know what info I would have had as a player.

Just as a jury has to ignore blatant things in a courtroom, I fail to see why so many think that it can't be done in a meer game.

[Tyndmyr]

Fair enough, I stand on the side of those who contain willpower. With that said, I'm not going to play a wizard, to just make it suck, because that HURTS my party. They have a player who sucks down their XP at encounters and can't pull their weight.

I would not characterize the pro-DMPC crowd as "the side containing willpower".

That implies rather negative things about the other side, and is...a rather mangled summary of the argument as a whole.

[killem2]

I would not characterize the pro-DMPC crowd as "the side containing willpower".

That implies rather negative things about the other side, and is...a rather mangled summary of the argument as a whole.

Not really, the entire aspect of it is based on these forums overall and outright prejudgment that because wizards have the most powerful abilities and effects in the game, that everyone will abuse it, and push it to the far most reaches that their optimization can allow.

On top of that, the other argument is, the "conflict of interest" that is also prejudged. One will automatically assume because I know the dungeon, I know the monsters, I know what will happen, I automatically will then bend the dungeon like neo bends the spoon. My will be done! I don't think so.

That's where will power comes in. If you can't be willing to simply set aside what your character would know and not know, then it could just as easily be said, you cannot control your need to "metagame" as it is stated here and in the DMG books.

You are actively using outside knowledge that you as a person knows but not what your character knows.

I'm also one of the most specialized wizards you can have, I took every role playing trait and flaw to accent this, I chose a school that not only my players wanted, but that is considered to be a joke around here. I banned three respectable schools of magic as well.

I take it to the negative level because I feel a little offended, that people can't just accept that fact they are wrong this .0000000001% of the time because there is in fact a DM with a PC and the world has not went to ****! :smallbiggrin:


I hope anyone who reads this, can remember it. I mean, sure I might be outspoken about one persons way to play, and I'll post that opinion, but I don't keep ragging on them about. All it does is detracts people from the main subject: Wanting to know about feats.

It doesn't really matter now, I got the help I needed. Spell Thematics is really neat and so is Collegiate Wizard.

[Tyndmyr]

Not really, the entire aspect of it is based on these forums overall and outright prejudgment that because wizards have the most powerful abilities and effects in the game, that everyone will abuse it, and push it to the far most reaches that their optimization can allow.

That is...not a fair characterization of optimization or the warnings given. It's pretty well known that tier is a description of potential, not actual power.


On top of that, the other argument is, the "conflict of interest" that is also prejudged. One will automatically assume because I know the dungeon, I know the monsters, I know what will happen, I automatically will then bend the dungeon like neo bends the spoon. My will be done! I don't think so.

That's where will power comes in. If you can't be willing to simply set aside what your character would know and not know, then it could just as easily be said, you cannot control your need to "metagame" as it is stated here and in the DMG books.

Regardless of if you choose to win or choose to lose, it's metagaming either way. You're making decisions based on info the rest of the players don't have.

In short, you cannot play a wizard in the same way that another player would. The very nature of your foreknowledge means that the guessing game just does not work. It's like playing the game "Taboo" while the guessing team can see the card.


You are actively using outside knowledge that you as a person knows but not what your character knows.

I'm also one of the most specialized wizards you can have, I took every role playing trait and flaw to accent this, I chose a school that not only my players wanted, but that is considered to be a joke around here. I banned three respectable schools of magic as well.

Being a very specialized wizard is not a nerf. It is a solidly powerful option that is well regarded in op circles. Your aggrieved tone is a bit out of place here as taking flaws and traits to boost your specialized school IS optimization, not deliberately holding back.


I take it to the negative level because I feel a little offended, that people can't just accept that fact they are wrong this .0000000001% of the time because there is in fact a DM with a PC and the world has not went to ****! :smallbiggrin:

I hate to break it to you, but assuming you are the top .0000000001% pretty much just comes across as hyperbole, especially in a thread where you are asking advice. Even people who like and dislike DMPCs agree that not all DMPCs are created equally, and creating an active DMPC of a higher tier than the rest of the party and engaging in optimization for it is...highly risky. Even a great many of those who support DMPCs in general would be quite skeptical of such a plan.


I hope anyone who reads this, can remember it. I mean, sure I might be outspoken about one persons way to play, and I'll post that opinion, but I don't keep ragging on them about. All it does is detracts people from the main subject: Wanting to know about feats.

It doesn't really matter now, I got the help I needed. Spell Thematics is really neat and so is Collegiate Wizard.

I'm glad you enjoyed the recommendations, I merely hope you'll consider the other advice given as well.

[SowZ]

As the sort of person who has often taken Improved Toughness, I can assure you that I always run the amulet as well(or, more likely, the MiC +con boost added to some other item). Usually, I have at least a +4 once it's affordable.

It's not a matter of replacing the 4k. It's in addition to the 4k.

HP tend to be targetted a lot. Other defenses should be used too...but using them as a reason to neglect hp can lead to the thing you missed dropping you instantly.

See, in D&D the best defense is a good offense. Improved initiative, a good metamagic feat, etc. etc. are all ways to deal more damage faster. Dealing damage is a better defense of your HP than 3 HP is by a long shot, even at low levels.

This is why an experienced party with good op will usually skip on healing unless absolutely necessary and do damage during a turn where all the party members have been hit.

[Coidzor]

Improved Initiative is always a fair feat, especially if a lot of your battlefield control is best placed sooner rather than later.

Collegiate Wizard means you automatically get more spells known per level without having to scribe them, which can be very useful if your build requires a lot of spells or the DM is stingy in any way.

Precocious Apprentice can be good, especially if you can retrain it later.

Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) gives you an additional buffer while you're weak and squishy against the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.


Not really, the entire aspect of it is based on these forums overall and outright prejudgment that because wizards have the most powerful abilities and effects in the game, that everyone will abuse it, and push it to the far most reaches that their optimization can allow.

Eh? :smallconfused: It seems to me then that you've misread the intent and meaning behind a lot of material on these forums. If one has to ask about how to build a wizard, then one demonstrates that one is not intimately aware of them inside and out, and therefore the potential for messing things up, especially if one is the DM and this is a DMPC and so one has a hundred other things to be concerned with, just grows exponentially.

Whereas, on the other hand, a player that doesn't know the game and is resistant or slow to learn it will either stumble upon a trick that works well, perhaps abusively so, or struggle to use the class at all. So, basically, wizards demand a high level of system mastery in order to have confidence that nothing will go wrong.

And, you know, having that hundred other things to do is a very strong indicator that shortcuts will be taken, and DMPCs are just one of those areas more likely to have corners cut on them, which is why they're encouraged to be passive things, predominantly in the background rather than foreground if one must have them at all. Plus it helps with the players feeling like they're getting enough "screen" time.

[Telonius]

Do you see the character branching out into any PrCs? I'm generally a fan of taking prereqs as early as possible.

[SowZ]

Fair enough, I stand on the side of those who contain willpower. With that said, I'm not going to play a wizard, to just make it suck, because that HURTS my party. They have a player who sucks down their XP at encounters and can't pull their weight.

I really like the blaster idea as we start getting into more campaigns, with stronger monsters, and have spell resistance, that I will become less and less effective. I fully expect for the first few levels while we're going through this, orc/human/ bandit story I got going, I will be doing more damage for a burst period of time, but the longer the dungeon the less effective I become.




I'm sorry you couldn't do it. I can. I have the ability to pick spells that I would WANT as a player, not what I think I'll need as the DM.

Just because I KNOW the dungeon, doesn't mean a damn thing. It really, really doesn't. If you knew the dungeon as the dm and you abused that to pick spells to favor the out come, that's not because you are a DM and you have a PC that, is a problem you should have been able to over come.

I have not this issue. Nearly all my dungeons I make are randomly generated, and I pick my spells based on what the story line would have told me. Its very easy for me to think logically and chronologically to know what info I would have had as a player.

Just as a jury has to ignore blatant things in a courtroom, I fail to see why so many think that it can't be done in a meer game.

I think a problem playing a damage dealing GMPC is that you will take away kills from the players. Getting kills is a lot of fun. I would focus more on buffing the players.

I wouldn't take PrCs and I wouldn't specialize. Early on, you are right, you will do more burst damage and then fizzle out in long dungeons. Mid levels, you will be able to sustain your ability to do more damage then the rest of the party. As you get to higher levels, Spell Resistance monsters will not normally reduce your effectiveness enough to slow you down compared to the rest of the party. If anything, the higher level you get the more obsolete any other non optimized non magical damage focusing player will become.

So, yeah, I think being a primarily crafting, largely buffing, few utility, and a few damage spells wizard is the best if you are going to go DMPC. I don't think you should cripple yourself with feats either, though. Another temptation is with a high Int. DMPC is to make suggestions to the players or try and take a leadership role. Make sure you don't, is all.