Geomancer, Mystic Ranger and you.

[Joshinthemosh]

Hi Playground. So I was reading the Worst Prerequisites thread and several people brought up Geomancer. A class I loved...........until I really looked at the spellcasting advancement issue which really kills it for everyone.

Geomancer Complete Divine pg. 41
For those curious Geomancer requires
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 6 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells and 2nd-level
divine spells.

And it only advances one spellcasting class.

But what if Kaje(credit where credit's due) point about Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Rangers into Geomancer is correct? A SOTAO character effectively has arcane and divine spellcasting. But as the feat says you do not have a wizard caster level simply by taking the feat. So to achieve the Geomancer prereq we take a level of Wizard.

This build Mystic Ranger 4/Wizard 1 qualifies to take Geomancer at 6th level.

Now here's the tricky part. You advance Mystic Ranger casting with Geomancer. The Sword of the Arcane Order feat say and quote(Champions of Valor pg. 34) "If you have levels of Wizard your Wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your Ranger, Paladian, and Wizard levels."

Does this mean that by advancing Mystic Ranger casting I am also advancing my wizard casting? For example I could have a Wizard 1/Mystic Ranger 4/Geomancer 10/Abjurant Champion 5 at level 20 and have 14 levels of Mystic Ranger Divine casting and 20 levels of Wizard casting?

Please and thank you.

[sreservoir]

hm, I suppose the feat could be read to give arcane spells out of your ranger slots. you'd still need to be 4th level to take it, though, even if you're a mystic ranger, so you'll need to be at least 6th to take the feat, delaying your entry.

that said, increasing caster level won't improve your spell slots for wizard. so your caster level will go up, but you won't learn higher-level spells to go with them.

[Greenish]

You want into Geomancer as a single-classed caster, yes, you take a feat.

The feat, though, is not SotAO. You want Southern Magician from Races of Faerün.

[The Underlord]

Since it only advances caster level, you would need some way of gaining

1. More spell slots, since IIRC Mystic ranger doesn't get high level spells and you prepare spells in the mystic ranger spells slots so you would have to split your spell slots

2. More spells known, since you don't automatically gain wizard spells known

Also, how are you getting into abjurant champion IIRC it requires arcane spellcasting, which you don't have since the spells are still divine spells, not arcane because it doesn't say you they are arcane, so since you prepare them in your mystic ranger slots, which are divine, so it would make since your spells are divine.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Greenish
The feat, though, is not SotAO. You want Southern Magician from Races of Faerûn.


Why would Southern Magician be used here, rather than SotAO? --Not contesting your statement, as such, just would like to know more.

Also, fixed your umlaut for you. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Why would Southern Magician be used here, rather than SotAO?Because you can us Southern Magician with most any caster, not just ranger (or paladin), and you can enter earlier.

Want wizard 3/Geomancer? Can do!

[Gotterdammerung]

Does this mean that by advancing Mystic Ranger casting I am also advancing my wizard casting? For example I could have a Wizard 1/Mystic Ranger 4/Geomancer 10/Abjurant Champion 5 at level 20 and have 14 levels of Mystic Ranger Divine casting and 20 levels of Wizard casting?


Well first a rng4/wiz1 doesnt meet the prerequs for geomancer simply because it can not cast any spells of 2nd lvl yet.

Second, You would have the spells of a 6th lvl wizard. The spells of a 14th lvl ranger with the ability to prepare wizard spells in your ranger slots. You would be able to use int or wisdom to set your bonus spells and DC's. You would be able to ignore arcane spell failure from armor on your spells. You would be able to use a divine focus instead of a material component in a few instances.

However you are right about the caster lvl.. sort of. The caster lvl for your wizard spells would be 20. The caster lvl for your ranger spells would be 14 or 20, your choice. Because spell versatility lets you use the most beneficial aspects of divine versus arcane, you can choose your divine caster lvl of 14 or your arcane caster lvl of 20 for any of your spells.


But, as someone else stated, a much stronger geomancer build is to use southern magician and go
3 chosen casting class/10 geomancer/7 watever you want

But if you really want to stick with the sword of the arcane order route, and use some sort of agreement with your gm to bypass geomancer prerequs, the best plan is to use paladin instead of ranger. paladin of freedom(mystra) 4/bard1/geomancer5(advancing bard)/ sublime chord 1/ geomancer 5 (advancing sublime chord)/ sublime chord4 then use a feat to make all paladin spells swift actions to cast and use spell versatility to apply this parameter to all your spells.

P.S. I absolutely love this class. The power of spell versatility is often misunderstood because it lists some examples of how to use it. But those examples are not the only way the ability can be used. The ability explicitly allows you to mix and match any beneficial parameters for your spells.

[Joshinthemosh]

"Well first a rng4/wiz1 doesnt meet the prerequs for geomancer simply because it can not cast any spells of 2nd lvl yet."


Second, You would have the spells of a 6th lvl wizard. The spells of a 14th lvl ranger with the ability to prepare wizard spells in your ranger slots. You would be able to use int or wisdom to set your bonus spells and DC's. You would be able to ignore arcane spell failure from armor on your spells. You would be able to use a divine focus instead of a material component in a few instances.

However you are right about the caster lvl.. sort of. The caster lvl for your wizard spells would be 20. The caster lvl for your ranger spells would be 14 or 20, your choice. Because spell versatility lets you use the most beneficial aspects of divine versus arcane, you can choose your divine caster lvl of 14 or your arcane caster lvl of 20 for any of your spells.

Emphasis mine. Mystic Ranger has casting from level one and advances as a Sorcerer for the first 10 levels. Giving me 2nd level slots at level 4. With a level of Wizard added that gives me 3rd level Wizard slots and 2nd level ranger slots.

You see my confusion about this whole caster level/spell knowledge thing.....yeah still not totally sure what to do about it.

Edit: Gotterdammerung I'm sorry for the formatting nightmare of my response to you.

[Gotterdammerung]

Emphasis mine. Mystic Ranger has casting from level one and advances as a Sorcerer for the first 10 levels. Giving me 2nd level slots at level 4. With a level of Wizard added that gives me 3rd level Wizard slots and 2nd level ranger slots.


Ah, np i didn't see "mystic" is all. It's there in the OP i just missed it.

But your still misunderstanding the text of SotAO. You add your wiz, pld and rng lvls together for caster lvl, not for casting lvl. A mystic ranger 4/wiz 1 with SotAO would only have 0 and 1st lvl wizard spells but he would cast them at a caster lvl of 5.



Edit: Gotterdammerung I'm sorry for the formatting nightmare of my response to you.
It is alright, i was able to read it. It just took some extra effort.

[gkathellar]

The skinny is that yes, you can use Geomancer to remove an SotAO ranger's MAD issues by going full-Wisdom, and yes, an SotAO ranger with 2nd-level spells qualifies as a Geomancer.

[The Underlord]

A mystic ranger 4/wiz 1 with SotAO would only have 0 and 1st lvl wizard spells but he would cast them at a caster lvl of 5.

This is completely right except for that you can learn higher level spells that you could prepare in mystic ranger slots, either frrom more levels in wizard, or scrolls and other's spellbooks

[Kaje]

RAW, I'm not sure if the ranger can benefit from spell versatility, as he does not have two classes to mix and match parameters, but rather one class and a feat. I'd think any reasonable DM would allow it though. The real fun in the drifts.

SotAO Mystic Ranger is also my favorite Arcane Archer entry.:smallsmile:

[Palanan]

Going back to Southern Magician for a minute...is this widely accepted, using the feat in this way?

As I read it, the wording of the feat suggests that spells aren't actually being converted from arcane to divine, or vice versa; rather, an arcane spell is cast in a way that only emulates a divine spell with regard to certain effects. (Or vice versa.) The feat specifies that the way the spell is prepared doesn't change, nor does its original source of power.

For me, this wouldn't really satisfy the spellcasting requirements for the geomancer. Clearly other folks see it differently. Is this something of a debatable trick, or would most folks let it slide?

[Gotterdammerung]

Going back to Southern Magician for a minute...is this widely accepted, using the feat in this way?

As I read it, the wording of the feat suggests that spells aren't actually being converted from arcane to divine, or vice versa; rather, an arcane spell is cast in a way that only emulates a divine spell with regard to certain effects. (Or vice versa.) The feat specifies that the way the spell is prepared doesn't change, nor does its original source of power.

For me, this wouldn't really satisfy the spellcasting requirements for the geomancer. Clearly other folks see it differently. Is this something of a debatable trick, or would most folks let it slide?

SOUTHERN MAGICIAN

General Feat

Your magical studies in Mulan lands have taught you spellcasting techniques unknown in the north that blur the line between arcane and divine magic.

Prerequisite: ability to cast 2nd-level spells, Mulan human,

Benefit: Once per day per two spellcaster levels, you can cast a divine spell as an arcane spell, or vice versa. This enables you to bypass arcane spell failure due to armor, or gain additional benefit from spell that functions differently for a divine caster instead of an arcane caster, such as true seeing or magic weapon. Spells changed with this feat are often confusing to whose who haven't studied Mulan magic. Spellcasters who don't have this feat suffer a -4 penalty on attempts to counterspell or dispel this spell, and they must succeed at a caster level check (DC 11 + spell level) to detect the spell with detect magic. The actual source of the spell's power doesn't change, nor does its means of preparation. You are merely weaving the strands of magic together in an unconventional way that makes the spell behave somewhat differently.


That is pretty clear. Checking prerequs for Geomancer...
Can you cast an arcane spell of 2nd lvl?
Yep.

Can you cast a divine spell of 2nd lvl?
Yep.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



It works and it is a real great way to get the most out of geomancer. Not only does it get you in 3 lvls earlier, but you also don't have to be 2 different casting classes. And if you do want to mix around classes it requires less dipping.

My favorite concoction for geomancer is
Bard4/Geomancer1/(retrain Southern Magician) Ur-priest 2/Geomancer3(increasing Ur-priest)/(retrain back to southern magician) Sublime chord 1/

From here the last bit can be done in any order but consists of

Geomancer 5(increasing Sublime chord)
Geomancer 1 (increasing Ur Priest)
Mystic Theurge 3 (increasing sublime chord and urpriest)

Ends with 0-2nd lvl bard spells; 0-9th lvl Ur-priest spells; and 4th-9th lvl Sublime chord spells. You can mix and match parameters from all the spells and you have rebuke attempts and bardic musics to fuel metamagics on all your spells if you want. You can put everything into charisma and use that stat for all your classes. With practiced spellcaster (ur-priest) you end up with a 19th caster lvl and because of spell versatility you can use that caster lvl for all you spells, even your wittle bard spells.

Necessary Feats:
Spell focus (evil)
Practiced spellcaster
Southern Magician
Able learner
(Get iron will for free from otyugh hole if you can, if not tack it on as necessary)

So with 1 flaw and an otyugh hole you can have all your relevant feats by 3rd lvl.

The rest of the feats are up to preferences.

[Palanan]

It's the last two sentences that led me to wonder about it. If this is a commonly accepted trick, fair enough.

[TheGeckoKing]

It's the last two sentences that led me to wonder about it. If this is a commonly accepted trick, fair enough.

The lines mean the way the spells are prepared (Cleric needs to pray, Wizard needs a book etc.) nor their source (God, Book, Internal etc.) don't change, even though their typing does. You don't need pray to a god for your divine Wizard spells or require a spellbook for your arcane Cleric spells, for example.

[Zaq]

Also, fixed your umlaut for you. :smalltongue:

Isn't that a circumflex?

[sreservoir]

Isn't that a circumflex?

feh, it's a superimposed caret, totally not a circumflex accent!