Trying to think of a 4th character

[Suddo]

So I'm about to show a couple of my gaming friends 3.5 for the first time. I'll be DMing, my first time on that side of the screen, and I've found a fun looking campaign to run. They are new so I'll be building their characters, I'm the only one with books right now, the problem I've run into is that I can't think of a good fourth character, maybe I've made the characters too rounded. So I turn to you playground what do you think it should be.

Here are some important notes:

The team so far: Bard, Factotum, Warblade.
They are familiar with other games and will probably pick it up fast, but are still new. You may not that the three so far are a bit advance, no simple stabby stabby characters, and I did that on purpose to not have anyone bored as a stump because they can't do anything in the battle.
The campaign will run from levels 5 - 10 according to the book. It may be 5 - 9 if I make the characters too good or they get too creative.
They don't have books to study at home so I'll be providing spell lists to them. If they are a wizard or such I'll hand them a list of spells and suggestions on basic prep and such.
I'm trying to avoid Extremes on the alignments and keep everyone not evil. So no Dread Necromancers, and if its a Cleric make sure to pick a neutral-ish god.
I'd prefer to keep it tier 2-3. I think that all characters in that area are good, have options and are easier to control.
Oh I don't want an oops I broke the encounter moment, yes I'll have to keep an eye on the Factotum I realize that.
No cheese, I don't want to have to explain how they got into Rainbow Servant level 2, thus far they are mostly base classes that may PrC but I'm okay with a mix build. Also I'd prefer to play more on the side of RAI though I'm cool with a little cheese normally.
28 pnt buy, Max HP first level, average for rest. You can argue this if you want but its what I'm used to doing.
Don't be obscure I'd rather the less books I have to show them the better. Preferably setting free. I'm okay if its cool, idea wise.


So what are you're ideas. Please give a basic idea and preferably a handbook.
I'm thinking Sorc with some tricks and some blast spells. I'm some what against Save or Die/Lose, though Save or Suck I'm totally fine with;
Or maybe a Gish but I can't think of one that is fun and consistent from 5-10.

Hopefully that organized enough for a good response. Feel free to ask questions.

[Medic!]

A rogue or warlock would probably fit in alright without a lot of hassle.

[grarrrg]

A rogue or warlock would probably fit in alright without a lot of hassle.

Rogue is less than ideal, they already have a Factotum.

I do agree with the Warlock though, in as much as they should have a "ranged" character (spells or bow doesn't matter).

[Medic!]

Yeah rogue may or may not be a good idea, with the party already leaning stoutly to the generalist side of life. The upside to having a broader range of more capable classes is that as first timers they won't be locked into "Man...all I can do is X, wish I could at least Y a little bit."

Warlock's one of my favorite classes, most of the fun of being a caster without half the complications. I secretly refer to it as a sorcerer with training wheels :D

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some kind of caster would probably fit in well. Bards aren't bad as a caster, but don't confuse them with a true 9th level spell caster.

Beguilers are a solid Tier 3 class who could offer a lot for the party, providing some battlefield control and utility.

Warlock, as has been said, would also not do too bad, however he would do better in battlefield control or status effect augmentation than attempting to to try for damage output.

Dragonfire Adept is another solid Tier 3 class with solid battlefield control options and rather fun to play.

If you're wanting some blasting, a Warmage... isn't the worst option, I suppose. It looks to be a fairly sub-optimized group anyways, so he should fit in.

[The-Mage-King]

Hm... 3rd party (VERY good/well balanced 3rd party, specifically) okay?


If so, Worldthough Medic (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic). If it's anything like DSP's new... What's it called... Vitalist? Anyway, a psionic PF base class that appears to be based on it, it'll do fine at healing/buffing (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic-powers).


This way, you have a beatstick, a skill monkey, a quasi-caster/buffer, and a healer/buffer. If said WtM picks up, say, Crystal Shard with the 3rd level feat, it can work as a bit of a blaster, too.

[Fax Celestis]

Dragonfire Adept is another solid Tier 3 class with solid battlefield control options and rather fun to play.

Agreed. Also has the best parts of the warlock with less emoness. And its an always-on kind of character. AND if you take the right invocation, you can identify things for free at will, which your partymates will love.

[Medic!]

The day my 1st warlock found an Artificer's Monocle (sp?) there was much rejoicing, and we saw that it was good!

[Vortling]

Agreed. Also has the best parts of the warlock with less emoness. And its an always-on kind of character. AND if you take the right invocation, you can identify things for free at will, which your partymates will love.

It also qualifies nicely for the draconic aura feat (same book as DFA) to pick up a few dragon shaman auras for some always on support options.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It also qualifies nicely for the draconic aura feat (same book as DFA) to pick up a few dragon shaman auras for some always on support options.

To get more than a +1 from it still requires blowing a feat on Dragontouched, not simply being Dragonblooded.

[AmberVael]

To get more than a +1 from it still requires blowing a feat on Dragontouched, not simply being Dragonblooded.

Er... the Draconic Aura feat only requires the dragonblooded subtype to scale.

And if you meant to say the opposite of what you said, Dragontouched grants the dragonblooded subtype.

[Suddo]

Dragon Fire Adept looks awesome, and I might do it the 2 problems.
1) I've never messed with one. This can probably be solved easily.
B) I'm running the Red Hand of Doom Campaign where the main enemy is a half dragon hobgoblin. So that might be weird though I guess he's CE and you could be part of the Good Dragons might be a good idea.

I do agree Warlock would be good. I was thinking of having a Sorc with almost nothing but blaster spells. But with the limited spell pool at the start, and whether or not the Bard could keep up the utility spells I started to question the idea.

Beguiler looks cool but I've never messed with it. I'll read it and Dragonfire Adept and get back to you.

[The-Mage-King]

...Go with the Medic. Seriously. RHoD is a time sensitive campaign, and having a healer on hand to deal with damage of all types is important. If they can be a decent in-combat medic and spread around heals for everyone, the party'll last a lot longer. Dropping an Animal Affinity for Con, then one for Int helps too, given the composition. I mean, what Warblade or Factotum doesn't want +4 Int, and who wouldn't want +4 Con in a fight? At 8th level, you can give the most of the party those boosts for a bit of PP, which would help in the endgame fights.

[zlefin]

i agree that a heavy caster of some sort is best.
With so many skill heavy chars; adding a fourth flexible hybridy char is unlikely to work as someone is already good at each skill.
One of the splatbook casters the others are recommending would be the most balanced addition to the party; though a sorceror with a suitable spelllist would do the job; but sorc will overlap alot with what a bard could do. So splatbook caster is better.
I think the bard can provide enough healing for the party; as it sounds like they won't be fighting too much, his spells/day should be enough if he uses half for healing as needed.
Adding some sort of range is best; so ranged blaster, (or ranged archer, but that's not as good probably).

edit: several posts appeared because I was typing this post during ads of a show; so this response didn't accuont for the above hour's worth of posts.

[Suddo]

...Go with the Medic. Seriously. RHoD is a time sensitive campaign, and having a healer on hand to deal with damage of all types is important. If they can be a decent in-combat medic and spread around heals for everyone, the party'll last a lot longer. Dropping an Animal Affinity for Con, then one for Int helps too, given the comp. .
Hmmm... If I do this my player who's going to play the bard plays the Medic and then I'm out the bard. Same question different group. And yes I do agree. I wasn't certain how well the bard could do as the party healer.

Edit: Hmmm... Is medic in a book. Or is it only online. I've never messed with psionics or seen them played will that be an issue?

Edit: Edit: Yeah the bard doesn't look like a good healer now that I look more into it. Damn them for being good at only somethings. I'd be willing to give him a wand of healing, cure light/minor or whatever. He also wanted to be able to RP in the game and that just screamed bard to me.

[The-Mage-King]

Hmmm... If I do this my player who's going to play the bard plays the Medic and then I'm out the bard. Same question different group. And yes I do agree. I wasn't certain how well the bard could do as the party healer.

Nono. Make Bard Dragonfire Inspiration. Make Medic the 4th wheel, with the third level feat being Expanded Knowledge (Crystal Shard) or Exp. Know. (Mind Thrust). That gives you a source of blasting, the melee dudes doing +Xd6 elemental damage, and...Well, a decent amount of healing and utility. Give Bard UMD and face skills, and you've got a (fairly) balanced party. Not much blasting or teleporting, but, hey, you can give them scrolls, which the bard'd use!

[Suddo]

Nono. Make Bard Dragonfire Inspiration. Make Medic the 4th wheel, with the third level feat being Expanded Knowledge (Crystal Shard) or Exp. Know. (Mind Thrust). That gives you a source of blasting, the melee dudes doing +Xd6 elemental damage, and...Well, a decent amount of healing and utility. Give Bard UMD and face skills, and you've got a (fairly) balanced party. Not much blasting or teleporting, but, hey, you can give them scrolls, which the bard'd use!

Damn one of the my friends who was going to play the bard wanted to be healer / support with RP I guess he can RP a psionic. But still doesn't that description just scream Bard.

Edit: And the Medic almost falls under that obscure principle even if it is balanced.

[zlefin]

i'm not familiar with the campaign, so I cant adjust for that fully. How many spells will the bard have to use for non-healing purposes?
bard would heal around 60/day at level 5, if all his spells went to healing, otherwise more like 30/day;
using heal skill to improve health from sleeping would let everyone recover 10/day assuming the campaign allows for safe overnight sleeping. that does sound rather thin.
reedit - screwed up my math horribly on bard healing.

[The-Mage-King]

Edit: Hmmm... Is medic in a book. Or is it only online. I've never messed with psionics or seen them played will that be an issue?

The Worldthought Medic is a bit of 3rd party material, from the Dreamscarred Press book...

...I can't seem to recall the name of the physical book. But here's a link to the pdf (http://paizo.com/products/btpy825b?Untapped-Classes-Worldthought-Medic) in Paizo's store.


Edit: Edit: Yeah the bard doesn't look like a good healer now that I look more into it. Damn them for being good at only somethings. I'd be willing to give him a wand of healing, cure light/minor or whatever. He also wanted to be able to RP in the game and that just screamed bard to me.

I'd suggest a wand of Lesser Vigor- better for topping off out of combat, while the medic covers inside it.


Damn one of the my friends who was going to play the bard wanted to be healer / support with RP I guess he can RP a psionic. But still doesn't that description just scream Bard.

Hey, fluff is mutable. I'd be running a medic like that as a snarky healer, who thinks it's always lupis is always expecting new and interesting injuries to fix, but others would do differently, and the fluff would have you do so even more differently.




Anyway, yeah. I'd suggest talking to Psyren about the psionics rules and the Worldthought Medic to be sure you're clear on 'em- he IS our resident Psionics expert, after all.

[lord pringle]

Hey, fluff is mutable. I'd be running a medic like that as a snarky healer, who thinks it's always lupis is always expecting new and interesting injuries to fix.
"You stash your drugs in a Lupus textbook?" "It's never Lupus."

[Suddo]

Anyway, yeah. I'd suggest talking to Psyren about the psionics rules and the Worldthought Medic to be sure you're clear on 'em- he IS our resident Psionics expert, after all.

So 2 questions:
1) So Bard should still be part of the party as face and buffy. But not healer. Dragonwrought is what you suggest. I know I've seen it where.
2) Can I just message this Psyren fellow directly on this forums? Would he mind.

[The-Mage-King]

So 2 questions:
1) So Bard should still be part of the party as face and buffy. But not healer. Dragonwrought is what you suggest. I know I've seen it where.
2) Can I just message this Psyren fellow directly on this forums? Would he mind.

1) Not dragonwrought- that's for Kobolds. What I'm suggesting is the feat Dragonfire Inspiration, in Dragon Magic. Basically, it allows a bard to turn their Inspire Courage bonus into D6s of elemental damage. In this case, I'd suggest making the race be Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic), so the bard would have a bonus feat and the dragonblooded subtype (needed for DfI), and just let the player decide if they'd prefer to add Fire damage or Cold damage. Read the feat and the race, and you'll see my reason for the suggestion.




2) Yep. His profile is right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?find=lastposter&t=227030). He probably won't mind. I'm acutally kinda suprised he hasn't posted in this thread yet, given that I mentioned DSP's stuff...

[Suddo]

I reconized his pic, lol I love how that works. Yeah I think this will totally work out. I'll make the Bard aligned with a good dragon which will tie into the story.

Thanks everyone feel free to keep posting I might make a couple more posts just to not make more threads.

[The-Mage-King]

I reconized his pic, lol I love how that works. Yeah I think this will totally work out. I'll make the Bard aligned with a good dragon which will tie into the story.

By pure coincedince, Silverbrow Humans are the draconic equivilant of planetouched- descended from a dragon, more specifically, a silver dragon.

:smalltongue:

[Suddo]

So should the DragonBard be melee or ranged focused. I'm thinking ranged, but sense I have such a great group of mind I figured ask.

If ranged can the warblade handle a big combat scenario. Sense most of the party is more squishy and ranged.

[JackRackham]

There was an interesting class on the homebrew forums here a while back, a reworked Savant. I think it'd fit in well with this party. Balance-wise, it's around the same level as the Factotum, 6 skill-points/lvl, 6-7 lvl arcane and divine spells at 20, something like Bardic Lore. It might be the perfect thing for the guy who was looking at Bard and Healer. I know Homebrew can be wonky, but it looked pretty good and my (generally persnickity and anti-homebrew) friend thought pretty highly of it, as well.

EDIT: the thread was called something like Savant remake (PEACH). Also, I know, homebrew might not be the best for newbies. And, if this sounds higher-power than factotum, remember action economy and the factotum's cunning surge. As an afterthought, if you have a factotum in the party, he should definitely take divine inspiration at least twice. It's an online feat, put out by WOTC.

[Suddo]

As an afterthought, if you have a factotum in the party, he should definitely take divine inspiration at least twice. It's an online feat, put out by WOTC.
Oh trust me never leave home without it.

[JackRackham]

Oh trust me never leave home without it.
I figured as much, but one never knows. As to the Savant remake, definitely check it out. Even if you don't use it in this campaign, it's a very playable class with some cool fluff and RP value

.http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218570&highlight=savant+remake

[Socratov]

ehm, the bard can be a great healer (at least compared to everyone but a cleric), just take healing hymn (Complete Champion) and cast those CLW and onwards for heals + number of perform rakns (which adds to any heal at lvl 5 a whopping +8 hp ). just takes 1 feat, the rest can ofcourse be spent on DFI and whatnot.

[Psyren]

2) Can I just message this Psyren fellow directly on this forums? Would he mind.

You rang?

Worldthought Medic... well, to be honest, I'm not sure it's the best choice here. For one, you appear to be fairly new to psionics, and they aren't the simplest class to get your feet wet in the system. For two, they are extremely lacking on offense, which your party will need (particularly battlefield control.) For three, they play much better with other psionic characters due to how their network works.

If you really do want to give psionics a try, the "Rules Summary" link in my sig should help you understand it. But even then, I would recommend your 4th-player be a psion rather than a WM. You need battlefield control/summons more than you need healing (though Psions can be decent at that too.) Or have the 4th-player be a sorcerer.

Summons are especially useful here because (a) they give you more meat shields, and flanking buddies for the Warblade and Factotum to use, and (b) they are expendable frontliners, which your Warblade is not.

And as others have mentioned, your bard can be a fine healer on his own.

[DrDeth]

I wouldn’t try psionics for newbies, nor would I do Summoning or even ToB. Mind you, I love ToB and if you have the maneuvers written out on little cards, and don’t try a Crusader, it can be OK.

[Psyren]

Psionic Summoning is easy as pie though. It's one creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm), for whom you just pick options. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) No tons of splats to pore over.

[Draz74]

Even before I read the comments on the thread, my immediate reaction was the same as the advice I'm giving you: Psion. Seriously, it's a great fit for the power level of your party, and an excellent foil to the abilities the three of them already have. Full caster, ranged blasting ability, good utility magic.

My one concern is that such a party will be poor at non-Hit Point condition removal. This makes me want to recommend that the Psion be an Egoist with the True Healer ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a), but even then, a Psion won't get really good at condition removal until Level 11. (And then at Level 12, the Bard gets a lot better at it anyway. :smallsigh:) So I guess your Psion is free to pick whatever Discipline appeals to him. Shaper is a good catch-all.

Oh well. Make sure the Warblade takes Iron Heart Surge, and make sure the Factotum picks up the Caduceus Bracers item (2000 gp, Magic Item Compendium). Those will both increase the team's condition removal abilities significantly.


...Go with the Medic. Seriously. RHoD is a time sensitive campaign, and having a healer on hand to deal with damage of all types is important.
This is a good suggestion, but yeah, psionics can do the medic thing without third-party imports. And Psion is just a great class in general.


Dropping an Animal Affinity for Con, then one for Int helps too, given the composition. I mean, what Warblade or Factotum doesn't want +4 Int, and who wouldn't want +4 Con in a fight?
Animal Affinity is a personal-range power. So this won't work. (Or does the Medic have an ability to share personal-range powers? I looked at it a long time ago, and I don't remember it well.)


ehm, the bard can be a great healer (at least compared to everyone but a cleric), just take healing hymn (Complete Champion) and cast those CLW and onwards for heals + number of perform rakns (which adds to any heal at lvl 5 a whopping +8 hp ). just takes 1 feat, the rest can ofcourse be spent on DFI and whatnot.
Healing Hymn is indeed a FANTASTIC suggestion for a healing-inclined Bard. But it's an ACF, not a feat. So it's actually even better than Socratov was advertising.


You need battlefield control/summons more than you need healing (though Psions can be decent at that too.)
Nice to have the "expert" agree with me. :smallsmile:


I wouldn’t try psionics for newbies, nor would I do Summoning or even ToB. Mind you, I love ToB and if you have the maneuvers written out on little cards, and don’t try a Crusader, it can be OK.
Meh ... totally disagree. For someone who's not already used to either system, psionics is a good deal more intuitive to learn than Vancian spellcasting.

[Fax Celestis]

Animal Affinity is a personal-range power. So this won't work. (Or does the Medic have an ability to share personal-range powers? I looked at it a long time ago, and I don't remember it well.)

Think it does. Even still, you could take Scribe Tattoo and pass tattoos of animal affinity around. Sure, it'll eat a little XP, but tattoos of animal affinity are better than potions of wombat's buff in nearly every fashion.

[Psyren]

Animal Affinity is a personal-range power. So this won't work. (Or does the Medic have an ability to share personal-range powers? I looked at it a long time ago, and I don't remember it well.)

Worldthought Medics cannot share Animal Affinity, but Vitalists can. One more reason to go with the new guy.

[DrDeth]

But then you have to know all the rules for psionics, which are quite different than magic, etc. Look, I know a loot of folks love psionics, and it certainly has it places, but it’s not for newbies. Maybe the systems is simpler to comprehend than Vancian, but face it, the DM is not going to drop Vancian magic and sub psionics.

[Psyren]

But then you have to know all the rules for psionics, which are quite different than magic, etc. Look, I know a loot of folks love psionics, and it certainly has it places, but it’s not for newbies. Maybe the systems is simpler to comprehend than Vancian, but face it, the DM is not going to drop Vancian magic and sub psionics.

He IS the DM, and he's interested. So we may as well cultivate that, even if he ultimately decides not to go with it this time around.

I already directed him to Peregrine's post in my sig, that should cover most of the salient points.

[Draz74]

But then you have to know all the rules for psionics, which are quite different than magic, etc.
Yeah, but they're really not that hard to learn. And an individual PC will only have to learn one of the two, not both. Only the DM would have to know both, and it seems like he's willing.


Look, I know a loot of folks love psionics, and it certainly has it places, but it’s not for newbies.
Not for newbies that already know the Vancian system, maybe. But for true newbies who could learn either one? Absolutely.


but face it, the DM is not going to drop Vancian magic and sub psionics.

I'll agree with that, only because there's already a Bard in the party. Heck, even then, the DM could use the Bard variant from Ernir's Translation of Standard Magic Flavor to Psionics Mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002), and the Bard and the Psion would both be operating under the (elegant) psionics rules.

[The-Mage-King]

This is a good suggestion, but yeah, psionics can do the medic thing without third-party imports. And Psion is just a great class in general.

Eh. Worldthought medic seemed like the right power level, and the right flavor.


Animal Affinity is a personal-range power. So this won't work. (Or does the Medic have an ability to share personal-range powers? I looked at it a long time ago, and I don't remember it well.)

Their 8th level ability allows it, actually. Drop an Extended/Augmented Animal Affinty on self, then Echo it to the other party members for 8 pp, and realize that you spent 16 pp to give the party +4 Con for 16 minutes/+4 Int and Con for 8 minutes.

[Suddo]

So I looked over that post you, Psyren, linked. I think I get it. I've never messed with psionics but they look alright. I do agree that a full caster with battle-field control / debuffing / dispelling might be great sense the bard might have a hard time filling that, especially at this level, but I want 1 character to be the support/heal character because when I asked my players, one of them said that specifically as his choice. Which is why I lean toward the Medic over straight psionic.
I've messed around with ToB before so I'm pretty familiar with it. I haven't poured over all the abilities and such but sense I'm building the character any abilities I pour over I'll know when DMing. Plus I hate the power difference of Fighter/Barb and what the rest of the party would be. I've often been the fighter who has nothing to do or the same thing to do and find it boring.
So my main question is right now:
1) What are the Medic's powers, the list isn't linked from its page I'll poke around some more.
2) Will the character playing the medic have stuff to do. This question is because I see that they only have 3 powers by 5th level and they don't have that many PP, or does he also get those bonus PP that I see in my Psionic's Handbook.
3) I guess the question has evolved. What 2 characters should complement the Warblade and Factotum. Right now I'm still leaning towards Medic/Bard. But I agree a full caster would be nice. If there's some way within 5 - 10 that the bard can be more effective at a battlefield controller then please say it but I'm not certain if there is anything.

[Socratov]

if the bard can get the healing hymn ACF (thanks for reminding Draz :smallamused:) I'd really advise on having the 4th character be a warlock, he can do some nifty battlefield control, and has an easy way of handling arcane blasting and is pretty well balanced in this party (yes it does casting, but not to a degree where it will disrupt the balance in the party) while maintaining an easy entry introduction into the game.

[The-Mage-King]

So my main question is right now:
1) What are the Medic's powers, the list isn't linked from its page I'll poke around some more.

The Medic's powers are right here (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic-powers). Most of those are from the EPH, but some are new.



2) Will the character playing the medic have stuff to do. This question is because I see that they only have 3 powers by 5th level and they don't have that many PP, or does he also get those bonus PP that I see in my Psionic's Handbook.

At 5th level, the medic 'll have 25 pp to spend on their 3 1st and/or 2nd level powers. They'll also get bonus PP for having a high Wisdom score.


3) I guess the question has evolved. What 2 characters should complement the Warblade and Factotum. Right now I'm still leaning towards Medic/Bard. But I agree a full caster would be nice. If there's some way within 5 - 10 that the bard can be more effective at a battlefield controller then please say it but I'm not certain if there is anything.

Well, in addition to my original suggestion, Dragonfire Adept and Bard would work, but most healers aren't exactly in the same power range as Factotum and Warblade. Maybe if you took the Healer from Mini's Handbook and let it be a spontaneous caster like the Warmage instead of a prepared one, but... Still isn't that good.

[DrDeth]

Well, you see, so far you’re doing a great job by balancing the party, both PC’s are tier 3. Last thing you want is a tier 1. Beguiler is great, but Factotum overlaps too much. That leaves: Dragonfire Adept (better than warlock in this case), Dread necromancer (if party flavor allows), Spirit Shaman (low Tier 2?), and perhaps a Dragon Shaman (but not with a Dragonfire adept). Also Duskblade could work.

[Draz74]

3) I guess the question has evolved. What 2 characters should complement the Warblade and Factotum. Right now I'm still leaning towards Medic/Bard. But I agree a full caster would be nice. If there's some way within 5 - 10 that the bard can be more effective at a battlefield controller then please say it but I'm not certain if there is anything.

I vote you stick with the Bard as the healer/support character. You might have to put some scrolls* in his treasure to make him able to do everything, but with Healing Hymn, he'll be plenty good at HP healing. And he's generally good at social skills, magic skills (UMD!), illusions and enchantments, and damage-buffing, and whatever else.

Then, I'd go non-healer Psion for the fourth character (although Warlock is a good option too, and even easier to learn).

[Psyren]

2) Will the character playing the medic have stuff to do. This question is because I see that they only have 3 powers by 5th level and they don't have that many PP, or does he also get those bonus PP that I see in my Psionic's Handbook.

This is one reason why I said WtM is complicated; it has a nonstandard "powers known" mechanic, which is closer to prepared casting than anything you'll usually find in psionics.

Don't let the table fool you - it shows 3 PK at 5, but in actuality they know their entire list. They get to rotate those 3 powers every morning after regaining their PP, choosing from the WtM list linked above.

The Vitalist, being its spiritual successor, has the same mechanic.

[Suddo]

Damn party balance.

So right now I'm looking at:
Bard (healer/support), Psionic (using BF control and such): I'll have to take a good amount of time to learn the Psionic. Though he is only 1 tier higher and I can mold him to not be completely OP.
Bard (probably Dragon with Tricks/BF Control) & Medic: Don't know how good the medic is and will have to learn that.

The other good classes I've seen are:
Dragonfire Adept: I don't have any experience with it. If it can BF control or not is the main question sense I doubt it can heal / support.
Warlock: So warlock I've looked at some and think it can BF control but I've never driven one or seen one so its all theory. The warlock does fill a nice area with the lack of range in the party which could be helpful.

Maybe the fact that one of my players wants to be a support/heal character is messing with the power dynamic too much. I could maybe make him a psionic but still.

@DrDeth: Psionics are tier 2. Unless your saying something else suggested is tier 1.

Edit: Saw Psyren's post I didn't read the part about them prepping spells. That might actually be okay. Are they still bound by a discipline.

[Psyren]

Edit: Saw psy's post I didn't read the part about them prepping spells. That might actually be okay. Are they still bound by a discipline.

Nope! What you see on their list is known to all WtMs; there is no discipline or other specialization to worry about.

As a Psion, you can spot discipline-specific powers because instead of "Psion/Wilder X" they'll use the discipline name instead: "Egoist 5, Telepath 7, Kineticist 3" etc.

The Expanded Knowledge feat lets you learn any power you want, regardless of discipline or class list, up to one level below your maximum. If your player wants to stick with Medic, a great way for him/her to get an offensive option is to take the feat at level 3 and use it to learn a scalable attack power. My personal choice is Astral Construct, but a straightforward blasting spell like Energy Ray works too.

Astral Construct is a very good choice because it's damage, utility and battlefield control rolled into one. Even better, Medics can add them to their Network, because they have a Wisdom score.

[Suddo]

Nope! What you see on their list is known to all WtMs; there is no discipline or other specialization to worry about.

As a Psion, you can spot discipline-specific powers because instead of "Psion/Wilder X" they'll use the discipline name instead: "Egoist 5, Telepath 7, Kineticist 3" etc.

The Expanded Knowledge feat lets you learn any power you want, regardless of discipline or class list, up to one level below your maximum. If your player wants to stick with Medic, a great way for him/her to get an offensive option is to take the feat at level 3 and use it to learn a scalable attack power. My personal choice is Astral Construct, but a straightforward blasting spell like Energy Ray works too.

Astral Construct is a very good choice because it's damage, utility and battlefield control rolled into one. Even better, Medics can add them to their Network, because they have a Wisdom score.

I think that might seal me into picking the Medic. When I show the guy who's going to play him, mind you he doesn't understand all the rules, he seemed to like it. I definitly think getting the construct would make it so he never has nothing to do.

So now do I go with Bard who has almost nothing but Battle-Field Control spells and has Dragonfire Inspiration or is there a better option.

[DrDeth]

The other good classes I've seen are:
Dragonfire Adept: I don't have any experience with it. If it can BF control or not is the main question sense I doubt it can heal / support.
Warlock: So warlock I've looked at some and think it can BF control but I've never driven one or seen one so its all theory. The warlock does fill a nice area with the lack of range in the party which could be helpful.

Maybe the fact that one of my players wants to be a support/heal character is messing with the power dynamic too much. I could maybe make him a psionic but still.

@DrDeth: Psionics are tier 2. Unless your saying something else suggested is tier 1.

.

Well, high tier 2, and maybe tier 1, depending. So for a support character, then we still have Dragon Shaman or Spirit Shaman. Dragonfire adept is a var of warlock but with some Dragon Shaman powers and a lot of Dragonbreath. It does very nice for area effect damage. It does have some powers that can support. Warlock is better for range, built right.

[Draz74]

Dragonfire Adept: I don't have any experience with it. If it can BF control or not is the main question sense I doubt it can heal / support.
Dragonfire Adept is amazing at battlefield control (as long as it takes the feat Entangling Exhalation), without being overpowered. You're right, it has very little in the way of healing/support abilities.

On the other hand, Dragonfire Adept isn't very long-range oriented.


Warlock: So warlock I've looked at some and think it can BF control but I've never driven one or seen one so its all theory. The warlock does fill a nice area with the lack of range in the party which could be helpful.

Warlocks are great at battlefield control at higher levels, but at Red Hand of Doom levels they're pretty weak at it. Not completely helpless, but pretty weak.


Well, high tier 2, and maybe tier 1, depending.

Normal Psions are indeed pretty high in Tier 2, but if you just nerf or ban a few of their more infamous powers (like abuses of Synchronicity and Affinity Field), they quickly become high Tier 3 instead.

The only way they could possibly be Tier 1 is with the Erudite variant, which is usually talked about as if it's a separate class entirely (even though it's technically a variant Psion). And even an Erudite is only Tier 1 if it is played with a LOT of system mastery, or uses the super-overpowered "Spell-To-Power" ACF.

[Socratov]

the thing is, the bard is actually adept at creating illusions and trageting willsaves(not to mention Tasha's hideous laughter). But what the party si lacking is CC targeting fortsaves. for that the Warlock has the great sickening blast. Just let him take ability focus and a bucketload of +cha items. If the warlock leves, let him take beshadowed blast (yeah, blind that!). If the party will encounter more willsave targets (animals and martial oriented humanoids), charm and voice of maddness are great to pick up. This party would actually be a party where a warlock will fit in great. Not only for the party, but for you as the DM too. for a first time it is not advised to have too many systems (including systems you are not really familliar with), and handing the players too much options. Warlock covers that nicely: not too many options, but the options the warlock has are great and with a little creativity are rather great to use. the bard 'suffers' the same 'condition'. The ones you really want to keep a close eye on are the warblade and the factotum. the warblade can burst a lot of damage, and the factotum can do just about everything, if only the player uses his imagination to the fullest.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dragonfire Adept is amazing at battlefield control (as long as it takes the feat Entangling Exhalation), without being overpowered. You're right, it has very little in the way of healing/support abilities.UMD as a class skill, so wands and such, but yea... you're right.


On the other hand, Dragonfire Adept isn't very long-range oriented.Doesn't really need to be for a party like that. You can get within breath-weapon range fairly easily, specially if the Bard decides to focus on things like Invisibility and Silence for the Warblade.


Warlocks are great at battlefield control at higher levels, but at Red Hand of Doom levels they're pretty weak at it. Not completely helpless, but pretty weak.Beshadowed Blast is a Lesser invocation. Fort save or Blind. Blind is a VERY bad condition to have when you're near a Factotum who can nova precision-based damage based on opponent being denied dex bonus to AC...

Summon Swarm is almost nastier, although the DC on the save is a lot worse. But it's an area-effect no-save-no-sr guaranteed damage plus fort save or Nauseated. And you get to move the area around each turn. And it works best... gee... right about half of the RHoD campaign. At least.

Charm as an at-will SLA will trivialize parts of the campaign as well.

Granted, you'll probably never see the best aspects of a Warlock... Chilling Tentacles, Hindering Blast, and Nauseating Blast... but Nauseating foes out of the box and adding an unlimited-use blind to the mix, particularly when comboed with Eldritch Chain for multi-target... is certainly nothing to sneeze at.