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Bhu
2011-12-28, 10:59 PM
So I'm researching magic in ancient Japan for the idea of making classes. On the religious side i have Onmyoji (shinto/buddhist occultists), Kannushi (shinto shrine maidens), Sou (Buddhist Monks), and Sohei/Yamabushi (warrior/monks).

Arcane casters are a lil trickier. The closest name I can find for black magic is Kuromajutsu, and Tsukai for witch (maho tsukai for female). I've also seen the name majyo for particularly evil mages or youba for hags. Wiki has some gibberish about witches employing fox or snake familiars which I havent seen anywhere else and cant find any evidence for.

Anyone with more knowledge or suggested reading material?

Tebryn
2011-12-28, 11:02 PM
Most magic in Japanese Myth has to do with the Gods. Kuromajutsu is literally...Black Magic. I'm afraid you won't find much in the way of "arcane" magic as the idea isn't something from the period magic was widely debated in Japanese culture. It has to do with spirits, ghosts and monsters. Even the Wu Jen which is the "eastern" themed D&D class for wizard is complete fiction invented on their part.

Terraoblivion
2011-12-28, 11:21 PM
In general, finding magic that doesn't involve gods, spirits or otherwise tying into religion is hard outside relatively modern fantasy literature. It's just kinda where magic and the supernatural came from for premodern people.

Bhu
2011-12-29, 12:08 AM
So assuming all magic is divinely inspired then, are there the japanese equivalent of witches?

erikun
2011-12-29, 12:14 AM
The problem you are running into is that asian magic is a considered spiritual and natural, and that spirituality is considered very magical. Gods are not creatures with large magical powers, but rather creatures that are very wise have access to spiritual magical powers and are thus considered gods.

Similarly, the idea of an arcane magic, where study instead of devotion grants you power, doesn't make too much sense. Spiritual devotion is study, and so the ones studying to gain greater arcane power are the same shintos and monks as are meditating for divine power. Note that Son Goku is considered a monk, and his great abilities are from his considerable spiritual power - and yes, that Goku counts too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goku). Ichigo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach_(manga)) is basically a highly spiritual person who can see and talk to ghosts, and that's where he gets his magical strength.

When you are looking at black magic, you aren't seeing arcane as much as evil divine spellcasting. An oni or yako (evil fox) isn't any different than a god or spiritual person, then are just "unbalanced" and using their abilities for evil. (Also, note that good = balance, evil = corrupt or compulsive or unbalanced in asian think.)


Ninjitsu, if you consider it a magic, and other martial arts might be the closest you are going to get to arcane spellcasting. While they are fundamentally powered by the same "method", most martial arts involve memorizing and repeating certain patterns for their techniques, which is probably what you are looking for in an arcane spellcaster.

[Edit]

So assuming all magic is divinely inspired then, are there the japanese equivalent of witches?
Evil miko, or anyone who has started using their power for evil. Think the ghost-possessed shrine maiden for a popular anime trope.

Bhu
2011-12-29, 12:37 AM
So are the names im coming across seeing actual use or are tehy just modern terms for archetypes?

erikun
2011-12-29, 12:59 AM
Which names?

Onmyōji come from Onmyōdō (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onmy%C5%8Dd%C5%8D), and is basically a Taoist diviner. They might work as arcane casters, assuming you mean study and practice as arcane spellcasting.

Kannushi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kannushi) are shrine-keepers, ranging from oracles to basic groundskeepers.

Sōhei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sohei) are warrior-monks, or something like samurai that were attached to a temple or monestary. Yamabushi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamabushi) are something like the Karate Kid-style monk-on-the-mountain, or generally people who isolate themselves to a remote location and practice what they like.

I'm not locating the word "Sou" as having any particular meaning. Sorry, I can do research, but I'm not familiar with the language(s).

'Kuromajutsu' could mean 'black magic'... sorta. Kuro is black and jutsu is art (as in jujitsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu)), and I'm not quite familiar with what the -ma- connector word means. It would basically mean "black arts" or "dark practices", and again, highlights how 'black magic' isn't that different than just acting evily.

I'm not quite sure what Tsukai means. Yume Tsukai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yume_Tsukai) literally means "Dream Users", but I'm not familiar enough with the language to catch which english word refers to which japanese one. I think that tsukai may just mean "users", as Maho Tsukai means, as best as I can tell, blood-magic users. I'm not finding much of anything for majyo or youba.


Are you looking for accurate japanese/chinese/korean names and practices for such characters, or do you just want a bunch of "holy" and "magical" and "evil" names to attach to classes?

Bhu
2011-12-29, 02:04 AM
I'm looking for accuracy. I wanted to design caster classes for ancient japan that were more accurate than teh wu jen

Pokonic
2011-12-29, 02:13 AM
That would not be that hard, considering that class is built on poppycock.

As a suggestion, remember that there magic revolved around spirits and gods, and how not to make them PO'ed.

Bhu
2011-12-29, 02:44 AM
The Sou was the only term i could find for a buddhist clergyman

Maho tsukai is also written mahoutsukai and is sposed to be generic term for witch

majyo is supposed to be another term for witch, particularly black magic users or demon worshippers

youba are forest/mountain hags, also supposedly sometimes called onibaba after the famous monster

Ashtagon
2011-12-29, 03:05 AM
The Sou was the only term i could find for a buddhist clergyman

Maho tsukai is also written mahoutsukai and is sposed to be generic term for witch

majyo is supposed to be another term for witch, particularly black magic users or demon worshippers

youba are forest/mountain hags, also supposedly sometimes called onibaba after the famous monster

maho tsukai is gender neutral, so coudl equally refer to a man or woman. There is in fact a class in 3e Oriental Adventures by that name.

Cerlis
2011-12-29, 03:24 AM
yea modern ideas of magic where exagerations or misinterpretation of Wiccan and pagan rituals and curses....


And seeing as that stuff is religious.....hard not to find it.

What you'd want to do is to have any Fey, or demonic creatures from japanese mythos. or any spirits that focus on cunning or tricks, be your go-to arcane sources.

Daremonai
2011-12-29, 05:24 AM
'Kuromajutsu' could mean 'black magic'... sorta. Kuro is black and jutsu is art (as in jujitsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujutsu)), and I'm not quite familiar with what the -ma- connector word means.

I'm not quite sure what Tsukai means. Yume Tsukai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yume_Tsukai) literally means "Dream Users", but I'm not familiar enough with the language to catch which english word refers to which japanese one. I think that tsukai may just mean "users", as Maho Tsukai means, as best as I can tell, blood-magic users. I'm not finding much of anything for majyo or youba.

Just to clarify a few points, since I actually do speak Japanese semi-fluently (bear in mind that a LOT of nuance is lost in translation):

Kuromajutsu (黒魔術) is as direct a translation of "black magic" as you're ever likely to get. The "ma" portion is not a connector - the kanji refers to spirits/demons, so majutsu is really "demon arts/techniques". The alternative is mahou (魔法), which I would translate as "way of the demon/spirit). The "black" portion is, as far as I can tell, a later addition based on the western ideas of a black/white magic duality.

Tsukai (使い) does mean "user" - it comes from "tsukau", the verb for "to use". Mahou tsukai just means "magic user", there's no connection to blood magic specifically.

Finally, "Majyo". "Majo" (魔女) literally means "magical/spirit/demon woman" - y'know, witches. As far as I can tell, it's just a different romanisation of the same word.

Knaight
2011-12-29, 06:09 AM
When you are looking at black magic, you aren't seeing arcane as much as evil divine spellcasting. An oni or yako (evil fox) isn't any different than a god or spiritual person, then are just "unbalanced" and using their abilities for evil. (Also, note that good = balance, evil = corrupt or compulsive or unbalanced in asian think.)

Asian thought - even if you use "Asia" in such a way to exclude western Asia, northern Asia, and southeastern Asia - is not that unified, and never has been. At most, one could say that lots of the systems of thought (but not all of them) is about degrees of adherence to an ideal system, where the ideal system varies highly, and that there is a subset of that, particularly in more recent times (where more recent is 300-200 BCE forward or so) which has the good = balance, evil = corrupt or compulsive or unbalanced. Even then, it's a massive oversimplification, and getting into more detail than that is basically impossible without bringing several religions into the mix.

ZeroGear
2011-12-29, 04:03 PM
I'm not an expert with class building, I will admit, but why not just leave the classes as they are and just rename them?
It seems you are looking for flavor rather than mechanics, so why not just re-fluff the wizard (and it's subgroups) into what you need?
Oracles (diviners) and summoners (especially spirit summoners) can be found in many stories, and abjurers can easily fill the nitch of demon binders and banishers.
Rather than worry about historical stories (which include references, but tend to group many terms together the way sorcerer and wizard are synonymous in western culture) name the classes as to what they do. There is more than one story referring to individuals who have studied ancient scriptures to perform astounding feats (almost every demon-banishment ritual mentioned in stories requires chanting, ringing of bells, and inscribed runes on talismans).
There is no shame in giving an arcane class religious overtones, especially considering who held watch over almost every ancient scripture.

I am probably guilty of doing this as I have tried finding equivalents for my world (personally, I call wizards 'Scripted Mystics', but I use a hybrid culture and have yet to find a good name for the Asian bard).

Sorry I couldn't offer any advice name wise, but maybe this has helped you in a different way.

Yora
2011-12-29, 05:06 PM
Japanese folklore is no more structured and systematic than european one. Tell me what exactly a witch in europe would do. Or how an ogre looks? Or what a Kobold is.
the most consistent part is the name, everything else is pretty much different in every story. And japanese myth doesn't seem to be any different in that regard.

Thinker
2011-12-29, 05:44 PM
Japanese folklore is no more structured and systematic than european one. Tell me what exactly a witch in europe would do. Or how an ogre looks? Or what a Kobold is.
the most consistent part is the name, everything else is pretty much different in every story. And japanese myth doesn't seem to be any different in that regard.

A witch wears black and can be killed by flying houses or taking showers.
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1586/wickedwitch.th.jpg


An ogre is a creature that lives in a labyrinth and is terrorized by goblins, but is good friends with rocks.
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3598/ludom.th.jpg


Kobolds are tiny creatures that borrow objects from human beans.
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1079/borrowers.th.jpg


Meanwhile, all I know about Asian folklore is that Scorpion is a ninja, while Sub Zero is an assassin.
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7169/scorpionsubzero.th.png

Bhu
2011-12-29, 09:35 PM
Thanks Daremonai. I'll do a few quick rewrites and reduce Maho Tsukai to Maho or Mado.

Anyone heard stories about people befriending foxes/snakes in order to learn their powers? I'm told they exist but I'll be damned if I can find them.


ZeroGear: I decided as an experiment to rework one of the weaker current classes and the one that got voted up was Samurai. While reworking Samurai I got asked to introduce the new mechanic I'm working on to redo the Ninja and Sohei as well. And since Shugenja is another name for the Sohei/Yamabushi, and wu jen don't exist I was asked to add spellcasters as well.

Yora: Witch is a fairly generic term meaning 'practicioner of magic' (I think it's actually gender neutral despite most people thinking of it as feminine). The wiki article for witchcraft has this to say about Japan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft#Asia

I'm just wondering if it's accurate ;) Since I'm trying for a little more historical accuracy with my Samurai remake, I wanted to do so for the rest as well.

otakuryoga
2011-12-29, 11:57 PM
Meanwhile, all I know about Asian folklore is that Scorpion is a ninja

that is soooo wrong
what you meant to write was

Scorpion is the best clan

Ashtagon
2011-12-30, 01:32 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft#Asia

I'm just wondering if it's accurate ;) Since I'm trying for a little more historical accuracy with my Samurai remake, I wanted to do so for the rest as well.

I spent five years in Japan. Not once did i come across anyone Japanese telling me about witchcraft or folk tales that involved foxes or snakes as what appears to equate to a familiar. Found plenty of other fairy tyales though (although pretty much none of them focused on human-controlled magic). Maybe I just looked in the wrong place though.

To get what was described there, you can easily just call it a wizard (character class) with the appropriate familiar.

Bhu
2011-12-30, 02:27 AM
Ok so for Shugendo I keep the Yamabushi/Sohei

For Onymodo i have the Onmyoji

For Shintoism i have the Kannushi/Miko

Kaminchu for okinawan religion

and for Buddhism I have the Sou/Ama (monk/nun)

Maho appears to be a corrupt or evil version of any of the above, so it's a PrC

now I just need a name for a caster without formal training from a temple, such as people learning by non standard means not attached to a religion and somehow end up with vast power or becoming a yokai

and any competing religions that may have been around. I'm told Ainu shamanism is similar to ancient Shinto

Ashtagon
2011-12-30, 05:11 AM
I am suddenly reminded of something from the oots cmomic. Samurai is a job title, not a class. The same goes for all these Japanese spellcasters. I suspect all of them can be covered with one or another of the various casting classes (maybe with minimal tweaking) that have been published. I'm not sure tehre is adequate justification for making new classes just because they are oriental.

ZeroGear
2011-12-30, 12:53 PM
Stop me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Maho" mean "magic/magical". (I was guessing since I read a lot of Manga and that word is constantly used to describe "Maho Shojo" aka "Magical Girls".) Then again it could be the same pronunciation with different characters.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-30, 01:00 PM
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Avatar_Eclipse350_5259.jpg

Just use half the stuff from here except replace the western classical four elements with the five eastern ones.:smallwink:

Bhu
2011-12-30, 03:04 PM
Stop me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Maho" mean "magic/magical". (I was guessing since I read a lot of Manga and that word is constantly used to describe "Maho Shojo" aka "Magical Girls".) Then again it could be the same pronunciation with different characters.

Maho Tsukai seems to be generic in anime/manga for 'magic user', but as mentioned above Ma also means demon.

Gensh
2011-12-30, 04:34 PM
Maho Tsukai seems to be generic in anime/manga for 'magic user', but as mentioned above Ma also means demon.

The issue here is most translations to the English language were made by early Christian monks, who demonized all other religions. Even "demon" is a loan word from Greek/Latin, which originally meant something along the lines of an inspirational spirit or guardian angel. In order to get a proper feel for Japanese folklore, you need to drop all of your previous conceptions of demons. Rather, think of them as the creatures traditional Northern European folklore - elves will steal your babies, unicorns are violent beasts who drink blood, so on and so forth - but they aren't actually Evil, so much as hungry or mischievous. In most cases, the only words directly associated with Evil are jashin (evil god), akuma (devil), and maoh (demon lord).

Yora
2011-12-30, 05:30 PM
Stop me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Maho" mean "magic/magical". (I was guessing since I read a lot of Manga and that word is constantly used to describe "Maho Shojo" aka "Magical Girls".) Then again it could be the same pronunciation with different characters.

Japan is one of the primary cultures of the world, that is very good at bothering up their own folklore with foreign concepts and terms.
The japanese are the cultural Borg. "We will add your aesthetical and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to serivce us. Resistance is futile!" :smalltongue:

Yanagi
2011-12-31, 12:56 AM
Onmyodo is based on Yinyang and Wu Xing; both concepts have application far beyond religion, spirits, or spirituality--they were the natural philosophy of their day (functional with and without deities and other numinous forces). Furthermore, Onmyodo imported the Taoist "toolbox" of practical esoteric practices: alchemy, spells, et cetera. For anything resembling the culture and abilities of a D&D arcanist, Onmyodo would be your best choice. In addition to the Onmyoji, the other source of (Taoist) esoteric wisdom in Japanese myths would be the sennin, who is set far apart from society.

In the same vein, Shugendo is a tradition that interlevers Buddhism with Shinto, and then heaps on a bunch of secret revealed teachings that purportedly gave the yamabushi supernatural powers. The nature of these groups...each with its own gnosis...leaves them open to interpretation as arcane gishes, D&D Monks, or templar types.

It would also be worth your time to look up the distinctions within Shinto: you're focused on jinja-shinto (Shrine Shinto) as "divine magic": koshinto is shamanistic and "druidy" and minzoku shinto are more like a mashup divine, natural, and arcane magics.

Tsukimono suji is a term for a witch that controls kitsune.

...and that's all I got. The problem is that "arcane" abilities have never really been a full-time profession, but rather a skillset. Indeed, in most times and places a distinction between divine and arcane is never really made...even in European high ritual, which is where most of our magic tropes come from.

This Encyclopedia (http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/)includes a lot of terms and designations that might be useful, though they won't be "accurate" designations of arcane casting skills.

Psyren
2011-12-31, 11:50 AM
In most cases, the only words directly associated with Evil are jashin (evil god), akuma (devil), and maoh (demon lord).

What about Oni? I was under the impression that they were universally bad.

Gensh
2011-12-31, 12:39 PM
What about Oni? I was under the impression that they were universally bad.

Oni (ogres, for those who don't know) are frequently villainous, but before that, they are representative of physical power. Apart from simply destroying towns and the like, they can also be things like temple guardians if properly placated. You are correct in them being the poster child for malevolent spirits, though.

Yora
2011-12-31, 12:52 PM
There are also childrens stories that feature oni that are a bit like Shrek. Powerful and a bit scary, but good guys at heart. Though I don't know if they existed before the 20th century.

Bhu
2011-12-31, 02:38 PM
I think that's a modern thing. Older myths I've read about them are a lot like the Djinn: powerful and invisible supernatural entities responsible for all evil in the world. They didn't get teh ogrelike appearance until later when they became more anthropomorphized.

Story Time
2011-12-31, 03:05 PM
That...really is about as arcane as Japanese mythology can get. Mortal-creature-thing seeks out a powerful spirit-thing. Spirit-thing gives power to mortal-thing for [plot reason]. Mortal now has super powers. Mortal does really cool stuff with super powers to accomplish [plot goal].

Roll the film credits?

ZeroGear
2011-12-31, 03:21 PM
Oni (ogres, for those who don't know) are frequently villainous, but before that, they are representative of physical power. Apart from simply destroying towns and the like, they can also be things like temple guardians if properly placated. You are correct in them being the poster child for malevolent spirits, though.

Same with Kitsune (fox spirits) and Tenuki (Racoon-dogs) , which are often depicted as trixters, but are also portrayed as nature guardians, temple guards, child snatchers, or even spirits of good luck.
Granted that Japan has some very strange myths, such as the Kappa, who tought the secret to bone-knitting, but is commonly known to steal cucumbers and suck blood from a person's butt; and the Shirime, who looks like a naked person with no face, but has an eye in it's butt (no reason is given for that one's existence).

For the purposes of Arcane-Divine separation in game terms, I would say just renaming the Wizard to be the Taoist, making his spell book into a scripture from which he prepares his Talismans every day (similar to the Shugenja), and having his power derive from the power of Kanji (Japanese characters) would be sufficient.
Similarly, one could simply rename the Cleric into the Onmyodo or Priest, make his divine focus a set of prayer beads or a prayer bell, and change his turn/rebuke ability form undead to demons. Call me naive, but that should be sufficient, right?
Sorcerers are pretty standard in every part of the world, just change the 'dragon ancestor' part to being having a 'yokai' (spirit) ancestor of some type, such as a Kitsune, Yuki-Ona (snow woman), Tanuki, Lung Dragon, or something similar.
If you want something with a dark influence, reflavor the Warlock so he becomes the Maoh Maho (Demon Mage) and gains his powers from parts with evil spirits (Such as Akuma, Oni, and others).

It may seem like I'm oversimplifying things, but maybe that is all you need, or are you using a new system to run your game? Just remember:
D&D is a framework, sometimes altering the filler instead of creating a new structure is all that needed for the game to work.

P.s: could you post your Samurai, Ninja, and Sohei reworks please? I would be interested in your take on those classes. :smallsmile:

Morph Bark
2011-12-31, 03:25 PM
Most magic in Japanese Myth has to do with the Gods. Kuromajutsu is literally...Black Magic. I'm afraid you won't find much in the way of "arcane" magic as the idea isn't something from the period magic was widely debated in Japanese culture. It has to do with spirits, ghosts and monsters. Even the Wu Jen which is the "eastern" themed D&D class for wizard is complete fiction invented on their part.

Fun Fact: the Wu Jen isn't based off anything Japanese. The name is supposed to be Chinese.

(Note: I don't know if the name is actually proper Chinese/Cantonese/Mandarin or what it means.)

Yanagi
2011-12-31, 03:46 PM
I think that's a modern thing. Older myths I've read about them are a lot like the Djinn: powerful and invisible supernatural entities responsible for all evil in the world. They didn't get teh ogrelike appearance until later when they became more anthropomorphized.

Would that, by any chance, be material from the Konjaku Monogatarishu? Because I've been looking for a translation. Oni is the Otogizoushi (circa 1300) already have the ogre appearance, so the Konjaku (circa 700) is the next collection to dig through...I know there's oni stories in there, but not how they depict them.

Also...djinn as a supernatural race aren't evil in Arabic and Islamic myths. In pre-Islamic materials they're essentially geniuses in the Greek sense.
In the Quran and hadith they're explicitly described as the only other beings with free will, and thus capable of moral agency. You're thinking of the qareen, which are sometimes described as a type of djinn, but also exist as a distinct concept in pre-Islamic literature.


Fun Fact: the Wu Jen isn't based off anything Japanese. The name is supposed to be Chinese.

(Note: I don't know if the name is actually proper Chinese/Cantonese/Mandarin or what it means.)
It might be it's based off of the term Wu Xing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_xing), which is the natural philosophy of the Five Elements. It dosn't match any of the transcriptions, so it's not a direct gloss.

At a guess, they're taking the Wu of wuxing, and tying it to jin/jen meaning "person/man" to create a title.

Eldan
2011-12-31, 04:29 PM
I've actually looked around on Wiki a bit when I first saw the Wu Jen. Wu can mean Shaman. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_%28shaman%29). Later, apparently, Wu was also specifically a female sorcerer. There's also Wu Shen, a Sorcerer.

Yora
2011-12-31, 05:40 PM
For the purposes of Arcane-Divine separation in game terms, I would say just renaming the Wizard to be the Taoist, making his spell book into a scripture from which he prepares his Talismans every day (similar to the Shugenja), and having his power derive from the power of Kanji (Japanese characters) would be sufficient.
I never heard something about an inherent magical power of kanji, like in norse runes. Paper slips with kanji written on them are very common, but I don't think it's related to the kanji. I assume you could also do them in any other script. Though again, I am not exactly sure what gives them their power. But I think it was something like a petition to the kami to protect the building the paper is stuck to.

Gensh
2011-12-31, 05:53 PM
I never heard something about an inherent magical power of kanji, like in norse runes. Paper slips with kanji written on them are very common, but I don't think it's related to the kanji. I assume you could also do them in any other script. Though again, I am not exactly sure what gives them their power. But I think it was something like a petition to the kami to protect the building the paper is stuck to.

I'd do a poor job explaining it, so here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotodama)'s the wiki link.

Xuc Xac
2012-01-01, 12:04 AM
Fun Fact: the Wu Jen isn't based off anything Japanese. The name is supposed to be Chinese.

(Note: I don't know if the name is actually proper Chinese/Cantonese/Mandarin or what it means.)

Wu-jen is the Wade-Giles romanization of the Chinese 巫人, which is wú rén in pinyin. Back when Oriental Adventures was first written back in 1stEd days, Wade-Giles was still a popular romanization method, but pinyin is preferred now. 巫人 means "witchcraft person" or "pray/worship person" (before D&D invented the cleric class, there was no line between arcane and divine magic).

Bhu
2012-01-01, 05:22 AM
P.s: could you post your Samurai, Ninja, and Sohei reworks please? I would be interested in your take on those classes. :smallsmile:


http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=57.0

All of the stuff is posted here, it will be crossposted on gitp eventually maybe. The religious aspect of the caster classes may prevent that. Keep in mind the term 'work in progress' really does describe this. It's in the beginning stages really.


Would that, by any chance, be material from the Konjaku Monogatarishu? Because I've been looking for a translation. Oni is the Otogizoushi (circa 1300) already have the ogre appearance, so the Konjaku (circa 700) is the next collection to dig through...I know there's oni stories in there, but not how they depict them.

I'd have to look through books and the net again. I have tons of references im using for this and im not entirely sure all of them know what theyre talking about (hence my reasons for posting this thread). It's 5:30 am right now so that will have to come after sleep...

Daremonai
2012-01-01, 05:46 AM
If you want something with a dark influence, reflavor the Warlock so he becomes the Maoh Maho (Demon Mage)

I may not have been totally clear about this earlier, but "Maho/Mahou" does not mean "mage". Maho translates as "magic"(with Mahoutsukai as "magic-user"). There's no real way of translating "demon mage" that hasn't already been used somewhere as a synonym for wizard.

deuxhero
2012-01-01, 11:32 AM
I think that's a modern thing. Older myths I've read about them are a lot like the Djinn: powerful and invisible supernatural entities responsible for all evil in the world. They didn't get teh ogrelike appearance until later when they became more anthropomorphized.

Pretty sure Djinn are from Islamic lore and that their defining trait is the ability to choose good or evil.

Prime32
2012-01-01, 11:39 AM
Pretty sure Djinn are from Islamic lore and that their defining trait is the ability to choose good or evil.Yeah, pretty sure that djiini were described as being the same as humans mentally. There were djiini members of every human religion IIRC.

Bhu
2012-01-02, 06:32 AM
the djinn have free will and aren't compulsorily evil, but given that Oni can convert to Buddhism it suggests they're capable of being 'saved' as well. But in general they were mighty similar:

invisible or capable of assuming many guises, later anthropomorphosized

capable of free will but quickly got devolved into evil bogeymen

have vast supernatural power

Prime32
2012-01-02, 03:33 PM
but given that Oni can convert to Buddhism it suggests they're capable of being 'saved' as well.It seems anyone or anything can become good, even if they're made out of evil. The opposite is also true. In particular, all kami have both good and evil aspects.

Yora
2012-01-02, 08:29 PM
My experience from studying asian philosophy is that they generally don't have such clear cut distinctions between good and evil as in saints and demons.

The closest thing that sometimes shows up is acting according to, or opposed to the natural order of things. However, as is the case with Oni, it is the nature of monsters to kill and destroy. But there is no higher power that condems the actions of monsters brutal warlords and will punish them while rewarding those who acted according to its wishes.
You can condemn behavior as needlessly violent, poor manered, or disruptive to society, but it wouldn't be "wrong" by the laws of the cosmos.

Bhu
2012-01-03, 11:24 PM
I'm seeing the term Hanyo used for a half human half yokai child. Is this accurate or a modern invention for anime?

Yanagi
2012-01-05, 03:44 AM
I'm seeing the term Hanyo used for a half human half yokai child. Is this accurate or a modern invention for anime?

Never seen it used outside of Inuyasha.

Bhu
2012-01-05, 05:39 AM
Would Sankai be more appropriate?

Yanagi
2012-01-05, 06:12 AM
Would Sankai be more appropriate?

I'm not familiar with that term at all. Where's it from?

Anima
2012-01-05, 06:40 AM
I'm seeing the term Hanyo used for a half human half yokai child. Is this accurate or a modern invention for anime?
It's probably a combination of the character han (半) for half and the first character of youkai (妖) that can be translated as calamity. So, a hanyou(半妖) would be a half calamity.
Since the term is not in the dictionary, it's probably an invention of the author like Yanagi said.

Bhu
2012-01-05, 04:31 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankai

Anima
2012-01-05, 05:36 PM
No, I think those are something entirely different. There are more like pregnancy demons than half demons.

There is a rather elaborate page on the Japanese wikipedia about 半妖(Hanyou): http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%8A%E5%A6%96
You might get something out of it with a translator.

Lord Tyger
2012-01-05, 05:49 PM
yea modern ideas of magic where exagerations or misinterpretation of Wiccan and pagan rituals and curses....


And seeing as that stuff is religious.....hard not to find it.

What you'd want to do is to have any Fey, or demonic creatures from japanese mythos. or any spirits that focus on cunning or tricks, be your go-to arcane sources.

Well, let's be fair, Wicca wasn't a thing before modern times.

Bhu
2012-01-06, 07:07 PM
Okay so here's what I have so far for core classes/PrC's

Samurai (and variants)
Backup Archer
Kagemusha
Kobudoka
Metsuke
Ronin
Saburai
Sumai
Tegumi Wrestler
Teppo-Ka
Tsubanari
Tsujigiri
Yojimbo

Shihan
Kobudoka
Sumai
Tegumi Wrestler

Yakuza
Okapikki

Onmyoji (and variants)
Inugami-mochi
Mahou
Tengu-Worshiper

Sohei (and variants)
Mahou
Tengu-Worshiper

Ninja
none

Any
Bakemono
Youdomo



Obviously I need some non Samurai PrC ideas. Anyone got any thing they'd like to see?

deuxhero
2012-01-06, 11:19 PM
Something crafting related? "Master swordsmith" is a common archetype for the setting.

Xuc Xac
2012-01-06, 11:39 PM
Well, let's be fair, Wicca wasn't a thing before modern times.

Wicca is an ancient tradition that dates all the way back to the 1950s.

Salbazier
2012-01-07, 03:57 PM
Wicca is an ancient tradition that dates all the way back to the 1950s.

:smallconfused: IMO, 60 years tradition doesn't qualify as 'ancient'

Ancano
2012-01-07, 04:02 PM
Just use the oriental adventures setting.

Tebryn
2012-01-07, 08:03 PM
Fun Fact: the Wu Jen isn't based off anything Japanese. The name is supposed to be Chinese.

(Note: I don't know if the name is actually proper Chinese/Cantonese/Mandarin or what it means.)

I...know that? I don't know why you felt like pointing that out? :smallredface: I never said that it was based on anything Japanese. I said the contrary and merely referenced it as an "Easter" wizard.

Reynard
2012-01-07, 08:10 PM
:smallconfused: IMO, 60 years tradition doesn't qualify as 'ancient'

That's exactly his point. Wicca is a lot of stuff taken from vague historical records, and a hefty dose of things that sound mysterious and witch-like.

mint
2012-01-07, 08:19 PM
Maybe look into folktales and the magic in those.
Some cursory googling tells me that there's one tale, Jiraiya Gōketsu Monogatari. It appears to be quite old.
You may be familiar with the name, apparently the anime characters Jiraya, Tsunade and Orochimaru are copied from this tale.
They each had magic related to a specific animal in the story.
That might be something worth a look.

Yanagi
2012-01-07, 10:21 PM
Obviously I need some non Samurai PrC ideas. Anyone got any thing they'd like to see?

Question: if you're doing a Japan-analogue, what era is it?

For ninja: between the Sengoku Jidai and the Edo Period there's a bunch of stuff going on in espionage, all of which would fall under the milieu of the ninja.

During the Warring State you've got ninja as contractors doing espionage, assassination, et cetera. At its culmination, there's Hanzo Hattori acted as advisor to Toyotomi Hideyoshi andTokugawa Ieyasu. There's a lot of stories about Hanzo versus other master ninja, many of which include things like secret techniques and strategies...not so much magical as clever trump cards using traps, misdirection, and psychological warfare.

One way of creating PrCs would basically be to create "schools"...sorta like the Iga-ryu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iga-ry%C5%AB) and Koga-ryu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dga-ry%C5%AB)...or base them on specialization in a ninja skill, like use of illusions, poison, disguise, striking from concealment, black powder devices.

In the bakufu, the Shogunate basically dominated the han by tightly controlling their ability to accumulate military and economic power. The former part was very open: no new castles, firearms being sole province of a few makers in Sakai, allowances on number of retainers held, etc. The latter--which combined obligations that ate money (like maintained a household in Edo) and tight control on money making ventures, ie no new mines, no harvesting timber. Making sure no-one broke these rules required a network of investigators, spies, and informants.

The Oniwaban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oniwaban) were, depending on the account, either the gardeners in Shogun's palace or his the most cloistered team of spies he used. A sort of crossover of Samurai and Ninja role were the Yamametsuke, who were men with wilderness training who snuck around the countryside insuring none of the han were opening mines or cutting timber without the shogunate's knowledge.

For criminals:

Crossover between samurai and yakuza: the kabukimono (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabukimono)...who, if nothing else, are just so flamboyant and colorful that they're good flair, mechanics of not.

I'm not sure how you're doing distribution of magic in the setting...but if it's like the Tokugawa, then magic would be one of those assets that the bakufu would clamp down on. As a result, there'd be a niche for under-the-table magic-users--which would be very much in keeping with both the "protection racket" and "peddlar" components of the yakuza. There's also the great term bohachi...literally "without eight," as in "without the eight virtues of Buddha"...which, paired with the eminent supernatural of an RPG setting could be transformed into something spooky and warlock-y.

Finally, irezumi and magic just need to go together.

Bhu
2012-01-07, 11:55 PM
Question: if you're doing a Japan-analogue, what era is it?




From roughly 646 CE to Tokugawa in the 1800's.

Morph Bark
2012-01-08, 04:08 PM
I...know that? I don't know why you felt like pointing that out? :smallredface: I never said that it was based on anything Japanese. I said the contrary and merely referenced it as an "Easter" wizard.

I simply meant to add on to what you said with that, to make sure nobody would falsely presume all the orientally-themed classes are necessarily Japanese-based.

Bhu
2012-01-09, 11:54 PM
Initially I'm keeping all thse classes specifically Japanese. I'll move on to more of Asia if I can find enough research material.

Anyone have stuff they'd like to see for fantasy campaigns not based off myth? Samurai cats? Demon priests?

Ashtagon
2012-01-10, 03:19 AM
I...know that? I don't know why you felt like pointing that out? :smallredface: I never said that it was based on anything Japanese. I said the contrary and merely referenced it as an "Easter" wizard.

This would be the secret magic involving eggs, bunnies, and beagles, yes?

Bhu
2012-01-13, 12:25 AM
Thoughts on familiars for the Tsukai?? I need animals of magical significance and so far I have the following possibilities:

fox
cat
dog
snake
tanuki
spider
carp
catfish
shark
ants
ducks
badger
hare
monkey
crab
heron
chicken
otter
wolf
owl
crane
turtle
frog
dragonfly
mouse
snail
pheasant




Also for magic i seem to have missed nazoraeru

Yora
2012-01-17, 02:11 PM
I got a related question:

The D&D book Oriental Adventures introduced Taint, and I have seen it in a couple of japanese works, like Okami or Princess Mononoke. A corruption that kills the land and poisons all creatures that come into contact with it.
Does anyone know the original japanese concept and what it's called?

Grinner
2012-01-17, 03:55 PM
While I can't speak for it's verisimilitude, you might want to check out an anime series called Mushi-shi. Another series, Kekkaishi, might also be worth watching.

Mushi-shi: Episode 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdhR5XZNXbs)

Ashtagon
2012-01-17, 03:57 PM
I got a related question:

The D&D book Oriental Adventures introduced Taint, and I have seen it in a couple of japanese works, like Okami or Princess Mononoke. A corruption that kills the land and poisons all creatures that come into contact with it.
Does anyone know the original japanese concept and what it's called?

I'm not sure 3e OA taint was a Japanese myth concept. As far as I can tell, it was created for the Lo5R campaign setting, and doesn't have a basis in any specific real-world cultural mythology.

Yora
2012-01-17, 04:03 PM
It does have some similarity to the japanese creation myth. And I don't think Princess Mononoke and Okami, which are both based deeply on Japanese mythology both copied it from L5R.

Bhu
2012-01-17, 05:35 PM
Taint may be inspired by shinto. In the shinto religion, if a person dies while under the influence of strong emotions it causes their ghost to remain until you find out what it wants so you can get rid of it (lots of modern horror movies are based on the concept). This similarly extended to actual life where it was believed by some that indulging in strong emotions could warp you over time leading to you becoming a Bakemono ("changed thing"). Literally being too angry or lustful or whatever for too long a period of time could make you inhuman. It's the origin story for some yokai and oni. Also SHinto is obsessed with 'purity'. Certain things like death and disease were unpure, and those who had professions dealing with them were ritually unclean and discriminated against. They had to live in their own communities so as to not contaminate others. Criminals during a large period of time were exiled, because killing them could create vengeful ghosts, and allowing them to stay in the community could cause their contamination to spread leading to a town full of monsters.

Yora
2012-01-18, 06:38 AM
I've studied Shinto for the last years, but somehow didn't make that connection. But now that you mention it, a large scale manifestation of impurity seems quite obvious.
Though I suspect the thing about the dead returning as monster if they had impure thoughts and emotions probably draws heavily from buddhism.

Prime32
2012-01-18, 09:52 AM
Though I suspect the thing about the dead returning as monster if they had impure thoughts and emotions probably draws heavily from buddhism.I thought Shinto dealt with stuff within the world, and Buddhism with stuff outside it. Ghosts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuurei) are still in the world, so...

Yora
2012-01-18, 10:26 AM
Not really. The point of Buddhism is that everything comes back after death. Possibly in another world at first, but when they die there, they end up back in this world eventually, either as a human, an animal, or a ghost.

Beowulf DW
2012-01-18, 12:12 PM
I took a coarse on East Asian religions about a year ago, and I'd just like to say that the Shinto emphasis on purity was quite strong. I think that the descendents of "unclean" professions (buthchers and such, I think) are still discriminated to a degree in some areas of Japan.

Yora
2012-01-18, 12:20 PM
Funny thing is that they have one of the most powerful inoffical networks in Japan. Some Japanese told me that there's a number of self-made millionairs from the lowest class and they stick together much more than the old money families because of their shared hardships.

Yuki Akuma
2012-01-18, 12:42 PM
"Maho" mean "magic"? Psh, don't be ridiculous.

It obviously means "demon cannon".

Beowulf DW
2012-01-18, 12:48 PM
Oh, before I forget.

Bhu, if you're thinking of expanding into Chinese stuff, I highly recommend the book Dream of the Dragon Pool.

Yora
2012-01-18, 01:20 PM
"Maho" mean "magic"? Psh, don't be ridiculous.

It obviously means "demon cannon".

Funny thing about the Japanese language: Both might actually be true. :smallbiggrin:

NNescio
2012-01-18, 02:25 PM
Just to clarify a few points, since I actually do speak Japanese semi-fluently (bear in mind that a LOT of nuance is lost in translation):

Kuromajutsu (黒魔術) is as direct a translation of "black magic" as you're ever likely to get. The "ma" portion is not a connector - the kanji refers to spirits/demons, so majutsu is really "demon arts/techniques". The alternative is mahou (魔法), which I would translate as "way of the demon/spirit). The "black" portion is, as far as I can tell, a later addition based on the western ideas of a black/white magic duality., there's no connection to blood magic specifically.

...

Finally, "Majyo". "Majo" (魔女) literally means "magical/spirit/demon woman" - y'know, witches. As far as I can tell, it's just a different romanisation of the same word.

And as another Japanese speaker, I would like to clarify that all the above have a Western connotation. Also, "Majo" is Hepburn romanization, the most commonly used form in the West. "Majyo" can be Wapuro romaji, but that's a non-standard (and informal) romanization with inconsistent schemes.


...Tsukai (使い) does mean "user" - it comes from "tsukau", the verb for "to use". Mahou tsukai just means "magic user". ...

...and while "X"-tsukai can mean "X"-user (and "method of doing X"), "Tsukai", by itself in isolation, generally means "message", "errand", "messenger" or "envoy".


I may not have been totally clear about this earlier, but "Maho/Mahou" does not mean "mage". Maho translates as "magic"(with Mahoutsukai as "magic-user"). There's no real way of translating "demon mage" that hasn't already been used somewhere as a synonym for wizard.

「悪魔使い」(Akuma tsukai), 「悪魔召喚者」 (Akuma shoukansha).


Wu-jen is the Wade-Giles romanization of the Chinese 巫人, which is wú rén in pinyin. Back when Oriental Adventures was first written back in 1stEd days, Wade-Giles was still a popular romanization method, but pinyin is preferred now. 巫人 means "witchcraft person" or "pray/worship person" (before D&D invented the cleric class, there was no line between arcane and divine magic).

The fluff for the Wu-jen is also heavily based on Wuxing (Five Elements) and Taoism. They are pretty much supposed to be fantasy equivalents of actual 道士 (Dàoshi) or, alternatively, the Chinese sorcerer archetype in Wuxia novels.

Onmyouji are fairly similar, and like their Chinese counterparts, are also often regarded as scholars. I would suggest using them as the Japanese equivalent of arcane casters.


I'm seeing the term Hanyo used for a half human half yokai child. Is this accurate or a modern invention for anime?

I've seen it used in a lot of Japanese fantasy works set in Japan of various time periods. Still, the term was only first coined in Inuyasha, so it is a modern invention, but then again it wouldn't look out of place to most Japanese speakers.


So I'm researching magic in ancient Japan for the idea of making classes. On the religious side i have Onmyoji (shinto/buddhist occultists), Kannushi (shinto shrine maidens), Sou (Buddhist Monks), and Sohei/Yamabushi (warrior/monks).

Kannushi are shinto head priests (almost always male). Not shrine maidens. The latter would be miko.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2vjbyvk.jpg

Also, on a related note, familiars are referred to a 「式神」 (Shikigami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikigami)). This can be shortened to just "Shiki", and the term is used in certain Japanese works like Touhou. 「使い魔」 (Tsukaima) can also refer to familiars, but that term has a Western connotation. Basically, try to avoid compound words with 「魔」 (ma) in it if you are not familiar with Japanese; a lot of them tend to be coined to refer to something from the West.

('though, strictly speaking, it was originally used for certain spirits and deities from Hindu and Buddhist mythology.)

Plain 「使い」 (Tsukai) has a different connotation though, and it is sometimes used to refer to servants or familiars from Japanese mythology, in the sense of "envoy".


Thoughts on familiars for the Tsukai?? I need animals of magical significance and so far I have the following possibilities

No, don't use "Tsukai". It can never mean "Mage" or "Magic-user" by itself. People who know Japanese will look at you funny, especially since the term can also be used to refer to the actual familiars themselves. (see above.)

--



What about Oni? I was under the impression that they were universally bad.

Oni (ogres, for those who don't know) are frequently villainous, but before that, they are representative of physical power. Apart from simply destroying towns and the like, they can also be things like temple guardians if properly placated. You are correct in them being the poster child for malevolent spirits, though.

http://i43.tinypic.com/14ka42h.png (http://i44.tinypic.com/2nqr77s.png)
(Click me)


"Maho" mean "magic"? Psh, don't be ridiculous.

It obviously means "demon cannon".

Full Power, Maximum Release Total Annihilation!


Stop me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Maho" mean "magic/magical". (I was guessing since I read a lot of Manga and that word is constantly used to describe "Maho Shojo" aka "Magical Girls".) Then again it could be the same pronunciation with different characters.

「魔法」 Mahou: Magic

「魔法使い」 Mahou tsukai: Magic-user/Magician

「魔導師」 Madoushi: Wizard/Sorcerer/Mage (This term implies skill and/or veterency, as the literal meaning is "Master of the Magical Arts)

「魔法少女」 Mahou shoujo: Magical Girl.

「魔法少女」 Majo: Witch.

http://i41.tinypic.com/9l9wgk.jpg

Bhu
2012-01-18, 04:39 PM
No, don't use "Tsukai". It can never mean "Mage" or "Magic-user" by itself. People who know Japanese will look at you funny, especially since the term can also be used to refer to the actual familiars themselves.


I'm using Tsukai for one class in a different sense than magic user. It's specifically for the concept of someone who has helped a magical animal, and gained it as a protector, or someone who has stumbled onto a method for controlling one to do their bidding. A 'user' in a more pejorative sense. Also most of the stuff i saw called them 'kitsune-tsukai' (fox-user) or 'other animal name-tsukai'. I figured I'd just shorten it to tsukai and explain in the fluff.

Prime32
2012-01-18, 06:18 PM
I'm using Tsukai for one class in a different sense than magic user. It's specifically for the concept of someone who has helped a magical animal, and gained it as a protector, or someone who has stumbled onto a method for controlling one to do their bidding. A 'user' in a more pejorative sense. Also most of the stuff i saw called them 'kitsune-tsukai' (fox-user) or 'other animal name-tsukai'. I figured I'd just shorten it to tsukai and explain in the fluff.But why call them Used when you could call them Animal User? (Juu-tsukai?)

Ashtagon
2012-01-18, 06:34 PM
I'm using Tsukai for one class in a different sense than magic user. It's specifically for the concept of someone who has helped a magical animal, and gained it as a protector, or someone who has stumbled onto a method for controlling one to do their bidding. A 'user' in a more pejorative sense. Also most of the stuff i saw called them 'kitsune-tsukai' (fox-user) or 'other animal name-tsukai'. I figured I'd just shorten it to tsukai and explain in the fluff.

In Japanese, tsukai never has that pejorative connotation. The idiom doesn't translate with the same word.

NNescio
2012-01-18, 09:12 PM
But why call them Used when you could call them Animal User? (Juu-tsukai?)

That sounds like "Gunner" instead. 「銃使い」 (Gun-user)

I suggest "Kemono-tsukai" 「獣使い」 if you want to say "Beast-user"/"Beastmaster". Less ambiguous.


I'm using Tsukai for one class in a different sense than magic user. It's specifically for the concept of someone who has helped a magical animal, and gained it as a protector, or someone who has stumbled onto a method for controlling one to do their bidding. A 'user' in a more pejorative sense. Also most of the stuff i saw called them 'kitsune-tsukai' (fox-user) or 'other animal name-tsukai'. I figured I'd just shorten it to tsukai and explain in the fluff.

Look, "tsukai" is one of those words with multiple meanings. When you use it as part of a compound word, in the pattern of [Noun]-tsukai, it can refer to a [Noun]-user. It, however, can only have that meaning when used as a suffix, as part of a compound word. When you use "tsukai" by itself, in isolation, it has a different meaning. Generally, to a Japanese speaker, if you use it to refer to a person, the first things that comes to mind will be "envoy", "messenger", "servant", or more generically, "someone who acts on behalf of someone else (i.e. proxy)".

I can give you a similar example from English. In the words "riverbank", "sandbank", and "mudbank" the part "bank" means 'raised edge/slope". But if you just take the word "bank", in isolation, and tell someone, "That's a bank," while pointing at that a hill or a wall or the sides of a dyke, people are going to look at you funny.

Want more examples? Understand, forget, become, class level, armor class, saving throw...

...stand, get, come, level, class, throw. Wuh?

See how the semantics of words change when you take them apart and isolate its parts?

(And in case citations are needed:
1. http://www.edrdg.org/jmdictdb/cgi-bin/entr.py?svc=jmdict&sid=&e=1030990
2. http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/146506/m0u/ )

Bhu
2012-01-18, 11:35 PM
Generally, to a Japanese speaker, if you use it to refer to a person, the first things that comes to mind will be "envoy", "messenger", "servant", or more generically, "someone who acts on behalf of someone else (i.e. proxy)".



That still kinda works given the nature of the class being the pc using a familiar as his servant.

NNescio
2012-01-18, 11:38 PM
That still kinda works given the nature of the class being the pc using a familiar as his servant.

Your familiar is the tsukai. Not you.

It's like calling the "Druid" the "Animal Companion".

Of course, you can call your class whatever you like, and it is not my place to tell you what you can or cannot use. I'm just here to say, as someone who have read Japanese extensively, that it sounds very wrong to my ears. One of my (natively) Japanese friends whom I asked also agrees with me on that. Not that your players can probably tell the difference anyway, and if you're dead set on the name, just use it. I've argued too much over the semantics of that one particular word.

Bhu
2012-01-19, 02:01 AM
I didn't think of it as an argument (hugs)

it'll be a tricky class to make if i follow through because honestly your familiar has all the power. Not sure how to pull that off in level based system

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-19, 09:49 AM
Take a Druid and give it half-casting and no wildshape. Bam, a class where the "pet" has all the power and, as a bonus, is actually semi-balanced.

Alternatively, change the idea to the character getting magical powers from a "patron spirit", like a more material-plane-oriented Cleric, or a Spirit Shaman if you squint.

Also, might I just say this thread is fascinating. Much better than trying to parse Japanese folklore out of Japanese pop culture, which I gave up on long ago.

Morph Bark
2012-01-19, 10:15 AM
I didn't think of it as an argument (hugs)

it'll be a tricky class to make if i follow through because honestly your familiar has all the power. Not sure how to pull that off in level based system

Give the familiar most of the combat/offensive/some utility abilities and give the character defensive/supportive/aura abilities.

Then you can be the very best. Like no tsukai master ever was.

SGNenets
2012-01-19, 12:47 PM
Keep in mind that some of these Japanese terms are not special, unique terms that can't really be translated into English (some are, of course).

What I'm trying to say is that some of these terms, while Japanese, really do not be used in favor of their English counterparts just because the setting is Japanese. For example, the word mahotsukai: it means literally magic user. There's no reason to use that word as opposed to magic user unless everyone will be strictly talking in Japanese language in the campaign, as all the other words in your speech will still be in English.

Same thing applies to words with similar meaning: sure, beastmaster doesn't EXACTLY match up with "user of animals" in the sense you are describing, but there is really no reason why you can't use that word, while knowing that in this setting that word means something else than the general DnD term.

The point is, getting the fluff right (even when its just regular DnD things refluffed, for example fighter => samurai, rogue => ninja) is far more important than putting in some Japanese terms that mean basically the same thing to make an authentic setting.

Bhu
2012-01-19, 02:10 PM
Take a Druid and give it half-casting and no wildshape. Bam, a class where the "pet" has all the power and, as a bonus, is actually semi-balanced.

Alternatively, change the idea to the character getting magical powers from a "patron spirit", like a more material-plane-oriented Cleric, or a Spirit Shaman if you squint.

Also, might I just say this thread is fascinating. Much better than trying to parse Japanese folklore out of Japanese pop culture, which I gave up on long ago.

By 'all the power' I was kinda literal. If your familiar is killed or captured, unless you've forced/tricked/asked it to teach you anything, all your magical powers went with it. Depending on the circumstances of how you acquired said familiar, you might not be getting a new one anytime soon.


SGNenets: Luv the avatar

Nerd-o-rama
2012-01-19, 03:28 PM
By 'all the power' I was kinda literal. If your familiar is killed or captured, unless you've forced/tricked/asked it to teach you anything, all your magical powers went with it. Depending on the circumstances of how you acquired said familiar, you might not be getting a new one anytime soon.


SGNenets: Luv the avatar

Oh, I was trying to be nice. You don't really have to give the "master" anything but skill points and hit dice (assuming d20 here), and give the "familiar" that (with bigger hit dice) and class features. I think an important way to get this into a level paradigm is that the creature should, in fact, start off in a base form and gain bonuses (i.e. its own levels) as the mortal levels. They are, presumably, working together, after all.

Prime32
2012-01-19, 03:34 PM
By 'all the power' I was kinda literal. If your familiar is killed or captured, unless you've forced/tricked/asked it to teach you anything, all your magical powers went with it. Depending on the circumstances of how you acquired said familiar, you might not be getting a new one anytime soon.Like PF's witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch)?

Bhu
2012-01-19, 10:05 PM
Like PF's witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch)?

That will come in handy for the witch doctor class im making! Thanks prime!