D&D 3.5 Evilness

[TheLooker]

So my group decided that we would try something different after our former group of dread necromancer (myself), cleric (total undead bane) and monk (vow of poverty, nonviolence and all that) did not work out (surprise). So, we decided to have my guy become one of the main villains. So now I get to come up with ways to try and kill them. I have plenty in mind, but want to hear some other ideas as well. I am looking at ways to be able to destroy the cleric (who is completely optimized with a 41ish ac, a bazillion greater turnings, and a divine metamagic persistent spell doer). My dm is fairly flexible, with access to all books but no dragon magazines.

[Flasaro]

Just pray to whatever gods you hold dear that you're cleric adversary can't get access to a scroll(s) of Undeath to Death.:smalleek:

[Calanon]

So my group decided that we would try something different after our former group of dread necromancer (myself), cleric (total undead bane) and monk (vow of poverty, nonviolence and all that) did not work out (surprise). So, we decided to have my guy become one of the main villains. So now I get to come up with ways to try and kill them. I have plenty in mind, but want to hear some other ideas as well. I am looking at ways to be able to destroy the cleric (who is completely optimized with a 41ish ac, a bazillion greater turnings, and a divine metamagic persistent spell doer). My dm is fairly flexible, with access to all books but no dragon magazines.

Pretend to be there ally, defend them, help them provide a false alignment. Make them believe that they are enemies towards each other and can't trust each other get them to fight each other and kill each other. :smallbiggrin:

This is impossible if the party knows your alignment.

[Telonius]

I am looking at ways to be able to destroy the cleric (who is completely optimized with a 41ish ac, a bazillion greater turnings, and a divine metamagic persistent spell doer). My dm is fairly flexible, with access to all books but no dragon magazines.

Reciporcal Gyre (Spell Compendium) is one of my favorite spells against people who walk around constantly buffed with high-level spells. He'll probably make the save, but half of 25d6 is still a bunch of damage. (Average 43, I think).

Otherwise, standard no-saves are nice.

What's the composition of that 41 AC? Could a touch attack get to him?

[DrDeth]

So my group decided that we would try something different after our former group of dread necromancer (myself), cleric (total undead bane) and monk (vow of poverty, nonviolence and all that) did not work out (surprise). So, we decided to have my guy become one of the main villains. So now I get to come up with ways to try and kill them. I have plenty in mind, but want to hear some other ideas as well. I am looking at ways to be able to destroy the cleric (who is completely optimized with a 41ish ac, a bazillion greater turnings, and a divine metamagic persistent spell doer). My dm is fairly flexible, with access to all books but no dragon magazines.

Yes, that was no surprise. Also no surprise is that a PvP thing may come out even worse.

[myancey]

Traps. That group can be beaten by some awesome traps.

Or hire a caster to cast cloud kill and then the solid force cage. Etc.

Don't go after them personally--don't even use undead. Find some kind of wild card and then rock 'em.

[TheLooker]

Pretend to be there ally, defend them, help them provide a false alignment. Make them believe that they are enemies towards each other and can't trust each other get them to fight each other and kill each other. :smallbiggrin:

This is impossible if the party knows your alignment.

Hmm, this was actually what was originally happening. Without actual effort, my guy was slowly drifting into villiany, (mainly due to an evil intelligent heavy flail he has with an ego score up the wahoo). However, since I have already nearly killed the monk, killed the cleric (big dispute over heavy fortification and vorpal, although he keeps making weak arguments that it protects him when it explicitly doesn't, so because of this he was able to get his way out of dying, but that won't happen again :smallfurious:) they already hate me and are trying to kill me. So that won't work.

Reciporcal Gyre (Spell Compendium) is one of my favorite spells against people who walk around constantly buffed with high-level spells. He'll probably make the save, but half of 25d6 is still a bunch of damage. (Average 43, I think).

Otherwise, standard no-saves are nice.

What's the composition of that 41 AC? Could a touch attack get to him?

I realize that there are lots of no-saves, but don't most of them need touch attacks? His AC is something like this:
10+11(full plate with +3 enhancement)+ 5 WIS mod (saint)+ 5 or 6CHA mod (Risen Martyr ability)+ 3 (from shield I think)+ 4 (Shield spell)+ 4(saint aura). That's just rough estimate. I know I could hit him with a Dispel, but that would only make it go down by 8. As it is, it's impractical to try and get him with his touch AC.

As far as traps go, their saves are crazy enough I know that they could make them, plus I stilll have to build the traps nevertheless.
Basically I have tons of ideas for a society that I want to build, but at the moment I can't quite think of anything to use against he cleric, because undead are going to be virtually worthless (I know a ton of ways to buff them up to the point where they could work, but it would take too many resources), he can make saves, I can't hit him with touch AC's.
So ya, ideas?

[myancey]

As far as traps go, their saves are crazy enough I know that they could make them, plus I stilll have to build the traps nevertheless.
Basically I have tons of ideas for a society that I want to build, but at the moment I can't quite think of anything to use against he cleric, because undead are going to be virtually worthless (I know a ton of ways to buff them up to the point where they could work, but it would take too many resources), he can make saves, I can't hit him with touch AC's.
So ya, ideas?

Trap wise, give them ones that don't offer saves.

Traps where they drown, for example. Plus, you have the ability to create undead. Create a small undead swarm of piranha that attacks the suffocating party member. They are a swarm so they hit automatically, avoiding AC...and being undead/fish...they don't need to breath in the environment. Simply make the entrance into this watery abyss a one-way gig.
In my experience, very few players focus on trying not to drown unless they're in a water-heavy campaign. When delving into a dungeon in the center of some land mass...you don't expect to be going for a final swim. But even if they did...piranha swarms ftw.

The cloudkill/forcecage combo one wouldn't work if they're immune to poison...but will drain their con to zero even if they pass their saves otherwise (minimum of 1 pt. per round). And it normally would disperse..but not when it can't pass the forcecage. That would take the whole group out at once provided they were grouped together. Just hope they don't have the disintegrate spell.
As a note, a friend of mine designed this--at least as far as I'm concerned. Wouldn't want to take credit for it.

Edit: What it boils down to: you're forced to think outside the box on this one. High AC, great saves, and a CODzilla? Hit them with little used rules. Things that require only touch AC, no saves, etc.

Heck, hit them with that 3rd level spell in Frostburn that does 3d6 dex damage and allows them to drop to zero. Then shank them multiple times while they're laying there helpless. Coup de grace rules rock. Fort save vs. tons of damage? Heck yeah.
I forget the name of the spell.

[Telonius]

(Risen Martyr ability)....(saint aura).

It's been a while since I've looked at either of those. But if I'm remembering correctly, you could just encourage him to keep doing more and more heroic things, and the problem will take care of itself. Keep feeding him progressively harder foes, isolate him from the rest of the team when he's fighting them so only he gets the experience. Encourage him to use LA buyoff. After ten levels of Risen Martyr, the capstone removes your problem. :smallbiggrin:

Remember, too, that all of his stuff requires not just Good, but Exalted alignment. This is the straightest of the straight and narrow. One false move, and you lose most of your powers. It makes a Paladin's Code look lenient. Depending on how strictly your DM enforces this, you could seriously screw him over with it using the standard "moral dilemma, Paladin falls no matter what" baloney.

[Madara]

Are you undead? Build your evil lair underwater. Have a perminancied Anti-magic Field to drop their water breathing. Alternatively, the Necromancy guide has a section on lairs. Also, disease. No one ever pays attention to it, fill the town their going to pass through wil disease. They'll catch it. Do you think your DM will just push for classic good triumphs over evil?

[Darkomn]

I too noted the that the cleric is a risen martyr, why not just send in waves of level appropriate enemies until he hits risen martyr 10 and rises :smallbiggrin:

[myancey]

I too noted the that the cleric is a risen martyr, why not just send in waves of level appropriate enemies until he hits risen martyr 10 and rises :smallbiggrin:

As humorous as the notion is, it still would likely just level the party up until they were way higher than the OP. Then they proceed to scry him out and crush him.

[TheLooker]

Trap wise, give them ones that don't offer saves.

Traps where they drown, for example. Plus, you have the ability to create undead. Create a small undead swarm of piranha that attacks the suffocating party member. They are a swarm so they hit automatically, avoiding AC...and being undead/fish...they don't need to breath in the environment. Simply make the entrance into this watery abyss a one-way gig.
In my experience, very few players focus on trying not to drown unless they're in a water-heavy campaign. When delving into a dungeon in the center of some land mass...you don't expect to be going for a final swim. But even if they did...piranha swarms ftw.

The cloudkill/forcecage combo one wouldn't work if they're immune to poison...but will drain their con to zero even if they pass their saves otherwise (minimum of 1 pt. per round). And it normally would disperse..but not when it can't pass the forcecage. That would take the whole group out at once provided they were grouped together. Just hope they don't have the disintegrate spell.
As a note, a friend of mine designed this--at least as far as I'm concerned. Wouldn't want to take credit for it.

Edit: What it boils down to: you're forced to think outside the box on this one. High AC, great saves, and a CODzilla? Hit them with little used rules. Things that require only touch AC, no saves, etc.

Heck, hit them with that 3rd level spell in Frostburn that does 3d6 dex damage and allows them to drop to zero. Then shank them multiple times while they're laying there helpless. Coup de grace rules rock. Fort save vs. tons of damage? Heck yeah.
I forget the name of the spell.

AHA! GENIUS! Oh, that is so brilliant! Thanks so much! I didn't think of traps like those, so maybe I can just bait them into my lair and own them with a couple of traps. Also, the forcecage cloudkill one is pretty good, except that I can't cast those spells, so maybe I should look for scrolls? Thanks again!


It's been a while since I've looked at either of those. But if I'm remembering correctly, you could just encourage him to keep doing more and more heroic things, and the problem will take care of itself. Keep feeding him progressively harder foes, isolate him from the rest of the team when he's fighting them so only he gets the experience. Encourage him to use LA buyoff. After ten levels of Risen Martyr, the capstone removes your problem. :smallbiggrin:

Remember, too, that all of his stuff requires not just Good, but Exalted alignment. This is the straightest of the straight and narrow. One false move, and you lose most of your powers. It makes a Paladin's Code look lenient. Depending on how strictly your DM enforces this, you could seriously screw him over with it using the standard "moral dilemma, Paladin falls no matter what" baloney.

Ya, the Risen Martyr thing is kind of broken, I think he modified it a little so he could take the first level and get the CHA bonus, not take the deathless type, and then not have to progress further, which is total bull-crap. Maybe I should point that out. As far as his alignment in question goes, it says he will lose the benefits if he willingly commits an evil act. Would forcing him to choose the better of two evils be considered that? Probably not. So should I hit him with some spell that changes his actual alignment, like Mindrape (BoVD)? I'm not sure that I will be able to get him to do it unless it seems enticing to him.


Are you undead? Build your evil lair underwater. Have a perminancied Anti-magic Field to drop their water breathing. Alternatively, the Necromancy guide has a section on lairs. Also, disease. No one ever pays attention to it, fill the town their going to pass through wil disease. They'll catch it. Do you think your DM will just push for classic good triumphs over evil?

No, I'm not undead yet, but I'm definitely going to become a lich, or maybe a dry lich, I haven't decided which one yet. The lair idea is great! What is this Necromancy guide that you are talking about? I would love to see it! As far as disease goes, must of those have saves, correct? So I don't see how it would do much to them, except maybe force it upon town after town till they hopefully roll a one on a save, and even then, they can just cure it, right? As far as good triumphs over evil, I am going to very persuasively suade my DM to NOT become lame like that.

So I think that I need to definitely post some of my other ideas on being evil. You guys should TOTALLY give me input and critique. I will label it D&D 3.5 Evilness 2.0.

[Crasical]

Is the Monk still alive/been rezzed? Did he dump his Int to 8 or lower?

If so I may have something for you.

[TheLooker]

So here are some of my other ideas for when I am evil. Keep in mind I'm blindly ambitious, with basically world domination in mind. Also, the ongoing campaign at the moment features a war between gods, and on the bad side of things, I'm going to try and place myself at the top. First though, I thought that it would be good to build up my own society.
1. Gain reputation. Who wants to join somebody that isn't overly feared and powerful?
2. Gain followers. This is an interesting part, as I am going to try and persuade my DM to allow me to get several NPC's that will essentially act as badguys on my side. Suggestions? I was thinking it would be great to get a powerhouse Ultimate Magus (wizard/sorcerer) and then maybe some personal bodyguards. I will also create some really beefed up undead. I have an idea for a certain kind of undead that is going to be lots of different templates, one that will be considered the villain's "pet" (every villain needs some form of furry cat to stroke, whether its living, slimy, ragged or plain gross).
3. Expand. This is the part where I make raids, establish a funding system, get more powerful followers to help fuel a society, maybe look for artifacts, take control of towns.
4. Undead. This is the interesting part, where I decided that I wanted to be able to control every undead that I need. There are lots of undead that would be considered much too powerful to command with rebuking, or even creating, but that's why I came up with this idea. What if I was able to summon the undead (planar binding, coming across them ect,) into a room where I have created a special kind of Golem. This golem (immunity to magic, great DR and a special ability) will have a special ability that allows him to deliver the Touch of Golden Ice from the BoED, although with a much higher save. They will essentially be in a room (dimensional anchor, ect.) with this golem that will tear their DEX to zero so they can't move. Then, I find an undead template that has the spawn ability, but allows the undead to keep all of their former abilities, Shapechange into it (9th level spell), use its energy drain or whatever to kill it, and then cause it to raise as a spawn under my control. Obviously I could still have the standard 4HD per level (3+CHA for DN) of undead as well as with my rebuking, but that's just one way to get around it.
5. Build a lair. This is where I am kind of lost as to where to start.
6. Wizards. I'm thinking of buffing up on wizards that can craft contingent spells, empower my undead, create magic items, create constructs, all that stuff so that I can constantly have things that I need at my disposal.
7. Mass undead creation. This is simple, get some vampires, have them raid a town, bring back the people, drain them, BAM. Lots of undead. That's just one of the ways to do it.
So this is just a rough outline of SOME of my plans. I have it written out in a very detailed manner elsewhere. So, flaws? Ideas? Plans? Critique?

[TheLooker]

Is the Monk still alive/been rezzed? Did he dump his Int to 8 or lower?

If so I may have something for you.

Unfortunately not. All of these players have crazied out stats. None of them below a 12 for the Cleric, and none below a 16 for the monk. And the monk is still alive and has not died yet.

[myancey]

Also, the forcecage cloudkill one is pretty good, except that I can't cast those spells, so maybe I should look for scrolls?

If you have a tricked out UMD, then yeah, scrolls are great. If you don't, hire a spellcaster. Or take on a cohort--or even better--get Exemplars of Evil and ask your DM for henchmen since you're a baddie now.

Cost for hiring a spellcaster to cast a spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell)

[Telonius]

Ya, the Risen Martyr thing is kind of broken, I think he modified it a little so he could take the first level and get the CHA bonus, not take the deathless type, and then not have to progress further, which is total bull-crap. Maybe I should point that out. As far as his alignment in question goes, it says he will lose the benefits if he willingly commits an evil act. Would forcing him to choose the better of two evils be considered that? Probably not. So should I hit him with some spell that changes his actual alignment, like Mindrape (BoVD)? I'm not sure that I will be able to get him to do it unless it seems enticing to him.


Actually, yes, it would be considered an evil act. If it's evil, and he does it, then he Falls and loses all of his Exalted Feats until he Atones. Doesn't matter if it's a big Evil or a little evil. (Whether or not this is sensible or sane, that's the rules as written).

The FAQ has a ruling that expands on that a bit. For Assassin, but the general concept would apply to any alignment-based PrC:


What happens when an assassin becomes non-evil?
A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class.” (CW 16) You retain Hit Dice (and the hit points derived from), base attack bonus, and
base save bonuses granted by the prestige class. The rules don’t specifically list skill points (and class skills) as falling into either category; the Sage recommends that the character retain these functions even if he no longer meets the class requirements.

So your repentant assassin would lose his sneak attack, death attack, poison use, save bonus against poison, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and hide in plain sight class features, as well as his assassin spellcasting and any weapon and armor proficiencies gained from the class. He’d keep the skill ranks he bought with his assassin levels, as well as the hit points, base attack, and base save bonuses gained from those class levels. He also couldn’t gain any more assassin levels until his alignment returned to evil (at which point he’d also regain the various features he lost when his alignment changed to non-evil).

FAQ doesn't carry the same weight as RAW, but it's something to go on.

TL/DR: if he commits an evil act, he loses his Exalted feats. If he loses his Exalted feats, he no longer qualifies for Risen Martyr and loses all of the features associated with the class.

If the DM were really a stickler, he could rule that this includes "Spiritual Body," so an evil act would be an insta-kill for a Risen Martyr... :sabine:

[myancey]

Gain reputation. Who wants to join somebody that isn't overly feared and powerful?

Reputation will also help with followers. Variant reputation rules from UA. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/reputation.htm) This would be good for if a DM needs a rep based system to work with.


Gain followers. This is an interesting part, as I am going to try and persuade my DM to allow me to get several NPC's that will essentially act as badguys on my side.

Try the henchman thing from Exemplar's of Evil that I mentioned. Its usually for NPCs...but your DM might be persuaded.

You're a dread necromancer: so Undead Leadership from LM is a must. Plus, I have never found anything that suggests it does not stack with Leadership.

On that note: its the Rod of Undead Mastery (or something to that effect) from Libris Mortis. Pretty awesome for undead HD control.

Have a cleric for henchmen...heck--have all casters. At your level they're better than fighters and being a dread nec., you have all the meat shields you could possibly need.


Expand.

Check out Heroes of Battle for battle rules and Stronghold Builder's Guidebook for fortresses, military camps, etc.


Undead.

Remember that Rod of Undead Mastery from LM I mentioned. For serious.


Build a lair.

Again, Stronghold Builders Guidebook. Make it Undead friendly...breathing characters..not so friendly.

Load that sucker so full of traps that it'll eventually kill the party--two of them through damage, drowning, etc. The Risen Martyr from sheer XP gain from traps. Win win....win.

[missmvicious]

So... Xykon. Sounds like a great villain. :smallwink:

Elements throughout History you could reference for villainy include:

Nero
Caligula
Joseph Stalin
Ivan the Terrible
Omar al-Bashir
Muammar Gaddafhi (sp?)
Adolf Hitler

and...
I'm forgetting someone that I'm trying to remember through the haze of History classes long ago. Creepy looking guy... mean face. I get the impression that he was middle-eastern (not Osama). It's on the tip of my tongue. Grr. :smallmad:

Anyway... the interesting thing about all these historical figures is that they were both loved and feared. They had many followers who believed in their ideology and applauded their results, but they also had followers who simply were terrified and didn't want to be their enemy. A clever villain straddles this line well enough to keep the PCs confused, and it also retains suspension of disbelief. Armies of people are less likely to follow someone that is a completely vile psychotic rather than someone who retains enough of their sanity to think proactively, speak eloquently, and get results. That's why pure psychotics so frequently work alone or in small groups.

[myancey]

If the DM were really a stickler, he could rule that this includes "Spiritual Body," so an evil act would be an insta-kill for a Risen Martyr... :sabine:

Never thought about it that way..but good call. I don't have my books on me but the logic of it makes sense. Plus, its a way broken class when not adhering to a strict code of ethics/morality...

[cagemarrow]

Another "Evil" act that you can try and get him with is especially insidious, and might get a PHB thrown at you but heck you're evil you should be prepared for that.

Disguise yourself as a comely lass and ask the cleric to get you a glass of wine or ale at the local tavern. Per the D&D rules alcohol is a poison, and using poison is "Evil". . . laugh maniacally when he falls and then teleport away.

[myancey]

That's why pure psychotics so frequently work alone or in small groups.

Or have a horde of undead amassing at their backs.

Provided he has unbeatable numbers, it won't matter if he is loved..because the fear-o-meter is gonna' be trippin'.

That's the nice thing about undead. You make examples out of the living members of the society you're subjugating by killing them and then raising them to be mindless creepy undead.

I personally enjoy the crazy undead lover who believes he is doing the world a favor by turning everyone undead. He is, according to his viewpoint, eliminating the finality of death.

[Crasical]

Another "Evil" act that you can try and get him with is especially insidious, and might get a PHB thrown at you but heck you're evil you should be prepared for that.

Disguise yourself as a comely lass and ask the cleric to get you a glass of wine or ale at the local tavern. Per the D&D rules alcohol is a poison, and using poison is "Evil". . . laugh maniacally when he falls and then teleport away.

Disguise self as cleric, accompany party into an area full of corpses you prepared beforehand, some dead, some undead which rise from the ground and attack you and the party. After the first encounter, offer to cast Deathwatch so you can tell the difference between dead and undead.

If they accept your offer, They just had someone cast an [evil] descriptor spell on their behalf.

[missmvicious]

Provided he has unbeatable numbers, it won't matter if he is loved..because the fear-o-meter is gonna' be trippin'.

True, but that's assuming he has no intention of having any living followers, which he stated he wanted to do.

Not many NPCs would willingly join up with a PC who has a reputation for killing his followers and turning them into undead minions. It could happen though *glances at the Mystic Theurge in OoTS*, and it's a valid way to go about it, and my way certainly requires more Diplomacy/Intimidate rolls than your way does.

So... clever strategic alternative, Myancey. :smallsmile:

[deuxhero]

Whoever you take inspiration from, Mao is likely the worst choice on the short lists of evil people, most of kills being from sheer incompetence

I recommend Skeletor personally.

[TheLooker]

Reputation will also help with followers. Variant reputation rules from UA. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/reputation.htm) This would be good for if a DM needs a rep based system to work with.

This is great. Thanks!

Try the henchman thing from Exemplar's of Evil that I mentioned. Its usually for NPCs...but your DM might be persuaded.

I will have to check it out.

You're a dread necromancer: so Undead Leadership from LM is a must. Plus, I have never found anything that suggests it does not stack with Leadership.

I don't know about that. Can't I basically get the leadership feat by using Animate Dead? After all, the skellies and such that I would get wouldn't be totally powerful.

On that note: its the Rod of Undead Mastery (or something to that effect) from Libris Mortis. Pretty awesome for undead HD control.

Have a cleric for henchmen...heck--have all casters. At your level they're better than fighters and being a dread nec., you have all the meat shields you could possibly need.



Check out Heroes of Battle for battle rules and Stronghold Builder's Guidebook for fortresses, military camps, etc.



Remember that Rod of Undead Mastery from LM I mentioned. For serious.



Again, Stronghold Builders Guidebook. Make it Undead friendly...breathing characters..not so friendly.

Load that sucker so full of traps that it'll eventually kill the party--two of them through damage, drowning, etc. The Risen Martyr from sheer XP gain from traps. Win win....win.

I will definitely look into traps.


So... Xykon. Sounds like a great villain. :smallwink:

Elements throughout History you could reference for villainy include:

Nero
Caligula
Joseph Stalin
Ivan the Terrible
Omar al-Bashir
Muammar Gaddafhi (sp?)
Adolf Hitler

and...
I'm forgetting someone that I'm trying to remember through the haze of History classes long ago. Creepy looking guy... mean face. I get the impression that he was middle-eastern (not Osama). It's on the tip of my tongue. Grr. :smallmad:

Anyway... the interesting thing about all these historical figures is that they were both loved and feared. They had many followers who believed in their ideology and applauded their results, but they also had followers who simply were terrified and didn't want to be their enemy. A clever villain straddles this line well enough to keep the PCs confused, and it also retains suspension of disbelief. Armies of people are less likely to follow someone that is a completely vile psychotic rather than someone who retains enough of their sanity to think proactively, speak eloquently, and get results. That's why pure psychotics so frequently work alone or in small groups.

True, it would be nice to have an aura of respectability/fear/terror/admiration/loyalty and what not.

So where should I begin as far as funding goes? I can't really storm a town loaded with guards and such can I?

[TheLooker]

Disguise self as cleric, accompany party into an area full of corpses you prepared beforehand, some dead, some undead which rise from the ground and attack you and the party. After the first encounter, offer to cast Deathwatch so you can tell the difference between dead and undead.

If they accept your offer, They just had someone cast an [evil] descriptor spell on their behalf.

As devilishly delightful as these may sound, I doubt that it would make anybody in my group happy at all. They would pull the card that they did it "unwittingly" therefore being exemped from the consequences.


Another "Evil" act that you can try and get him with is especially insidious, and might get a PHB thrown at you but heck you're evil you should be prepared for that.

Disguise yourself as a comely lass and ask the cleric to get you a glass of wine or ale at the local tavern. Per the D&D rules alcohol is a poison, and using poison is "Evil". . . laugh maniacally when he falls and then teleport away.

Same with this.

[Chauncymancer]

As devilishly delightful as these may sound, I doubt that it would make anybody in my group happy at all. They would pull the card that they did it "unwittingly" therefore being exemped from the consequences.


Heh heh heh heh heh...
give the description of Atonement another look: You know why it mentions that unwitting or compelled evil is free? Because if you do evil, even under compulsion or magical mind control, even if you don't know what your doing is evil, YOU STILL NEED AN ATONEMENT SPELL. Why? BECAUSE YOU STILL FALL :belkar:
Once you've depowered your little friends, you just need to destroy all the clerics in your tri-state area that can cast Atonement.

[Randomguy]

What level is the party? If they don't have access to true seeing yet, hire a beguiler and heads will roll. The bridge over that pool of still water? The water is a redundant illusion to hide the giant squid. The bridge is real, but starts five feet after where it appears to start.

Have a room full of acid in your dungeon, with acidborn sharks and possibly a black dragon in there, with the only entrance a small opening that's only just big enough to drop through and covered by a manhole that can only be opened from the outside. The party sees the room and the sharks swimming around in the acid through the door, they buff up with acid immunity and water breathing, they go through the entrance and BAM! They pass through a wall of dispel magic and the door slams shut.

Invest in a magic item of once per day anticipate teleportation. No scry and die for them.

Consider a 3 level dip in the dungeon lord prestige class after you become a lich and after you found yourself a nice place to your dungeon of doom. Dimension door to any part of the dungeon, ignore all the traps you put there, your minions ignore all the traps you put there and you get clairaudience/clairvoyance at will within the dungeon.

Hire some living minions (from an almost always evil race), or get them through leadership. Have the worker's wives and kids live in the dungeon in special chambers. It gives the PC's a moral dilemma and a chance to fall and lose their powers.

Fill the entire dungeon with anchor mists. That handy haversack where all the useful stuff they have is in? Inaccessible. No way around that, either, and it's not dispersed by wind.

Use black sand from sandstorm in areas where you do have undead. It makes them heal every round and deals damage to the PC's. Also, magical darkness is hard to see through. Fill passages with moon dust, and have them fight undead while suffocating.

Never use normal water, but use either acid or red seas. The best part of red seas is that if the cleric's holy symbol is metal, it corrodes as well.

[missmvicious]

That's easy enough. Buff your CHA and Diplomacy your way into an Aristocrat's heart.

Become his/her confidante, advisor, lover, whatever it takes. Just turn him into putty in your hands. Then use that influence to get whatever you want from him: Money, soldiers, weapons, horses, land... whatever you need.

Periodically work the crowd by making public appearances so you stay popular with the locals. Be sure to do things that make the town better than it was when you got there. Then occasionally make known certain reasons why the Aristocrat has lost his/her ability to run the show, but never let anyone realize that you're the one making this stuff known. Perhaps anytime you attempt to do something evil, and it fails, you could find a way to make the evidence point to the Aristocrat.

When the crowds begin to align against him, say that some madness or curse brought about by a powerful Wizard in [insert name of town you want to usurp] and that you will rule in his stead until such time that we can thwart the "villain" and cure the town's beloved leader.

In the meantime, if anyone figure out it's you... kill them and turn them into one of your undead minions. If anyone notices the disappearances or sees the zombies, point it out as further evidence of the evil Wizard cursing this land, so that you can inspire urgency that you be allowed to build an army to attack the Wizard immediately.

Once you've conquered the neighboring territory, run it with the same dedication to it's economic growth and military security you pretended to have for your starter town. Rinse, Lather, Repeat until all the lands you desire are conquered.

It's a classic Evil Diplomancer subplot.

[Igneel]

Leave a bunch of ammunition with the Unholy or Vile weapon enchantments sporadically amoungst the dead and/or undead bodies as 'loot'. Hopefully the player behind the character won't have the sense to use spells like Identify for every single bit of ammo. Then he would take at least a -1 level lose either for each ammo or a -1 for the bundle. If the later, have shuriken, sling bullets, arrows, and various other types of ammo so that they are different types of ammo and theoretically different sources of -1 levels.

Combo of the previously mentioned undead/living Piranaha swarm with the Acidborn template in a specially prepared room of acid. Or even a zombie/skeleton black dragon since they don't have the same limit as a normal Animate Undead zombie/skeleton.

Either that or have a trap inside the room full of water to cast certain spells like Blackwater Taint [Stormwrack] keyed to activate at divine spell castings to heal a max of 10d6 HP to all undead in range along with Desecrate. Other nice spells are listed in the Blackwater Domain like Doom of the Tides. Or just an Water to Acid spell...

If your going for the Lich template, there was a thread a while ago that had a devilishly evil idea for a phylactery. Take a minion baby, kill it, use a fragment of the skull or inscribe the 'magic inscriptions' on the inside to make it your phylactery, Ressurect the baby, Mindrape it into forgetting you and hide him amoungst other children of a nearby village or some-such. Now in order to permenantly kill you they would have to kill the kid which will hopefully grow up 'innocent' enough. Make it better by leaving him as an orphan at the doorsteps of the church the cleric worships at. Only real snag I can think of is if the baby 'decides' to not come back to its body, but then how does a baby know any better?

Pending on the minimum of three exalted feats needed to gain the Saint Template, and two for Risen Martyr could determine other ways to make him fall. Course knowing your luck he most likely picked exalted feats like Exalted Turning, Nimbus of Light [required for Martyr] and Holy Radiance which are three feats that help a Exalted Cleric without having 'loosing' conditions outside of doing vanilla evil. If he took a Vow like Abstinence for example though, that is another story...

Start a 'black' plague in the nearest major city using zombie rats in the sewers with commands to spend time in food storages and such causing the populace to fall deathly ill. Theoretically if he is truely a good Saint he should head on over to try and help once the death toll starts accumulating. If he doesn't at the very least try to help wouldn't that be as bad as letting an orphanage go up in flames? If all goes according to plans just as fast as he can heal them they will get sick again.

Recruit a Fiend of Possession to hide amoungst either loot or the cleric's items and randomly cause problems by using their abilities like the Bestow Curse SLA and use some of the example alternative curses from Book of Vile Darkness. Some choice ones I like are...
-The next person introduced to the target for the first time will hate him or her uncontrollably forever. Even if this curse is removed, the person still hates the victim of the
curse, but the victim can improve the person’s attitude normally after the curse is gone. [Do this right before he enters a location like a orphanage or even a good aligned church. Even better if done on a peasent just meeting the Cleric, technically he will hate the peasent with no save according to the text.]
-Each round in combat, there is a 25% chance that the target will attack the nearest creature rather than choosing an opponent normally. [Do this during a war or room full of undead attacking innocents]
-Each time the target meets someone for the first time, there is a 50% chance that the new person will confuse the target with a hated enemy, a well-known criminal, or a raving lunatic. [Hilarity for when entering a new town.]
-All creatures of a specific kind (such as orcs, owlbears, or black dragons) are permanently invisible to the sight of the victim (invisibility purge does not help, but see invisibility and true seeing do). The spellcaster chooses the kind of creature. [Use this to make a certain type of undead you favor like a skeleton, use Disguise Undead to make it seem like a living being to everyone else, there isn't really anything on if the Cleric would be able to see it even after being disguised, have it wave at him for bystanders to see even if he can't see before it shanks a kid. Bystanders see that he didn't do anything to stop it. Either that or have this on something like Shadows or Allips and while he is asleep let them drain him.]

Not only is there Black Sand, but there are other 'black' sources like Ice. If you can get a specially prepared room of ice you can put in some Stygian ice for some Wraith generation. Sand is just easier to come upon and slightly more sinister by summoning swarms and having them die in the area to accumulate more sand, eventually you can fill a room with it. A question I have always had was what happens if that sand was made into glass and you use it for an underwater base as a way to have the effect of the sand wherever you have glass walls/ceiling and if broken a flooded room is ensured.

[*.*.*.*]

AMF+BIG Golem

If the cleric doesn't have contingencies for AMF, he is as good as dead. Combine this with the underwater lair suggestion if need be.