Two-weapon Fighting headaches.... Halp?

[Kyberwulf]

I have a couple of players. I need help with finding ways to help their character concepts.

It envolves this, using big swords in both hands. In saying that, I mean a Greatsword in each hand. I need help with finding feats, and classes that will facilitate the maximum advantage for this. I am more interested in feat selection then trying for crazy class combos.

This is for both the Pathfinder Setting, and the 3.x setting.

Also, to further complicate this arragement..... Thri-Keen.

One of my player wants to be able to carry, and fight with, 4 Greatswords.

[Anecronwashere]

I'd suggest Monkey Grip and one of the Homebrew TWF styles floating around the Boards

[Fyermind]

Probably nothing you don't know but:

Monkey Grip (CW) hold a greatsword in 1 hand
Multiweapon fighting (one of those monstery books... mm1? ss?) no more -10 penalties to three of your attacks

Fighter or psychic warrior seem like they might be able to handle the feat intensiveness.

I like the psychic warrior idea because expansion could get pretty crazy.

But since you seem to have crazy players, have you suggested throwing greatswords?

Throw anything (CW) or bloodstorm blade (ToB) makes this possible.

[Thurbane]

Strongarm Bracers (MIC) allow you to wield weapons as if you were one size larger. A large creature can wield a two-handed medium weapon in one hand with a -2 size penalty. Combined with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting feat, this will do what you want (with some hefty to hit penalties).

I would instead recommend using Strongarm Bracers and OTWF to wield 2 large longswords (or two large bastard swords if you want to blow a feat on EWP).

[JaronK]

Since they want insanely big weapons, what about dual wielding Large Heavy Bastard Swords with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Strongarm Bracers? That's effectively the same as wielding a pair of large Greatswords.

Unfortunately... it's still not that amazing. But I bet they want to hit hard, so why not just have fun with Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Battle Jump? Thri-Keen are good jumpers anyway, so it fits.

JaronK

[Darrin]

Monkey Grip (CW) hold a greatsword in 1 hand


Monkey Grip doesn't work that way. A greatsword still requires two hands to use. Monkey grip allows you to use a larger-sized greatsword with two hands, or a larger-sized longsword in one hand. And you still have to take a -2 size penalty.

Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC) is a much better deal. A medium-sized creature with Strongarm Bracers could wield a greatsword one-handed, but would still take a -2 size penalty. You can get rid of the size penalty with a large-sized longsword, which is mechanically identical to a medium greatsword. You can get a bit more damage with EWP and a large-sized bastard sword (2d6 average damage = 7, 2d8 average damage = 9).

Some other options:

Half-Giant Psychic Warrior with Expansion. Take EWP (bastard sword) and Oversize TWF (CompAdv).

Diopsid (Dragon Compendium) comes with its own special TWF rules, which would allow it to wield two large-sized longswords or two medium-sized greatswords, but it would still take a -4 penalty on all attacks for having a non-light offhand weapon. The Oversize TWF feat might help with that. As with the Half-Giant, there's a +1 Level Adjustment for Diopsid.

Get an extra pair of arms. This post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10699987&postcount=10) covers a variety of methods for that.

[Myth]

Tell them the rule of melee fighting: attack bonuss = power attack = damage. Losing attack bonuses due to stupid TWF or oversized wepons (let lone both) means losing a more reliable, better, more scalable and controllable source of damage.

Dual wielding two long blades, let alone greatswords, is completely made up and popularized by bad Hollywood movies and sword&sorcery novels. It is a ridiculous concept, but somehow the fans drool over it, just like katanas that are being able to cut trough other swords, slabs of iron, stone pillars or T-34 tanks.

In short: it's mechanically inferior in 3.5 DnD and it's completely stupid fiction as far as a combat "style" is concerned. I know this is a fantasy game, but if you detract from the "coolness factor" perhaps they'll just go and do what everyone else does, and use a one-handed weapon with PA.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why does he want to use two weapons? Does he like being able to roll lots of attacks, or does he just think it's cool?

If he just thinks it's cool, do it like Lloyd in Tales of Symphonia: make each pair of swords 'one' weapon, mechanically, and leave it at that.

[Kyberwulf]

I think he just likes the Big Weapons.

Monkey Grip and the Bracers? Those are the only two options?
Thanks for the help though... the Bracers are awesome and I will mention them to him.

[killem2]

They could also start out as large size humanoids and wield medium version of the weapons right?

[Machinekng]

They could also start out as large size humanoids and wield medium version of the weapons right?

Doesn't the Half-Ogre template make you large?

If so, he could play Half-Ogre Thri-Keen with Multiweapon Fighting and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, using large bastard swords (2d8). Then, take a level of Barbarian for Lion Spirit Totem.

It wouldn't be able to use great swords, but large Bastard Swords do more damage. Heck, you could even add in those Bracers to use huge bastard swords to make 3d8 damage.

Thri-Kreen have a ECL of 4, and Half-Ogre (I think) has a LA of +2, so...

Half-Ogre Thri-Kreen Lion Spirit Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Psy Warrior 1/Martial Rouge 2/ Warmind 10/ Barbarian 1

Psy Warrior: Combined with Able Learner to make Knowledge (Psionics) a class skill.

Martial Rouge: Use the Skill Points to get Knowledge (Psionics) (with the Half-Ogre template and Thri-Kreen, you're going to be begging for skill points).

Warmind: Sweeping Stike is very nice, and the class's chains help make up for the low BaB.

I forget wether there's an Int requirment for able learner. If so:

Half-Ogre Thri-Kreen Lion Spirit Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Martial Rouge 4/ Warmind 10

I know this qualifies as a crazy class combo, but hey it's some good-hearted TO.

[Greenish]

Doesn't the Half-Ogre template make you large?The template is 3.0. In 3.5, half-ogre is a race on it's own. You can find the latter from Races of Destiny.

Half-minotaur (Dragon #313) is the only template not reprinted in any newer book I can think of that increases your size. Of course, it's ridiculously good for it's LA, mainly due to a weird rules snafu with size categories.

Thri-Kreen have a ECL of 4Non-psionic thri-kreen (Shining South) clocks in 2 RHD and only +1 LA, if my memory serves. Half-minotaur non-psionic thri-kreen would total to 2 (monstrous humanoid, so full BAB) RHD, +2 LA.

[ericgrau]

As long as you have 4 weapons combine them with bonus per-attack effects like bonus damage, spell storing, disarm (& trip if they weren't greatswords), etc., etc.

[Metahuman1]

Since they want insanely big weapons, what about dual wielding Large Heavy Bastard Swords with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Strongarm Bracers? That's effectively the same as wielding a pair of large Greatswords.

Unfortunately... it's still not that amazing. But I bet they want to hit hard, so why not just have fun with Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Battle Jump? Thri-Keen are good jumpers anyway, so it fits.

JaronK

Have then then invest in some Items that get Perminate Shrink Item to Fine size and Animate Object. Have the Animated Objects use Aid another every combat round to grant them a +2 to hit. Give them enough to Off Set the Penalty's for Full power attacking, TWF/Multiy Weapon Fighting (Which ever applies.) and using the over sized weapons.

It's still not Super Duper, but it seems like it would at least be a reasonable damage dealer. Assuming a not super high op game anyway.

Looking Into Barbarian for pounce and Improved Trip then Picking up Knock-down would also help. As would an Affiliation. Have it grant Favored Power attack, and give them all the Rangers Favored Enemy types (Or all the ones that monsters your gonna make them fight fall under.) So that you can get 3 damage per point of BAB you spend power attacking.

On top of the size of there weapons and the bonuses from Aid another, you'd actually be reasonably effective Melee'rs. Though yes, it's an INSANE build.

[Snowbluff]

Since they want insanely big weapons, what about dual wielding Large Heavy Bastard Swords with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Strongarm Bracers? That's effectively the same as wielding a pair of large Greatswords.

Unfortunately... it's still not that amazing. But I bet they want to hit hard, so why not just have fun with Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Battle Jump? Thri-Keen are good jumpers anyway, so it fits.

JaronK

Revenant Blade.

[Kyberwulf]

Okay... Heres what i got so far

monkey Grip- from 3.0 and 3.5

Wield Oversized Weapon- Complete Warrior

Two-Weapon FIghting- Players Handbook

and

Strongarm Bracers- Mic

how would all that work out?

[killem2]

You could also, take (assuming your DM allows them), two flaws from unearth arcana, then get two more feats. (just take two that are going to harm you the least, shouldn't be hard really)

Not sure what else you could take, maybe just generic stuff to increase chases to hit with the specific weapon or something, then use masterwork weapons, so they themselves get + to hit.

[Yuki Akuma]

Okay... Heres what i got so far

monkey Grip- from 3.0 and 3.5

Wield Oversized Weapon- Complete Warrior

Two-Weapon FIghting- Players Handbook

and

Strongarm Bracers- Mic

how would all that work out?

Strongarm Bracers and Monkey Grip do the same thing and don't stack (both allow you to wield weapons as if you were one size category larger than you actually are). Strongarm Bracers are mechanically superior to Monkey Grip, too.

Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer, I'm pretty sure) is the feat you're looking for - the one that lets you wield one-handed weapons in your off-hand without the extra -2 penalty.

All of these taken together would let you wield two large sized longswords (which do 2d6 slashing damage, the same as a medium greatsword). If wielding both at once you'd get two attacks at your highest BaB with a -2 penalty (one of which only adds half your Strength bonus to damage).

If you use Monkey Grip instead of Strongarm Bracers, you're taking an additional -2 penalty to each attack, because Monkey Grip sucks.

If he has four arms (which I think he does), I think you might be able to wield two large greatswords (which would be 3d6 slashing damage each), but I'm not sure how those interact with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting.

I'd suggest just going with Multiweapon Fighting and wielding four large longswords if you have four arms. This way you'd get four attacks at your highest BaB, all of them at a -2 penalty (and three of them only adding half your strength bonus to damage).

So... yeah. My advice:

Feats: Multiweapon Fighting, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
Items: Strongarm Bracers, four Large longswords

[Curmudgeon]

The template is 3.0. In 3.5, half-ogre is a race on it's own. You can find the latter from Races of Destiny.

Half-minotaur (Dragon #313) is the only template not reprinted in any newer book I can think of that increases your size.
Half-Ogre is also a template in that same Dragon issue. WotC's replacement rule is only for things with the same name and in the same category, so the Half-Ogre race and Half-Ogre template can coexist.

[Gavinfoxx]

There is a thread dedicated to the various ways of increasing your effective size:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777

See? A nice big compilation of methods. MANY more options than Monkey Grip or those bracers.

Here are some more relevant bits:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6893722&postcount=35

It sounds like you want a.) lots of attacks, and b.) effectively weapon size increases. To that, I would suggest adding c.) extra per-attack damage, like from sneak attack, hence the two other posts. Note that these tend to be a somewhat sub-par method of doing damage...

You might want to read the thread that talks about melee combos in general, too!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

[hex0]

Bubble burst: The thing is, TWF is dex intensive (unless you are a Ranger) and wielding large weapons is strength intensive. I mean it can be done but you are going to hit less than a Monk by doing so. Honestly I'd strongly suggest just using 4 Kukris (and your bite) if I were playing a Thri-Kreen, and deal tons of crits. Or use 4 maces and take the Lightning Maces feat. I mean, yeah, wielding four giant swords looks badass on the first round of combat but looks ridiculous when you flail around and miss.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Bubble burst: The thing is, TWF is dex intensive (unless you are a Ranger) and wielding large weapons is strength intensive.

...Unless you're talking about encumbrance, it doesn't really matter. Encumbrance can be negated by carrying everything other than weapons and armor in a Bag of Holding or Handy Haversack.

There are plenty of reasons it's bad, but MAD isn't one of them.

[sonofzeal]

...Unless you're talking about encumbrance, it doesn't really matter. Encumbrance can be negated by carrying everything other than weapons and armor in a Bag of Holding or Handy Haversack.

There are plenty of reasons it's bad, but MAD isn't one of them.
It's Str-intensive for damage. There's always Shadow Blade which helps, but you still get Str to damage and Shadow Blade doesn't give the tasty 1.5x bonus. And IIRC Shadow Blade only works with a certain list of weapons, of which greatswords aren't one.

So yeah, you can swing for 2d6 damage per hit, but nobody's going to be impressed at even medium levels.

[hex0]

It's Str-intensive for damage. There's always Shadow Blade which helps, but you still get Str to damage and Shadow Blade doesn't give the tasty 1.5x bonus. And IIRC Shadow Blade only works with a certain list of weapons, of which greatswords aren't one.

So yeah, you can swing for 2d6 damage per hit, but nobody's going to be impressed at even medium levels.

It is also STR intensive for hitting since you can't Finesse a Greatsword. :smallamused: So your options are basically either play a high str Ranger or use some light weapons like I suggested.

Ok, there is a third option: spam attacks like crazy. Because, as you said 2d6 per hit gets boring at medium levels. Natural attacks scale with size and/or Improved Natural Attack. You can do Unarmed/4 claws/Bite/Blade Boots/Helmet Spike/Whatever and get a ridiculous amount of attacks at higher levels, especially with Full BAB flurry if you can get it.

[Kyberwulf]

:(

These are all good ideas, but i am not looking for ways to make his character bigger. Just ways that he could concievable wield Greatswords in his hands...

..see the thing is.. if he gets to be Large ... he would want to hold the equivalent of Greatswords in his hands..which i think would be like ... REALLY big Swords lol.

To Clarify, Monkey Grip does NOT stack with the Bracers?

I thought they might have.

[Greenish]

Half-Ogre is also a template in that same Dragon issue. WotC's replacement rule is only for things with the same name and in the same category, so the Half-Ogre race and Half-Ogre template can coexist.Well, I'll be. You could be a half-ogre half-ogre ("other half, also ogre"). The template doesn't even have LA if you're already Large.


Bubble burst: The thing is, TWF is dex intensive (unless you are a Ranger)Or a diopsid.


It is also STR intensive for hitting since you can't Finesse a Greatsword.But you can finesse an elven courtblade. Costs a feat, but at least you can dip EWM, so a DM that allowed you to wield two-handers one-handed might even allow the improved PA returns from that one trick to work. It's not Revenant Blade, but it'll do.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It is also STR intensive for hitting since you can't Finesse a Greatsword.

Another feat? Seriously, if a character only has one good stat, and that stat's 16 at 1st level, they're going to be pretty bad.

[Gavinfoxx]

@OP: Can you tell that this is a combat style that the game REALLY REALLY REALLY doesn't want you to do? I think it should be obvious by this point...

[FMArthur]

Actually the diopsid race is pretty much made specifically for the concept and they deserve much more attention for this type of build. With the Oversized TWF feat they can TWF with Large longswords with just the standard -2/-2 penalties, which are identical in benefits to Medium greatswords. They also happen to be wielding each of those in two hands, meaning that you can get all the benefits of THF and TWF at the same time. With no Dexterity investment whatsoever.

They are such a fun race.

[Kyberwulf]

If Large Longswords are machenicly the same as Greatswords. Shouldn't they be interchangable for being able to be duel-wielded?

[Hiro Protagonest]

If Large Longswords are machenicly the same as Greatswords. Shouldn't they be interchangable for being able to be duel-wielded?

They're not mechanically the same. Greatswords impose a -2 penalty on large creatures using them, and large longswords impose a -2 penalty on medium creatures using them.

[Kyberwulf]

I meant, if the character has Monkey Grip of the Bracers. It will still impose the -2 Penalty either if you use the Greatsword or the Large Longsword.

[Gavinfoxx]

Letting a Large Longsword be the same fundamental weapon as a Medium Greatsword (or whatever) is an optional rule somewhere... I forget where, exactly though.

[Urpriest]

Letting a Large Longsword be the same fundamental weapon as a Medium Greatsword (or whatever) is an optional rule somewhere... I forget where, exactly though.

There's some discussion of it in the DMG. It's also closer to how things worked in 3.0. It's not especially appropriate for 3.5 though.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wasn't there more in Arms & Equipment Guide? That was mostly 3.0, though...

[Curmudgeon]

Wasn't there more in Arms & Equipment Guide? That was mostly entirely 3.0, though...
Fixed that for you. Arms and Equipment Guide is strictly a 3.0 book, so everything it says about weapon sizes is obsolete; 3.5 rules discarded that system.