Not quite sure...(Ordained Champ Cleric)

[zeshion]

So i've been messing with an ordained champion "war-cleric" build for some time. I have gone through several revisions in how I think the character should function as a whole and I think I have something workable BUT I question or or two of my feats choices as well as my magic items and possible spells. Please take a look and feel free to make any suggestions that might aid my decision.

Available Books: Core, Complete, Spell Compedium, Magic Item Compedium

Level 12: Human Cleric 7/Ordained Champion 5

Stats:(rolled)
Str:16
Dex:10
Con:16
Int:13
Wis:21(+3 for level bonus)
Cha:14

Feats:(NOTE-Divine Metamagic is banned and therefore will NOT be included)
Zen Archery
Practiced Spellcaster
Law Devotion
Holy Warrior
Power Attack(Ordained champ bonus)
*Combat Expertise(Ordained Champ bonus) -Will be changed in next revision to ???
*Improved Combat Expertise -Will be changed in next revision to Craft Contigent Spell
Reach Spell

Items:
Weapon: +1 Defending(+1) Longsword
Shield: +1 Animated(+2) Heavy Steel Shield
Armor: +1 Called (2k) Death Ward (+1) Full Plate
Feet: Anklet of Translocation
Neck: Amulet of Retributive Healing
Arms: Strongarm Bracers
Head: Phylactery of Faithfulness
Waist: Belt of Dwarvenkind
Ring of Sustenance: 2.5k
Metamagic Rod of Extend: 11k

Thoughts:
The idea behind the character is to be right up in combat and can fulfill several roles easily. He can deal a lot of damage by channeling his spells through his weapon (such as a spontaneous Flame Strike or a Harm) and can deal decent damage without it. I chose the (Improved)Combat Expertise in order to make him very tanky when necessary. If needed, he can back off and switch his divine power BAB (which will always be up with this character) to AC and swift cast spiritual weapons every turn to output damage without putting himself in much danger. Obviously, as a cleric, he can also easily become a support role.

Concerns:
I not sure that he is able to output enough damage without channeling a spell. I have debated about putting an enhancements on my weapon that might increase the damage but I am not 100%. Another problem I have been seeing is what to do in my "defensive" role. The obvious choice was I could continue to swift cast spiritual weapons so I'm still "doing something" but in order to keep that high AC i need to make the max improved combat expertise attacks every turn correct? I was thinking about supplementing this strategy with magic enhancements on my armor that might return dealt damage to me OR selecting certain spells such as ring of blades that deals damage while I'm defensive.

Summary:
Based on the above information I am looking for feat, magic item, and spell suggestions that may supplement this type of character.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Could you list stat generation (Point buy, rolling method, what have you) and books available?

Improved Combat Expertise is a bit of a trap. I'd suggest Quicken Spell simply for the possibility to get spells out faster in a tough fight. Without Divine Metamagic, it's harder to do, but blowing your cash on a Rod of Quicken (4-6th level spells) isn't a bad idea for when you want to drop Divine Power and Righteous Might both in the same turn or other spell combos.

Zen Archer covers ranged touch attacks, Reach spell gets you in combat Heal with spontaneous castings (I recommend Spontaneous Domain set to healing, the feat, Complete Champion). There are other ways (ACFs), but that's just something I'd like to have.

Other than that, your items are solid and most everything is "good." The trick is preparing the right cleric spells, and I am sadly no cleric expert in that regard.

[zeshion]

Could you list stat generation (Point buy, rolling method, what have you) and books available?
I have added the stat generation to the first post (rolled with +3 on Wis) as well as available books. Thanks for mentioning that!


Improved Combat Expertise is a bit of a trap. I'd suggest Quicken Spell simply for the possibility to get spells out faster in a tough fight. Without Divine Metamagic, it's harder to do, but blowing your cash on a Rod of Quicken (4-6th level spells) isn't a bad idea for when you want to drop Divine Power and Righteous Might both in the same turn or other spell combos.
Yeah the whole combat expertise was just an idea that SORT OF worked well. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how to best utilize it if I decide to keep it (which I may not depending on how this thread goes). I certainly would not mind a rod of Quicken. I don't have the gold yet but it's something on my list to have. I can, however, already cast both Divine Power and Righteous Might in the same turn: Cast Divine Power as a swift action (since I can do that with any War domain spell, Divine power being one) and then just normal cast Righteous Might!


Zen Archer covers ranged touch attacks, Reach spell gets you in combat Heal with spontaneous castings (I recommend Spontaneous Domain set to healing, the feat, Complete Champion). There are other ways (ACFs), but that's just something I'd like to have.
I have considered doing this before but I don't think it will work out. Reach spell was just something I added on so that he might be able to heal his allies while might not being right next to them. The major problem is that if I switch from spontaneously casting heal instead of the war domain spells, I lose the ability to swift cast any of the war domain spells. Free swift Divine Power? YES PLEASE!


Other than that, your items are solid and most everything is "good." The trick is preparing the right cleric spells, and I am sadly no cleric expert in that regard.
Well thank you for your help :)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I have added the stat generation to the first post (rolled with +3 on Wis) as well as available books. Thanks for mentioning that!

No problem. It's one of the more nuanced bits to it, which helps.



Yeah the whole combat expertise was just an idea that SORT OF worked well. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how to best utilize it if I decide to keep it (which I may not depending on how this thread goes). I certainly would not mind a rod of Quicken. I don't have the gold yet but it's something on my list to have. I can, however, already cast both Divine Power and Righteous Might in the same turn: Cast Divine Power as a swift action (since I can do that with any War domain spell, Divine power being one) and then just normal cast Righteous Might!

Silly me! This is one of those cases where I know enough of the framework (Divine Gish/Holy Warrior beatstick) but not the details.:smallredface:



I have considered doing this before but I don't think it will work out. Reach spell was just something I added on so that he might be able to heal his allies while might not being right next to them. The major problem is that if I switch from spontaneously casting heal instead of the war domain spells, I lose the ability to swift cast any of the war domain spells. Free swift Divine Power? YES PLEASE!

To be fair, Spontaneous Domains gives you a free "OH CRAP!" button to slap when the need arises. It means sacrificing your domain slots from divine power and the like and instead having those slots stick around for "Well, this teammate just ate a buttload of damage, better spontaneously cast heal on them."

It's a good feat for when things go poorly and gives you more than Improved Combat Expertise.



Well thank you for your help :)

No problem! You've done most of the work on the build so far. It's simple and elegant. Here's hoping your gaming goes well!:smallsmile:

[zeshion]

To be fair, Spontaneous Domains gives you a free "OH CRAP!" button to slap when the need arises. It means sacrificing your domain slots from divine power and the like and instead having those slots stick around for "Well, this teammate just ate a buttload of damage, better spontaneously cast heal on them."
Ok i see where you were going with that. Well the problem with that is the cleric's deity is Heironeous (or Hextor if I decided he was LE). Neither of those have Healing as their domains and Spontaneous Domains still requires you to use domain spells within your usable domains, so unfortunately it's not really an option for this character (although certainly viable in other builds...btw did I use "domain" enough in that sentence? :p).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Ok i see where you were going with that. Well the problem with that is the cleric's deity is Heironeous (or Hextor if I decided he was LE). Neither of those have Healing as their domains and Spontaneous Domains still requires you to use domain spells within your usable domains, so unfortunately it's not really an option for this character (although certainly viable in other builds...btw did I use "domain" enough in that sentence? :p).

Fair enough. I only have a loose understanding of each deity's lore/domains, so that's fair to go that route. With your allowed resources, it's hard to mitigate the spell level increase from metamagic feats, which is bothersome for your build here.

Some means of gaining more "spontaneity" is good, though. It's a bit of a catch-22, simply because you want to be able to have X spell for Y problem, but prepared casting can be hit or miss, in terms of actual game play.

That said, you will have more than 2 domains by 12th level, so the feat is still something to consider. I like it, but it's not the end all, be all to cleric feats. Other things to consider are things like Extra Spell (if your DM let's you nab additional domain spells).

Another option is Domain Spontaneity from Complete Divine which allows you to burn turn undead attempts into additional domain spells. Again, really dependent on which domain(s) you have, but something else to consider.
Worst case scenario, sink a feat into Extra Turning. It's kind of a waste of a slot, but turn undead attempts can fuel so many different things.

[Manateee]

This build is all over the place.

Your bonus on ranged touch attacks is +17. There are only 4 pre-epic monsters in the SRD that you'd miss with a roll of 2 or more. And for those, you have plenty of no-attack-roll options. Zen Archery is a waste.

If you're using Law Devotion, a Defending weapon, a shield and Improved Combat Expertise to pump AC, something is wrong. Turtling usually means the battle is over - you've lost. You could use some of those resources to make fights winnable. You could be some of those feats to improve your casting with things like Practiced Spellcaster, Quicken, Ocular Spell, Craft Contingent Spell or Extend Spell. That would have the side effect of improving your tanking by improving your buffs, twisting the action economy and saving spell slots.

And what's with Cleric levels 5-7? Those are 3 levels of class features that could be working for you. At worst, they could be getting domains to trade in for feats.

Ditch the longsword. There are plenty of options that have higher damage, better effects or reach (which is going to help you more as a tank than AC anyway). Moving your offhand onto the weapon and away is a free action, so it won't interfere with casting.

[zeshion]

This build is all over the place.

Your bonus on ranged touch attacks is +17. There are only 4 pre-epic monsters in the SRD that you'd miss with a roll of 2 or more. And for those, you have plenty of no-attack-roll options. Zen Archery is a waste.
True, it may be a bit overkill for a normal encounter but there are quite a few things that may require me to make a higher than normal roll, not to mention I cannot always rely on the fact that I will have divine power up. It's more precautionary than anything.


If you're using Law Devotion, a Defending weapon, a shield and Improved Combat Expertise to pump AC, something is wrong. Turtling usually means the battle is over - you've lost. You could use some of those resources to make fights winnable. You could be some of those feats to improve your casting with things like Practiced Spellcaster, Quicken, Ocular Spell, Craft Contingent Spell or Extend Spell. That would have the side effect of improving your tanking by improving your buffs, twisting the action economy and saving spell slots.
You make a good point. I have been questioning the whole combat expertise thing since I first got it. I believe in the next revision I will change that out for something else (most likely one of the other options you mentioned). Thank you.


And what's with Cleric levels 5-7? Those are 3 levels of class features that could be working for you. At worst, they could be getting domains to trade in for feats.
7th level is when clerics get access to 5th level spells. We actually started the game around that level and I wanted to make sure I had divine power before taking Ordained Champion which would set me in a more melee role (not to mention I would be losing a level of spellcasting once I took the PrC). Of course, optimization-wise, I could be taking the PrC earlier and adding some stuff afterwards, you are correct.


Ditch the longsword. There are plenty of options that have higher damage, better effects or reach (which is going to help you more as a tank than AC anyway). Moving your offhand onto the weapon and away is a free action, so it won't interfere with casting.
The longsword is simply for character reasons. He is an ordained champion of Heironeous who's favored weapon is longsword. He gets a free martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus with it, so why not? True, there are certainly much better options but it was mostly for character flavor and works out just fine (not to mention it's large sized with the strongarm bracers).

[zeshion]

Alright, based upon suggestions I will obviously do away with the whole (Improved) Combat Expertise thing. I was skeptical about the idea when I set it into motion but now I am sure it will not be as useful as I once thought. I will instead replace the Improved variation with Craft Contingent Spell as I can foresee many uses for it. I would also like to include Spontaneous Domains if I should decide that one of the other feats is out of place.

NOW my current problem is what to use my extra fighter bonus feat for. O have several options:
1.) I could use it to get a great exotic weapon (which I may or may not do depending on if I decide the Longsword character flavor/free martial prof and weapon focus is necessary)
2.) Grab a feat to supplement my options in melee combat (IE requirements for other useful combat feats)
3.) The good-old Improved initiative (which I am not usually a fan of on a cleric because I prefer them going last in order to heal after the damage has been done...but this is a different sort of cleric so it is an option)

What do you think?