Understanding Starting GP beyond L1

[missmvicious]

I'm trying to use RAW here, and the DMG seems to contradict itself, so I'm getting very confused.

What are the rules for starting GP for NPCs (adventure-type and non-adventure type) at higher levels?

I'm looking at the Gear Value chart here, and I feel like the whole thing is just messed up.

For instance:
Starting Gear for L1 on DMG page 127 is 900 GP. Name a PC who gets 900 GP starting gear. Paladins and Rangers are the wealthiest starting class PCs in PHB, and they top out at 240 GP at L1.

The Aristocrat gets, max, 480 GP at L1 and he's born into money. And if L1 is that far off base, how can I feel like I'm being fair when I'm rolling up 4300 GP worth of barding and farm tools for an L5 Commoner?

Am I misreading the chart, or am I reading the wrong chart to determine gear at higher levels? At first, I thought maybe the formula was:

Average Starting Gear x Level = Gear at Level X
Example for L5 Pally: 150 x 5 = 750

, but I think that's just a house-rule someone taught me. And while that may work for someone who never goes on an adventurer (and therefore never gets any treasure), any L5 Paladin PC is going to throw a fit if I started her off with that kind of chump change.

Are there any steadfast rules for determining starting gear for NPCs above first level?

[erikun]

I don't have the book, but I think you might be mixing up the "Starting PC wealth above level 1" table with the gold packages for various pre-build NPC characters. NPCs have an approximate worth in treasure for their CR, while PCs above first level will have about what you would estimate an adventurer would have acquired by the point they hit that level.

[maysarahs]

An NPC always has enough gear to do what you want him to do, but less than you want the PC's to have if he dies in front of them (or by their hands most likely) :P

Kidding aside, since I use Pathfinder, the source I use (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/npc-classes/non-player-characters) will be from the PFsrd, however it is important to note that they shouldn't be too too different (I know PC's are given slightly more money in PF, not sure for NPC's) Do note though that it has an in-depth guide on about how much should be spent on where.

Continuing on the first statement though, I tend to build significant NPC's as if they were characters, with however much money as their background might explain for. If the son of a king is someone whom they'll be interacting with a lot, I don't feel bad giving him 75-90% of what a PC his level would have

Edit: scroll down to the gear section

[Doug Lampert]

NPC adventurers basically get gear worth 3 x Standard treasure for an encounter of their CR.

At high levels this puts them far behind a PC of the same level, but at level 1 it puts them ahead. But remember that the NPC adventurer at level 1 is NOT neccessarily a STARTING adventurer, he could be halfway through level 1 at which point his gear is roughly in line with what he "should" have.

[killem2]

if it helps you, the myth-weavers character generator includes x amount gold for gear, it works well.

[Yora]

The 900 gp are for 2nd level characters. Since the list is for characters who are not 1st level, the list starts at 2nd.

[Doug Lampert]

The 900 gp are for 2nd level characters. Since the list is for characters who are not 1st level, the list starts at 2nd.

Except that the OP is looking at the list for NPC adventurers, which DOES start at level 1. Not the WBL for PCs which is an entirely separate list in a completely different chapter.

[Coidzor]

900 gp split 4 ways and then halved because it's mostly going to be redundant and have to be sold off in order to benefit the party at all...

900/4 = 225. 225/2 = 112.5 or 112 gp and 5 sp per party member.

[Heliomance]

If memory serves, the WBL chart that you want is on page 135 of the DMG.

[Eldariel]

If memory serves, the WBL chart that you want is on page 135 of the DMG.

This is correct. There are many similar tables, the NPC table, the treasure accumulation table and all that but WBL is the barebones "if using standard amount of consumables, facing standard amount of encounters with standard treasure and using standard amount of gold on each purchase or finding standard amount of treasure, this is approximately how much gold a character of this level is expected to have". And as such, a rather suitable and logical sum for a character created on a level above 1.

[Doug Lampert]

This is correct. There are many similar tables, the NPC table, the treasure accumulation table and all that but WBL is the barebones "if using standard amount of consumables, facing standard amount of encounters with standard treasure and using standard amount of gold on each purchase or finding standard amount of treasure, this is approximately how much gold a character of this level is expected to have". And as such, a rather suitable and logical sum for a character created on a level above 1.

Except that they HAVE a table in the rules that is explicitely for NPC adventurers, and that's what the OP asked about. Why would he want to use the one for PC adventurers when there's a specific rule for his specific situation?

NPC wealth is based on the assumption that they are loot on the hoof. This means it can't be as high as PC wealth unless you're willing to have party wealth potentially double every 4 encounters if using NPC antagonists.

[SowZ]

A fifth level commoner is probably an exceptionally successful business man with skills far beyond that of his peers. He should be pretty wealthy. As far as first level NPCs with 900 gold? Yeah, that is not right...

[missmvicious]

So... hm. :smallconfused:

After comparing the chart on pg. 135 with the chart on pg. 127, I'm starting to think maybe Coidzor is right. Maybe you're supposed to take that number and divide it by the number in your party. Maybe it's not assuming starting GP, but rather how much GP they could accumulate between the time they start at L1 one and riiiiight before they get to L2.

It's a bit unbalanced, since a family of 4 Commoners is not going to acquire 900 GP before getting to L2 by tilling the land, but a group of 4 Aristocrats could scrounge up 900 GP on their first day without straining their budget.

But as far as I can tell, this seems to be RAW, and RAW is what I want. C'est la vie.

[gomanfox]

I don't think the table on p.127 is meant for NPC Classes, since it's in the section that has pre-generated NPCs that use PC classes. NPCs with PC classes are likely to have more wealth than those with NPC classes because they're probably more likely to be involved in dangerous, XP-worthy situations, like adventuring, or may have a background that provides wealth (like coming from a rich family or being employed by a noble or something). I mean, in most cases they would require training for a PC class, which would require money or involvement in an organization or something, otherwise why is that 2nd level NPC a Fighter instead of a Warrior, or a Cleric instead of an Adept?

The rules also assume that most NPCs with NPC classes rarely get above 2nd or 3rd level in their lifetime, and only really do so through self-defense, like defending a town from bandits occasionally. I think the only way the rules assumes a Commoner reaches 5th level is by throwing down his farm tools and picking up a life of adventuring, and if that's the case, 4300 gold isn't that unusual (although I'm sure most of that would come from decent equipment rather than masterwork farm tools and barding).

If your 5th level Commoner is just a typical farmer, who just has to defend his home frequently, you could probably use the starting gold for a Commoner or maybe the 2nd level gold for an NPC and it would be appropriate. I doubt they'd get much wealth out of goblin and bandit raids anyways.

[missmvicious]

Well, see that's where RAW contradicts itself.

I know that, fluff-wise, Commoners don't get higher than L2, but according to the chart "Highest Level Locals" on DMG, pg. 139, nobody has a better shot at being Epic in town than a Commoner.

At 4d4 + Community Modifier, it's technically possible to find four L28 Commoners in a Metropolis.

Even in a humble Thorp, it's possible to run across a really ripped L13 Commoner Farm Boy wrangling some cattle as the sun rises over the corn swept plains.

All by using RAW, which is why I'm curious about rules regarding GP beyond L1. I think you may be right, Gomanfox, but I don't know where else to look for GP. Is there something I'm missing, or did WoTC just not bother to put it in there because no one in their right mind would care about how much GP an L5 Commoner would have.

[Fax Celestis]

Is there something I'm missing, or did WoTC just not bother to put it in there because no one in their right mind would care about how much GP an L5 Commoner would have.

If he's a PC, he uses the PC WBL table. If he's an NPC, he uses the NPC WBL table.

[Greenish]

It's a bit unbalanced, since a family of 4 Commoners is not going to acquire 900 GP before getting to L2 by tilling the land, but a group of 4 Aristocrats could scrounge up 900 GP on their first day without straining their budget.NPC classes aren't supposed to be balanced with each other. Or didn't you notice that commoner is a lot worse of than any other NPC class even before wealth is measured in? :smallamused:


Anyway, Aristocrats have lots of money, since they're by and large born wealthy into wealthy families.

[Siosilvar]

NPCs (especially those with PC classes) use the table on page 127. Yes, it starts at 900gp of gear for 1st level. Feel free to change that; they're NPCs, after all. If it doesn't make sense for a 5th level commoner to have 4300gp including their house and land (if they own any), then they don't.

PCs above 1st level start with the table on page 135 and should stay relatively close to the numbers on that table at each level if you expect them to be able to handle level-appropriate challenges.

[missmvicious]

NPC classes aren't supposed to be balanced with each other. Or didn't you notice that commoner is a lot worse of than any other NPC class even before wealth is measured in? :smallamused:


Anyway, Aristocrats have lots of money, since they're by and large born wealthy into wealthy families.

That was my point. The fixed GP system had me perplexed because of that. But the general consensus is that the chart I was looking at was, indeed, the correct chart, so that's what I'm going to use.

Thanks for everyone's help sorting through my confusion!