Have you ever played an RPG which you liked all the way through?

[danzibr]

I've played quite a few RPGs, and I can't say that I have. I would say FFVII is my favorite RPG ever, yet I really dislike the place before the crater, the snowy place. Or BoFIII, another great game, hated the lighthouse. I'm currently playing Earthbound again... nothing sticks out in my memory, but I'm sure there's something I dislike. And in FFI, a few of the dungeons (Lich's dungeon comes to mind). In XenoGears, most of disc 2. In Disgaea 3 (an SRPG, but still counts), going into Mao's heart. In Disgaea 4, some of the mid game. Yeah, can't think of one.

[sucatraps]

Playing through Final Fantasy 5, the only part I can remember disliking was at one particular point not knowing where to go. It wasn't major, as there was only really one path available anyway and only wasted maybe 10 minutes of my time wandering around trying to find it. Apart from that I have really no big complaints.

Oh, and Disgaea. Grinding isn't my favourite thing in the world, but just running through the item world on the bus to school was entertaining, and let me access the postgame. Getting to the postgame as a goal instead of a time waster would annoy me, though.

[LansXero]

Tactics Ogre. If anything it seems too short :(

[Vitruviansquid]

I find myself being addicted to epic RPG's when I'm first starting out, but having to force myself to finish them by the end, when I've already mastered the system or found the trick to win all fights.

The stories alone aren't enough to get me through most RPG's. :(

(Though I did finish The Witcher relatively recently)

[Zevox]

Depends. Do you mean one where I don't have any significant criticisms of the game at all, or that there was no stage of the gameplay or aspect of the story that I especially disliked?

If the former, probably not. Even for Persona 3 and 4, my favorite games ever, I really wish that persona skill inheritance worked differently so I never had to spend time waiting for the randomizer to give me the skills I want on a new persona.

If the latter, sure. Persona 3 and 4; Tales of the Abyss, Vesperia, and Symphonia; Dragon Quest 8; Paper Mario 1 and 2; Knights of the Old Republic; Radiant Historia; Chrono Trigger; Devil Survivor. Probably others, I can only list off so many just off the top of my head.

Zevox

[danzibr]

Well, I was thinking a particular part of the game/zone. Like you're playing along and then you're like, "Oh God, not this place again." Then you force yourself through for more good times.

I do agree that there are likely no games which have absolutely no room for improvement. I'd have to think long and hard about an RPG which has no crappy parts for me. Maybe River City Ransom, but that's... not really an RPG.

[Fargazer]

Like in the original KotOR, the underwater part at Manaan.

Never again.

[Zevox]

Well, I was thinking a particular part of the game/zone. Like you're playing along and then you're like, "Oh God, not this place again." Then you force yourself through for more good times.
Then yeah, plenty. Likely those that don't have a section like that outnumber those that do for me.

Zevox

[Knaight]

I'd put both Baiten Kaitos and Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World in that category.

[factotum]

Most RPGs I've finished have been fine all the way through, simply because if I find I'm having to force myself to continue, I stop playing and find a better game--it's supposed to be fun to play these things, right? Having said that, the last RPG I can remember quitting was Oblivion, simply because the ridiculous way they implemented level scaling killed my immersion stone dead. (Skyrim does a much better job of this, incidentally, which is why I finished that one!).

[Avilan the Grey]

I rant a lot, but yes:

Baldur's Gate
Baldur's Gate II
Planescape Torment
Dragon Age Origins*
Mass Effect**
Mass Effect 2
Fallout 3
Fallout: New Vegas
Skyrim (so far)

Hmm, seems I am very limited in my choice of companies... All are Bethesda or Bioware...

*I admit I have modded away the long Fade mission, but that is because of lazyness more than frustration; I found it Good Enough when I played the game the first time. I did the same thing with Baldur's Gate 2 (the "Dungeon Be Gone" mod that let's you skip the beginner tutorial dungeon).

**The main questline was very entertaining all the way through. Some of the side missions and random planets were bad, but that does not count, to me, since those are optional and I could have abandoned those missions without repercussions.

[Hunter Noventa]

I've finished most of the RPGs I won, and most of the ones I don't finish because of something just making me go 'ugh' I usually trade in.

The only one i can think of that I still own and haven't finished is Star Ocean 3, mostly because I got past the horrific plot twist, and hit a wall on some ridiculous boss with a rocket launcher and I just stopped caring.

[Xapi]

Planescape: Torment is undoubtedly an incredible and amazing game from start to finish, I absolutely loved it.

I reccomend it to anyone who likes RPGs and hasn't played it yet as a true masterpiece.

[danzibr]

Ooh yeah, those are some good points. Planescape: Torment is awesome. At the moment I can't think of any zones I dislike (though I didn't like certain aspects about the ending).

[Zen Monkey]

Planescape: Torment may be my favorite game, but the modron dungeon gets pretty dull after a while. Fortunately, it's completely optional.

[H. Zee]

Ooh yeah, those are some good points. Planescape: Torment is awesome. At the moment I can't think of any zones I dislike (though I didn't like certain aspects about the ending).

What aspects? Put it in spoilers obviously. I'm intrigued as I thought it was the best ending of any game I've played, especially if you do it the 'right' way.

i.e. Find out your true name and resurrect your companions.

[danzibr]

What aspects? Put it in spoilers obviously. I'm intrigued as I thought it was the best ending of any game I've played, especially if you do it the 'right' way.

i.e. Find out your true name and resurrect your companions.
IIRC the fact that there's no big battle using your entire party. Also, that Ignus leaves you no matter what. I mean, the good ending, the one you mentioned, is cool and all, but I was hoping for a big battle.

Okay, so I just went to gamefaqs and reread the different endings. I forgot about being able to rez a single companion and fight. Still... yeah, I like big battles.

[Dr.Epic]

Super Mario RPG:smallwink:

[SlyGuyMcFly]

TWEWY. Every yocto-second of it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If you remove the Mako*, Mass Effect 1 is this so far, although I'll admit I'm not finished with it yet.

FFVI fulfills this criteria for me though...I loved that entire game.


*Whoever designed the Mako needs to be shot. The thing handles like I stuck a steering wheel on the horn of a sex-crazed rhinoceros, stuck rollerstakes on the thing, and then tried to drive it on a planet made entirely of moonbounce material.

[Forbiddenwar]

No Love for Dues Ex? Or is that just a given.:smallsmile:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

No Love for Dues Ex? Or is that just a given.:smallsmile:

Just a given, boss. Just a given. I tend to forget it's an RPG and not just a "this game is just what I wanted at every moment in time" simulator. :smallbiggrin:

Although a very large number of people hated the Statue of Liberty levels...

[SlyGuyMcFly]

No Love for Dues Ex? Or is that just a given.:smallsmile:

It's a given, natch. :smallbiggrin:

[Triaxx]

Deus Ex and Final Fantasy IX. Seriously.

I'd love to recommend Skyrim, but going on the 'main' storyline, the options just aren't too my liking. If I go Stormcloak, I screw Jarl Balgruuf. I LIKE Jarl Balgruuf. If I don't do either, I run the risk of screwing Jarl Laila. And I LIKE Jarl Laila.

Plus the mission is stupid. I'd much prefer to have Tuillius and Ulfric out side and then Fus Ro Dah them both off the side of the mountain.

Oh, and Baldur's Gate 2. And Final Fantasy Tactics.

[H. Zee]

IIRC the fact that there's no big battle using your entire party. Also, that Ignus leaves you no matter what. I mean, the good ending, the one you mentioned, is cool and all, but I was hoping for a big battle.

Okay, so I just went to gamefaqs and reread the different endings. I forgot about being able to rez a single companion and fight. Still... yeah, I like big battles.

Fair enough! That wasn't really a factor for me, I guess - I like the talky-talky.

Also:

Ignus doesn't always leave you. If you play as an evil character, then it's Vhailor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlFc2TuA_FA) who will defect in order to bring you down.

EDIT: Oh, and on-topic, I consider Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate, and Baldur's Gate II plus expansion to be the closest to RPG perfection I've ever seen.

[Starwulf]

Just a given, boss. Just a given. I tend to forget it's an RPG and not just a "this game is just what I wanted at every moment in time" simulator. :smallbiggrin:

Although a very large number of people hated the Statue of Liberty levels...

Personally, if I had to pick out one part of Deus Ex that I didn't enjoy as much as the rest, I'd have to go with the Chinatown bit. I will say that I still enjoyed them, just not quite as much as the rest of the game. But yeah, Deus Ex is a given.

I'd have to say, that I actually tend to have more games with certain parts that I anxiously anticipate rather then anxiously dread. Notables for me: Secret of Mana and the Winter forest spot(love that area and it's music), Dragon Warrior IV and the third chapter with the Merchant(god I loved setting up shop and making tons of money that way. more often than not I'd do that chapter through mercantilism instead of going out and fighting enemies for the 7 Broadswords), Final Fantasy 3(VI) and the moment I acquire Shadowy permanently, FFXII and the moment I can start REALLY start hunting Marks and not be held back to much by geographic location access, and, well, I could go on and on, but this post would get waaay to long.

I will say though, that no game is perfect, and I can't think of any game that doesn't have one small quirk it couldn't do without. But I would never say a game wasn't great the whole way through just because of one small quirk.

Games that DID have parts that I dread: Neverwinter Nights and the first half of the 2nd Chapter. I always felt like that part of the game dragged on, and it killed more playthroughs of the game then any other spot. I loved the 2nd half though, and going through Luskan. Chrono Trigger and the prehistoric past. Couldn't stand the land of the dinosaurs for whatever reason. Hmm, kinda hitting a roadblock in my head, can't really think of any others, though I'm sure there are a few more.

[Pronounceable]

Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, Fallout, Jade Empire. That was easy.

Wait, can I count Arkham City as RPG? It has leveling and I can squint and look at it on a fogged mirror, or something...

Since it was so easy, I'll list stuff that eliminates other RPGs from this list:
Alpha Protocol: Gameplay. A damn shame too seeing it blows every single thing except Torment out of water in execution of plot.
Arcanum: Black Mountain Mines.
Baldur's Gate: Respawns on reload, various underground mazes.
Fallout 2: Too much sillyness.
Fallout 3: It does not exist.
Icewind Dale: Too much combat.
NWN: Campaign.
NWN2: I'm certain there'll be something if I ever get around to playing it.
KotoR: Shameless ripoff of original trilogy.
KotoR 2: Lack of ending.
Mass Effect: Mako, sidequesting, ENEMIES EVERYWHERE.
Mass Effect 2: Plot, Jack, Miranda's ass.
Dragon Age: Hype, VA of Jowan, bland mcgenericness.
Dragon Age 2: Plot "twists".
Vampire Bloodlines: Nosferatu tunnels.
Any number of ES or MM games: A game with huge open world combining first person perspective is an instant fail. One or the other is fine, both is an insufferable chore.
Any jRPG: Random encounters, anime style.
Temple of Elemental Evil: It's not a game.
Lionheart: Degenerative Diablo Cloning Disease.
Deus Ex: I should play that.

[Weezer]

IIRC the fact that there's no big battle using your entire party. Also, that Ignus leaves you no matter what. I mean, the good ending, the one you mentioned, is cool and all, but I was hoping for a big battle.

Okay, so I just went to gamefaqs and reread the different endings. I forgot about being able to rez a single companion and fight. Still... yeah, I like big battles.

I actually wasn't disappointed by the lack of a climactic final battle. Planescape: Torment was never about fighting, that always took a back seat to the dialogue and RP so it made sense to me that the climax would focus on parts of the game that made Planescape Planescape in the first place. If there was a climactic battle it would just feel out of place in the context of the rest of the game.

[Mewtarthio]

Any jRPG: Random encounters, anime style.

What about Chrono Trigger? No random encounters: With the exception of the randomly-spawning Nu in one sidequest, all encounters are fixed, and the art style isn't particularly animesque unless you turn on the optional videos (and why you would turn those on is beyond me). If you want to go more modern, FF XIII has Chrono Trigger-esque fixed encounters plus full heals after every battle, thus removing the "worn down by numerous weak enemies" feel you get from random encounters (plus the art style is realistic). Granted, FF XIII is somewhat... controversial.

(For the topic at hand: I would indeed add Chrono Trigger to the list. I actually liked FF XIII, but it doesn't go on there on account of that airship level. Way too high encounter density).

[warty goblin]

Due to the fact that most RPGs seem a bit foggy on the notion of conciseness or editing in general, odds are any RPG (even one I really like) will bore me way before I get to the end. The only question is whether I like it enough to pick it back up later, after I get tired of fighting the same three damn fights over and over again so I can inch higher on the leveling bar.

[danzibr]

I actually wasn't disappointed by the lack of a climactic final battle. Planescape: Torment was never about fighting, that always took a back seat to the dialogue and RP so it made sense to me that the climax would focus on parts of the game that made Planescape Planescape in the first place. If there was a climactic battle it would just feel out of place in the context of the rest of the game.
Oh don't get me wrong I LOVE the possibility of beating the game without having to do any sort of combat, but I would have liked the possibility of a gigantic end battle (actually, that there are so many ways to beat/end the game is really cool to me). In fact, out of the Baldur's Gate games and Planescape: Torment, I prefer the latter. Not in terms of mechanics (I didn't like the spells or certain other aspects), but... Planescape: Torment is just so awesome.

[Hida Reju]

Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday (Genesis) one of the most fun games I ever played.

Technically I call Starflight an RPG. (I played on Genesis)

Phantasy Star 3 and 4 (Genesis)

Skies of Arcadia (Dreamcast)

Grandia 2 (Dreamcast)

Willow (Nintendo)

[factotum]

I'd love to recommend Skyrim, but going on the 'main' storyline, the options just aren't too my liking. If I go Stormcloak, I screw Jarl Balgruuf. I LIKE Jarl Balgruuf. If I don't do either, I run the risk of screwing Jarl Laila. And I LIKE Jarl Laila.


Eh? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't HAVE to come down on either the Imperial or Stormcloak side in order to progress the main plot:


So long as you haven't irritated the Greybeards, they'll hold a peace conference where you can get a cease-fire negotiated--that'll be enough for Jarl Balgruuf to allow you to capture the dragon.

[danzibr]

Phantasy Star 3 and 4 (Genesis)

Willow (Nintendo)
Interesting choices. I think Phantasy Star 4 might work for me. I've played that game so many times... every part is great. Wait, actually, I didn't like the dungeon past the living trees. Still, pretty close. Phantasy Star 3 is also great, but I found quite a few of the dungeons too long/boring for me. I like the generation system though.

I never beat Willow. Something about you have to be a certain level at some point and I never got that high. Also, back then I didn't have the patience to grind. Maybe I'll go back to it.

[endoperez]

Oh don't get me wrong I LOVE the possibility of beating the game without having to do any sort of combat, but I would have liked the possibility of a gigantic end battle (actually, that there are so many ways to beat/end the game is really cool to me). In fact, out of the Baldur's Gate games and Planescape: Torment, I prefer the latter. Not in terms of mechanics (I didn't like the spells or certain other aspects), but... Planescape: Torment is just so awesome.

I thought Planescape: Torment allowed you to


Resurrect ALL of your dead party members, once, if your stats were high enough. Before the final battle, I mean. And a quick google search seems to support this.

[Winter_Wolf]

I've finished several RPGs that I've started, and enjoyed every minute of them:
Phantasy Star II, III (all 4 endings), IV, and Phantasy Star Portable 2 (twice);
Lunar: Silver Star;
Lunar 2;
PSP remake of Lunar-> Lunar Silver Star Harmony;
Shining the Holy Ark;
Shining Force CD;
Vay;

Of PC RPGs I've only ever finished NWN1 Hordes of the Underdark, Kingmaker, and a few of the modules on VaultNetwork, but see below regarding Hell.

Never finished NWN1 OC or Shadows of Undrentide, none of the NWN2 stuff, Planescape, or Icewind Dale 2, Pool of Radiance, *any* of the SSI gold-box games, or Baldur's Gate II. Honestly I'm really starting to think I don't like D&D as much as I thought I did. Or maybe it's just that I don't like D&D without the table top. About the time I'm forced to take a tour of Hell, I'm done being impressed and more than willing to read a walkthrough instead of finishing it out. Of all those games, only in PS:T does Hell even really seems thematically appropriate, and I didn't even make it that far. So much potential, and just so hard to care after a while.

[Luzahn]

I was trying to recall a bad spot in Dragon Age Origins, and couldnt. Until I remembered the Fade. After the first run, that place is a headache inducing nightmare.

For Dragon Age 2, i'd have to say Kirkwall is pretty awful to play through.

[LibraryOgre]

I was trying to recall a bad spot in Dragon Age Origins, and couldnt. Until I remembered the Fade. After the first run, that place is a headache inducing nightmare.

Whereas I've simply given up on it. I don't like the mechanics, and the story line isn't engaging to me at all. I don't think I've played in three months.

Now, the ones that I really like are the Quest for Glory series, though 3 had a bit of a "wander" problem (i.e. "WTF am I doing now?") and 4 had some technical issues.

[Reynard]

Skies of Arcadia is pretty amazing, if you ask me. I loved that game so much, even if it was slightly cliched and occasionally you could see some plot points coming a mile off.

Gilder was awesome, and getting to set up your own base was just an added cool factor.

[Triaxx]

Sadly the peace conference causes you to drop on one side or the other, and there's no middle ground. You end up P/Oing one side in favor of the other. And it's so stupid...

The annoying little girls can't stop for ten minutes and let me deal with the dragon. Morons.

[Tengu_temp]

Chrono Trigger, TWEWY. Everything else - any Final Fantasy, Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape Torment, all Fallouts, Deus Ex (which is not an RPG), Persona 3&4, you name it - had at least one annoying part, if not several.

[Mx.Silver]

Planescape: Torment - obviously
VTM:Bloodlines - I can understand why some people might not like certain levels but honestly a lot of that comes down to your character build.
Shadow Hearts & Shadow Hearts 2 - Not the third one though. Very definitely not the third one.
Resonence of Fate - Mostly on account of the combat system, which is good since plot isn't a big concern.
Jade Empire - The only real annoyance I had with that was the Pit of Pain fight, which to be honest isn't enough to constitute a level.

The ones that didn't quite make it:
Baldur's Gate: The Thieves Guild Labyrinth, Firewine Ruins and very, very much Durlag's Tower.
Baldur's Gate 2: The Underdark.
Dragon Age 2: Gets a bit repetitive after a while.
Fallout: The Glow is rather tedius. Trying to alter your travelling companions equipment is an exercise in annoyance.
Fallout 2: Temple of Trials. Enough said.
The Witcher: The Marshes get a bit tedius, as do the earlier parts of Visima. The casual misogyny and terrible English voice acting doesn't help matters either.

[Jothki]

I thought Planescape: Torment allowed you to


Resurrect ALL of your dead party members, once, if your stats were high enough. Before the final battle, I mean. And a quick google search seems to support this.

I can confirm this. If you mention that you released all of the shades, he'll leave for a bit and you get to resurrect your entire team.

[Drascin]

I was trying to recall a bad spot in Dragon Age Origins, and couldnt. Until I remembered the Fade. After the first run, that place is a headache inducing nightmare.


My giving up point was the dwarven tunnels. There is a hell for RPG players, and it's about east of Orzammar.

[Zevox]

My giving up point was the dwarven tunnels. There is a hell for RPG players, and it's about east of Orzammar.
Yeah, I wouldn't put it that strongly, but that's my general inclination as well. On the second play-through and beyond the Deep Roads just get extremely tedious in that game. On the flip side, I actually liked the Fade - it's not too long, and the shape-shifting mechanic you get during it is pretty fun to use.

Zevox

[Remmirath]

I don't think there have been any RPGs I played which didn't have at least one or two low spots. Now, some of them I have enjoyed all the way through regardless - if I like my character and all - but there are still low spots. Generally speaking, the Baldur's Gate games, Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale come the closest for me.

Baldur's Gate +TotSC - The Nashkel Mines. Which, incidentally, is where I am at the moment. Also the Cloakwood. I still usually have some fun in those areas, just not as much.
Baldur's Gate II + ToB - Irenicus' dungeon. The sahuagin area. Saradush. Still have some fun in those areas, just not as much.
Icewind Dale + HoW + TotLM - Kuldahar itself, and the place with all the ettins. Still have some fun in those areas, just not as much.
Icewind Dale II - Kuldahar again. I really don't like Kuldahar. Also, Targos. And the area around Targos with the orcs. And a few others things.
Knights of the Old Republic - Taris. Also Dantooine, and any time the Selkath speak.
Knights of the Old Republic II - Telos. Also most of Onderon, I believe. Been a while since I've played it.
Dragon Age: Origins + Awakening - The first marsh. Redcliff. A goodly chunk of the Brecilian Forest. The forest section in Awakening.
Mass Effect - The first world. Some other stuff I can't remember specifically, because I've only played it once - but I remember there were other things.
Mass Effect 2 - Honestly, so far, everything. I'm hoping it'll look up eventually. Gameplay's a drag.
Dragon Age 2 - All of the various missions out to the same bloody strip of land. And the beginning part. And most especially the very beginning part. Gameplay's a drag.
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura - Nothing that you have to do in particular, except that the long travel distances can result in a fair amount of boredom. And since you have to travel...
Planescape Torment - This actually has the least of them. Maybe none, although I wasn't real fond of the trash warrens.
Fallout - I'm hoping I just haven't got through the first boring part yet.
Morrowind + TB + BM - Nothing that you need to do, but for some reason I find some cities tiresome every time I show up in them (Balmora, for instance). Well, actually, I do find Bloodmoon a bit more dull, particularly the beginning Imperial quests.
Oblivion + SI + KotN - Honestly, most things except the Dark Brotherhood quests. And some parts of the main quest.
Skyrim - Nothing that you have to do comes to mind, except for a couple escort quests which I always find a bit dull.
Neverwinter Nights: In the main campaign, everything. Expansions were better.
Neverwinter Nights 2: Same deal, mostly. Expansions were better.

[warty goblin]

Chrono Trigger, TWEWY. Everything else - any Final Fantasy, Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape Torment, all Fallouts, Deus Ex (which is not an RPG), Persona 3&4, you name it - had at least one annoying part, if not several.

I'd have to agree, if not in specific games, at least in general. Most of this I attribute to length - RPGs tend to be loooong. The odds of a fairly lengthy section that's less than fun creeping in there just ends up being fairly high. In a ten hour FPS a single bad level is probably going to last about forty minutes, in a 40 hour RPG that boring bit is gonna drag on for a couple hours in all likelihood.

The other drag I find is repetition. There are very few games that I find manage to have interesting mechanics after twenty or more hours. Once the mechanics become old hat any dip in quality in the level and encounter design, writing, or pretty much anything else becomes that much more noticeable and aggravating.

Which is really a way of saying I wish the occasional RPG would aim for having a consistently great 20 hour playtime instead of a decent but somewhat tedious forty hour plus one. I get that some people really like games that long and occasionally I do to. However sometimes it'd be nice to get an RPG sort of game that actually stays focused on moving forwards. If that means axing the traditional retrieve the ancestral armor, find out what happened to the sibling, and collect ingredients so the craftsmen can make you a mostly useless item quests, so much the better.

[danzibr]

I can confirm this. If you mention that you released all of the shades, he'll leave for a bit and you get to resurrect your entire team.
Oh, well then. I guess I'm just a noob. I was only ever able to get 1.

[Eakin]

Final Fantasy 4... The cave with all the door monsters. The one that ends with the demon wall boss. Frustrated me to no end the first time I played it.

It's sad that RPG developers feel like they need to pad out their 25 hour games to 40 or more because some people measure value in total hours of game play. For me, my time is limited and hours until completion is part of the cost I'm paying to experience whatever the designers can throw at me. I'd rather blow through a 10 hour game that provides a phenomenal experience like a Portal or Metroid, then trudge through 15 mediocre hours and 5 good ones because the developer didn't think I'd get my money's worth otherwise.

[factotum]

However sometimes it'd be nice to get an RPG sort of game that actually stays focused on moving forwards.

Bastion. Get it, play it. It's only about 6-7 hours long, and it certainly doesn't dawdle around during that time!

[Triscuitable]

Deus Ex 3. The boss battles never happened.

Fallout 3 was fantastic. People say "but New Vegas is BETTER"! In gameplay terms, yes, it is. In story? No. It's a cliché revenge story that doesn't hold up in repeated playthroughs. Fallout 3 is intense the whole way through. My only complaint is the goddamned metro station between GNR and DC Plaza. That is IT.

Borderlands. Co-op, good gunplay, awesome expansions. 'Twas my GOTY in 2009.

[Ogremindes]

It's a cliché revenge story that doesn't hold up in repeated playthroughs.

Really? I thought the story was about a war between two great powers and the people caught in the middle.

[Triscuitable]

Really? I thought the story was about a war between two great powers and the people caught in the middle.

You get tangled up in that. How do they do that? "Any crimes against the Legion/NCR are now forgiven." What a sloppy way to give you an OBVIOUS choice. It's really poorly done. Fallout 3 didn't pull that. It was "here's a nuke. Want to disarm it? Or detonate it?" You have time, but you decide if it's worth it. Plus, you're not forgiven. Neil Patrick Harris chastises you if you blow it up.

[VanBuren]

You get tangled up in that. How do they do that? "Any crimes against the Legion/NCR are now forgiven." What a sloppy way to give you an OBVIOUS choice. It's really poorly done. Fallout 3 didn't pull that. It was "here's a nuke. Want to disarm it? Or detonate it?" You have time, but you decide if it's worth it. Plus, you're not forgiven. Neil Patrick Harris chastises you if you blow it up.

Wait, what? I know Liam Neeson chastises you, but I don't remember NPH being in the game.

[Triscuitable]

Wait, what? I know Liam Neeson chastises you, but I don't remember NPH being in the game.

I tend to get the two mixed up. But how cool would that be? How awesome would it be if HOUSE was your dad? Best Fallout ever.

[VanBuren]

I tend to get the two mixed up. But how cool would that be? How awesome would it be if HOUSE was your dad? Best Fallout ever.

Wait, are we talking about Hugh Laurie now?

[Gaius Marius]

In my recent playthrough, I never really got annoyed at either the Deep Roads or the Fade. Both were simple ennough if you knew what to do, where to go.

I hate, hate, hate Bracilian Forest. It's a stupid useless maze.

[Aotrs Commander]

Planescape: Torment is undoubtedly an incredible and amazing game from start to finish, I absolutely loved it.

I reccomend it to anyone who likes RPGs and hasn't played it yet as a true masterpiece.

This, I think, as the man says.

Bioware's other RPG also rank very high (though there were a few niggles like combats I had to refight several times in JE because I suck (also I had to go through the third act like three times because I missed one romance conversation...), the wosit-it-called-dwarf-tunnel-place in DA:O, with all the Dark spawn, the name of which escapes me at the moment (edit: Deep Roads, as the poster abobe just reminded me), which I felt dragged a bit, and some of the exploration in ME 1 and the dreadful planetscanning in ME 2.)

Most of the other RPGs I tend to find at some point there comes a stage where you end up doing some fairly uninteresting grinding (yes, even in Pokemon), though I'll admit most of that is self-inflicted, since I must complete every part of every game (or at least as much as possible in one pass through). Persona 3 has been great (I'm maybe half-way through) but the near-exact step-by-step time guide to get everything is rather unforgiving of mistakes (and I think I've made two so far...)

Witcher doesn't have grinding as such, but the trekking around the Swamp in act 3 and 4 and splifflicating drowners and such gets a bit old after a while (esepcially since they become worth a pitance XP).

But it's not really enough to put me off.

Though my ratio of completed to in-progress JRPG is rather weighed in favour to the latter...!


Edit: So yeah, pretty much what everyone else said!

[Cespenar]

Planescape, BG2, Fallout 1-2, most (if not all) Bioware RPGs, Deus Ex, The Witcher 2. Heroes 4. Morrowind. Fallout: New Vegas.

[Morty]

In my case, the "oh God, not this again" period tends to be the endgame. It's not universal, of course, but RPGs show a disturbing tendency to turn into a boring slugfest against powerful enemies at the end, with little in the way of dialogue or choices. Naturally, other parts of the game can also be annoying, such as the Deep Roads in Dragon Age or Manaan in KoToR 1.
It doesn't necessarily spoil my enjoyment of the game, but it tends to sour it somewhat.

[Bastian Weaver]

Quest for Glory. All five of them.

[Gaius Marius]

Quest for Glory. All five of them.

You know, I hated Quest For Glory. The 1st.

I didn't put myself through all 5th of them! You are insane. Or a masochist. :smallamused:

[Triscuitable]

Wait, are we talking about Hugh Laurie now?

(Knows House is not played by Liam Neeson)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Persona 3, Baldur's Gate 2 and, honestly, Final Fantasy 8.

For me the least enjoyable was Dragon Age Origins. I never actually finished the game; I got to the final boss battle, had the dragon down to 33% or so HP, turned the game off and never played it again. The four basic quests were all fun enough I thought, minus the dreadful cliches that tend to creep in, but everything from the Landsmeet onward was terrible. Interparty conflict is one of my least-favorite mechanics in games since it's handled badly in virtually every game.

[Yora]

I'd say Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, KotOR, and Mass Effect 2 all don't really have significant parts that make me think, let's be done with that quickly.

Strangely, the only thing I am not too fond of in Final Fantasy X is the Blizball game, but you can lose it and still continue.

Dragon Age is great, except for the main quest. That one is just boring and forgetable.
The Problem with DA2 is that it only has the difficulties Very Easy, Easy, Very Hard, and Ultra Hard. A regular Hard or at least good Normal would have been nice. The way it is, I am really cutting my teeth on it.

[Sleverin]

Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy Tactics, Radiant Historia. Those are four I can think of off the top of my head. I really loved both Chrono games and am always hoping for more, though in its current state I'm not sure I'd want Square Enix making the games, seeing as how they just can't make anything decent anymore. Final Fantasy Tactics was just an amazing game, with an immensely complex and dark storyline, fun and insane character customization, and it actually made grinding fun (yes, fun, you heard me!). Sure, there was the one boss fight that was epically broken, but that's a speed bump, and honestly, the insanely awesome plot twist involving Ramza's dad and brothers will always stick in my mind as quite amazing.

Radiant Historia is another great game done by the wizards over at Atlus who made the brilliant and powerful Persona 3, which I loved, but I did stop playing it out of frustration at one point. I love Historia's storytelling, characterization, immensely fun battle system, and of course, the time traveling dimension hopping game mechanic. Sure, there were some cliches along the way, but they were heavily outweighed by covering most if not all plot holes, and having some incredible twists in the end.

Oh, also, Breath of Fire IV. The only part I didn't like were the plains that you have to cross and they're confusing as hell when you're 13 and don't have gamefaqs. That is a minor gripe though. The graphics are great (I love hand drawn stuff), the music is fantastic and I loved how dark the game was. Truly one of the more sinister games I played that wasn't trying to do so out of shock value or using violence or gore as a means of being dark, but using the evils of selfishness, greed, and lust for power.

And I could go on and on about Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, but if I did this might turn into a "tl;dr" sort of post so maybe I'll save it for a different post.

[Triscuitable]

Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Final Fantasy Tactics, Radiant Historia. Those are four I can think of off the top of my head. I really loved both Chrono games and am always hoping for more, though in its current state I'm not sure I'd want Square Enix making the games, seeing as how they just can't make anything decent anymore. Final Fantasy Tactics was just an amazing game, with an immensely complex and dark storyline, fun and insane character customization, and it actually made grinding fun (yes, fun, you heard me!). Sure, there was the one boss fight that was epically broken, but that's a speed bump, and honestly, the insanely awesome plot twist involving Ramza's dad and brothers will always stick in my mind as quite amazing.

Oh, how in the HELL did I forget Chrono Trigger? I am shame.

[danzibr]

Ahh the Chrono games.

For Chorno Trigger... maybe. I didn't like the time between Chrono dying and getting him back.

For Chrono Cross, I didn't like it when Serge lost his body and, of course, you have to get it back. Actually, I had to start Chrono Cross three times because I got bored pretty soon into it. But after forcing myself a bit it got better.

[Triscuitable]

Ahh the Chrono games.

For Chorno Trigger... maybe. I didn't like the time between Chrono dying and getting him back.

I ran Chrono, Ayla, and Frog (Thunder Chomp and Slurp Kiss is undeniably the best combo of dual techs in the game), and let me tell you, "NO! Rhys no die! Rhys strong!" was SO weird to me, that I just saved immediately after, and stopped playing for the day.

I bought the iOS port recently, lost myself in the game again. Stuck on Black Tyranno (okay, not stuck, just bored) in my second New Game+.

[Mando Knight]

Plus, you're not forgiven. Neil Patrick Harris chastises you if you blow it up.

Wait, what? I know Liam Neeson chastises you, but I don't remember NPH being in the game.

I tend to get the two mixed up. But how cool would that be? How awesome would it be if HOUSE was your dad? Best Fallout ever.

Wait, are we talking about Hugh Laurie now?

(Knows House is not played by Liam Neeson)

I laughed.

NPH (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000439/) is Dr. Horrible (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcHtGUI15as) and the Music Meister (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_q1SdaWLlw). Liam Neeson (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000553/) is Qui-Gon Jinn and Ra's al-Ghul (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372784/) (and the Wanderer's dad). Hugh Laurie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0491402/) is Dr. House (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0412142/) and Jasper (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115433/).

Anyway, back to the topic.

I loved Dragon Quest IX pretty much all the way through. Up until the post-post-game, where you get stuck trying to get 110% completion.

[AtwasAwamps]

Honestly? The only one I ever liked all the way through, including sidequests, etc., was Final Fantasy Tactics.

All of the other Final Fantasy games I've ever played have had at least one dungeon that made me groan (though on occasion that was entire game...I'm looking at you, Final Fantasy's 10 through 13).

Chrono Trigger...Secret of Mana...Dragon Age...Skyrim...all of these games had moments that I just absolutely loathed or that made me just put down my controller and wave the games away out of irritation.

[TSED]

Fallout 3 was fantastic. People say "but New Vegas is BETTER"! In gameplay terms, yes, it is. In story? No. It's a cliché revenge story that doesn't hold up in repeated playthroughs. Fallout 3 is intense the whole way through. My only complaint is the goddamned metro station between GNR and DC Plaza. That is IT.


WHAT. WHAT IS THIS. I DON'T EVEN.

Ok, let's get this straight. The video game where characters act like complete idiots ALL THE TIME, make pointless sacrifices for no reason, and railroad you into changing who your character is MULTIPLE TIMES DURING THE MAIN PLOT is the "better game" on story?

NO. YOU'RE WRONG.

Sorry to shout like this, but seriously. Why does your dad kill himself in FO3? To prevent some guys from fixing a machine that he was trying to fix. And oh yeah he doesn't really prevent them anyway? And the Enclave is all "you know what, you should let us irradiate this water and kill all of the non-vault dwellers! ALL OF THEM! That'd be totally cool" and your character completely ignores the whole "you're not from the vault after all" thing that s/he uncovered in blindingly obvious history lessons. And let's not forget "You're not a mercenary."

Seriously, FO3 and Oblivion have the two worst stories I've ever played in a video game. The fact that you said FO3's story is better than New Vegas' actually offends me because NV's story was actually really good. It's not a revenge story at all - it can be, but the whole revenge thing is actually just a plot device to get the character stuck between the civilizations pushing against each other. The whole thing's great social commentary. Compare that to what FO3 says: "durrrrr, warter is gurd?"

[Triscuitable]

WHAT. WHAT IS THIS. I DON'T EVEN.

Ok, let's get this straight. The video game where characters act like complete idiots ALL THE TIME, make pointless sacrifices for no reason, and railroad you into changing who your character is MULTIPLE TIMES DURING THE MAIN PLOT is the "better game" on story?

NO. YOU'RE WRONG.

Whoa, harsh!


Sorry to shout like this, but seriously. Why does your dad kill himself in FO3?

To stop the Enclave from being able to control the entire water supply of the Capital Wasteland.

And oh yeah he doesn't really prevent them anyway?


And the Enclave is all "you know what, you should let us irradiate this water and kill all of the non-vault dwellers! ALL OF THEM! That'd be totally cool" and your character completely ignores the whole "you're not from the vault after all" thing that s/he uncovered in blindingly obvious history lessons. And let's not forget "You're not a mercenary."

The Enclave consists only of descendants of political authorities and Vault-Tec employees who survived the Great War through the a massive vault built specifically to suit them.


Seriously, FO3 and Oblivion have the two worst stories I've ever played in a video game.

Only one man's opinion. And it's not mine.


The fact that you said FO3's story is better than New Vegas' actually offends me because NV's story was actually really good. It's not a revenge story at all - it can be, but the whole revenge thing is actually just a plot device to get the character stuck between the civilizations pushing against each other. The whole thing's great social commentary. Compare that to what FO3 says: "durrrrr, warter is gurd?"

Then you missed the point of Fallout 3 altogether. New Vegas clearly shows the Courier has EXPERIENCE with the Wasteland. Sure, I forgot COMPLETELY about the NCR and Legion, but you're so badly introduced into the methods of joining them (all is forgiven, blah blah blah), that it seems slapdash!

Fallout 3 is about a person who has both no experience, and no contact with the world outside, who never knew the lengths these people had to go to to survive in such a harsh world. The Lone Wanderer is given powerful choices, among them, to be sympathetic with these people, and give them the simplest of commodities, water, which actually has an enormous impact on the lives of people in this world! Radiation is so deadly, that people can die just from using the things they use to live! The wanderer is given the choice to spare cannibals, blow up a town to please a Hugh Hefner-alike, save or destroy a town full of simple minded adult-children, forcibly mutate the entire country's population through infecting "pure" water with the F.E.V., or hell, listen to the story about how a girl and her mother had to eat their cat to survive. The Courier is motivated by revenge at first. The Lone Wanderer is fueled by pity or pestilence, all the way to the final breath. The non-canon one.

But it's a game. You've read MY opinion. Enjoy yours, don't force it on me, I won't force mine on you. I like New Vegas, not for the "main" quest, but for the "side" stories.

[Tono]

Ugh, don't get me wrong, I love FFT, but there is always one point that no matter what always is a downside to me: Riovanes Castle. The one on one basically forces you either to be vastly over leveld or melee character, while the fight right after that is solely dependent on having a high speed stat, or hoping that Rafa's AI doesn't decide that she does something stupid. (Hint: Its Rafa. Something stupid will Happen) Things like l i t t l e m o n e y. and the like were easy to over look, but that? That easily excludes it from this list, IMO.

[VanBuren]

NV's story was actually really good.

Eh, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

FWIW, I thought FO3 was the better game by far but that's neither here nor there.

[TSED]

Whoa, harsh!

Yeah, I was pretty riled.




To stop the Enclave from being able to control the entire water supply of the Capital Wasteland.

And oh yeah he doesn't really prevent them anyway?

That makes no sense. You know how easy it actually is to purify water from radiation? You could do it with some tupper ware containers and some dirt. On top of that, there are robots that can use condensers to make way more than enough water practically at will; while the robots are not feasible for the common man, the condensing technology is REALLY simple.

So, basically, they would only control the water supply of the Capital Wasteland because everyone in the Capital Wasteland is too stupid to get water from easier methods.




The Enclave consists only of descendants of political authorities and Vault-Tec employees who survived the Great War through the a massive vault built specifically to suit them.

... Yeah? And? I was referring to a thing that a certain robobrain proposed to the player.

The Enclave is also one of the most technologically advanced factions on the planet, by the by. With having pre-war tech readily available and a private army of well trained soldiers, they could push almost anything they wanted through. If they wanted to kill everyone in the CW they wouldn't need to resort to water-screwing tactics; they could very easily just start laying some plasma helicopter fire all over the place. Or large scale gassing. Or even say "screw it, nuke it."

What I'm trying to say is "none of the Enclave's motivation makes any sense."




Only one man's opinion. And it's not mine.

It's not only one man's opinion, either. I only started playing FO3 because a let's play series I follow decided to do it. I got too fed up with FO3's main quest to play more than 5-8 hours in (I don't remember specifics), and oh man did I feel bad for the guys in the LP. All four of them had nothing nice to say within a few episodes. I'll agree with their general consensus about Bethesda's area designers being some of the best in the business, and that the final dungeon WAS pretty, though. Those are some good points for FO3. Nothing story related, though.




Then you missed the point of Fallout 3 altogether. New Vegas clearly shows the Courier has EXPERIENCE with the Wasteland. Sure, I forgot COMPLETELY about the NCR and Legion, but you're so badly introduced into the methods of joining them (all is forgiven, blah blah blah), that it seems slapdash!

While this bit is fairly interpretive (and thus wishy-washy, especially as I don't have time to gather evidence), I always got the impression the Courier wasn't from around the area FONV takes place in. This explains a complete lack of knowledge about the local politics, etc. etc., which helps act as a crutch for new players.

Is it excused? No. Is it the worst thing ever? No. Every single game has to do this whole "setting up the lore" thing somehow, and honestly? I'm pretty sick and tired of "through plot contrivances, I don't know diddly about squat! Help me, oh wise exposition font!" FONV at least lets the Courier act as an exposition font if they're smart enough.


Fallout 3 is about a person who has both no experience, and no contact with the world outside, who never knew the lengths these people had to go to to survive in such a harsh world. The Lone Wanderer is given powerful choices, among them, to be sympathetic with these people, and give them the simplest of commodities, water, which actually has an enormous impact on the lives of people in this world!

Yeah, but:
1) Aforementioned "tired of the PC not knowing anything about anything" trope. The last time I saw it used well was PS:T.
2) No, seriously, water is REALLY easy to clean radiation out of. Like, one of the easiest things in the world. Also, if this is 200 years after the bombs fell, the radiation should be mostly gone except for around [i]some[i/] ground zeros. Yeah, this area would've been hit pretty hard, but nowhere near as much radiation as what appears.
3) If we assume that Fallout radiation is different and isn't easy to clean out and lasts forever (alright I can try that suspension of disbelief thing), you've got other, easier ways to acquire water than pulling it out of that irradiated puddle anyway! Condensers are safe, clean, and easy. It would not take much knowledge to build one.

So, in short, the entire premise? Nope. Lost me from the get-go.


Radiation is so deadly, that people can die just from using the things they use to live! The wanderer is given the choice to spare cannibals, blow up a town to please a Hugh Hefner-alike,

Yeah, think about that. Cannibalism is understandable in situations as dire as this. Going "oh that place is blocking out my view of more barren landscape, let's explode it so that it's pretty"? No. No one in charge of their mental faculties enough to run a successful anything would want to explode a delicious nearby customer population in order to have nothing accomplished. MAYBE if he had a scheme to get all the people out and thus force them to live under his roofs and voila, a fortune is made, but nope. He just blows up all the men, women, and children because the player wanted those extra few caps. I'm sure actual sociopaths would realise how much of a better deal they could get from Megaton.


save or destroy a town full of simple minded adult-children,
... Lamplight was an atrocious assault on logic. Try to figure out where the new babies come from. That "neighbouring city" for adults can't be it, because there's no contact made once they leave for it. And soon as puberty starts to show, fwoosh, they're out of there. Seriously, that place hurts. And then there's how incredibly annoying the children are, probably because they KNOW they can't suffer repercussions from it. Sorry, but Bethesda was just straight up trolling there.



forcibly mutate the entire country's population through infecting "pure" water with the F.E.V.,
I already explained why that's completely irrational and a choice the wanderer or whatever he's called would never, ever, ever make.


or hell, listen to the story about how a girl and her mother had to eat their cat to survive.

That's the most appealing part of examples! A well-told story's always enjoyable.


The Courier is motivated by revenge at first. The Lone Wanderer is fueled by pity or pestilence, all the way to the final breath. The non-canon one.

The Courier gets his or her revenge, looks up, and sees the biggest fish in the lake swirling around for a piece of that action. The Courier then proceeds to wrangle, eat, or ignore the fish to The Courier's delight. It's basically a competent telling of The Hero's Journey, only The Hero is completely undefined in the story, as is the direction the Hero is going.

The Lone Wanderer... gets kicked out of his or her home by a madman because of a negligent parental figure. Then weird stuff happens (at this point the only main plot points I remember are the mindnumbingly dumb ones, as opposed to just the regular dumb ones). Eventually, holier-than-thou techevangelists recruit/conscript you into their army for whatever reason and you fight off some idiot-fascist-techies who want to control a region they basically already have the power to own without trying for no good reason, a bunch of people die, blah blah blah SCIENCE blah blah blah WATER blah SCIENCEWATER blah. FO3's main story's paced quickly so that you can never stop and think about why anything has happened, because as soon as you do, the whole thing falls apart.

And you know what? They force you to have a really close relationship with your dad. I really hate that, seeing as how my dad's a **** that almost got me killed 3 different ways on the same day for no bloody good reason. How hard would it have been to bring him along? I mean, really? And Dad KNEW the overseer was a totalitarian nut who'd react badly, but didn't care? Yeah, father of the year right there.


But it's a game. You've read MY opinion. Enjoy yours, don't force it on me, I won't force mine on you. I like New Vegas, not for the "main" quest, but for the "side" stories.

Well, you could just not read it. I do apologize for exploding earlier; I've had a long day of much graver opinion clashes with far more drastic consequences in case of explosion - I suppose I had bit off all the tongue I could at that point. That doesn't really excuse it, but yeah.

P.S. If you're curious about that let's play I mentioned, it's called "Spoiler Warning." They rip apart every game they play - even the ones they like - from a critical angle, which is why I like it. Also, FO3 was, I believe, its second season so it may have only had 3 people? Maybe I should watch some of that sucker to load up on some ammunition. Or something.

[Avilan the Grey]

My position when it comes to FO3 and FO:NV is this:

1. New Vegas has a passable main story, but nothing special at all. FO3 has a story written by morons randomly stringing idiot-balls together and hands them to anyone in the wasteland (You, your father, the Overseer...)

2. The early gameplay is far, FAR better in FO3 than in NV; the atmosphere is much better, you really feel like a desperate fugitive trying to survive the wonders and horrors of not only the wasteland, but "outside" at all, something that is lampshaded way too few times (only one, I think, when you can do the whole "lightbulb in the sky" comment to Moira)

3. Medium and Late game play is awful in FO3 and quite good in NV; basically just by leveling up, you break the game world in FO3; you get overly powerful but to compensate the game overlevels the enemies to a point where everything else dies in the wasteland. There is a reason why there are a bazillion mods to make the caravans and townspeople essential or very VERY well guarded; otherwise you end up with no shops except Moira after lvl 15 when the Ghoul Reavers and supermutant overlords have killed all.

Btw it seems Bethesda has learned from their mistakes in Skyrim. Not only is the writing crew from Morrowind back, with the exception of some places and beings (dragons, which the game is about anyway), the most powerful monsters are not on the roads and the cities and even farms seems to have large enough "zones" around them without spawning zones.

[Cespenar]

My position when it comes to FO3 and FO:NV is this:

1. New Vegas has a passable main story, but nothing special at all. FO3 has a story written by morons randomly stringing idiot-balls together and hands them to anyone in the wasteland (You, your father, the Overseer...)

2. The early gameplay is far, FAR better in FO3 than in NV; the atmosphere is much better, you really feel like a desperate fugitive trying to survive the wonders and horrors of not only the wasteland, but "outside" at all, something that is lampshaded way too few times (only one, I think, when you can do the whole "lightbulb in the sky" comment to Moira)

3. Medium and Late game play is awful in FO3 and quite good in NV; basically just by leveling up, you break the game world in FO3; you get overly powerful but to compensate the game overlevels the enemies to a point where everything else dies in the wasteland. There is a reason why there are a bazillion mods to make the caravans and townspeople essential or very VERY well guarded; otherwise you end up with no shops except Moira after lvl 15 when the Ghoul Reavers and supermutant overlords have killed all.


Thoroughly seconded.

Also, as some above, I thought of mentioning FFT, but then I remembered Wiegraf.

[Triscuitable]

That makes no sense.

No, it doesn't. Because I left some of your /quote in there on accident. :smalltongue:

[TSED]

1. New Vegas has a passable main story, but nothing special at all. FO3 has a story written by morons randomly stringing idiot-balls together and hands them to anyone in the wasteland (You, your father, the Overseer...)

Thank you!


2. The early gameplay is far, FAR better in FO3 than in NV; the atmosphere is much better, you really feel like a desperate fugitive trying to survive the wonders and horrors of not only the wasteland, but "outside" at all, something that is lampshaded way too few times (only one, I think, when you can do the whole "lightbulb in the sky" comment to Moira)

That's fair, actually. I never considered it, but I guess that's why it's so difficult to get more characters rolling out.


Btw it seems Bethesda has learned from their mistakes in Skyrim. Not only is the writing crew from Morrowind back, with the exception of some places and beings (dragons, which the game is about anyway), the most powerful monsters are not on the roads and the cities and even farms seems to have large enough "zones" around them without spawning zones.

Ehhh... Some of them, some of them. I'm still finding glass / ebony clad bandits (and some are starting to wield daedric things!), and the writing has a few idiot balls to hand out sometimes. It is definitely a step up, though.

I'll admit that while I'm playing Skyrim, I keep getting really strong urges to play Morrowind again. If people started to mod in all the stuff from Morrowind that's been cut (spears, crossbows, throwing, MANY magical effects from blind and sound to slowfall, water walking, flight, to telekinesis and mark and recall, to etc., more than a dozen enemy models, leveled enemies with hard caps for how high they level, a number of skill trees (WHERE DID MY MYSTICISM GO?! Plus monk characters are pure-screwed until mods), custom spells, in-game based fast travel, etc. etc. etc.) with the good gameplay changes that have come along (lockpick mini-game, traps, always-hit, regenerating magicka (debatable), pseudonecromancy, sneak attacks with ranged weapons, etc.)...

Well, I think it would easily be one of the most fun-to-play games ever made. As it is now, unfortunately, both Morrowind and Skyrim are very frustrating for me to play.

(Also does anyone else get grumpy that 'technology' is being lost over time? Magic, crossbows, spears, alchemical knowledge, and more! Just poof, everyone finds that concept completely alien now.)

[Abakus]

Baldur's Gate 2 (SoA) is probably the only game where I couldn't find a fault with at any stage, and it is still the game I played the most of all times.

For my taste it hat perfect pacing and character development, so no chapter felt like a grind to the next stage..something I did not find in any game since, not even in the expansion set...

[danzibr]

Why does your dad kill himself in FO3?
Bajiminy it would've been nice to have spoilers around this. I was just cruising through the text and that jumped out at me. I got several hours in before my computer crashed and I lost my data. I was going to restart it someday, but man...

[Nero24200]

Alundra for the PS1. Loved the story, loved the gameplay, loved the characters. The closest I ever came to crying while playing was during a pretty touching scene in this game.
When Alundra picks up Jess's farewell letter

[Triscuitable]

Bajiminy it would've been nice to have spoilers around this. I was just cruising through the text and that jumped out at me. I got several hours in before my computer crashed and I lost my data. I was going to restart it someday, but man...

A wizard unspoilered his post. We swear.

[TSED]

Bajiminy it would've been nice to have spoilers around this. I was just cruising through the text and that jumped out at me. I got several hours in before my computer crashed and I lost my data. I was going to restart it someday, but man...

Sorry. It's whited out now, if you want to hide yours as well.

And, uh, come on man. Video game spoiler protection fades well before 2 years, let alone 3. If it makes you feel any better, you're really not missing out on anything?

[Tenno Seremel]

What about Chrono Trigger? No random encounters: With the exception of the randomly-spawning Nu in one sidequest, all encounters are fixed, and the art style isn't particularly animesque unless you turn on the optional videos (and why you would turn those on is beyond me).
There are no videos in Chrono Trigger. In original one at least :P It wasn't stained with "let's make some more links to Chrono Cross" too. Oh, Chrono Cross… it didn't played well with me. Maybe if it wouldn't be loosely connected to Chrono Trigger I'd think better of it. Also, too many characters, often with weird requirements to recruit them, too small diversity… (more rant here).

As for original question that would be Chrono Trigger, Ar tonelico: Melody of Elemia (why not "The girl who continues to sing at the end of the world", I like this name), and Disgaea: Hour of Darkness. I love stories they have.

Even if Ar tonelico has a simple "protagonist goes on a quest to find X to save his country" start, it's more than that. And the world itself is attracts me (and I'm usually not into technomagic), and music, it's awesome (^. ^)

Disgaea has grinding if you wish for it but it is not necessary, which is good, and its story is pretty fun. Ar tonelico has random encounters but they run out. And there is a meter for that, which can be affected with items.

// random 04:32 in the morning post

[Triscuitable]

There are no videos in Chrono Trigger. In original one at least :P It wasn't stained with "let's make some more links to Chrono Cross" too. Oh, Chrono Cross… it didn't played well with me. Maybe if it wouldn't be loosely connected to Chrono Trigger I'd think better of it. Also, too many characters, often with weird requirements to recruit them, too small diversity… (more rant here).

I feel the exact same way.

Here's what breaks my heart. You know when Serge and his party of 300-something hooligans breaks into the big-bad's fortress? There is an AI (whose name escapes me, I believe it was S.I.N.) that is trying to stop you, that is stopped in turn by a seperate AI. Here's the sad part. That AI whom is the stopee happens to be Robo. And in that event, Robo is terminated. :smalleek:

Chrono Cross is not canon to me. Kill it with the mightiest of fires.


Sorry. It's whited out now, if you want to hide yours as well.

And, uh, come on man. Video game spoiler protection fades well before 2 years, let alone 3. If it makes you feel any better, you're really not missing out on anything?

I was going to say that. But a wizard doing it is so much funnier. Regardless, check the Vault Wiki page for the plot of Fallout 3. It actually shows a screenshot of Autumn and your dad in the chamber, and Autumn "injecting himself with the mysterious plot device". Yes, that is what the wiki wrote.

[Airk]

Due to the fact that most RPGs seem a bit foggy on the notion of conciseness or editing in general, odds are any RPG (even one I really like) will bore me way before I get to the end. The only question is whether I like it enough to pick it back up later, after I get tired of fighting the same three damn fights over and over again so I can inch higher on the leveling bar.

People still make games in which you grind for levels? (Outside of Disgaea, which seems to have built its success on people's addiction to grinding.).

I mean, yeah, you gain levels, but at this point in time any game that requires you to grind anything for purposes of completing the story should be burned. (Grinding for "new game plus" or "optional boss" content is allowed, if only because you should know what you're getting into.)

[Thane of Fife]

I was going to say no,but then I remembered Lufia: the Legend Returns. I can't recall anything I didn't like about that game.

Golden Sun (the first one) may also fit.

Chrono Trigger comes close, but there were parts with too many monsters.

And I could probably name some NWN modules, but I don't know if those count.

[Starwulf]

People still make games in which you grind for levels? (Outside of Disgaea, which seems to have built its success on people's addiction to grinding.).

I mean, yeah, you gain levels, but at this point in time any game that requires you to grind anything for purposes of completing the story should be burned. (Grinding for "new game plus" or "optional boss" content is allowed, if only because you should know what you're getting into.)

Just to give an alternate viewpoint/opinion(not interested in arguing it, one of my NYRs is to not argue over silly things), but I've always been of the mind that grinding for levels SHOULD be put in certain games(RPGs), if you can just breeze right through a game from start to finish without ever having to take the time to make yourself stronger, it would be a bit boring/too easy, plus not making a whole lot of sense simply because why should a nobody(not ALWAYS the case, but usually) be able to go from being able to beat up on the weak monsters surrounding his starting village/area/whatever, to being able to take on the strongest monsters in the world that are surrounding the Main Villains lair just based on his travels through the world? Sure he'll have gotten stronger throughout said travels, but that much? Never made a lot of sense to me.

I respect your opinion though, I know some people don't enjoy grinding, or just don't really have the time for it, but still want to enjoy RPGs, I just prefer that SOME grinding be mandatory, usually near the end in order to be able to defeat the final boss/his minions/monsters surrounding him.

[danzibr]

Just to give an alternate viewpoint/opinion(not interested in arguing it, one of my NYRs is to not argue over silly things), but I've always been of the mind that grinding for levels SHOULD be put in certain games(RPGs), if you can just breeze right through a game from start to finish without ever having to take the time to make yourself stronger, it would be a bit boring/too easy, plus not making a whole lot of sense simply because why should a nobody(not ALWAYS the case, but usually) be able to go from being able to beat up on the weak monsters surrounding his starting village/area/whatever, to being able to take on the strongest monsters in the world that are surrounding the Main Villains lair just based on his travels through the world? Sure he'll have gotten stronger throughout said travels, but that much? Never made a lot of sense to me.

I respect your opinion though, I know some people don't enjoy grinding, or just don't really have the time for it, but still want to enjoy RPGs, I just prefer that SOME grinding be mandatory, usually near the end in order to be able to defeat the final boss/his minions/monsters surrounding him.
Seconded! Yeah, I think you need to do a bit of grinding here and there in RPGs.

Hey, and this reminds me. Lunar 2 had great post-game.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Oh, KotOR 2. I actually thought it was vastly superior to the first one, outside of continuing the Star Wars tradition of only-Jedi-are-good-at-things. Probably have played through that game eight or ten times.

[warty goblin]

People still make games in which you grind for levels? (Outside of Disgaea, which seems to have built its success on people's addiction to grinding.).

I mean, yeah, you gain levels, but at this point in time any game that requires you to grind anything for purposes of completing the story should be burned. (Grinding for "new game plus" or "optional boss" content is allowed, if only because you should know what you're getting into.)

It's not so much a matter of grinding as much as it is a matter of lots of nearly identical encounters with the same sorts of enemies, often with no bearing on the plot. I don't mind combat in a game, but most RPGs don't have that much variability between combats in a single playthrough, so what worked in the last fight is going to work in the next one, so fighting off groups of bandits/wolves/spiders/orcs/whatevers every hundred feet or so just gets tedious. Even if the combat system is one I genuinely enjoy, odds are I'll simply burn out on it due to trivial, unnecessary and too frequent fights.

I have this problem with other types of game as well, but since most of them don't seem hellbent on padding themselves out to take 50+ hours its usually less severe. That shorter length allows the designers to make individual scripted encounters better and more varied, and random encounters more easily avoided if the player wants. The Saints' Row games are a perfect example of this; I can start a fight whenever I feel like it - but can also go about my business unmolested if I so choose - and the scripted mission fights have a lot of variety and are usually very distinct from the random brawls. Combat is something fun I can do as much or as little of as I want, not something I have to deal with every time I want to get from point A to point B.

[Cespenar]

Even if the combat system is one I genuinely enjoy, odds are I'll simply burn out on it due to trivial, unnecessary and too frequent fights.


*remembers King's Bounty*

*shudders*

[danzibr]

*remembers King's Bounty*

*shudders*
The one on Sega? I love that one! The one on PC? Yeah, I didn't like that one.

[ShinyRocks]

Shining Force and Shining Force 2. Pretty much played them through then started them again. And did so again with the Xbox Megadrive Collection. Love them. Love love love. (Or are they tactical RPGs and thus don't count?)

Skies of Arcadia. The combat got a bit annoying, but I could stomach it, and it was still an awesome game with a brilliantly thought-out world.

Grandia 2. Possibly still my favourite RPG ever. Love the plot. Love the characters. And it still has the cleverest combat system I've ever seen in an RPG videogame.

Losty Odyssey is almost up there, but the random combat and massive intro animation every time just wore on my eventually. Its story and especially its side-stories from Kaim's memories are brilliant though and made me cry on several occasions.

I'm not fond of grinding. If you flee every battle then, yes, you shouldn't be able to fight the toughest monsters/bosses. But engaging in a normal amount of combat should allow you to go through the game and finish it.

I'll make an exception if there are, like, experience jackpot monsters - Silver Kelolon in Lost Odyssey for example. But having to grind against ordinary mobs over and over I think is just lazy. Like in my Pokemon Pearl replay, I reached the League with mons at 45, and the league's ones go up to 66.

Even that's okay as long as they don't add in a to-hit penalty against stronger enemies (like, say, WoW does). (Although grinding in an MMO is totally different, and is okay, and that's not my point.)

[Airk]

I'm not fond of grinding. If you flee every battle then, yes, you shouldn't be able to fight the toughest monsters/bosses. But engaging in a normal amount of combat should allow you to go through the game and finish it.

This.

I'm sorry, but attempting to apply logic/a suspension of disbelief argument to games (Which is basically what you're doing when you say "It doesn't make any sense for a nobody to be able to get to world conquering power levels just by travelling the world and killing the stuff that gets in his way.") is a guaranteed fail. Game mechanics get put in place because they are good game mechanics, or because they serve a purpose. Not because they make tons of logical sense. There's an entire TVTropes page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation) with huge numbers of subheaders just to address one FACET of the way this sort of argument is setting yourself up for a headache.

Aeris died in a cutscene (come to that, so did Chrono). Enough said about how things "make sense" in these games.

If you like grinding, that's fine, there are plenty of ways and places to grind and games that support that playstyle, but it is one of the most archaic and, for many people, offputting facets of the RPG genre and should never be required in a properly designed game.

[Karoht]

Final Fantasy X
I'm able to ignore poor voice acting, I come to expect it in any game that is localized, and in any Square game because I'm pretty sure that they don't actually beta test anything.
But the only point of this game I didn't enjoy was Blitzball, and therefore only played it when absolutely necessary, which isn't much.
I'm a sucker for a good story, and the only character I didn't like was Rikku, who is easy to ignore if you've ever been around small childen.
I disliked aspects of it, but I genuinely enjoyed the play experience the whole way through.


Valkyrie Profile on PS1. I think the only thing I disliked was maybe two lines of voice acting. 100% great play experience. No grinding if you're smart about how you level up (two easily acquired items + use of the XP orb + effective combo chaining in combat = fast and more effective level ups), making the game feel way less repetative, or less punitive for skipping enemies. In fact the combo factor and it's ability to net you extra XP was what really did it for me. The game rewards you for being good at it, and defeating enemies quickly and efficiently.

[GungHo]

Baldur's Gate +TotSC - The Nashkel Mines. Which, incidentally, is where I am at the moment. Also the Cloakwood. I still usually have some fun in those areas, just not as much.
Get me out of this hell... hole?

My contribution... I don't remember a time I was annoyed with Final Fantasy VI except when I was intentionally grinding Gau Rage and Strago Lore.

Also, Quest For Glory 2.

[Karoht]

@Grinding
I kill what gets in my way. Unless it's tougher than I can handle, at which point I flee, and potentially reapproach the problem if I have to or if I'm interested in the challenge factor. I usually try to get into as few fights as I need to. Killing 10 of X because a quest tells me to isn't really grinding, it's completing an objective.
Running in a circle waiting for extra encounters, or killing everything in an area without a directive (quest) to do so? Those examples fit my personal opinion of grinding. Though sometimes, it's just fun-factor because I enjoy combat.

Again, I liked VP because if I was smart about how I played and how I leveled up, I never felt the need to go looking for trouble, or go out of my way to kill something, both of which I consider 'grindy.' Again, I'm not against killing what is in my way, and I don't avoid killing every non-boss I possibly can. But I definately enjoyed looking down a corridor of enemies and thinking to myself "I can skip these guys, I don't feel like killing them" and I could do so without feeling penalized for doing it.

AND the game made dodging enemies into a jumping/platforming puzzle, which could at times be equally engaging, especially since I could use an enemy to reach a higher platform and potentially hard to reach treasure.

In fact there were two dungeons where I would dodge all the non-boss mobs I possibly could. Why? They net me not enough benefit to make them worth killing, they dropped no signifigant loot, and were trivially easy to kill. Killing them would have been a very grindy and unnecessary expenditure of my time. I LIKE the fact that the game more or less supported me in such a decision.
And it made all the jumping puzzles more interesting/challenging too.

[Airk]

@Grinding
I kill what gets in my way. Unless it's tougher than I can handle, at which point I flee, and potentially reapproach the problem if I have to or if I'm interested in the challenge factor. I usually try to get into as few fights as I need to. Killing 10 of X because a quest tells me to isn't really grinding, it's completing an objective.
Running in a circle waiting for extra encounters, or killing everything in an area without a directive (quest) to do so? Those examples fit my personal opinion of grinding. Though sometimes, it's just fun-factor because I enjoy combat.

I generally agree, but there is a line on "Kill X" quests - a couple of them are fine, because, you know, sometimes people need you to kill things, and as long as those things aren't random and super rare, that's fine. But it's also possible to make these quests into a grind, where you NEED to do LOTS of these quests to advance. That makes them a grind.