Familiar with class levels?!?

[Getsugaru]

In an upcoming campaign I'm going to play in, I'm going to play a arcane caster with a hummingbird familiar (+4 to initiative). However, my build means that my familiar will permanently be for a level 1 Wizard, as the classes I'll be taking will not be proceeding familiars. This got me thinking, "since it won't be able to progress, my enemies will kill it easy. I don't want that. There must be a way to make it stronger...wait...it has an INT score higher than 2..." Eventually, I came to the conclusion that there must be a way to have your familiar gain class levels.

Anybody have any ideas?

[Andreaz]

While your familiar's int and AC won't improve, its hitpoints and BAB aren't based on your wizard levels, as far as I recall. They're based on your character total. Saves too, I think.

[Getsugaru]

While your familiar's int and AC won't improve, its hitpoints and BAB aren't based on your wizard levels, as far as I recall. They're based on your character total. Saves too, I think.

Checked it. In the PHB, it states it's determined by the master's class level, which means that if I only have 1 wizard level and 6 levels in spellthief, even with master spellthief, its still an ECL 1 familiar.

[Yuki Akuma]

Its hit points, BaB and saves are based on yours, though. Even if you only have 1 level of Wizard and 19 of Fighter, it has the BaB of a Wizard 1/Fighter 19, as well as its saves, and HP equal to half yours.

But it only have the Int and special abilities of a level 1 familiar.

Okay? Okay.

Technically, there's nothing in the rules that prohibits a familiar getting class levels (and in fact the rules for HP, BaB and saves say it uses either its master's or its own, whichever is higher), but... I can't think of any way to do it explicitly.

Maybe you could swing it being your cohort if you take Leadership.

[Andreaz]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#familiars

Hit Dice

For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.
Hit Points

The familiar has one-half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.
Attacks

Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.

Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar’s kind.
Saving Throws

For each saving throw, use either the familiar’s base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master’s (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.
Skills

For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

Character level != class level. These all use totals.

[Getsugaru]

There's still got to be a way for a familiar to get class levels. That's really what I'm after.

[Yuki Akuma]

There's still got to be a way for a familiar to get class levels. That's really what I'm after.

There isn't. There is nothing in any books that addresses this. They're a class feature, not a character.

Just trade your familiar away for a better alternate class feature and take Improved Initiative if you really want a good initiative bonus.

[hex0]

There isn't. There is nothing in any books that addresses this. They're a class feature, not a character.

Just trade your familiar away for a better alternate class feature and take Improved Initiative if you really want a good initiative bonus.

Probably this. Although it is a hummingbird still so I wouldn't worry about it even being seen. It will be in your hat or pocket most of the time.

[Thurbane]

You could swap out the familiar for an ACF, then grab the Obtain Familiar feat later on. The feat allows your levels from all arcane casting levels to stack for familiar abilities.

[hex0]

You could swap out the familiar for an ACF, then grab the Obtain Familiar feat later on. The feat allows your levels from all arcane casting levels to stack for familiar abilities.

Never noticed that part. How does this work with Caster level shenanigans though? Like if you were a Trickster Spellthief/Nar Demonbinder/Sublime Chord with master spellthief?

[Kittenwolf]

Really, there are two ways to go about what you're after (A familiar with class levels).

1) Take an ACF to get a feat rather than your familiar, and take Leadership for a Cohort. Then chat to your GM about your Cohort being an awakened hummingbird
2) Keep your Familiar and take leadership, and point your GM to the Paladin ruling (from the DMG I think) that says a Paladin can have their special mount as a cohort at a certain penalty. Ask that they allow the same with your familiar.

[Reluctance]

It's a creature whose HP, BAB and saves all scale with yours. The only defensive bonus for gaining wizard levels is an AC boost. Nice. But as your unarmored hinie can point out, definitely not mandatory. Then add Improved Evasion, Share Spells, and a decent chance of hiding on your person for some cover bonus. So long as you don't try to actively use it as a combatant, it should be safe from most threats.

If you want a combat capable familiar, Improved Familiar is what you're looking for. Class levels would definitely require taking Leadership to make it your cohort, and even then will probably leave a bad taste in peoples mouths.

[hex0]

2) Keep your Familiar and take leadership, and point your GM to the Paladin ruling (from the DMG I think) that says a Paladin can have their special mount as a cohort at a certain penalty. Ask that they allow the same with your familiar.

Or you could also be a spellcaster/Paladin/Ranger/Arcane Hierophant with Devoted Tracker and Leadership and your familiar would get the abilities of a Cohort, Mount, a Familiar, and an Animal Companion! Might as well throw Natural Bond on there for good measure.

[Thurbane]

Never noticed that part. How does this work with Caster level shenanigans though? Like if you were a Trickster Spellthief/Nar Demonbinder/Sublime Chord with master spellthief?
The exact wording is:

For the purpose of determining familiar abilities that depend on your arcane caster class level, your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack.
It says levels in classes, not caster levels, so no CL shenanigans.

[NNescio]

Never noticed that part. How does this work with Caster level shenanigans though? Like if you were a Trickster Spellthief/Nar Demonbinder/Sublime Chord with master spellthief?

The feat depends on your actual levels in arcane spellcasting classes (levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells), not caster level.

Edit: Swordsaged.

[hex0]

The exact wording is:

It says levels in classes, not caster levels, so no CL shenanigans.

I was confused because you said 'casting levels' above which sounds like 'caster levels'. Dang. :smallbiggrin:

Still sounds nice though.

[killem2]

What if you made it a tiny magical gear? Like a really tiny ring that could go around its head, or something. I know humming birds are small, but there isn't anything saying that the magical item has to be of a minimum size is there? I know it won't be the same as increasing levels, but if you can increase stats via magic items, maybe there might be a chance?

Increase its int score with some tiny magic item, and then maybe create a small amulet that does something else, maybe even magical, if its int score is high enough.

[Yuki Akuma]

You don't have to make magic items any particular size - a magic ring will shrink to fit a hummingbird's toe/wing.

[Coidzor]

Technically, there's nothing in the rules that prohibits a familiar getting class levels (and in fact the rules for HP, BaB and saves say it uses either its master's or its own, whichever is higher), but... I can't think of any way to do it explicitly.

Maybe you could swing it being your cohort if you take Leadership.

About the only way I can think of it is to have a muckdweller cohort and take the improved familiar feat which, thanks to serpent kingdoms or whichever book it was that actually introduced muckdwellers, can net a muckdweller as a familiar.

They're an LA+0 Tiny Humanoid race too.

[Tetsubo 57]

There's still got to be a way for a familiar to get class levels. That's really what I'm after.

I recommend looking at the Noble Wild third party book. It deals with playing animals and has a full 20 level familiar class. I suggest the Pathfinder version of course.

[FearlessGnome]

There's an obscure third party book somewhere that has a prestige class. The class sucks, but it does exist. Over the course of 10 levels, you lose five caster levels, but your familiar gets 10 class levels, and some minor other things I can't recall. The same book has other stuff that's more interesting, like paying exp to give your familiar permanent new abilities, and new exotic familiars. Various fey, monstrous humanoids, etc.

[UserClone]

Just get a Familiar Pocket (extra-dimensional storage pocket to keep your familiar safe).

[Ruethgar]

A familiar is not prohibited from taking a class. There is the issue with training. Even for fast developing creatures, any class you pick requires at the least a year of training which is a significant portion of the life of most familiar eligible animals.

You can try to get an animal that already has intelligence of at least three and thus already potentially has a class level(most likely barbarian or rogue of the PC classes), then it would presumably continue with that advancement since it becoming a familiar does not explicitly prevent it from gaining XP. The feat Dark Ancestry from the Quintessential Witch would work for some familiars to that end(those with 2int).


Dark Ancestry (General)
Benefit: At some point in your family's past, there was an illicit coupling between a demon or devil and a relative of yours. Throughout the succeeding generations the taint has remained dormant until you were born. You may choose two of features from the following list:
bite attack (1d3), darkvision, +2 to Fortitude saves against poison, acid resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, cold resistance 5, or fire resistance 5, +1 inherent bonus to Strength, +1 inherent bonus to Dexterity, or +1 inherent bonus to Intelligence.
Special: Taking this feat prevents you from having a good alignment. This feat may only be taken at first level and only once. Finally this feat may not be taken by outsiders of any kind.

[Doxkid]

As a wizard, there is very little stopping you from taking control of a much less powerful creature in a very permanent way. So do that.

[ArcturusV]

Does class training necessarily take at least a year? I only ask this because as I recall most of the Class/Age Adjustments for Level 1 were done by race. And you had things like Elf Fighters taking much longer to learn their skills than a Half Orc Fighter even if they were learning the same skills. And the half-orc is more likely less intelligent so it's not an Intelligence thing.

[Cog]

Regarding training times: given that the creature is already a familiar, the situation might have more in common with multiclassing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html).

[Flickerdart]

While there's nothing saying it can't, as soon as your familiar takes class levels, it will stop being a class feature and become an NPC, and thus count as a party member when determining loot and such. As far as I know, there isn't a way to give familiars class levels with a mechanical feature coming from you. You could always go Arcane Hierophant and staple animal companion bonuses to it.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please don't revive old threads.