Rambling about fighters.

[Gharkash]

So, to end my boredom, i decided to post my first thread in these forums, talking about fighters in 3/3.5 dnd. First of all, i have an opinion that not many of my fellow players in my group share, that the fighter is a seriously failed attempt to capture the essense of a combatant. They all argue about his feats, and that they make him interesting and viable, but i beg to differ. Fighters in my opinion have an extremely narrow field of playing, basically being good at first levels and then sucking big time.This comes from the lack of skill points and class skills (both of them are poor, making the fighter seem like some one that is never sophisticated, some one that only swings a sword) and the nature of feats. There are rarely feats that are worth taking, ones that scale and dont become useless after 2-3 lvls. Aside from that, they rarely are able to fullfil any other role than that of a tank and/or crowd controller (every build i find in the net that is considered legit is about tripping and bullrushing things so your mages/divine casters can damage and be cool in general). So i ask myself why is that? with homebrewing i have made a more interesting fighter, and if any one is interested i can talk about it. So, i await opinions on how others see the subject (i believe that there are others like me, as i have seen fixes of the fighter online).
Any opinion is welcome.

[Urpriest]

It's widely acknowledged that the best fighter fix is Tome of Battle's Warblade. Same exact concept, executed in a way that makes it fun to play and viable in a group.

[Gharkash]

I agree to that, but a lot of people find him overpowered, incuding my DM. He offered to nerf him a bit for me to play, but i couldnt see the point there.

[MukkTB]

Tome of Battle is the fix. Homebrewing is a little clunky. Nothing really wrong with it, but we're not all playing the same game when homebrewing comes into play. Or with house rules. I would point the DM at the tier system and try to explain ToB with that.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0
JaronK makes a pretty solid argument.

If he doesn't believe in the tier system fine. Go check out the homebrew section of the forums. Many many many many people have tried to fix the fighter.

[Killer Angel]

They all argue about his feats, and that they make him interesting and viable, but i beg to differ.

Tell'em to make a fighter at lev. 5, 10 and 15, and put said fighter Vs some challenges (various monsters, mundane and magical traps, dangerous or difficult enviroment, etc.).
Let's see how they'll find it "interesting and viable" after that. "Frustrating" should be the next feeling.

[Little Brother]

I agree to that, but a lot of people find him overpowered, incuding my DM. He offered to nerf him a bit for me to play, but i couldnt see the point there.How does this DM feel about Clerics and Wizards?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I agree to that, but a lot of people find him overpowered, incuding my DM. He offered to nerf him a bit for me to play, but i couldnt see the point there.

Perchance, what spellcasters is your DM allowing in this campaign of his?

EDIT: Warblade'd.

[motoko's ghost]

In all honesty I've never actually encountered this in any of my games, usually by high levels the fighters can basically teleport behind whatever it is and hit for about ~200 dmg/rd

I dont know that might just be our group though :confsed:

[hex0]

How does this DM feel about Clerics and Wizards?

Oh they are just healbots and blasters, right? :smallwink:

If you want something between 3.5 Fighter and Warblade...there is the Pathfinder Fighter. :smallamused:

[absolmorph]

In all honesty I've never actually encountered this in any of my games, usually by high levels the fighters can basically teleport behind whatever it is and hit for about ~200 dmg/rd

I dont know that might just be our group though :confsed:
... How?!
You can't get most of the big damage boosters that an ubercharger uses (since you're not charging), and that would require 50 damage per hit...
And how are you getting teleportation with that many uses per day?

[gkathellar]

Fighters in my opinion have an extremely narrow field of playing, basically being good at first levels and then sucking big time.This comes from the lack of skill points and class skills (both of them are poor, making the fighter seem like some one that is never sophisticated, some one that only swings a sword) and the nature of feats. There are rarely feats that are worth taking, ones that scale and dont become useless after 2-3 lvls.

This is the general analysis you'll find on 3.5 boards. If you're curious about this kind of thing, Google the Tier system for D&D (make sure to find the revised thread) if you want the most widely accepted analysis of how class balance tends to play out. You will do well here, young apprentice.


with homebrewing i have made a more interesting fighter, and if any one is interested i can talk about it. So, i await opinions on how others see the subject (i believe that there are others like me, as i have seen fixes of the fighter online).

Well, march on over to the Homebrew board and show it to us.


If you want something between 3.5 Fighter and Warblade...there is the Pathfinder Fighter. :smallamused:

Ah, yes, the Pathfinder fighter — because the only problem with the fighter is that its numbers are too small.

[Myth]

OP your DM may be suffering from a case of the common misconception. It's caused by tropes, TV, movies and books, and spreads amongst the newer players/DMs of DnD 3.5

"He has heavy armour. FULL BAB. d10 HIT DICE. OH-MAH-LAWD!"

Tell him that the Warblade does not need a nerf, it's a Tier 3 class and if he allows anything that is a full caster class from Core (or even outside of Core) he is being biased and ignorant.

The general bad thing about fighters is that they have so few things to do. Leave combat aside and they are good for hauling things around and being used as mail-clad paper weights.

In combat, anything that flies, casts, has intellect or special qualities can either disable/ignore the fighter or otherwise make him look pathetic at the later stages of the game. Fighter needs a lot of WBL-mancy and a plethora of splatbooks to even contend with the likes of a Spirit Totem Barbarian, let alone something like a Crusader/Warblade and upward.

[Runestar]

I find the fighter can be fun so long as the casters are willing to support him with the necessary buffs and you are fine with doing nothing save attacking for good damage.

In fact, in an age of worms story hour I read on Enworld, during the party's final battle with Kyuss (a demigod with 660hp), it was the fighter who did the bulk of the damage. The rogue was useless for most part because Kyuss was immune to crits while the wizard focused on debuffing and some battlefield control, IIRC. :smallsmile:

[gkathellar]

I find the fighter can be fun so long as the casters are willing to support him with the necessary buffs and you are fine with doing nothing save attacking for good damage.

Yes, exactly. The fighter is not capable of filling its intended role without support from other classes (who could perform said role better by supporting themselves), and its intended role is to perform one routine action over and over again.

Some people certainly find that acceptable in play, but from a game design standpoint it really isn't.

[Myth]

So how would have a Barbarian or any ToB class fared in the same situation? Also, I love ENWorld and play my games there. There's very few optimizers there, and the DMs tend to be a bit behind the times on charop.

A 660 hp (who cares about HP anyway) Demigod however, I'd have ran in a way that the fighter would not be able to touch. A demigod is a DR0 deity. He gets one Salient Divine Ability. Anything with a brain will get Alter Reality.

So that fighter has to hit something that has every buff in existence made permamnent and a permanent Anti-Magic Field that doesn't affect said Deity (but turns the fighter's shiny stick into a plain old stick)

To sum it up: the DM was very lenient or very incompetent (or we aren't talking about 3.5)

[Tyndmyr]

That's fairly normal for high end/low epic fights, in my experience. Epic adversaries tend to garner a LOT of immunities. Ridiculous amounts of physical damage is generally the easiest way to drop them.


So, to end my boredom, i decided to post my first thread in these forums, talking about fighters in 3/3.5 dnd. First of all, i have an opinion that not many of my fellow players in my group share, that the fighter is a seriously failed attempt to capture the essense of a combatant. They all argue about his feats, and that they make him interesting and viable, but i beg to differ. Fighters in my opinion have an extremely narrow field of playing, basically being good at first levels and then sucking big time.This comes from the lack of skill points and class skills (both of them are poor, making the fighter seem like some one that is never sophisticated, some one that only swings a sword) and the nature of feats. There are rarely feats that are worth taking, ones that scale and dont become useless after 2-3 lvls. Aside from that, they rarely are able to fullfil any other role than that of a tank and/or crowd controller (every build i find in the net that is considered legit is about tripping and bullrushing things so your mages/divine casters can damage and be cool in general). So i ask myself why is that? with homebrewing i have made a more interesting fighter, and if any one is interested i can talk about it. So, i await opinions on how others see the subject (i believe that there are others like me, as i have seen fixes of the fighter online).
Any opinion is welcome.

Ask about how he'd nerf the warblade.

Or, just play a gish. Wizard with str/con as favored attributes and only a mediocre int score. Grab a halberd or a spiked chain. Build as follows:

Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/HP 2/Wizard 2/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Whatever.

Note that HP 1 can give you that halberd proficiency free. Trade the familiar out for a free feat(or abrupt jaunt). EK can be qualified for via a feat from PGtF, iirc.

So, now, you're a human dude with a weapon what hits things. Armor is magical, but looks real. When I played this version, I was a "paladin", with Luminous Armor. Never cast spells other than heals and precombat buffs.

[Lans]

^ I think you need all martial weapons to enter EK so I'm not sure if your build is legal


Tell'em to make a fighter at lev. 5, 10 and 15, and put said fighter Vs some challenges (various monsters, mundane and magical traps, dangerous or difficult enviroment, etc.).
Let's see how they'll find it "interesting and viable" after that. "Frustrating" should be the next feeling.

Pretty sure with enough optimization a commoner can go through those.


... How?!
You can't get most of the big damage boosters that an ubercharger uses (since you're not charging), and that would require 50 damage per hit...
And how are you getting teleportation with that many uses per day?

Intelligent item gets you dimension door, which should be good enough.
Damage wise Weapon spec line, + knowledge devotion+weapon is about 28 a hit, add in 19 strength and you have 47, then add in PA, haste, kensai or pathfinder fighter variant, drugs, monkey grip bracer, weapon crystals,TWF with unarmed strikes, getting PAO into a big ass troll/giant, using feat to pick up punishing stance or burning blade


Edit-Remember uberchargers do 300+ per hit

[Tyndmyr]

^ I think you need all martial weapons to enter EK so I'm not sure if your build is legal

That's what the Faerun feat is for. Militia is the name, now that I think about it.

If you skip EK, Abj Champ is qualified for without the feat, though. So, it's a tradeoff.

[Lans]

Ah, I missed that in your post.

[erikun]

Clerics are my preferred core Fighter fix, perhaps with a level or two of actual Fighter if you are worried about being too powerful, or want easy access to martial weapons. :smallamused:

[Doug Lampert]

Clerics are my preferred core Fighter fix, perhaps with a level or two of actual Fighter if you are worried about being too powerful, or want easy access to martial weapons. :smallamused:

Druid Animal companion is probably better if you actually want to fill the fighter role. Just remember that you're playing a Fleshraker or Bear or Wolf or whatever that gets a FREE FULL CASTER at equal level (rather than level -2) as a cohort to buff you and he can take feats to buff you even further. And at higher levels your pet druid cohort actually gets to change into something like you and still cast spells and do other nifty stuff like spend a feat on Wild Cohort to get you a friend and take leadership to get even more friends.

Also notice they being an animal companion means never having to waste money on a raise dead for yourself, just for the cohort.

The rules will try to tell you that the druid is the actual character, don't be fooled, that's only true if you want to play a full caster, at low levels especially the fighter replacement is the animal companion and the druid is just his buffing buddy.

Cleric CAN do melee, but to do it as well as a fighter you have to build as a melee character with a couple of spells, and cleric built as a cleric is lots stronger.

[Porkslope]

I agree that the fighter kind of gets shafted compared to other classes. I've been playing 3e and 3.5 since release and I'm running a Pathfinder game, and I've been tooling around with house rules for Fighter, in this thread.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225874

The fixes may not be appropriate for 3.x since they were designed specifically for Pathfinder, but maybe they'll help you.

The general consensus I've seen is that to fix the fighter, you need to address a few specific problems, that I tried to address with my own fix.

Skills. Boost their skills points, and if you want to emphasize their versatility even more, let them pick a few class skills of their own.
Unique class features. Feats do not make a good class feature. Pathfinder kinda-sorta addressed this with Weapon Training and Armour Training, but those really just boil down to "higher numbers" which don't always help. Stealing from the rogue and barbarian in Pathfinder to make a list of talents seems like a good way to go.
Covering weaknesses. In PF, rogues get Slippery Mind, Evasion, and Defensive Roll to cover for low will save and low HP, while barbarians get Superstitious and Clear Mind to cover for their own low will save. In 3.x the fighter gets nothing and has to blow a feat on a save-boosting feat, detracting from his already-meager class features.
Moving and full attacking. This just seems like something the fighter should be able to do.


It's unfortunate that OP's GM wants to nerf the warblade, since the warblade makes a wonderful fighter replacement.

[Incriptus]

You know I played a pure fighter recently . . . and I liked it :eek:

At level 1 I was the man. Everyone else was afraid of a pack of house cats ;-). I was rolling deep with 17 hp & 20 AC. +5 to hit.

I ended up getting a shield, again a big no-no on these boards, but damn did I love that shield. Even at level 1, it gave me a +4 to AC [Extreme Shield + Shield Specialization]. Later I would get a + 2 Enhancement = +6 to AC. Shield Ward allowing me to apply that to my touch AC, Trips, Grapples, Ect. Throwing on a Crystal of Arrow Protection for another +5 to ranged attacks. Sure my damage was low, but very consistant. My ability to consistantly hit and the enemy's ability to consistantly miss really evened things out.

I was the invincible warrior, my enemies would bounce off me. Even though my damage was low it was steady, and my group appreciated that constant. At no time was our Druid or his pet bear a replacement for me. The charging barbarian was a glass cannon [and perhaps a little insane]. The cleric was always a few levels behind [plus he was a cleric not a DMM Persist'ed Buffster]. My style was impetuous, my defense was impregnable, I was just ferocious, I wanted to eat your children . . . [sorry]

Things pretty much stayed this way until about level 8. Things started to slow down. My low damage was getting laughable. My other allies were reaching their potential while I was on the decline. We began fighting more & more enemies with defenses other than AC. I'm now relying more and more on toys while they're relying more and more on class feature/spells. Around level 10 I was really starting to really lag behind [plus I hadn't gotten any more nice things since about level 7]. I just got a new batch of toys so I think I may be playable for a few more levels but the writing on the wall is clear.

[Greenish]

I ended up getting a shieldShields are good at lowest levels, where everything will die with one hit anyway.

[Urpriest]

... How?!
You can't get most of the big damage boosters that an ubercharger uses (since you're not charging), and that would require 50 damage per hit...
And how are you getting teleportation with that many uses per day?

Anklets of Teleportation solves all of those issues handily. As far as I can tell all he's referring to is an ubercharger with Anklets of Teleportation, which isn't bad in the power department, but is rather a one-trick pony.

Edit: Also, for the OP: if your DM thinks Warblades are overpowered there are two possibilities. Either he doesn't like their versatility and damage output, which are exactly the things you want more of, or he thinks they're more powerful than the Fighter, in which case he would think the same of any attempt to make the Fighter more powerful. So either way if that's his attitude you won't change his tune.

[Gharkash]

Thank you all for your replies. To answer a few questions my DM generally allows almost any caster from the books, and even though we supposedly play with onnly core and complete he has allowed things that were outside these restrictions. For the cleric fix, i like pure fighters, not divine casters that can turn into fighters with ridiculous buffs like +4 str for no reason whatsoever. As for the tier list and the fixes that one of you suggested i thank you, and i will take a look, even though i am pretty happy about my homebrew char. I agree that he changes the game for most of the party, but playing what you like is the basic principle i think when i play dnd, on any other pnp rpg. Now for the homebrew char, i have a tweeked Vow of Poverty (one to reflect the style of a non armored fighter, allowing martial and masterwork wepons, but without the resistances, the exalted feats, the true seeing stuff and the freedom of movement perma buff), i go 6 lvls fighter, after that master samurai from sword and fist, and then 3 lvls of battosai (a homebrew prestige class from the dnd wiki). If you have time take a look, i have one more lvl empty, and i was thinking what to get. A barbarian lvl would be a nice buff cause of the rage and the movement speed, but it doesnt blend well with the concept of an ascetic fighter that relies on his mind as much he relies on his body. Do you have any PrC's that would fit to this concept? Do you think this build is even mildly op? The wizard of the group argues that the battosai lvls are op, but with a calculation, i found that it only closes the gap between the damage of the two.

[Incanur]

I was rolling deep with 17 hp & 20 AC. +5 to hit.

How did you get 17hp at level 1 as a fighter? 24 Con? 18 Con and Toughness? 14 Con and Dauntless?


[Extreme Shield + Shield Specialization]

Just so folks know, this technically doesn't work.

[Incriptus]

How did you get 17hp at level 1 as a fighter? 24 Con? 18 Con and Toughness? 14 Con and Dauntless?



Just so folks know, this technically doesn't work.

Dwarf Racial Substitution, D12 hitdice, Max on level 1. 18 natural + 2 racial constitution for a +5 modifier.

Yes legally "Choose one type of shield from the following list: buckler, heavy, or light" doesn't work with Extreem. We decided to house rule it. seemed like an overly artificial requirement.

[Incanur]

We decided to house rule it. seemed like an overly artificial requirement.

Yeah, definitely.

As you write, shields are pretty solid for the first five levels or so. Their poor reputation (and the fighter's, to an extent) in part comes from assuming higher-level play as the standard.

[Gharkash]

So, after some reflection, meditation in my garden (japanese style) and some angry comments from my DMaster, i must aknoledge that i dishonored him and his family, and i was asked to commit ritual suicide, by slitting my guts, to save his reputation in the gaming society (real and online). He never talked about warblades being overpowered, nor did he restrict the sources of material to be from the core and the complete series. After this i will proceed to slit my own stomach, so i wont be a disgrace to my DMaster, and will not risk the chance to be deleveled.
*commits seppuku*

[Little Brother]

Oh they are just healbots and blasters, right? :smallwink:

If you want something on the same level as the 3.5 Fighter and totally inferior to the Warblade...there is the Pathfinder Fighter. :smallamused:


Or, just play a gish. Wizard with str/con as favored attributes and only a mediocre int score. Grab a halberd or a spiked chain. Build as follows:

Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/HP 2/Wizard 2/Eldritch Knight 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Whatever. No, you go Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/AbjChamp 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. This way, you can do everything a paladin, or that gish, really, can do, but better, and be sexy while doing so.

You know I played a pure fighter recently . . . and I liked it :eek: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMncnFQkZ5w)Do tell :smalltongue:

Fighter storyBut, really, what could you have done that a Sorcadin in Mythril Chain shirt couldn't do? They could have easily gotten an AC vastly higher, put out good damage, and not be made useless by a pair of wings.

[NeoSeraphi]

But, really, what could you have done that a Sorcadin in Mythril Chain shirt couldn't do?

Slaughtered children for the fun of it, stolen a jewel from the king, led his armies against the Free Peoples of Middle Earth, resisted arrest for jaywalking...

Really, asking "what could you have done that a paladin couldn't do" requires a whole thread by itself. *shakes head* Sorcadin is a decent build in theory, but Lawful Good is something that most players just can't pull off in practice.

[Greenish]

Slaughtered children for the fun of it, stolen a jewel from the king, led his armies against the Free Peoples of Middle Earth, resisted arrest for jaywalking...Paladin of Slaughter. :smalltongue:

[Incriptus]

But, really, what could you have done that a Sorcadin in Mythril Chain shirt couldn't do? They could have easily gotten an AC vastly higher, put out good damage, and not be made useless by a pair of wings.

Well first off, I wouldn't have to explain my paladin or sorcerer spontanoulsy jumped classes in a mechanically sound but awkward fashion :-p

Seriously it was a challange. I like to try to do my best with less than stellar material. I reject the cookie cutter and just eat the raw dough!

"Talking!!!!" . . . that was my characters response to diplomacy :-D

[NeoSeraphi]

Paladin of Slaughter. :smalltongue:

Oh great, now I lose my class features for entering a Pact with a devil, or for agreeing to protect a village for no profit, or for surrendering when I'm surrounded by 8 CR appropriate guards who want to take me in for my various crimes.

Seriously. Extreme alignment restrictions can be a real pain.

[Gharkash]

I would like for people to stay on topic please. This is a thread about fighters, not a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/AbjChamp 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 or any other what-the-****-how-many-prcs build for characters that are NOT fighters.
Thank you.

[Helldog]

So, after some reflection, meditation in my garden (japanese style) and some angry comments from my DMaster, i must aknoledge that i dishonored him and his family, and i was asked to commit ritual suicide, by slitting my guts, to save his reputation in the gaming society (real and online). He never talked about warblades being overpowered, nor did he restrict the sources of material to be from the core and the complete series. After this i will proceed to slit my own stomach, so i wont be a disgrace to my DMaster, and will not risk the chance to be deleveled.
*commits seppuku*
What. No, seriously. What.

[Myth]

So, after some reflection, meditation in my garden (japanese style) and some angry comments from my DMaster, i must aknoledge that i dishonored him and his family, and i was asked to commit ritual suicide, by slitting my guts, to save his reputation in the gaming society (real and online). He never talked about warblades being overpowered, nor did he restrict the sources of material to be from the core and the complete series. After this i will proceed to slit my own stomach, so i wont be a disgrace to my DMaster, and will not risk the chance to be deleveled.
*commits seppuku*

No, now you will ask about Warblade advice :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

Well first off, I wouldn't have to explain my paladin or sorcerer spontanoulsy jumped classes in a mechanically sound but awkward fashionIt doesn't have to be awkward, if you use this little thing called "roleplaying". :smallamused:

Reverse stormwind, ha!

What. No, seriously. What.He misunderstood, and his DM actually lets him play a warblade.

[motoko's ghost]

... How?!
You can't get most of the big damage boosters that an ubercharger uses (since you're not charging), and that would require 50 damage per hit...
And how are you getting teleportation with that many uses per day?

Your kidding me right, there is a metric ton of items/feats/etc that allow teleportation or pounce, decent BAB+power atk+2H weapon+high str its not too hard to pull off, I might have exaggerated but only slightly.