Tome of magic binding and truenaming

[Devronq]

So i just spend a few hours skimming over the tome of magic i didn't really read the shadow magic stuff but i read true naming and binding just the basic mechanics and what they do and such. If seen builds that use truenamers or binders and i know my PC's have zero knowledge of this book i was wondering if someone could just suggest something i could throw at them that uses something from this book. It doesn't have to like rock worlds and do crazy damage but just something that would take them by surprise and make them have difficulty fighting. there lv12 and there moderately optimized and theres 6 of them.

[Psyren]

Binder Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11235)
Shadowcaster Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=498)
Truenamer...cautionary tale? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115)

Read these and then return with questions

[DonutBoy12321]

Truenamer is a trap. It's almost impossible to pull off.

[Tyndmyr]

Truenamer is a trap. It's almost impossible to pull off.

It is not.

Here is the key to truenaming: You want a good truenaming check.

That's it. That's all there is. You need nothing else, nothing at all.

Oh, you only have core and ToM? You don't feel like optimizing enough to use UMD despite it being on your class list? You don't use organizations or like to abuse the action economy? You don't have anyone in your party who casts buffs?

No worries. If you paid attention to the above, you still have +12 from stats(18 int starting+5 levels+5 inherent+6enhancement), +23 from dropping in ranks, +3 from a skill focus, +10 from your Amulet of the Silver Tongue, +5 from your level 1 utterance and +2 from your masterwork item for a total of +55 to your roll at level 20.

The DC for success against a CR 20 target is 55.

Even leaving aside the fact that you have Gate then, you're hitting your DCs. Even if you're not quite that good off, what...you have a failure rate of a bit. Meh. Most spells have saves, or require a touch attack, and are still good spells. Attacks miss. Having things fail a little bit is ok.

So long as you remember to focus on the single skill your class runs on for it's class abilities, you'll be ok. Not doing so is like playing a wizard with 6 int. It's gonna suck. That's how casters work.

[Steward]

I really recommend Binding though. It's probably one of the best-written classes in the game, and definitely the best-written class in the book and I feel that (unlike the other two) any player can pick it up and play it effectively even without a handbook -- although the handbook is a great resource.

Shadowcasting and Truenaming are both really more advanced. Not in the sense that you have to be a genius to pull it off, but they (well, mostly the Truenamer) are extremely poorly written. As in, some of the prestige classes have features that directly negate other features, and some of the feats are so poorly-worded that they only have detrimental effects, and they accidentally left some of the DCs blank in the abilities section (although I believe that last thing was fixed in errata, so make sure you check that section of your copy if you want to play a Truenamer).

[sreservoir]

IME binder is quite difficult to play well without handbook; it's just also difficult to mess up permanently more than with any other character -- if you screw something up today, bind a different vestige tomorrow, no worries.

[DonutBoy12321]

It is not.

Here is the key to truenaming: You want a good truenaming check.

That's it. That's all there is. You need nothing else, nothing at all.

Oh, you only have core and ToM? You don't feel like optimizing enough to use UMD despite it being on your class list? You don't use organizations or like to abuse the action economy? You don't have anyone in your party who casts buffs?

No worries. If you paid attention to the above, you still have +12 from stats(18 int starting+5 levels+5 inherent+6enhancement), +23 from dropping in ranks, +3 from a skill focus, +10 from your Amulet of the Silver Tongue, +5 from your level 1 utterance and +2 from your masterwork item for a total of +55 to your roll at level 20.

The DC for success against a CR 20 target is 55.


Congrats, you can hit a CR 20 monster with an utterance 10 times a day.
That's right, the rule that says that the DC goes up by 2 every time you succeed. So by the end of the day, you can only succeed on a 20, and you can't do much else, besides UMD-mancy which can be done by any old character with a DMG 2.

[Psyren]

The masterwork item is not guaranteed, you can't take 10 and it starts at DC 75 to use your swift.

And even once you land an utterance, they're all pretty weak except the Gate one.

I do think the hysteria against the class is blown out of proportion, but I'd still use a fix myself.

[Incriptus]

Congrats, you can hit a CR 20 monster with an utterance 10 times a day.
That's right, the rule that says that the DC goes up by 2 every time you succeed.

You're complaining that the class can only use each of its "spells" 10 times per day?

I know they're not the greatest abilities [meaning that the majority don't have the option of being exploited in a way not intended] but on pure number of uses that isn't bad

[Morithias]

You forgot to add in a custom 90k +30 competence bonus item.

My favorite truenamer build uses a prestige class in Dragon called "master astrologist"

What you do is, you take 7 levels in wizard, and 10 levels in that class.

At level 10 they get a cap ability that lets them 1/day "increase all factors of a spell by 50%" or something like that.

Basically empower, but it works with ANY numbers.

So now you wipe open your tomb of magic and look at the level 9 wizard truename spells. There's one that for 300 xp lets you call a CR 14 monster. 1/day with this class you can bind a CR 21 monster or lower.

Now whip open either your fiendish codex 1, or your fiendish codex 2. Now note that there are many demon lords and archdevils that have CR of 21 or less in their updated forms.

Call one of them and have them do the fighting.

[Steward]

IME binder is quite difficult to play well without handbook; it's just also difficult to mess up permanently more than with any other character -- if you screw something up today, bind a different vestige tomorrow, no worries.

That's what I meant. With truenaming, if you pick a "bad" utterance, it's pretty hard to 'fix' it (or, worse, if you burn a feat slot on that one feat that increases your Truespeak DC without conferring any advantages). Binders are pretty mutable and the abilities are generally be pretty clear to interpret.

[Lans]

The masterwork item is not guaranteed, you can't take 10 and it starts at DC 75 to use your swift.

And even once you land an utterance, they're all pretty weak except the Gate one.

And Fog from the Void, master of four winds, rebuild item, and analyze item

The words and seek the skys are good for out of combat utility type effects.


Congrats, you can hit a CR 20 monster with an utterance 10 times a day.
That's right, the rule that says that the DC goes up by 2 every time you succeed. So by the end of the day, you can only succeed on a 20, and you can't do much else, besides UMD-mancy which can be done by any old character with a DMG 2.

Oh no! I only have 200 spells per day! What ever will I do? Oh and 15 gates, 17 solid fogs, 5 fog clouds, 17 control winds, and lets say 20 shock waves.

And up to 25 shots of your best 1 use magic item.

Edit @ Tyndmyr- You can also use a polymorph effect for a +10 racial

[Tyndmyr]

Congrats, you can hit a CR 20 monster with an utterance 10 times a day.
That's right, the rule that says that the DC goes up by 2 every time you succeed. So by the end of the day, you can only succeed on a 20, and you can't do much else, besides UMD-mancy which can be done by any old character with a DMG 2.

Yes. At that point, you have 20 utterances from the one lexicon alone, and a goodly sprinkling from the other two lexicons.

So, that's something like 600 castings.

If you approach that in a single day, your DM hates casters, and the wizard is also crying himself to sleep.

Oh, also, your friendly spells go off Hd, not CR, so if anyone in your party has LA, you can target them easier. Also, you have a +2 bonus for targeting yourself(standard class feature, no optimization required).

Also, if you land your typical nukes(reversed words of nurturing) and the target does not die...you don't have to recast on the following round. You just opt to reactivate them as a standard action and you deal the same damage again. This does nothing to your DCs.


The masterwork item is not guaranteed, you can't take 10 and it starts at DC 75 to use your swift.

And even once you land an utterance, they're all pretty weak except the Gate one.

I do think the hysteria against the class is blown out of proportion, but I'd still use a fix myself.

Without the MW tool, you have a whopping 5% failure chance. Meh. That's still quite low by casting standards.

Taking 10 was not assumed. The swift is 2 castings/round. You don't need to have quicken to be T3. Having the option there is nice for those of us who enjoy optimizing, and it CAN be made awesome.

The same is true of the +5 to overcome SR. It's useful even on such an unoptimized build as this one. It's a class feature you get by default, so if it's not relevant, you can just ignore it, but if the SR poses a more significant problem to overcome than your DC...you can use it. It only ever improves things by being available.


You forgot to add in a custom 90k +30 competence bonus item.

I didn't forget. The entire point of this is that the class is playable without notable shenanigans or relying on heavy splatbook diving. Oh yes, either of these things DO help quite a lot, just as they do for any other class of note, but it's still a functional thing without them.


That's what I meant. With truenaming, if you pick a "bad" utterance, it's pretty hard to 'fix' it (or, worse, if you burn a feat slot on that one feat that increases your Truespeak DC without conferring any advantages). Binders are pretty mutable and the abilities are generally be pretty clear to interpret.

Honestly, the bad utterances are sufficiently bad that when I handed the book to a first time player, he looked at the first level options and was like "+1 AC or -1 AC is one choice....and +2 attack or -2 attack is another. Why the hell would I ever take the first one?" After we all shrugged, he decided on the word of nurturing because "it does damage AND heals". Given that the list is really, really short, and the good choices are really intuitive(noobs tend to go blasty, etc), I've not found bad picks to be a concern.



Edit @ Tyndmyr- You can also use a polymorph effect for a +10 racial

*shrug* The first time player in my group had a....+56 if I remember correctly. At level six. Before UMD. He rolled the dice just for funsies. Granted, we play at a pretty notable op level, and a "long combat" is one that hits three full rounds, but the guy was basically batman(Necropolitan Whisper Gnome).

You're an int based class with a short skill list. It's basically truenaming, UMD, and knowledge skills. It's REALLY hard to screw that up. You basically just put points into everything on your list. Also, you get enough free skill focus(knowledge) feats(four) that you're gonna be crushing it on knowledge. Hell, with knowledge devotion, you could even be a somewhat decent gish.

UMD is pretty much always great, too.

Hell, you even have a relative lack of dead levels. A lot of the abilities may not be spectacular(another +3 to a knowledge check, wee), but it does mean a nice influx of new things.

Note also that, for the high op minded folks, truenaming holds some fun stuff. Like...being the best dispeller in the game. This is CRAZY useful.

[Zaq]

By and large, I agree with Tyndmyr. Yeah, getting a high Truespeak check isn't THAT hard with any but the most uncooperative of GMs. That's going to take the majority of your resources, but it's not like it's impossible. It's just that you have very few truly good options for utterances (most of which are clustered around the lower levels, so you really feel the pinch as you level up), and the Law of Sequence makes the good utterances you get annoying to use. And yeah, most Truenamers with any sense of optimization look pretty darn similar, which can chafe.

Once again, it's not that Truenamers are unplayable. It's just that they're usually frustrating, disappointing, or both (disproportionately so). They're rarely worth the effort, though they are a pretty good way to play an optimized caster-type in a low-op group ("optimized" meaning "a character you put a lot of thought and effort into," not "an extremely powerful character").

[Little Brother]

Edit @ Tyndmyr- You can also use a polymorph effect for auto-success as racial ability.Fixed it for ya.

[Psyren]

And Fog from the Void, master of four winds, rebuild item, and analyze item

The words and seek the skys are good for out of combat utility type effects.

Solid Fog is nice, but less so when successfully casting it keeps you from casting it again for 100 rounds. Ditto for Mt4W. Even Binder abilities aren't that harsh.

Rebuild Item's usefulness is contingent on your DM ruling that expended magic items are destroyed. This is reasonable but should not be assumed. If all it does is fix broken items, and your DM doesn't even sunder or send rust monsters after you that often, then it's barely worth the slot. And finally, Analyze Item is rendered redundant by a 1500gp item.

So again, the larger problem is the utterances themselves, not so much the mechanic.