What tier is this monk revision? (3.5)

[Seharvepernfan]

As PHB monk, except as follows (not putting up a table, it's not complicated).

EDIT: Revised this revision in post #63.

-6 skill points
-speed bonuses are halved
-starting at one at 4th, and increasing by one every 4 levels, a monk gains DR magic (example: DR 3/magic at 12th).
-at 5th level, a monk may, 1/day/5 levels, take a move action as a sudden action.
-Wholeness of body is now fast healing 5, up to as many rounds as you have monk levels, can be used in one round increments at your discretion as a free action. At 14th, the fast healing becomes regeneration.
-at 10th, the monk gains DR/Anarchic to match his DR/magic.
-at 10th, a monk may, 1/day/5 levels, take a standard action as a sudden action (separate pool).
-Abundant Step can be used 1/day/5 levels.
-at 15th, a monk may, 1/day/5 levels, take a full attack as a sudden action (separate pool).
-Quivering Palm doesn't exist.
-Empty Body can be entered as a sudden action and left as a free action.
-Perfect Self now grants DR 10/Adamantine instead of magic, and her fists are considered adamantine if it is beneficial to do so.

I made these changes for my homebrew, and I just want to know how it compares to other classes.

[hex0]

Still the same. Actually some parts are weaker. The monks main weakness is being a skirmisher that can't hit, I suppose.

[Reluctance]

Charge builds are T4, and they do sick amounts of damage. The reason is that they only have one shtick, and it's easily defeated. No matter how powerful that shtick may be.

Your monk doesn't cover the lack of ability synergy that monks face, nor does it give them more actual options. It's a bit better in that you can now get more oomph out of them. (Most notably, a bonus set of full attacks is nothing too sneeze at.) They just come too late and have too few daily uses to have any real impact.

[candycorn]

Any monk revision I began, would start with:

Focused Insight (Ex): As a student of intuition, a monk may apply his Wisdom modifier as an insight bonus to their attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes or monk weapons, as well as an insight bonus to armor class. At level 5, a monk may add his wisdom modifier as an insight bonus to each of his saving throws. At level 10, the monk may apply his wisdom modifier as a deflection bonus to his armor class.

After that, I'd likely add:

Mystic Connection (Su): At each even numbered level, a monk's unarmed strikes gain a measure of mystical energy. The monk may apply a +1 enhancement to his unarmed strike attack and damage at each point (maximum enchancement bonus is +5). Beginning at level 4, the monk may instead apply enhancements to his fists, as if they were magical melee weapons (though they must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to do so). A monk's unarmed strikes may never be given an enhancement which would allow them to be used as a ranged weapon. Thus, a level 8 monk could choose a +4 enhancement, a +3 flaming enhancement, or a +2 flaming and Ghost touch enhancement. A monk may alter these selections with 1 hour of meditation and a successful DC 20 Concentration check.

[Myth]

-6 skill points
nice
-speed bonuses are halved
bad
-starting at one at 4th, and increasing by one every 4 levels, a monk gains DR magic (example: DR 3/magic at 12th).
Useless (bad)
-at 5th level, a monk may, 1/day/5 levels, take a move action as a sudden action.
I take it you mean swift action? I'm not aware of any kind of "sudden" action. If it's that, then this is nice. But there are items that grant this as well.
-Wholeness of body is now fast healing 5, up to as many rounds as you have monk levels, can be used in one round increments at your discretion as a free action. At 14th, the fast healing becomes regeneration.
Fast healing is useful only out of combat. There is a Cleric spell (the Vigor line) that gives this without the abysmal duration here. Regeneration doesn't work well with a duration..
-at 10th, the monk gains DR/Anarchic to match his DR/magic.
nice
-at 10th, a monk may, 1/day/5 levels, take a standard action as a sudden action (separate pool).
great if sudden=swift
-Abundant Step can be used 1/day/5 levels.
nice
-at 15th, a monk may, 1/day/5 levels, take a full attack as a sudden action (separate pool).
great
-Quivering Palm doesn't exist.
who cares anyway
-Empty Body can be entered as a sudden action and left as a free action.
nice
-Perfect Self now grants DR 10/Adamantine instead of magic, and her fists are considered adamantine if it is beneficial to do so.
nice

It's somewhat better. The extra actions are all great except that they are based on your level of Monk, forcing you to take basically Monk 20 or a PrC that advances these features. It messes up the multiclassing.

Issues still to be fixed however:

- Monks being MAD
- Crappy BAB
- Inability to use PA effectively
- Mobility issues (needs something like pounce)
- Doing stuff other than "I hit him"
- Not being able to increase the damage of his fists trough class features
- Getting something unique that an unarmed fighter (let alone an unarmed swordsage) can't get that makes them good at hitting htings.

Compare your Monk with a Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 10. That guy can do all sorts of nice things, all day long, not level/5. Island in Time + Time Stands Still makes this version of the monk cry.

[gkathellar]

By sudden action, do you mean immediate action?

Assuming you do, it's still Tier 5-6.

[candycorn]

In order to get to tier 4, it needs to be able to do one thing really well.

To get to Tier 3, it needs to be competent in many areas, or quite good in a few. Good examples are things like Dragonfire Adept and Crusader. Factotum also falls here.

Tier 2 and above, they need to be able to effectively end encounters with a single well-placed ability. For example: Ogre (CR 3). Wizard (level 3): Grease spell. 3 wolves (CR 3-4ish). Wizard (Level 3): Web. There's others, but to get to top tiers, you need to be able to make encounters cry.

[Seharvepernfan]

I meant swift, not sudden. Where it's a free action, but you can only do one per round?

[Lans]

I'd say its better than the base monk, addresses the mobility issues, which makes his flurry better, the DR is meh, I would give it at every 3 levels.
Look at the spell reflection, invisible fist, and various variant bonus feats and add them to it at varies levels. You might want to nerf the invisible fist to just concealment at first, then scale it to blink.

I also recommend Flurry and Decisive strike as standard actions.

You might want to just give the monk free VoP benefits

[erikun]

It would be hard to say it has improved much. The biggest thing I see is the 1/day/5 levels abilities, which roughly means once per combat assuming four combats a day. At 20th level. Which really means once per combat for a few encounters and no use in the others.

Fast Healing 5 (or Regeneration 5) for only 20 rounds is not impressive at all. That's only 100 HP throughout the whole day, and not enough to matter round-per-round during combat.

[gkathellar]

I meant swift, not sudden. Where it's a free action, but you can only do one per round?

Well, considering that the swift action is the immediate action's underachieving little brother, it's still Tier 5-6 because most of these bonuses are inconsequential at the levels they're coming in.

[SowZ]

First, I would bring the BAB to full. Monk does nothing but fight. They have no casting. Their fighting style is straight up. Why don't they have full BAB? Next, do something about their flurry of suckiness. Either that, or give enough bonus to make up for it. The Focused Insight idea is good. Also, monks are very MAD. What can be done about this? Well, Focused Insight makes strength a little less important. You can have the Wis damage replace the Str damage and give Monks Weapon Finesse to unarmed strikes. Then it can focus on Wis, Dex. This should give them a higher AC, too, which is reasonably nice. Mystical Connection further makes Wisdom a very primary stat. I mean, without completely remaking it, it still won't get above Tier 4.

[Incanur]

Lawl at this or the standard monk being tier 6. No way, no how.

[Doc Roc]

Lawl at this or the standard monk being tier 6. No way, no how.

Ze burden of proof, she is yours, my frenk.

[Greenish]

Fast Healing 5 (or Regeneration 5) for only 20 rounds is not impressive at all. That's only 100 HP throughout the whole day, and not enough to matter round-per-round during combat.Doling up the Regeneration in small bits to only suffer non-lethal damage might have some utility. Otherwise, meh.

[Incanur]

Ze burden of proof, she is yours, my frenk.

How so (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)?

[Tanuki Tales]

Ze burden of proof, she is yours, my frenk.

Did the Tier system get updated? Because the Monk was always Tier 5.

[Ceaon]

The monk is tier 5 and has been tier 5 since the inception of the 3.5 class tier system.

Edit: And although these changes improved the monk slightly, I don't think it's enough to affect its tier.

[Psyren]

It's T5 not T6, but is that really worth arguing over? It's like saying "Ha! Joke's on you! You said I drive a Yugo, but I actually drive a Daewoo!"

[Incanur]

I feel exaggerated claims of how completely the weaker and less flexible classes suck harm our understanding the complex dynamics at play.

[Big Fau]

As PHB monk, except as follows (not putting up a table, it's not complicated).

-6 skill points

Buff, but it lacks class skills to put those points to very good use.


-speed bonuses are halved

Nerf.


-starting at one at 4th, and increasing by one every 4 levels, a monk gains DR magic (example: DR 3/magic at 12th).

Completely, utterly useless. 4th level is when everything starts using magic weapons or has DR/Magic itself (which defeats other DR/Magic by default). And DR 5/Magic is insignificant to the point of not being worthy of pencil lead.


-at 5th level, a monk may, 1/day/5 levels, take a move action as a swift action.

Possibly the most useful ability you put here. Actually very useful.


-Wholeness of body is now fast healing 5, up to as many rounds as you have monk levels, can be used in one round increments at your discretion as a free action. At 14th, the fast healing becomes regeneration.

It still isn't that good, but much better than Wholeness of Body as written.


-at 10th, the monk gains DR/Anarchic to match his DR/magic.

You mean DR 5/Chaotic and Magic? Still relatively trivial at the high levels, but at least it's worth writing down now.


-at 10th, a monk may, 1/day/5 levels, take a standard action as a swift action (separate pool).

See the above comment on this ability.


-Abundant Step can be used 1/day/5 levels.

4/day isn't much, but at least it's something.


-at 15th, a monk may, 1/day/5 levels, take a full attack as a sudden action (separate pool).

The single best ability you put here.


-Quivering Palm doesn't exist.

...It existed before-hand?


-Empty Body can be activated as a swift action and ended as a free action.

Helpful, but the uses/day and level it is gained at are still a problem.


-Perfect Self now grants DR 10/Adamantine instead of magic, and her fists are considered adamantine if it is beneficial to do so.

So DR 10/Chaotic and Adamantine? Now it's actually useful, if still easily ignored (the damage output at this level is supposed to be in the hundreds, so 10/attack may buy the Monk a round at most).


Overall, the class would still be Tier 5. It would just be comparable to the non-Core Fighter, which is capable of being optimized up to Tier 4.

[Incanur]

Upon reflection, I think the swift action tricks make this variant tier 4. It could conceivably even be tier 3. :smallwink: The 15th-level ability approximates Times Stands Still, which warblades and swordsages don't get until 17 and can't nova with as easily.

[Siosilvar]

Upon reflection, I think the swift action tricks make this variant tier 4. It could conceivably even be tier 3. :smallwink: The 15th-level ability approximates Times Stands Still, which warblades and swordsages don't get until 17 and can't nova with as easily.

Free actions are only good if you've got something useful to do with them.

[Doug Lampert]

Free actions are only good if you've got something useful to do with them.

The class as rewritten would be a killer in Gesalt games. Mnk15/Clc15 for example. 9 extra actions of various types per day, up to and including full attacks or standard actions. That's nice.

But the basic problem with monk is that its a semi-mystical class (plenty of its abilities roughly duplicate spells or are enhancement), which doesn't get anything as powerful or versatile as a level appropriate spell slot.

1st level you get an AC bonus which is hard pressed to match a shield spell or a mage armor spell.
3rd level you get something like Longstrider always on.
4th level you get a badly nerfed version of feather fall.
7th level you get something comparable to cure moderate wounds once per day (self only).
9th level your fast movement is up to Expeditious retreat speeds.
11th level you don't need Heroes' Feast to be immune to poison. You don't get any of the other benefits and the cleric can do this for the whole party if he wants to.
12th level you can dimension door once a day with a caster level of 6, so you've got a power a wizard can do better at level 7.
13th level the cleric can no longer heal you and buff spells are a problem.
15th level is quivering palm, enough said. Would you really take this over an 8th level spell? And to add insult to injury it's only once a week.
17th level you get Tongues, but in a horrible mistake the monk version is actually BETTER than the 3rd level spell it's roughly duplicating. How'd that happen. It's a largely pointless ability that you get when the full casters get gate, but it's still something a caster will have trouble duplicating.
19th level you get something comparable to ethrealness, it's self only (unlike the spell), and the total duration is shorter, but you can split it up, so this MIGHT actually be comparable to a weak level 9 spell. Unfortunately...
20th level you become an outsider. You get totally pointless DR and are no longer a valid target for many buff spells. If a spellcaster wants to be an outsider there's this thing called shapechange that the real casters get that lets them choose an actually useful outsider to be.

Go through that list, and make the abilities level appropriate and you might well hit Tier 4. Especially if flurry were a standard action.

Full up feather fall is not too good at level 4! You don't need to gratuitously nerf it with a 20' limit and needing an adjacent wall.

Cure critical wounds or something similar is not too good at level 7.

Dimension Door once per day at a nerfed caster level is not good at level 12.

Tongue of the Sun and the Moon ability would not be overpowered at level 9.

Fast movement is nice, but if movement is supposed to be a class feature then by level 9 I should have more or less at will flight comparable to overland flight or wind walk available. A permanent self-only expeditious retreat is an insult.

Keep going and ask "when would this ability be good", and give it then, and then add abilities to avoid dead levels.

[Mephit]

Upon reflection, I think the swift action tricks make this variant tier 4. It could conceivably even be tier 3. :smallwink: The 15th-level ability approximates Times Stands Still, which warblades and swordsages don't get until 17 and can't nova with as easily.

Factotums do this several times per encounter at level 8, and they could arguably do more with it.
I like the extra skill points and it's a step in the right direction, but like Myth said, the inherent problems of the monk are still there.

[Incanur]

Factotums do this several times per encounter at level 8, and they could arguably do more with it.

Yeah, and they're solidly in tier 3. But they don't get to full attack as a swift action at level 15.

[Lans]

Have you considered making the extra action abilities per encounter?

[FMArthur]

Yeah I was thinking they seemed far too few. Seriously when it can't measure up to a single maneuver taken with a feat because you have such limited uses of it, there's something wrong. Monks shouldn't have per-day abilities at all in my opinion, but if you insist on it, they should get enough to be used at least once per combat at a reasonable level.

I actually do like the idea of these Swift things being Immediate actions instead. That would definitely be a unique and powerful niche for a monk to carve out for itself, and I don't think it's too out of line given that it doesn't really have much power on its own. If this were done you could do per-encounter usage and have them come out of a scaling pool of 1-5 points or so, with a point cost hierarchy of 1/2/3 for each ability respectively. Mobility and action supremacy seems like it should be the domain of the legendary monk figure, after all.

[Daer]

I love what they did to monks on dungeons&dragons online. They gave them elemental stances and strikes and with comboing strikes monks are able to do other effects, some harmful to enemies some buffing the party for little time.

also then on 3rd level they get either light fist that lets you curse enemy so that everytime someone hits that cursed enemy she drains 1-2hp from it.(and extra damage vs undeads)
while dark fist makes enemyes shaken and does extra damage to living.

Though not sure how easy the Ki per hitting things system would be in pnp, but after plaing ddo monk i just can't go to d&d monk.

Oh and enchantable handwraps to weapon slot!

[sonofzeal]

I love what they did to monks on dungeons&dragons online. They gave them elemental stances and strikes and with comboing strikes monks are able to do other effects, some harmful to enemies some buffing the party for little time.

also then on 3rd level they get either light fist that lets you curse enemy so that everytime someone hits that cursed enemy she drains 1-2hp from it.(and extra damage vs undeads)
while dark fist makes enemyes shaken and does extra damage to living.

Though not sure how easy the Ki per hitting things system would be in pnp, but after plaing ddo monk i just can't go to d&d monk.

Oh and enchantable handwraps to weapon slot!
Agree, DDO made Monks awesome! They had to change the class pretty heavily for it though. Every Monk now has basic Monk features, an animal path, an elemental path (or two!), and Light/Dark.

I currently have a Light Monk of the Clever Monkey, going Fire Path / Earth Path.

The Ki system would need tweaking, but elements of DDO monks could be back-ported without too much difficulty.....

[Daer]

Oh and how could i forgot wiping enemies out of existence with void strike or charming enemy with void+dark+void combo finisher :)

[candycorn]

Yeah, and they're solidly in tier 3. But they don't get to full attack as a swift action at level 15.

No, they don't. But they can use extra spells as a free action at level 8. And they get a bucketful of those spells, which can change daily. And they depend on precisely one stat for offense and defense. Intelligence. Other stats help, but are ultimately about as important as strength to a wizard. And they get all skills in class.

That's why factotum is Tier 3. They're amazingly versatile.

[JackRackham]

No, they don't. But they can use extra spells as a free action at level 8. And they get a bucketful of those spells, which can change daily. And they depend on precisely one stat for offense and defense. Intelligence. Other stats help, but are ultimately about as important as strength to a wizard. And they get all skills in class.

That's why factotum is Tier 3. They're amazingly versatile.

The Factotum also has a higher power ceiling. A factotum can end an encounter in one round a couple times/day (and is still versatile enough to contribute in the others). A monk, even this reworked version, can't (and isn't).

[Alienist]

I feel exaggerated claims of how completely the weaker and less flexible classes suck harm our understanding the complex dynamics at play.

I don't think you're going to get anywhere arguing about the utility of the tier system with this crowd.

You might as well go to Westboro Baptist and try to convince them of the advantages of atheism.

I think if you cherry pick phrases from the Tier System, you get some interesting results:



My general philosophy is that the only balance that really matters in D&D is the interclass balance between the various PCs in a group.


This is a great initial premise. Lets assume its truthiness.

Now lets think about it some more.

...

But wait, it's highly subjective! Because any true measure of interclass balance between the PCs is going to have to take into account all sorts of optimisation issues, such as whether the player is an idiot or an uber-optimised-munchkin. Other factors are going to come into it like prestige classes etc.

Lets think about it some more

...



Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.


It is this implicit definition - that playing well equates to breaking the campaign, that I find "intriguing". And by "intriguing" I mean "disturbing". It isn't just conjecture though, there are plenty of threads in the playground about exactly that - breaking the game.

If viewed in that light, yes, the Monk is 'weak' because even when optimised it doesn't 'break the game'.

However, look at this:



Q: So what exactly is this system measuring? Raw Power? Then why is the Barbarian lower than the Duskblade, when the Barbarian clearly does more damage?

A: The Tier System is not specifically ranking Power or Versitility (though those are what ends up being the big factors). It's ranking the ability of a class to achieve what you want in any given situation.


I knew I'd seen that quote somewhere. Ostensibly the tier system is not about Power or (sic) Versistility (read as: flexibility), but achieving goals.

Never mind that in order to get to that quote I had to wade through 24 other uses of the word power. Yeah, the 25th use of the word power is to explain how it's not about power. :small confused: ... right.

Anyway, apart from that endless source of confusion, :smallfurious: allow me to extract and emphasise this:



It's ranking the ability of a class to achieve what you want in any given situation.


Let me change it slightly



It's ranking the ability of a class to achieve what you want in A given situation.


E.g. the DM plonks you into situation X - does your class have any feature that lets you achieve your goals. If so, how hard was it?

THIS

This is why melee focused classes end up on the bottom rungs of the tier system.

SUPERMAN

... would end up ranking badly on the tier system, because he only has a few schticks. You have a situation that doesn't involve using the powers of flight, strength or bouncing bullets off you? Well, call Batman instead of Superchump. Because Batman always has the answers. Also, a 10% discount special on Kryptonite this week only!

However, there's a missing ingredient in all this.

It is the one main reason (okay, maybe the second reason after the many misuses of the word 'power' to explain what the system is actually measuring) that people get confused about all this.

It is the reason I shifted that word around. It is that a true universal tier system would need to consider not just the PC/PC interactions, but the most important (and missing ingredient here) the DM/PC interactions.

IF

... your DM mainly/only throws combat encounters at the party, then someone will be rightfully and easily confused about the whole tier system thing, because the Barbarian clearly out-damages the Bard! (Or whatever).

If you have a melee heavy campaign where the all seeing, all flying, all flurrying Monk does 20d6 with each blow and has never yet failed a saving throw, then you may struggle with the tier system. And you may consider the Monk a lot more broken than the Wizard, simply because the person playing the wizard took a look at time-stop and decided it was 'too complicated' and stuck with simple stuff like meteor-swarm instead.

If moving really fast is 'broken' in your campaign, the Monk is your man.

If you're in a campaign that is role-playing heavy, melee light, then none of your melee powers are relevant. The monk might be lower than tier 5 in that case. Even the tome of battle classes might hit tier 6 in an environment like that.

If your DM loves the D&D skills system, then in your group classes with lots of skills will rank highly. You might rank the cloistered cleric higher than the normal cleric because of this. (You shouldn't, because there's a second level spell that makes skill checks irrelevant, but hey).

Personally, I think the classes with lots of skill points are slightly over-rated in JaronK's system, probably because at some point he played in a campaign where the DM loved skill monkeys.

The TL:DR version of the tier system would go like this:

"I have transcended mere skills" > "I have lots of skills" > "What's a skill?"

But the underlying point there is that if one classes' features (usually spells or psionics or similar) render your class feature obsolete (e.g. skill monkey), then the first class should be ranked higher in the tier system.

The situations that matter are the ones your DM throws at you. The tier system needs to be interpreted in that light. How many skill checks do the players in your group make? How many fights do they get into? Has the DM banned some of the more problematic spells? Does the wizard have to go cap in hand to the DM to get new scrolls to add to the spell book, or does he just put them on his sheet, deduct the gold and not even bother telling the DM?

It's not just the big bad obviously broken spells that are campaign wrecking either. There was a story recently about a player being booted out of a campaign because he had access to Teleport! Don't think that's an isolated case either, Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit would both have been a lot shorter if Gandalf had been arsed to prepare that, instead of casting multiple Feeblemind's on his own side as a "practical joke".

In short, higher tiers tend to favour magic a lot more, because there are (potentially) a lot more spells that allow you to to achieve what you want in A given situation than there are given situations that can be solved by being good at breaking bricks with your hands/head.


Now, for the original poster, I don't think you're going to get people to like the Monk if you just shuffle some stuff around. Giving him more skill points would bump him up the tiers (maybe to high 5 from low five), but you have to give him 8 or 10 points instead of 6 for people round here to really take notice.

If you want to take him from tier 5 to tier 3, you need more drastic action than that though.

Look at the Bard, now look at your Monk, now look at the Bard. The Bard has spells and is tier 3. The monk does not have spells and is tier suck. This suggests an easy fix: simply start by giving the Monk the same spell casting (except divine) as the Bard. Then allow the Monk to sacrifice an attack off the end of his flurry in order to be able to cast one spell that round as a swift action instead of a standard action. Don't worry, it isn't broken (Paladins get spells as swifts, and they're tier 5).

Incidentally, that also fixes the biggest problem with combat healing, that it isn't action efficient. Allowing swift/immediate healing spells and the feat that maximises them would make a healbot once again a valued member of the party.

An alternative if you don't like a 'Mystic Monk' is to look at the Tome of Battle classes. They're all tier 3. Simply go throw their lists of manoeuvres, and at each level allow the Monk to pick from a shortlist of two, that he can use whenever he wants (or for the really broken ones, require him to expend a stunning fart). This would give good opportunities for role-play as well, since you can restrict the manoeuvres to certain martial art styles, have to go learn from the ascetic up the top of (insert distant mountain) etc.

[Gnaeus]

IF

... your DM mainly/only throws combat encounters at the party, then someone will be rightfully and easily confused about the whole tier system thing, because the Barbarian clearly out-damages the Bard! (Or whatever).

Except for those only combat encounters where the barbarian is totally useless because he can't fight the flying/invisible/incorporeal/super high AC or DR/otherwise protected enemies. The bard, like the other Tier 3s, can still fight under those circumstances. Yes, in a game with nothing but on the ground slugfests against humanoid opponents with easy terrain the barbarian probably goes up a tier, just as the rogue probably goes down a tier in a campaign with no magic marts where he only fights undead/constructs/oozes.

What the tier system is telling an educated DM in the Barbarian/Bard party is that the barbarian needs a certain kind of encounter to contribute, while the bard can probably help no matter what is going on. This is true.


If you have a melee heavy campaign where the all seeing, all flying, all flurrying Monk does 20d6 with each blow and has never yet failed a saving throw, then you may struggle with the tier system. And you may consider the Monk a lot more broken than the Wizard, simply because the person playing the wizard took a look at time-stop and decided it was 'too complicated' and stuck with simple stuff like meteor-swarm instead.

Well, first off, the monk you describe is not a monk as per the PHB. If you gave monks flight, flurry on a standard, true seeing, and ways to make all their saves (Because honestly, buffed casters are better than monks at making saves, too.), then monk would certainly go to tier 3 (maybe really high 4).

Second, JaronK mentions differences in optimization, and what you describe would certainly qualify. Either the monk player is very highly optimized compared to party, or the wizard player is very badly optimized compared to party, and either way an adjustment would be in order.


If moving really fast is 'broken' in your campaign, the Monk is your man.

And no one really disagrees with that. Certainly JaronK doesn't. (Assuming, of course, that the monk is actually good at moving really fast, which he isn't compared with some other classes, but anyway.) He out and out says that tier 5s are best for some games. So when you argue that tier 5s are best for some games, you aren't actually arguing with the tier system.


The situations that matter are the ones your DM throws at you. The tier system needs to be interpreted in that light.

Yes. This is absolutely true.


Has the DM banned some of the more problematic spells?

Argument fail. The tier system measures the power ranking of the classes per the rules. If I rewrite those rules, obviously the tier system doesn't apply. If barbarians can fly and time stop and Fireball is the best 9th level spell, we are no longer talking about the same thing.


Does the wizard have to go cap in hand to the DM to get new scrolls to add to the spell book, or does he just put them on his sheet, deduct the gold and not even bother telling the DM?

Here we agree. The tier system does make some assumptions about WBL and available gear (JaronK says it doesn't, but it does). These may not be appropriate to your game. These assumptions can change the tiers of some classes. Of course, in this specific case you mention, either the DM is restricting magic marts in general (which is usually better for the high tiers (who don't need much gear and can make what they need) than the low tiers) or he is restricting wizard spell access in specific as a nerf, possibly because he understands how tiers work and he is trying to improve balance.

[Incanur]

I don't think you're going to get anywhere arguing about the utility of the tier system with this crowd.

I'm not arguing against the tier system - with which I'm quite familiar and generally supportive - only trying to keep things in perspective.


E.g. the DM plonks you into situation X - does your class have any feature that lets you achieve your goals. If so, how hard was it?

THIS

This is why melee focused classes end up on the bottom rungs of the tier system.

Sure thing. A nice summary.


SUPERMAN

... would end up ranking badly on the tier system, because he only has a few schticks. You have a situation that doesn't involve using the powers of flight, strength or bouncing bullets off you? Well, call Batman instead of Superchump. Because Batman always has the answers. Also, a 10% discount special on Kryptonite this week only!

This depends completely on which era of Superman and which writer you're talking about. Supes does anything and everything under certain writers. An experienced D&D player with even the minimal Superman powerset would prove difficult to handle at the table. ("I use superspeed... all the time! This makes the planar shepherd look like molasses.")


IF

... your DM mainly/only throws combat encounters at the party, then someone will be rightfully and easily confused about the whole tier system thing, because the Barbarian clearly out-damages the Bard! (Or whatever).

Hold on a second. Why do you assume damage matters more than anything else in combat? :smallconfused:


The monk might be lower than tier 5 in that case. Even the tome of battle classes might hit tier 6 in an environment like that.

Both the monk and ToB classes get diplomacy. If the warblade reaches tier 6, where does that leave the fighter?


You might rank the cloistered cleric higher than the normal cleric because of this.

A lot of people do this already, and not without reason.


Don't worry, it isn't broken (Paladins get spells as swifts, and they're tier 5).

I maintain that the paladin is tier 4, especially with goodies from Complete Champion. Paladins can approach the barbarian in charging damage while at same time providing minor utility from spells and serving as the party face. That's tier 4.

[123456789blaaa]

actually when jaronk says "played well" he means "played to their full potential" not "this is a good way to play in game. Also the monk isn't weak because it can't break the game. The duskblade is tier 3, jaronks ideal tier balance point and he can't break the game. Monks are weak because they have a host of problems inherent in them, for example MAD and unsynergistic class abilities.

[Big Fau]

actually when jaronk says "played well" he means "played to their full potential" not "this is a good way to play in game. Also the monk isn't weak because it can't break the game. The duskblade is tier 3, jaronks ideal tier balance point and he can't break the game. Monks are weak because they have a host of problems inherent in them, for example MAD and unsynergistic class abilities.

I just want to point out that the bolded part is not true: Every class in the game can break the game, but only the Tier 2 and up classes can do so with their own innate class features. The rest usually rely on magic items or skills to do so, and neither of those are class features (despite class skills, everyone and their mother can break the game with those so they don't count towards class features unless it is a selling point of the class in question).

[SowZ]

I'm not arguing against the tier system - with which I'm quite familiar and generally supportive - only trying to keep things in perspective.



Sure thing. A nice summary.



This depends completely on which era of Superman and which writer you're talking about. Supes does anything and everything under certain writers. An experienced D&D player with even the minimal Superman powerset would prove difficult to handle at the table. ("I use superspeed... all the time! This makes the planar shepherd look like molasses.")



Hold on a second. Why do you assume damage matters more than anything else in combat? :smallconfused:



Both the monk and ToB classes get diplomacy. If the warblade reaches tier 6, where does that leave the fighter?



A lot of people do this already, and not without reason.



I maintain that the paladin is tier 4, especially with goodies from Complete Champion. Paladins can approach the barbarian in charging damage while at same time providing minor utility from spells and serving as the party face. That's tier 4.

Tier 4 is usually doing one thing and decently. The Paladin does nothing very well. They have some utility, but is horrible casting. They have some combat, but they suck at it. Tier 5 are classes that aren't really good at anything and Paladin fits the bill, IMO. Obviously, built well, a Paladin can be useful. That's true of everything. I see where you are coming from, but his flexibility is not fantastic.

[Incanur]

Tier 4 is usually doing one thing and decently.

Oh really?


Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.

Note the bolded part.


They have some combat, but they suck at it.

They charge quite well. Particularly with a good mount - think dire lion - and good spells - think find the gap or rhino's rush - paladins can dish out serious damage.

[SowZ]

Oh really?



Note the bolded part.



They charge quite well. Particularly with a good mount - think dire lion - and good spells - think find the gap or rhino's rush - paladins can dish out serious damage.

Doing one thing and doing it competently is Tier 4. Obviously, I was referring to the first part. I don't think Paladin qualifies for the second part since I don't find the utility is done to a reasonable degree of comptence. I suppose, depending on the campaign, things like Detect Evil and the extra abilities vs. undead could be more useful.

If you optimize your charging well, I could see that bringing a Paladin up to Tier four on a mount with charging being done. I haven't seen a Paladin optimize that in person, but I have seen charge builds do well in the past. But the lack of bonus feats and low level of spells, (which aren't realized until level 4 anyway and could be replicated by magic items cheaply,) makes me doubt that a Paladin charge build would even be as good as a Fighter charge build of the same optimization. So I still think it isn't any stronger than a Fighter.

When I say they suck at combat, maybe I spoke out of turn. I mean that relatively.

[123456789blaaa]

I just want to point out that the bolded part is not true: Every class in the game can break the game, but only the Tier 2 and up classes can do so with their own innate class features. The rest usually rely on magic items or skills to do so, and neither of those are class features (despite class skills, everyone and their mother can break the game with those so they don't count towards class features unless it is a selling point of the class in question).

Well thats what i meant, Probably should have been more clear.

[Gnaeus]

If you optimize your charging well, I could see that bringing a Paladin up to Tier four on a mount with charging being done. I haven't seen a Paladin optimize that in person, but I have seen charge builds do well in the past. But the lack of bonus feats and low level of spells, (which aren't realized until level 4 anyway and could be replicated by magic items cheaply,) makes me doubt that a Paladin charge build would even be as good as a Fighter charge build of the same optimization. So I still think it isn't any stronger than a Fighter.

But often the cheapest and best way to replicate the low level paladin spells is with a wand in a wand chamber in a weapon. How do you duplicate Rhinos Rush or Swift Bless Weapon for 850 gp. How do you get the ability to charge through a crowd of mooks to target a boss cheaper than a wand of Zeal? Paladins have a lot of very nice abilities accessable via wands that a fighter either can't use at all, or only for very high costs.

[Alienist]

I'm not arguing against the tier system - with which I'm quite familiar and generally supportive - only trying to keep things in perspective.


Indeed. I didn't say you were arguing against the tier system. I agree that things should be kept in perspective.



Sure thing. A nice summary.


Thanks.



This depends completely on which era of Superman and which writer you're talking about. Supes does anything and everything under certain writers. An experienced D&D player with even the minimal Superman powerset would prove difficult to handle at the table. ("I use superspeed... all the time! This makes the planar shepherd look like molasses.")


This is true. However, note that the Superman writers have to pose their challenges to Superman in such a way that he can overcome them. He's not a one trick pony (more like a three trick pony), and the writers can't just come out and pose a problem that can be solved simply by hitting it really hard, or flying really fast. Or rather, they do sometimes pose those problems, but more as an introductory speedbump that sets the scene: e.g. plane falls out of sky, Superman saves everyone.



Hold on a second. Why do you assume damage matters more than anything else in combat? :smallconfused:


Not me. It is a common complaint of people who have issues with the tier system. There are numerous examples, I think 2-3 in the last month alone.



Both the monk and ToB classes get diplomacy. If the warblade reaches tier 6, where does that leave the fighter?


I've seen diplomacy used as an auto-win button for social encounters, where the player doesn't even bother giving the role-playing lip (sic) service. They just add up their mods, roll 50+ and then expect the entire campaign world to become their obedient servant forevermore.

I try not to comment on other people's play styles, but that one leaves a bad taste in the mouth.



A lot of people do this already, and not without reason.


(regarding cloistered cleric)

Meh. I see what they like and why they like it, (there are other reasons than skills e.g. the extra domain). The one I find most tragic is when people abuse it to get earlier entry into a martial prestige class than a normal cleric would. But if I were to enumerate all the examples of back-asswards things in 3.5 I'd be here all day.

I just (personally) think that there are some people who ascribe too much importance to skills.



I maintain that the paladin is tier 4, especially with goodies from Complete Champion. Paladins can approach the barbarian in charging damage while at same time providing minor utility from spells and serving as the party face. That's tier 4.

Personally I was surprised to see it at tier 5 given that it gets access to spells, and spells are better than skills, and skills normally bump a class up a tier.

[SowZ]

But often the cheapest and best way to replicate the low level paladin spells is with a wand in a wand chamber in a weapon. How do you duplicate Rhinos Rush or Swift Bless Weapon for 850 gp. How do you get the ability to charge through a crowd of mooks to target a boss cheaper than a wand of Zeal? Paladins have a lot of very nice abilities accessable via wands that a fighter either can't use at all, or only for very high costs.

Using the standard magic item creation rules, a wand with 50 charges of 'Rhino's Rush', CL 1, Spell level of one, is only 750 gold.

[Gnaeus]

Using the standard magic item creation rules, a wand with 50 charges of 'Rhino's Rush', CL 1, Spell level of one, is only 750 gold.

Yes, but the wand chamber you are casting it out of is 100. :smallbiggrin: 750+100=850

[Alienist]

This depends completely on which era of Superman and which writer you're talking about. Supes does anything and everything under certain writers.

I am aware http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/09/05 that not everyone agrees on that topic. :D

[Incanur]

I suppose, depending on the campaign, things like Detect Evil and the extra abilities vs. undead could be more useful.

That plus diplomacy and healing add a moderate amount of versatility compared with the fighter.


But the lack of bonus feats and low level of spells, (which aren't realized until level 4 anyway and could be replicated by magic items cheaply,) makes me doubt that a Paladin charge build would even be as good as a Fighter charge build of the same optimization. So I still think it isn't any stronger than a Fighter.

Charging paladins deal similar damage to fighters but nova a little better because of spells and smites. I think the non-core fighter might be tier 4 as well, because it can excel at dealing damage or battlefield control.

[Big Fau]

Charging paladins deal similar damage to fighters but nova a little better because of spells and smites. I think the non-core fighter might be tier 4 as well, because it can excel at dealing damage or battlefield control.

Non-Core Fighter is the border of Tier 4 and Tier 5 (kinda like the Spirit Shaman). However, it is closer to 5 than 4.

[Lans]

Keep in mind that if the fighter/monk/commoner is better optimized comparatively than the rest of the party then they can easily look like they are up a tier or so.

[sonofzeal]

Keep in mind that if the fighter/monk/commoner is better optimized comparatively than the rest of the party then they can easily look like they are up a tier or so.
While true, it's also true that some classes benefit more than others from non-Core material. Primary spellcasters get all sorts of spells in most books, for example. And pretty much every book has dozens of feats.

Know what Fighters have tonnes of? Feat slots. Know what Core is short on? Viable feats to take in them.

This isn't to say that Fighters suddenly become the best class ever. But a non-Core Fighter gains more than most other classes.

[candycorn]

While true, it's also true that some classes benefit more than others from non-Core material. Primary spellcasters get all sorts of spells in most books, for example. And pretty much every book has dozens of feats.

Know what Fighters have tonnes of? Feat slots. Know what Core is short on? Viable feats to take in them.

This isn't to say that Fighters suddenly become the best class ever. But a non-Core Fighter gains more than most other classes.

Caveat: Druids get more animals with almost every splatbook.
Casters in general get more spells with most splatbooks.

IMO, druid benefits the absolute most from non-core material, due to increased options in wildshape, animal companion, and spells.

[sonofzeal]

Caveat: Druids get more animals with almost every splatbook.
Casters in general get more spells with most splatbooks.

IMO, druid benefits the absolute most from non-core material, due to increased options in wildshape, animal companion, and spells.
Eh, only a few books (mostly the MM and "It's X Outside" lines) have animals. I could name a dozen splatbooks off the top of my head that have few to no animals in them.

But yes, Druids benefited a lot from splat support. Dire Hawk, Fleshraker, Venomfire, Wildling Clasps, Dire Tortoise, "Bite of X", Ashbound, Greenbound, Planar Sheppard... yeah. Not too shabby. You may be right.

[Mr.Bookworm]

If you really want a quick, dirty Monk fix, I would do something like:


6+Int skill points. (So they can fulfill basic skillmonkey roles.)
Full BAB. (So they can actually fight people.)
Flurry of Blows as a standard action. (So they can actually use that speed bonus.)
Ability to enchant gauntlets/brass knuckles/handwraps/whatever as weapons and use their unarmed damage with them. (So they are not completely screwed over.)
Shift the entire movement bonus down two levels, add in +70 at those last two. (Mobility, blah blah.)
Slow fall any at level 4. (Because a capstone should not be worse than a first level spell.)
Greater Purity of Body at level 14, granting immunity to supernatural disease. (Mostly filler, but it's nice to have.)
Wholeness of Body grants ([Monk level + Wis modifier] x 2) healing as a swift action. (Swift action is the main thrust, but you might as well add in some more Wis mod goodness for Monks.)
Abundant Step is usable as a swift action, allows you to take actions after using it, and is usable every five rounds. (Same thing as Flurry of Blows, so they can be mobile strikers, and stealing the Binder's excellent recharge mechanic.)
Quivering Palm is usable (Wis mod, min 1) times per day. (Because COME ON.)
Might as well make Empty Body (Monk level + Wis mod) rounds, too.
Perfect Self transforms the Monk into an Outsider (Native) and grants DR 10/adamantine.


I wouldn't call the Monk with those changes an entirely satisfying class by any means, and the whole thing needs a rewrite, but it can at least somewhat function in it's intended role as a mobile fighter/basic skillmonkey.

[candycorn]

Eh, only a few books (mostly the MM and "It's X Outside" lines) have animals. I could name a dozen splatbooks off the top of my head that have few to no animals in them.

But yes, Druids benefited a lot from splat support. Dire Hawk, Fleshraker, Venomfire, Wildling Clasps, Dire Tortoise, "Bite of X", Ashbound, Greenbound, Planar Sheppard... yeah. Not too shabby. You may be right.

Four monster manuals outside of core, most of the Races of books, most of the environmental books, and many of the regional books, for animals. Any splatbook with few animals is likely going to have several spells.

Meanwhile, there's also a lot of books with little to no feat or item support for fighters. There's really little contest.

Add on the spell Heroics, and fighter is rendered largely obsolete, as its class feature is given to anyone the wizard likes.

[Big Fau]

The Fighter isn't so much a class as it is a pile of feats and numbers...

[sonofzeal]

The Fighter isn't so much a class as it is a pile of feats and numbers...
...although, to be fair, "a pile of numbers" describes most things in the game if you pull back far enough. I love melee and I've played Fighters who were all sorts of interesting. A lot of it admittedly involves knowing the best places for feats (ToB, MoI), and knowing the built-in options available to every character if they really tried (disarming without the feat came up in a recent game and was actually a huge help; exploitation of tower shields for full cover is another simple thing any Fighter can do).

Granted, if D&D classes were icecream, Fighter would be the vanilla. But hey, I like vanilla sometimes too.



(Of course, I have my own little subtle balance fix for Fighters, giving them bonuses for Craft and engineering-related stuff, which includes giving both Disable Device and Know:Architecture as class skills. It keeps the bog-plain Fighter mentality, but being able to build things and take things apart and know about construction is occasionally useful out of combat. And any good Fighter should be able to assist in building siegeworks.)

[Big Fau]

Granted, if D&D classes were icecream, Fighter would be the vanilla. But hey, I like vanilla sometimes too.

As do I, but Fighters come across as McDonalds vanilla: All crunch, no flavor to speak of, and not very satisfying.

[Doc Roc]

As do I, but Fighters come across as McDonalds vanilla: All crunch, no flavor to speak of, and not very satisfying.

I was getting ready to make a similar joke, but you beat me to the punch with an almost oppressive thoroughness. :)

[candycorn]

...although, to be fair, "a pile of numbers" describes most things in the game if you pull back far enough. I love melee and I've played Fighters who were all sorts of interesting. A lot of it admittedly involves knowing the best places for feats (ToB, MoI), and knowing the built-in options available to every character if they really tried (disarming without the feat came up in a recent game and was actually a huge help; exploitation of tower shields for full cover is another simple thing any Fighter can do).Options available to all characters aren't benefits of a fighter, to be fair.

Also, some of the sources you've chosen don't offer much in the way of Fighter feats. For example, MoI.

The problem with a fighter is that they can be interesting in the way that any character can be interesting. But their mechanics, while they have several non-core options, they have to pick one, or at best two, and that's really their only viable options mechanically.

While the roleplay for a fighter can be interesting, after about 6 levels, a chain tripper becomes mighty monotonous mechanically.

[sonofzeal]

Options available to all characters aren't benefits of a fighter, to be fair.

Also, some of the sources you've chosen don't offer much in the way of Fighter feats. For example, MoI.

The problem with a fighter is that they can be interesting in the way that any character can be interesting. But their mechanics, while they have several non-core options, they have to pick one, or at best two, and that's really their only viable options mechanically.

While the roleplay for a fighter can be interesting, after about 6 levels, a chain tripper becomes mighty monotonous mechanically.
I realize what you say about options available to everyone... but I find in practice it doesn't actually matter, as long as those options exist and are effective. Fighter has high BAB and generally high Strength and Attack Bonus, making things like Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, and Trip potentially viable in the right circumstances even without the relevant feat. They're proficient with Tower Shields, which makes carrying one for cover much more effective. They don't have much else to spend skill points on so many take points in Craft and get that Mithral Fullplate for a third the price (Rogues, who are swimming in skillpoints by comparison, actually need those to pull of their shticks and I find they hardly ever have enough for "frivolties" like that). Their carrying capacity is generally good, so they can drag stuff around. Their damage is usually good, so they can break stuff.

And sure, all the above applies to the Warrior as well, and to most characters in the game if they really wanted it, but I actually kind of enjoy being forced to take that step back and consider my broader set of options. When I'm playing a UMD Rogue, I'll be looking all up and down my skill list and scroll list for a solution to the problem. When I'm a Fighter, I think about how I would solve it myself in the real world, and then find a way to apply that to D&D.

Again - it matters less whether other characters can do those same things, as whether you had potentially interesting choices to make and had fun making them. And it helps if they're effective in solving the problem, yeah. A wider toolbox is always good, which is why I love ToB, but the base mechanics of the game provide a lot of options that the savvy player can make use of. Reducing Fighters to just "I attack again" and sitting around waiting between combats, ignores this aspect of the system. It's one of the better elements of 3.5 as a gaming system, I think.

I'm reminded of a quote by G.K. Chesterton, which is quite a lot longer than I remembered it so I'll put it in spoilers:
The sense that everything is poetical is a thing solid and absolute; it is not a mere matter of phraseology or persuasion. It is not merely true, it is ascertainable. Men may be challenged to deny it; men may be challenged to mention anything that is not a matter of poetry. I remember a long time ago a sensible sub-editor coming up to me with a book in his hand, called "Mr. Smith," or "The Smith Family," or some such thing. He said, "Well, you won't get any of your damned mysticism out of this," or words to that effect. I am happy to say that I undeceived him; but the victory was too obvious and easy. In most cases the name is unpoetical, although the fact is poetical. In the case of Smith, the name is so poetical that it must be an arduous and heroic matter for the man to live up to it. The name of Smith is the name of the one trade that even kings respected, it could claim half the glory of that arma virumque which all epics acclaimed. The spirit of the smithy is so close to the spirit of song that it has mixed in a million poems, and every blacksmith is a harmonious blacksmith.

Even the village children feel that in some dim way the smith is poetic, as the grocer and the cobbler are not poetic, when they feast on the dancing sparks and deafening blows in the cavern of that creative violence. The brute repose of Nature, the passionate cunning of man, the strongest of earthly metals, the wierdest of earthly elements, the unconquerable iron subdued by its only conqueror, the wheel and the ploughshare, the sword and the steam-hammer, the arraying of armies and the whole legend of arms, all these things are written, briefly indeed, but quite legibly, on the visiting-card of Mr. Smith. Yet our novelists call their hero "Aylmer Valence," which means nothing, or "Vernon Raymond," which means nothing, when it is in their power to give him this sacred name of Smith--this name made of iron and flame. It would be very natural if a certain hauteur, a certain carriage of the head, a certain curl of the lip, distinguished every one whose name is Smith. Perhaps it does; I trust so. Whoever else are parvenus, the Smiths are not parvenus. From the darkest dawn of history this clan has gone forth to battle; its trophies are on every hand; its name is everywhere; it is older than the nations, and its sign is the Hammer of Thor. But as I also remarked, it is not quite the usual case. It is common enough that common things should be poetical; it is not so common that common names should be poetical. In most cases it is the name that is the obstacle. A great many people talk as if this claim of ours, that all things are poetical, were a mere literary ingenuity, a play on words. Precisely the contrary is true. It is the idea that some things are not poetical which is literary, which is a mere product of words. The word "signal-box" is unpoetical. But the thing signal-box is not unpoetical; it is a place where men, in an agony of vigilance, light blood-red and sea-green fires to keep other men from death. That is the plain, genuine description of what it is; the prose only comes in with what it is called. The word "pillar-box" is unpoetical. But the thing pillar-box is not unpoetical; it is the place to which friends and lovers commit their messages, conscious that when they have done so they are sacred, and not to be touched, not only by others, but even (religious touch!) by themselves. That red turret is one of the last of the temples. Posting a letter and getting married are among the few things left that are entirely romantic; for to be entirely romantic a thing must be irrevocable. We think a pillar-box prosaic, because there is no rhyme to it. We think a pillar-box unpoetical, because we have never seen it in a poem. But the bold fact is entirely on the side of poetry. A signal-box is only called a signal-box; it is a house of life and death. A pillar-box is only called a pillar-box; it is a sanctuary of human words. If you think the name of "Smith" prosaic, it is not because you are practical and sensible; it is because you are too much affected with literary refinements. The name shouts poetry at you. If you think of it otherwise, it is because you are steeped and sodden with verbal reminiscences, because you remember everything in Punch or Comic Cuts about Mr. Smith being drunk or Mr. Smith being henpecked. All these things were given to you poetical. It is only by a long and elaborate process of literary effort that you have made them prosaic.
Suffice to say, what he says about "Smith" is much of what I say about "Fighter".


And all that's not even mentioning feats. They get underrated ("oh they're just feats, everyone gets those"), but a Fighter has as many by lvl 6 as most characters have by lvl 20. That's, er, significant.

Oh, and while MoI may not have Fighter Bonus Feats, it has Shape Soulmeld and its kin. Fighter have their Bonus Feats to help with Fighterin', which leaves their general slots open to take whatever. Most other characters have to use their general slots to get whatever they're trying to do off the ground, and this affords Fighters a nice little bit of flexibility when choosing things off the beaten path. Fighters are probably the characters who can most afford to dally around with Shape Soulmeld and Bind Vestige when they aren't directly contributing to some specific combination.



(edit) All that said, they deserve their Tier ranking. They're not great at anything, although with appropriate feats they can be a semi-viable One Trick Pony. But I'm fond of them, and I think most people would have more fun playing them than they might expect.

[Alienist]

Also, don't forget to give them simple martial weapon proficiency so that they can actually use their fists as weapons without taking a non-proficiency penalty.

[Seharvepernfan]

Okay, I've read your comments and thought about it for a while. I've revised my revised monk. With this improved action economy and worked-out kinks, does the tier change?


-full bab
-6 skill points
-speed bonuses are halved (+5ft. at 3rd level, etc.)

-starting at +1 at 4th, and increasing by one every 4 levels, a monk gains DR magic (example: DR 3/magic at 12th).

-at 5th level, a monk may take a move action in place of a 5ft. adjustment.

-Wholeness of body is now fast healing 5, up to as many rounds as you have monk levels, and can be used in one round increments at your discretion as a free action.
At 14th, the fast healing becomes regeneration (as a troll, except with no exemption for fire/acid). Kicks in automatically if the monk is brought to -1 or fewer hit points, and the monk takes control of the effect upon becoming conscious (if the monk has die hard, its her choice). With regeneration, if the monk drops to -10 or less (or otherwise dying, as long as the body isn't disintegrated), the regeneration keeps healing 5 per round until it runs out or the monk is brought to 0 or more HP.

-at 10th, the monk gains DR/Chaotic to match his DR/magic.

-at 10th, a monk may, take a standard action as a swift or immediate action, in addition to his normal standard or full action. If an immediate action is used to draw and attack with a weapon, the monk must have quick draw.

-Abundant Step can be used 1/day/5 levels as a move or standard action (CL equal to her level).

-at 15th, a monk may take a full attack as a standard action.
(Doesn't "stack" with the tenth level ability, though the monk could make a full attack as a standard action, then take a standard action as a swift action and attack again.)

-Quivering Palm doesn't exist.
-Empty Body can be entered as a sudden action and left as a free action.
-Perfect Self now grants DR 10/Adamantine instead of magic, and the monk becomes a native outsider (not extraplanar).

Regarding spell resistance: The monk can choose to let spells affect her at her discretion with no action.

P.S. After some thought, I realized that the monk should have a ki pool similar to the ninja. I might work something up eventually.

[Person_Man]

I'm sorry, but the only way to make a Monk Tier 3 or higher is to provide it with some form of scaled spells, powers, soulmelds, vesitiges, disciplines, wildshape, or a similar abilities. The Tier system isn't just about raw power, it's also about versatility. You could give the Monk +100 damage per attack at level 1, and it would still be Tier 4, because it lacks options beyond making basic attacks. You may wish to look at the Swordsage, or Fax's fix (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Monk), or my Ninja fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186505), or any of the other dozens (or hundreds) of similar fixes floating around on the homebrew forums.

[Myth]

So the class starts with full bab/6 skill points/all good saves and d8 HD. Just make him start with 8 skills/level so he gets all the bases of Outsider HD right off the bat, that's the only difference really.

He gets some action economy and DR (BTW it's logical, if you give him DR/Adamantine to also have his natural weapons count as Adamantine when it's beneficial for him), a fail-safe Regeneration ability (consider upgrading this to a permanent effect near level 17-18. That's when Joe Schmoe Wizard can Shapechange into something that has it. Just have it be Regen 5/Epic and Chaotic or something so it's not bypassed by every dire boar the guy fights. He should still retain the auto-fail Regen 5/- that has a limited duration though.

The capstone should be better! Allow him to get the full benefits of the Outsider HD - Darkvision, the weapon proficiencies and the immortality. Don't make him need to eat and sleep (as a Native Outsider has to)

Give the monk UMD, Diplomacy and Intimidate as class skills and Knowledge: Religion and Knowledge: The Planes as bonus class skills when he turns into an outsider.

Becoming an Outsider is sorta good. But have a clause that both the prime material and one plane of the Monk's choice are considered as his home planes and thus he cannot be banished from them.

Consider giving him Holy Word (or an equivalent based on his alignment) x times per day once he gets to be an Outsider. CL = his Monk levels, DC is Wis based.

Consider him gaining a Mind Blank that has a Personal cast range, CL = his Monk levels, usable x times per day.

Remove that sudden action from Empty Body. The only reference to a sudden anything are the Sudden X metamagic feats from CAr. :smallsmile:

[Incanur]

Apart from White Raven Tactics, what can warblades (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4913.0) do other than hit things, avoid dying, boost other melee characters, and use skills? Would the class be tier 4 without that one maneuver?

[DoctorGlock]

Apart from White Raven Tactics, what can warblades (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4913.0) do other than hit things, avoid dying, boost other melee characters, and use skills? Would the class be tier 4 without that one maneuver?

Iron Heart Surge would like a word with you.

[Incanur]

Iron Heart Surge would like a word with you.

Outside of ridiculous interpretations, that falls under not dying. With all good saves and spell resistance that allow beneficial effects, this new monk has solid defenses as well. Abundant step actually gives it better class-based mobility options than the warblade. MAD remains a huge problem, so I think this monk only gets to tier 4, but the warblade's rank suggests you can get to tier 3 simply by excelling at melee combat.

[DoctorGlock]

Outside of ridiculous interpretations, that falls under not dying. With all good saves and spell resistance that allow beneficial effects, this new monk has solid defenses as well. Abundant step actually gives it better class-based mobility options than the warblade. MAD remains a huge problem, so I think this monk only gets to tier 4, but the warblade's rank suggests you can get to tier 3 simply by excelling at melee combat.

Joking aside, the warblade can inflict status effects, has a fairly solid skill list, can alter the action economy and has counters for multiple effects. The can excel at mobility and can deal relevant damage as well. They are good at once thing (damage) and competent at others (mobility, skills, status, counters) which is the definition of T3

This monk... well, it can deal some damage, and it can get some skills. That's about it.

[Incanur]

Joking aside, the warblade can inflict status effects, has a fairly solid skill list, can alter the action economy and has counters for multiple effects. The can excel at mobility and can deal relevant damage as well. They are good at once thing (damage) and competent at others (mobility, skills, status, counters) which is the definition of T3

Uh, what good do damage, status effects, mobility, and counters do outside of combat? As the write-up in the linked thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4913.0) notes, warblades excel at melee combat and have some decent skills. The duskblade also doesn't have much going for it besides damage, a handful of debuffs, and a little mobility. You don't need incredible versatility to be tier 3 according to the tier system as originally written.


This monk... well, it can deal some damage, and it can get some skills. That's about it.

Actually, it can inflict one of the better status effects (stunned) and has considerable mobility in the form of speed boots, teleportation, extra move actions, extra standard actions, and standard-action full attacks. All good saves and SR take the place of counters defensively.

[DoctorGlock]

Uh, what good do damage, status effects, mobility, and counters do outside of combat? As the write-up in the linked thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4913.0) notes, warblades excel at melee combat and have some decent skills. The duskblade also doesn't have much going for it besides damage, a handful of debuffs, and a little mobility. You don't need incredible versatility to be tier 3 according to the tier system as originally written.



Actually, it can inflict one of the better status effects (stunned) and has considerable mobility in the form of speed boots, teleportation, extra move actions, extra standard actions, and standard-action full attacks. All good saves and SR take the place of counters defensively.

Good saves are never good enough, counters are usually a heck of a lot higher. SR is the same story, and SR: NO spells are dirt common.

The monk can inflict stun... ok, so it has a good trick. The warblade has moves that deal ability damage and status effects that hamper mobility, pop massive penalties and cripple huge numbers of people. It can boost allies, unlike the monk. It is limited outside combat, hence it being T3.

This monk on the other hand can kill stuff. It's a step up from 3.5 monk which cannot. Its abilities are preset and narrow. The warblade has a plethora of options.

[Incanur]

Good saves are never good enough, counters are usually a heck of a lot higher.

That depends. A +1 monk with 16 Wis makes Will saves at +5. A first level warblade with 14 Con manages +6 with Moment of Perfect Mind. The advantage increases to +3 in the warlbade's favor by level 5 and +5 at level 10. But you only get one counter per round - normally - while good saves remain good. And remember, at level 10, this monk gets the ability to make a standard action as an immediate action every round. That's one hell of a counter.


SR is the same story, and SR: NO spells are dirt common.

SR stills gives a miss chance against lots of nasty things.


The warblade has moves that deal ability damage and status effects that hamper mobility, pop massive penalties and cripple huge numbers of people.

To which maneuvers to you refer?


It can boost allies, unlike the monk.

I'll give it that one.


The warblade has a plethora of options.

Compared with any other tier 3 except the duskblade, it really doesn't. Only White Raven Tactics gives it a claim to significant versatility.

[ccjmk]

*disclaimer note: i sadly couldn't ever have my very first D&D game, so everything i "know" is just by reading, which can be plainly confusing, so i apologice for any misconcept*

I always loved Monk's concept, but i just keep reading it sucks; such a shame for a nicely roled character, but meh.

I had an idea about how it could be changed that sounds at least promising to me: Currently monk fights with unarmed strike or fists.. what if it could learn different "fighting technique" reflecting how different martial arts approach combat differently? That way, he can obtain an extra weapon -kicks: the monk's legs count as weapons that do the same damage than his unarmed strike, but have reach; kicking opponents triggers a reflex check, if failed, you are flatfooted until the beginning of your next turn-, maximize his bare-hands attacks, learn almost unreal abilities like quickened reflexes, extraordinarily long/tall jumps, long falls without damage, etc.

Each monk level should reflect his mastery over a specific technique; so all monks have shared characteristics, but on top of them each one will be aiming for a particular fighting style.. This martial styles should probably gain new features up to 5 or 6 levels, and then just progress enhancing current ones.. so a pure monk can get all 20 levels in a single martial style and become a deadly martial specialist, or mix more than one into a sort of Mixed Martial Arts combatant. Also, as each art only extends a few levels, you can also max out -in terms of skills obtained, not skills' power- a single art, and then multiclass.

[SowZ]

*disclaimer note: i sadly couldn't ever have my very first D&D game, so everything i "know" is just by reading, which can be plainly confusing, so i apologice for any misconcept*

I always loved Monk's concept, but i just keep reading it sucks; such a shame for a nicely roled character, but meh.

I had an idea about how it could be changed that sounds at least promising to me: Currently monk fights with unarmed strike or fists.. what if it could learn different "fighting technique" reflecting how different martial arts approach combat differently? That way, he can obtain an extra weapon -kicks: the monk's legs count as weapons that do the same damage than his unarmed strike, but have reach; kicking opponents triggers a reflex check, if failed, you are flatfooted until the beginning of your next turn-, maximize his bare-hands attacks, learn almost unreal abilities like quickened reflexes, extraordinarily long/tall jumps, long falls without damage, etc.

Each monk level should reflect his mastery over a specific technique; so all monks have shared characteristics, but on top of them each one will be aiming for a particular fighting style.. This martial styles should probably gain new features up to 5 or 6 levels, and then just progress enhancing current ones.. so a pure monk can get all 20 levels in a single martial style and become a deadly martial specialist, or mix more than one into a sort of Mixed Martial Arts combatant. Also, as each art only extends a few levels, you can also max out -in terms of skills obtained, not skills' power- a single art, and then multiclass.

Alot of what you suggested already exists, actually. Monks have great saves, evasion, (for reflexes,) and improved evasion, lots of alternate class features, options for bonus feats based on style, slow fall abilities, etc. Giving them more variety of attacks wouldn't help if the attacks were still as weak as they are. A more complex martial tree with more bonus feats is a cool idea, don't get me wrong, but it would need more than extra attacks and would have to increase utility. Full BAB would be nice.

Giving them an awesome acrobatic bonus like jumps and such would be neat, yeah.

[ccjmk]

I can't really detail much because as i've already said i'm not really that proficient in D&D aside from what i've managed to read and understand.

I was trying to aim for something like that actually; not just Improved Evasion or Slowfall; i mean PERFECT evasion -not permanent, of course-, things like grappling oponents mid-air while jumping or falling and either crush them against the ground when landing or throwing them to some other oponent; countering attacks A La Aikido, stuff around that lines..

Also, we'r talking about fantasy role, we can give him some extraordinary skills like acute senses, being able to "persieve" invisible or out-of-sight oponents by feeling the vibrations of the earth (via concentration check), maybe some advanced technique like the Futae no Kiwami from Anji (Rurouni Kenshin reference), smashing the ground with your fist for massive AoE damage -maybe flatfooting damaged oponents that fail a check-

Sort of a more Shaolin-mighty monk, not just a fuzzy dude hitting things with his bare hands

[sonofzeal]

I can't really detail much because as i've already said i'm not really that proficient in D&D aside from what i've managed to read and understand.

I was trying to aim for something like that actually; not just Improved Evasion or Slowfall; i mean PERFECT evasion -not permanent, of course-, things like grappling oponents mid-air while jumping or falling and either crush them against the ground when landing or throwing them to some other oponent; countering attacks A La Aikido, stuff around that lines..

Also, we'r talking about fantasy role, we can give him some extraordinary skills like acute senses, being able to "persieve" invisible or out-of-sight oponents by feeling the vibrations of the earth (via concentration check), maybe some advanced technique like the Futae no Kiwami from Anji (Rurouni Kenshin reference), smashing the ground with your fist for massive AoE damage -maybe flatfooting damaged oponents that fail a check-

Sort of a more Shaolin-mighty monk, not just a fuzzy dude hitting things with his bare hands
Tome of Battle my friend, Tome of Battle. You've pretty much just described the Unarmed Swordsage. Throws, counters, special ways to avoid or resist things, enhanced senses, crazy martial arts attacks (although I can't remember if Swordsages have access to the earthquake-like one). It's what the book was built for, and it's awesome.

This is why people shout "Unarmed Swordsage" whenever someone brings up Monk's weakness, because any attempt to make them cooler martial artists generally brings them progressively closer to ToB.

[candycorn]

I maintain that monks have three crippling weaknesses.

1) Dependent on too many stats for parity. Any reliable fix should work to eliminate this. For example: If monks get wisdom to attack and damage? That offsets the importance of strength. If they get it to AC as well, and skills, it lessens the impact of dexterity. To remain relevant, however, eventually they need to get double wisdom to AC, though.

2) Lack of a defining focus. Monk things are really all over the place. Any fix doesn't need to straightjacket them in, but it does need to provide a cohesive and competent theme.

3) Lack of an effective action economy. Due to lower than stellar abilities, they often can't capitalize on the decent benefits they do get, which causes those abilities to be undervalued. Flurry of Blows is a prime example. Put that ability on a Barbarian, and it'd be great. On a monk, it's mediocre. Any fix must bring up the monk to parity to allow the decent abilities it does have to focus decently.

So, the elegant solutions will hit as many of these at once as you can.

Providing more focus to monks as wise warriors, you handle (2). Implementing that by placing more benefits to a monk with high wisdom, you address (1). If that raises a monk's accuracy and endurance, that helps with (3).

From there, to give flexibility? Rather than give monks a choice between two feats, give them specific SLA's, usable 1/encounter. If that happens several times over the course of 20 levels, you get variety. Low level may include things like Entropic Shield, Mage Armor, and Feather Fall. Later on, it may include Water Walk, Blindness/Deafness, and Magic Vestment.

On a side note: A lot of things are resistant to stunning. Blindness and Dazing are generally considered stronger debuffs.

[DoctorGlock]

To which maneuvers to you refer?


I'm 6000 miles from my books, how patient are you?

[TheMeMan]

Just some ideas to throw out.


I maintain that monks have three crippling weaknesses.

1) Dependent on too many stats for parity. Any reliable fix should work to eliminate this. For example: If monks get wisdom to attack and damage? That offsets the importance of strength. If they get it to AC as well, and skills, it lessens the impact of dexterity. To remain relevant, however, eventually they need to get double wisdom to AC, though.


Possible fix for skills: At first level, and every 5th level after, a Monk can choose a skill. That skill now has Wisdom as it's primary ability. Could be altered for effectiveness, but it's a rather simple fix without the silliness that would entail with every skill being Wisdom based. Also, for any prerequisites which involve Strength or Dexterity(Namely feats), a Monk can use his Wisdom score to fulfill the prerequisite.



2) Lack of a defining focus. Monk things are really all over the place. Any fix doesn't need to straightjacket them in, but it does need to provide a cohesive and competent theme.


Someone up above suggested changing Flurry to be usable as a standard action. That would help synergize the build. I would remove the 1st, 2nd, and 6th level bonus selection of bonus feats. In it's place, I'd do this system:

1st Level: Bonus feat(Any).
2nd: Bonus feat(List)
6th: Bonus feat(List)

All prerequisites must be filled to take a bonus feat.

List: Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Stunning Fist, Improved Grapple, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Dodge, Power Attack, Mobility, Improved Initiative, Improved Bull Rush, Great Fortitude



3) Lack of an effective action economy. Due to lower than stellar abilities, they often can't capitalize on the decent benefits they do get, which causes those abilities to be undervalued. Flurry of Blows is a prime example. Put that ability on a Barbarian, and it'd be great. On a monk, it's mediocre. Any fix must bring up the monk to parity to allow the decent abilities it does have to focus decently.

So, the elegant solutions will hit as many of these at once as you can.

From there, to give flexibility? Rather than give monks a choice between two feats, give them specific SLA's, usable 1/encounter. If that happens several times over the course of 20 levels, you get variety. Low level may include things like Entropic Shield, Mage Armor, and Feather Fall. Later on, it may include Water Walk, Blindness/Deafness, and Magic Vestment.

On a side note: A lot of things are resistant to stunning. Blindness and Dazing are generally considered stronger debuffs.

Providing more focus to monks as wise warriors, you handle (2). Implementing that by placing more benefits to a monk with high wisdom, you address (1). If that raises a monk's accuracy and endurance, that helps with (3).


Although I don't think I fixed everything by any means, I think this suggestions should be at least a good start.