The absolute worst class of all time (you haven't seen this one before)

[aabicus]

Was browsing through the D&D Wiki and stumbled across this: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Uplift_%283.5e_NPC_Class%29

Worst. Class. Ever. Not even an NPC deserves this.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hey... bonus feat. That's better than Commoner. Besides... that's what you get for trawling dandwiki...

[Acanous]

how is this worse than Truenamer?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

how is this worse than Truenamer?

1/2 BAB, all three poor saves, and the only class ability is a bonus feat.

Granted, you need to hit level 20 to get the only really relevant class ability for the Truenamer, but being able to Gate in things without xp cost is pretty boss.

[Eldan]

Looks like its just not done and supposed to get more stuff. That said, I can't think of a way to make up for that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Looks like its just not done and supposed to get more stuff. That said, I can't think of a way to make up for that.

See previous comment 'that's what you get for trawling dandwiki'...

[aabicus]

Looks like its just not done and supposed to get more stuff. That said, I can't think of a way to make up for that.

It says "Complete" at the top of the page.

Also, check out the stat blot: The Uplift gets a -1 to Will at first level. I've never seen a class get a negative value in their Saving Throws table.

He also gets only 1+Int Skill points/level and has only three class skills.

[gkathellar]

I don't understand. Why would anyone bother to make a class like this? Statting up commoners is already an exercise in vanity, but this is just obscene.

[Varil]

Even the "fluff" reasoning for the class doesn't make sense. If you REALLY wanted a "classless"...class...why not just use racial HD? For class skills use whatever the "uplifted" creature had before becoming human(oid). Bam. Done.

[Grim Reader]

I don't understand. Why would anyone bother to make a class like this? Statting up commoners is already an exercise in vanity, but this is just obscene.

A long time ago, in the old WoTC forums, I remember us discussing the theoretical possibility of a 20th level commoner, and what kind of life could produce such a thing. And we were surprised to find that one of the more well-known characters of fantasy litterature were in fact best described as a 20th (or epic) level commoner...

[Varil]

A long time ago, in the old WoTC forums, I remember us discussing the theoretical possibility of a 20th level commoner, and what kind of life could produce such a thing. And we were surprised to find that one of the more well-known characters of fantasy litterature were in fact best described as a 20th (or epic) level commoner...

What character was this?

[sonofzeal]

What character was this?
My guess is either Bilbo or Frodo or both. Either could be Commoners of at least mid level.

[aabicus]

^Not when Gandalf was only a 5th level wizard (http://gamingbrouhaha.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/gandalf.jpg).

Someone needs to stat an optimized Uplift. I'm not even sure if that's possible.

[Myth]

Incarnum feats, the regional FR feat that adds some spells. Sell his soul for extra feats. Add things like martial study. Pay for Craft Contingent Spells and some armours of continous spells (Continous Divine Power perhaps?).

With some opt-fu I think this class can beat a straight Fighter or Monk 20.

[endoperez]

Incarnum feats, the regional FR feat that adds some spells. Sell his soul for extra feats. Add things like martial study. Pay for Craft Contingent Spells and some armours of continous spells (Continous Divine Power perhaps?).

With some opt-fu I think this class can beat a straight Fighter or Monk 20.

It gains one bonus feat, and if you can get that without meeting the requisites, you might be able to get something good from there.


Also note how, under illiteracy, it's mention that the Uplifted can't even speak without spending 2 skill points... It knows languages, but I assume it just understands them, and can't speak. d3 hp per level also sucks.

[gkathellar]

A long time ago, in the old WoTC forums, I remember us discussing the theoretical possibility of a 20th level commoner, and what kind of life could produce such a thing. And we were surprised to find that one of the more well-known characters of fantasy litterature were in fact best described as a 20th (or epic) level commoner...

I don't buy it. Anything you could do with commoner 20 could be just as easily done with Fighter 5-8, and I can't think of a single character in fantasy fiction who I wouldn't prefer to stat up as a fighter, a rogue, or at least an expert.


With some opt-fu I think this class can beat a straight Fighter or Monk 20.

It's well established that an Expert can do this, but only because UMD is so crazy broken.

[Tyndmyr]

Hey... bonus feat. That's better than Commoner. Besides... that's what you get for trawling dandwiki...

I don't know that it is...It only gets a single skill point per level, and has a TERRIBLE skill list. Given the bonus feat is limited to what they had pre-uplift, it's not necessarily a win.


how is this worse than Truenamer?

Truenamer gets a lot of unfairly bad criticism. It ain't perfect, but you can ignore the truenaming mechanics entirely and the class crushes this one. It also crushes commoner and expert without even utilizing it's core ability.


1/2 BAB, all three poor saves, and the only class ability is a bonus feat.

Granted, you need to hit level 20 to get the only really relevant class ability for the Truenamer, but being able to Gate in things without xp cost is pretty boss.

Normal use of things such as Word of Nurturing and it's reversed cousin are relevant. Gate without xp cost is...a bit broken, but only comes up at 20, as you say. Truenamer should be ranked about tier 3. They can nuke, heal, buff and debuff effectively, but with limited utterance selection.

Also, D&D wiki is horrible.


^Not when Gandalf was only a 5th level wizard (http://gamingbrouhaha.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/gandalf.jpg).

Someone needs to stat an optimized Uplift. I'm not even sure if that's possible.

Gandalf was not a 5th level wizard. Gandalf was a 20+ leveled Gish/demigod. Things you read at the Alexandrian should not be taken seriously without looking at the sources for yourself.


Incarnum feats, the regional FR feat that adds some spells. Sell his soul for extra feats. Add things like martial study. Pay for Craft Contingent Spells and some armours of continous spells (Continous Divine Power perhaps?).

With some opt-fu I think this class can beat a straight Fighter or Monk 20.

Those are not normal animal/plant/whatever feats. So...he's not going to be able to use his bonus feat on them. This is pretty terrible.

[The Glyphstone]

Gandalf was not a 5th level wizard. Gandalf was a 20+ leveled Gish/demigod. Things you read at the Alexandrian should not be taken seriously without looking at the sources for yourself.

I thought Gandalf was a classless Solar with a Ring of Elemental Command (Fire).

[gkathellar]

I thought Gandalf was a classless Solar with a Ring of Elemental Command (Fire).

This, but he has a Geas forcing him to behave as a 5th-level wizard until he encounters an evil outsider.

[Ravens_cry]

Oh!
The Dandi Wiki,
It Will make you feel icky,
And your hands kind of sticky,
Ooh, They think they're so tricky,
Every Tom, ****, and Ricky,
On the Dandi Wiki!

On the Dandi Wiki the pages are soiled,
Many good ideas have been spoiled,
With ludicrous crunch they are embroiled,
All common sense has been foiled,
But don't tell them or they'll get roiled,
On the Dandi Wiki!

Oh the Dandi Wiki ain't got no sense,
And not a shred of re-pen-tance,
There really is just no defence,
For all the crud that they dispense,
I hope this song don't cause offence,
On the Dandi Wiki!

[Tyndmyr]

I thought Gandalf was a classless Solar with a Ring of Elemental Command (Fire).

Also a reasonable representation. A 5th level wizard is frankly not. For a guy who doesn't use any buff spells and frequently engages in melee with a longsword...if he were 5th level, he'd have been stabbed a lot more.

[Alefiend]

Truenamer should be ranked about tier 3. They can nuke, heal, buff and debuff effectively, but with limited utterance selection.The Truenamer concept is tier 1 or 2 IMHO, depending on how broadly we define what can be done with access to the source code for the multiverse. :smallamused: As designed, I agree that the intent was probably tier 3. Oh how I wish the class actually worked.


Gandalf statting blahOn the bright side, if the fallacious argument for Gandalf being a 5th-level wizard hadn't been made, we likely would never have had E6, which is a great idea for play. :smallsmile:

[Tyndmyr]

The Truenamer concept is tier 1 or 2 IMHO, depending on how broadly we define what can be done with access to the source code for the multiverse. :smallamused: As designed, I agree that the intent was probably tier 3. Oh how I wish the class actually worked.

The class works fine as written. I have built chars with this, and they performed admirably.

A medium op(read, not the sort of person who makes wizards with 6 int and no points in spellcraft) Truenamer functions just fine as T3, T4 at the worst. They can perform a lot of roles.

No, the weak point of the Truenamer class is the lack of variety. Very little was printed elsewhere for them(the only specific thing is a single organization), and thus, all truenamers tend to look pretty much alike. Each of them is both useful and flexible, but it's all basically the same build(ie, 20 levels of truenamer) and a lot of overlap on utterances chosen.

[CTrees]

On the bright side, if the fallacious argument for Gandalf being a 5th-level wizard hadn't been made, we likely would never have had E6, which is a great idea for play. :smallsmile:

Admittedly, 5th-ish level or lower (at least at the beginning) works a lot better for everyone else in the Fellowship. Gandalf? No.

[Dr.Epic]

This class is probably just something homebrewed and not meant to be balanced. I'm assuming anyone can just edit the site and add their own class. Shouldn't be too difficult to come up with something worse.

Also, how is that a class and not a race/template?

[Grim Reader]

What character was this?


My guess is either Bilbo or Frodo or both. Either could be Commoners of at least mid level.


I don't buy it. Anything you could do with commoner 20 could be just as easily done with Fighter 5-8, and I can't think of a single character in fantasy fiction who I wouldn't prefer to stat up as a fighter, a rogue, or at least an expert.

It was Rincewind.

The only heroic ability he ever shows is once in his career casting a cantrip. His entire life involves running away from things. And this would seem to fullfill all his criteria for dealing with something.

He starts out running away from robbers and footpads, moves up to running away from Trolls and Dragons. Then he runs away from a godlike Sourcerer, and chtuloid creatures from beynd spacetime. After that, he runs from the lord of hell. Towards the end of his career, we see him running from the beginning and end of worlds, and the rise and fall of species. And a lot of stuff in between.

This describes a level 1 to epic career quite well. A commoner who gets experience for running away from things describe him quite well, I think:)

[ORione]

Hey... bonus feat. That's better than Commoner.

Aren't commoners literate? They're certainly able to speak without spending skill points.

And speaking of skill points, this is the first class I've seen that gives an odd number.

[Tyndmyr]

It was Rincewind.

The only heroic ability he ever shows is once in his career casting a cantrip. His entire life involves running away from things. And this would seem to fullfill all his criteria for dealing with something.

He starts out running away from robbers and footpads, moves up to running away from Trolls and Dragons. Then he runs away from a godlike Sourcerer, and chtuloid creatures from beynd spacetime. After that, he runs from the lord of hell. Towards the end of his career, we see him running from the beginning and end of worlds, and the rise and fall of species. And a lot of stuff in between.

This describes a level 1 to epic career quite well. A commoner who gets experience for running away from things describe him quite well, I think:)

Heh. Well played. I'll point out that he had effectively an epic spell in his head as well, but yeah, I can certainly see him being statted as mostly commoner at least. He's fairly good at running away from things, and has a lack of other abilities of note.

[Madara]

My optimization of this class:
get killed by a vampire.
Become Vampire spawn.
You are the best Uplift(probably the only one) to walk the earth.

As for the fluff, I think we found a way for a cat to be beaten by a commoner...if it takes this class.

[Telonius]

Aren't commoners literate? They're certainly able to speak without spending skill points.

They generally are literate. This poor class doesn't even qualify for chicken-infested.

[Eldan]

Heh. Well played. I'll point out that he had effectively an epic spell in his head as well, but yeah, I can certainly see him being statted as mostly commoner at least. He's fairly good at running away from things, and has a lack of other abilities of note.

I'd put Rincewind down as an Expert, actually. He has tons of skill points in Speak Language, and some pretty broad education, indicating knowledge skills.

[missmvicious]

I think the point was the fluff.

It's perfect for furries who want a helpless anthropomorphic bunny-rabbit traveling companion who needs you to protect it through every single adventure. I think this character was over-designed to be useless on purpose.

Also, DMPCs are typically considered bad form, but protection quests aren't terribly uncommon (which tends to require a useless DMPC), especially for L1 Characters. I'm in one now in 3.5, and I'm also DM'ing a scripted 4E one (Keep on the Shadowfell). So, at least, by my experience, they happen often enough to require weak DMPCs.

Problem is (in 3.5), even if you don't want your DMPC getting involved in fights, it gets hard to justify to your players why your L1 Commoner doesn't pick up his pitchfork and at least cause a flanking bonus. One look at the Uplifts stats would probably shut the mouths of most players who gripe about how they could use a little help over here.

[aabicus]

This class also isn't proficient with "any" weapon. Without optimization, it probably couldn't even hit something, let alone kill it. The "instinct" is the closest thing this class has to a game-breaker, but I can't find a creature feat that would be really, really useful.

Also, missmvicious is probably right. The page even lampshades it: "They do not tend to live very long."

[Eldariel]

^Not when Gandalf was only a 5th level wizard (http://gamingbrouhaha.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/gandalf.jpg).

That's only one interpretation and an extremely arguable one at that though. Gandalf could just as easily be statted as level 300 as level 5 (basically, level 5 is the minimum for an easy representation of Gandalf). Same goes for most of the characters in LotR and it's all mostly because in D&D, level matters far, far less than class and wealth. Also, Tolkien's works really cannot be represented well in D&D rules. At all.

When fights between two entities can take days, people can still die in one hit, a mortal can outfight a vala (though still lose 'cause it's impossible to actually kill a vala) and so on, it's just not something that really falls under a simple HP paradigm like D&D.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldariel
Also, Tolkien's works really cannot be represented well in D&D rules. At all.

Thank you. Let this be proclaimed throughout the land.



As for Rincewind, he might qualify for one of the Apprentice classes from the 3.0 DMG. Not sure why he would ever actually gain any levels, since running away isn't typically an XP-rich activity.

I could see him having a short stack of luck feats, though. Human bonus feat plus two flaws would give him four at first level, which might allow for some flavorful combos.

[FMArthur]

I have a feeling that this was made specifically for a campaign (useless to outsiders...), and made in the world as some kind of punitive servant role - like someone mindraped by an illithid empire or something to bring out beverages and scrub floors until the end of their days. They are deliberately engineered to have especially weak wills, poor language skills and complete combat ineptitude to make them 100% dependent on their masters and absolutely useless to all others.

If this had the race's (class?) complete story (or was simply made by someone competent) there would probably be some kind of ascendance detailed, akin to retraining. That's how I would handle it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have a feeling that this was made specifically for a campaign (useless to outsiders...), and made in the world as some kind of punitive servant role - like someone mindraped by an illithid empire or something to bring out beverages and scrub floors until the end of their days. They are deliberately engineered to have especially weak wills, poor language skills and complete combat ineptitude to make them 100% dependent on their masters and absolutely useless to all others.

If this had the race's (class?) complete story (or was simply made by someone competent) there would probably be some kind of ascendance detailed, akin to retraining. That's how I would handle it.

Well, the 'fluff', such as it is, pretty much states that it takes a non-sentient animal, and turns it into a Human. Not a furre, not an anthro, a regular ol' human. And, playing the trope straight, they just aren't very good at it.

[Ravens_cry]

This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/anthropomorphic-animal) spell does a better job of, whatever this class is trying to do.

If I was making this class, and even if I wanted it to suck initially, I would add things as it levels. Like first level, you understand language, but can only use gestures and growls in reply. A level or so later you can speak. After that, you can walk on hind legs and use things with your paws, clumsily (a minus to certain skill and attacks) then a level or so later you get hands, removing the penalties, then increasing bonuses to passing as human with the disguise skill.
Capstone would be becoming a Real Boy™
It would still suck, but at least it would do its job, uplifting a beast.

[Palanan]

From their very brief description, it sounds like someone was just trying to stat out one of the uplifted client races from David Brin's Uplift series. These would, in essence, be alien commoners.

It's been a while, but I think the Tymbrimi had a client race that was small, furry, not especially aggressive, but helped out as sidekicks. This might fit them well.

[Ravens_cry]

The Tytlal seemed more competent than this.
Besides, why not just stat out a race and use ordinary Commoner? This class doesn't help a character become uplifted in any way.

[Coidzor]

It's perfect for furries who want a helpless anthropomorphic bunny-rabbit traveling companion who needs you to protect it through every single adventure. I think this character was over-designed to be useless on purpose.

:smallconfused: No it's not, because it creates a human instead of an anthropomorphic animal and tons of hilariously bad furry porn jokes from the rest of the group.

Further, people who need to stat out something like that are kind of missing the point.

[FMArthur]

Also, I don't think it's the worst class ever by any measure. Since the scope of the comparison contains homebrew sources, if the aim is to find the weakest class the bottom of that barrel is arbitrarily low. Here, watch me homebrew something weaker:

{table]

The Gamecrasher{table=head][b]Level|BAB|Ref|Fort|Will|Class Features
1|-100|-100|-100|-100|DM Moves Away[/table][B]DM Moves Away (Ex): Upon attaining first level, you die. Your soul is destroyed utterly and you cannot be revived or interacted with in any way. If an effect would ordinarily provide an exception to this permanence, it ceases to exist and is removed from the multiverse forever, and then you die.[br][B]Special: All characters must take levels in The Gamecrasher when it is introduced to the game.| [/table]

Really this thread should be about the very poorest quality homebrew on the internet, since there's really nothing special about the Commoner Junior.

[Ravens_cry]

I can think of a few ways to make that class worse. One, replace the - one hundred with - infinity, make it so that levles of this class must be taken even if it isn't introduced to the game and add a special class feature that all rolls are automatic failures and no other rule can change that.
But yes, I agree that making an arbitrarily bad class is super easy.

[aabicus]

Hmm, maybe I should make a thread for comparing horrible homebrew classes users can find. I love looking at implemented ideas gone terribly wrong.

I just keep thinking, there must be some way to abuse this build with a creature feat that was never intended for a 1st level PC. Isn't there a creature somewhere in all the hundreds of 3.5 sourcebooks that has a killer feat that could singlehandedly rocket one of these uplifts into Munchkin territories?

[Amechra]

The Tarrasque. A level dip gets you Awesome Blow.

So... a level dip in a sucky class to get an Epic feat...

Wait, I can do it one better: You are an Uplifted Elder Titan. Your Instinct feat is Epic Spellcasting. Note that, while this is against flavor, this is TOTALLY allowed by the crunch.

Or, for other types of fun... a couple other Epic beasties would grant stuff like Spell Stowaway of your choice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Really this thread should be about the very poorest quality homebrew on the internet, since there's really nothing special about the Commoner Junior.

The OP's link DID come from dandwiki... 'poorest quality homebrew on the internet' pretty much describes it completely, but it's not something I would care to engage in discussion about. At least, not before, during, or after meals.

[missmvicious]

:smallconfused: No it's not, because it creates a human instead of an anthropomorphic animal and tons of hilariously bad furry porn jokes from the rest of the group.

Further, people who need to stat out something like that are kind of missing the point.

:smallconfused:

So... it creates something that looks exactly like a human or other race? Somehow, I got it in my head that they at least kept some of their animalistic features... like the ears or a tail or something. If not, then that's probably how it should be re-fluffed... pun intended.

I stick with my original theory, though. The Uplift is supposed to be something you befriend and/or protect in a campaign. It's pitiable enough to want to protect, easy to add into a campaign without it becoming a combat DMPC, and would create a beautifully tragic plot point if it got killed or even just died in it's sleep... human-shaped pet, essentially.

And, which point are they missing? *again, confused* :smallconfused:

[Draz74]

And speaking of skill points, this is the first class I've seen that gives an odd number.

To subvert a comment that has been made several times on this thread ... That's what you get for not trawling dndwiki.

[Ravens_cry]

Oh!
The Dandi Wik . . .wait, I already sang that.:smalltongue:

[Alienist]

... and thus, all truenamers tend to look pretty much alike....

Ob: What? Both of them?

(Sorry) :smallbiggrin:

[Tyndmyr]

Ob: What? Both of them?

(Sorry) :smallbiggrin:

Yeah...everyone knows about them, but almost nobody seems to actually play them. =)

[DoctorGlock]

D&D wiki has been definitively classified as utter trash... and there are worse thing in the system itself.

Maybe not actual classes, but has anyone looked at the petitioner lately?

Let's get this straight...

You love your god so much that you travel to his very plane, necessitating major power travel spells... gate/wish class... in return, your god rewards you with...

You lose all class features
You lose all special qualities
Your HD become 2
You lose all skills
You lose all feats

In fact, this may be worse than the uplift.

[Prime32]

D&D wiki has been definitively classified as utter trash... and there are worse thing in the system itself.

Maybe not actual classes, but has anyone looked at the petitioner lately?

Let's get this straight...

You love your god so much that you travel to his very plane, necessitating major power travel spells... gate/wish class... in return, your god rewards you with...

You lose all class features
You lose all special qualities
Your HD become 2
You lose all skills
You lose all feats

In fact, this may be worse than the uplift....no, being a petitioner is the alternative to being dead. Your soul travels to your god's plane when you die.

[Steward]

To be fair, the SRD explicitly states that petitioners are generally supposed to be NPCs:


The template presented below is for NPCs, not player characters. If dead characters who are petitioners are later restored to life (once again becoming player characters), they forget any of their experiences as petitioners.

This is explicitly a template for the servants and hangers-on of a deity.


I stick with my original theory, though. The Uplift is supposed to be something you befriend and/or protect in a campaign. It's pitiable enough to want to protect, easy to add into a campaign without it becoming a combat DMPC, and would create a beautifully tragic plot point if it got killed or even just died in it's sleep... human-shaped pet, essentially.

Couldn't you do that with almost anything though? You don't need a specific class to do any of those things and I'm not even sure this class even does a good job of filling that role unless it can speak on its own without having to expend one of its few skill points. I like your theory though and it's a good idea but the homebrewer made this class almost cartoonishly feeble. Was it really necessary to prevent it from speaking, for example?

[Coidzor]

So... it creates something that looks exactly like a human or other race? Somehow, I got it in my head that they at least kept some of their animalistic features... like the ears or a tail or something. If not, then that's probably how it should be re-fluffed... pun intended.

There's anthropomorphic animal rules already, they're not that great and have had a fair bit of homebrewing done to bring them up to snuff, but even the official stuff is better than that, because if furries really want to bring their furry fandom into D&D it's going to be by playing furry characters not by playing babysitter to useless, stupid creatures that want to die because they're so pathetic.


I stick with my original theory, though. The Uplift is supposed to be something you befriend and/or protect in a campaign. It's pitiable enough to want to protect, easy to add into a campaign without it becoming a combat DMPC, and would create a beautifully tragic plot point if it got killed or even just died in it's sleep... human-shaped pet, essentially.

That is something that should be handled through roleplay, not by showing the players the 1-20 progression of the class. By 10-20th level there's no need to take something like that with one's self, that's what one has servants and lackeys and private demiplanes and airship yachts for.


And, which point are they missing? *again, confused* :smallconfused:

You don't need a 20 level long class that's even weaker than commoner to begin with. You can do it just fine with unstatted commoners, statted commoners, aristocrats, or even experts and warriors who refuse to acknowledge their statblocks and do anything.


...no, being a petitioner is the alternative to being dead. Your soul travels to your god's plane when you die.

Eh? Alternative? I thought it was just a result of being dead. :smallconfused: And is arguably a fate worse than just ceasing to exist considering all of the mindrape that goes into it. Well, until you find out what the lower planes do with petitioners, anyway.

[NNescio]

I think the point was the fluff.

It's perfect for furries who want a helpless anthropomorphic bunny-rabbit traveling companion who needs you to protect it through every single adventure. I think this character was over-designed to be useless on purpose.

Also, DMPCs are typically considered bad form, but protection quests aren't terribly uncommon (which tends to require a useless DMPC), especially for L1 Characters. I'm in one now in 3.5, and I'm also DM'ing a scripted 4E one (Keep on the Shadowfell). So, at least, by my experience, they happen often enough to require weak DMPCs.

Problem is (in 3.5), even if you don't want your DMPC getting involved in fights, it gets hard to justify to your players why your L1 Commoner doesn't pick up his pitchfork and at least cause a flanking bonus. One look at the Uplifts stats would probably shut the mouths of most players who gripe about how they could use a little help over here.

"She's a useless little bunny, only good for her sex appeal!"

(A cookie to those who can catch the reference without using Google)

But yeah, most of the time you can just use a Hare Hengeyoukai Aristocrat with a level lower than the party average, and at Level 1, well, survivability is pretty much a crapshoot anyway, and you can justify the aristocrat as unwilling to get his hands dirty on trying to flank opponents. Cowardice works too, and for other NPC classes as well.

[missmvicious]

not by playing babysitter to useless, stupid creatures that want to die because they're so pathetic.

Actually... that kind of fantasy exists more often than you may care to admit. Samurai Champloo, Elfin Lied (Nyu version), Blade of the Immortal, Night of the Living Dead (original version) comes to mind right off the cusp. It's the classic damsel in distress motif, actually, but with a magical vein of super helplessness to appeal to a PCs sense of chivalry. But I do see where you're coming from. By the time you hit BAMF levels, guarding a weak damsel type NPC on his/her travels from one town to another while it goes on a quest would probably lose most of its luster.




By 10-20th level there's no need to take something like that with one's self, that's what one has servants and lackeys and private demiplanes and airship yachts for.


Good point. :smallsmile:



You don't need a 20 level long class that's even weaker than commoner to begin with. You can do it just fine with unstatted commoners, statted commoners, aristocrats, or even experts and warriors who refuse to acknowledge their statblocks and do anything.


I wish you were right about that. I've played with players and DM'd for players (who were otherwise fun to play with except for the following character flaw) who insist that an NPC can do something the DM doesn't want it to do by scrolling through the DMG and saying, "Yes, he can do that, and I don't see what the problem is. It's right here in the DMG on page (whatever page here) so if he won't do it of his own volition, then I'll roll an Intimidate check. There. 28. What did you get?" When the fluff is, "This creature is so useless, not even the Playground will optimize him/her," then that just cuts down on unpleasant rule invocations like that. And by having stats that you can show players, like the example player above, shuts up the ever-present follow up argument, "Show me where, in the rules, it says he can't do that."

Of course, I should clarify... I wouldn't use the Uplift in a campaign. I just wouldn't. I'm just trying to see this from the perspective of the person who home-brewed it. In the end, Coidzor, you're right. Far as I can tell, you definitely do not need a 1-20 build of the Uplift. 1-5 tops really, because it's only really good for an L1 campaign that has at least one rule-invoker player in it.

[dgnslyr]

As for Rincewind, he might qualify for one of the Apprentice classes from the 3.0 DMG. Not sure why he would ever actually gain any levels, since running away isn't typically an XP-rich activity.

I could see him having a short stack of luck feats, though. Human bonus feat plus two flaws would give him four at first level, which might allow for some flavorful combos.

Well, overcoming an encounter is worth XP, right? And if your DM throws monsters way above CR and expects you to run, getting away successfully should be worth some XP. It just so happens that a lot of his encounters are "successfully escape the big, scary monster," as opposed to the "successfully defeat the big, scary monster" type of encounter most people are accustomed to.

[tyckspoon]

Well, overcoming an encounter is worth XP, right? And if your DM throws monsters way above CR and expects you to run, getting away successfully should be worth some XP. It just so happens that a lot of his encounters are "successfully escape the big, scary monster," as opposed to the "successfully defeat the big, scary monster" type of encounter most people are accustomed to.

He also has in fact performed significant actions of his own (pretty much all of Interesting Times, defeating Coin.. although by D&D standards that one probably falls under the "if you beat this it was probably a complete fluke. Congratulate your players on still being alive but don't give them XP" clause) and if story/chapter completion XP is assumed to be a thing, he has spades of that too.

[Eldan]

Eh? Alternative? I thought it was just a result of being dead. :smallconfused: And is arguably a fate worse than just ceasing to exist considering all of the mindrape that goes into it. Well, until you find out what the lower planes do with petitioners, anyway.

As a PC, I'd say chances are pretty good that you'd eventually be promoted to some kind of free-willed and powerful outsider. So, not that bad.

[DoctorGlock]

He also has in fact performed significant actions of his own (pretty much all of Interesting Times, defeating Coin.. although by D&D standards that one probably falls under the "if you beat this it was probably a complete fluke. Congratulate your players on still being alive but don't give them XP" clause) and if story/chapter completion XP is assumed to be a thing, he has spades of that too.

He also killed Cthulhu with a brick in a sock.

[Gavinfoxx]

Isn't Gandalf better statted as a level 6 or level 5 paladin than a level 6 or level 5 wizard?

[NNescio]

Isn't Gandalf better statted as a level 6 or level 5 paladin than a level 6 or level 5 wizard?

I prefer Bard myself. Isn't his main shtick Inspire Courage (Oratory) and Bardic Knowledge Lore?

Of course, he's still a Solar in addition to his class levels; he's just forbidden from using those abilities unless he's up against a Balor or something similar.

Meanwhile, Narya is a reslotted Badge of Valor...

[Elfin]

I prefer Bard myself. Isn't his main shtick Inspire Courage (Oratory) and Bardic Knowledge Lore?

Not to mention that the bard spell list covers pretty much every bit of magic he performs.

[Zale]

Well, I haven't looked at many classes on that wiki, but I have seen the races..

People seem to give out extremely overpowered abilities for a really low LA -OR- Use a high LA to justify insane abilities.

Like these (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ictheyin_%283.5e_Race%29) guys, who can manipulate reality as a full-round action.

[DoctorGlock]

Well, I haven't looked at many classes on that wiki, but I have seen the races..

People seem to give out extremely overpowered abilities for a really low LA -OR- Use a high LA to justify insane abilities.

Like these (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ictheyin_%283.5e_Race%29) guys, who can manipulate reality as a full-round action.

Reading that has caused my IQ to drop. What purpose is there to write up a race whose abilities are literally "whatever they want"? It's like he is trying to template Mary Sues.

[Steward]

Reading that has caused my IQ to drop. What purpose is there to write up a race whose abilities are literally "whatever they want"? It's like he is trying to template Mary Sues.

You guys should read more carefully -- it's clearly balanced if you look at RAW:


Ictheyin rarely use their Reality Rewrite ability, instead often limiting their powers, that tasks do not become too easy for them.

See?

[Zale]

Reading that has caused my IQ to drop. What purpose is there to write up a race whose abilities are literally "whatever they want"? It's like he is trying to template Mary Sues.

I thought it was some kind of fish race when I clicked it.

Ictheyin? Sounds sorta fish-like.

There's about twelve or so sub-races of elf on there too.

And a skinless humanoid destined to be chaotic stupid. With +10 Strength. At LA 0. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Denizen_of_Chaos_%283.5e_Race%29)

[Zeta Kai]

Gandalf was not a 5th level wizard. Gandalf was a 20+ leveled Gish/demigod. Things you read at the Alexandrian should not be taken seriously without looking at the sources for yourself.

Speaking of looking at the sources, perhaps you should heed your own advice. Nobody mentioned the Alexandrian, & that link leads elsewhere.

[Zale]

Am I the only one who feels there's something vaguely wrong with this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Higardi_%283.5e_Race%29) race?

[Amechra]

I thought it was some kind of fish race when I clicked it.

Ictheyin? Sounds sorta fish-like.

There's about twelve or so sub-races of elf on there too.

And a skinless humanoid destined to be chaotic stupid. With +10 Strength. At LA 0. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Denizen_of_Chaos_%283.5e_Race%29)

But they are CLEARLY balanced! I would actually say they are a bit underpowered; a -4 to Con and a -6 to Dex means that they are going to be flimsier than other races AND will have less HP.

Let's see... You have to spend A LOT of their point buy into stats that are incredibly important for your little melee characters, and it's not as if they can do ranged, what with their -6 to Dexterity.

So, yeah, they wanted LA +0 and massive Str, but FAILED at balance the opposite direction.

Good job continuing the stereotype, stupid writer!

And I have feeling that the not-at-all-fish were an attempt to model deities as a race. Whoever wrote that was a stupid git. Either that, or a DM tired of having his players kill his gods/important NPCs...

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair, the 'Reality Rewriters' race has LA: n/a, so it's not a playable race. They're not Mary Sue given stats, they're Deus Ex Machina incarnate.

[Steward]

Am I the only one who feels there's something vaguely wrong with this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Higardi_%283.5e_Race%29) race?

While I was staring at the baffling sexism, the absolutely broken stats (LA 0? Really??) snuck up behind me and smashed my head in with a baseball bat. Fortunately, the author appears to be thoughtful and was aware of the problems with his work (in the Discussion tab), so I can respect that he's probably improved significantly since 2008.

I think it's safe to conclude that homebrewing is extremely difficult.

[Zale]

I think it's safe to conclude that homebrewing is extremely difficult.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Except perhaps words detailing the adorableness of kittens.


http://cutepics.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/cute_baby_kitty.jpg

[sreservoir]

well,
It was a bad idea on my part. I think that this might be one of those ideas of mine which is destined for the trash heap. --Noname 10:35, 28 March 2009 (MDT)

but see, this is why peer review.

[lord pringle]

Am I the only one who feels there's something vaguely wrong with this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Higardi_%283.5e_Race%29) race?

My... My god. "The women are often neutral in all ways, but are evil more than good, and far chaotic more than lawful." They're sexism incarnate! I'm horrified!

[horseboy]

Speaking of looking at the sources, perhaps you should heed your own advice. Nobody mentioned the Alexandrian, & that link leads elsewhere.

It's where that Tom-foolery was codified, therefore anytime someone mentions it, he gets blamed.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Behold The Cantripologist! (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cantripologist_%283.5e_Class%29)

[sonofzeal]

Behold The Cantripologist! (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cantripologist_%283.5e_Class%29)
I don't know, "Imitate Spell" is kind of ridiculously awesome once you get it at lvl 5, effectively spontaneous casting off the entire Sor/Wiz list.

[Prime32]

Read the talk page.

It's supposed to be balanced around making up new effects for your spells, like "ray of frost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfFrost.htm) freezes enemies solid if you use enough at the same time". :smallconfused:

[sonofzeal]

Read the talk page.

It's supposed to be balanced around making up new effects for your spells, like "ray of frost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfFrost.htm) freezes enemies solid if you use enough at the same time".
The talk page doesn't say anything about Imitate Spell that I can see....... :smallconfused:

[Prime32]

No, Imitate Spell is unrelated (and wasn't always there), I mean you were supposed to be able to do that anyway without a rule for it. By being clever.

The first block of text mentions Imitate Spell.
An earlier version of the class allowed you to learn a spell of any level as a cantrip if you reduced its effects, with no further explanation.

[Zale]

I can't balance for crap, but.. Enter the Arcanist (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Arcanist_%283.5e_Class%29)!


Arcanist Empowerment: This ability allows the Arcanist to add his age to numerical values of his spells. (example: Dargus, the Evo-Arcanist, Usesw his Magic Missile spell at level 1. The spell causes 2 missiles to strike the target at 1d4+1+his age in damage. As he is a human arcanist and rolled in at 27 years old, his magic missiles each do 29-32 damage each.) This ability is why the creator recommends only allowing humans.

So Mage armor for a, oh, 300 year old elf arcanist would give you... 304 AC!

Unless I'm really missing something here.

[Prime32]

Recommended only humans eh? *plays a human lich*

[Zale]

Or an Elan.

A five thousand year old one.

I could kill entire Pantheons with magic missiles.

[sonofzeal]

Or an Elan.

A five thousand year old one.

I could kill entire Pantheons with magic missiles.
Gods can effectively have most buff spells up 24/7 as a default. Shield renders your Magic Missile storm useless. Mindrape + Love's Pain, however....

[Zale]

Gods can effectively have most buff spells up 24/7 as a default. Shield renders your Magic Missile storm useless. Mindrape + Love's Pain, however....

Disintegrate then.

Passed the Fort Save?

Well take 5d6 + 5000 damage.

Is there any spell that can't be improved by adding 5000 to it's numeric values?

[sonofzeal]

Is there any spell that can't be improved by adding 5000 to it's numeric values?
Yeah, most area of effect spells. You need LoS/LoE to the target, and now the Radius is now... prohibitive, to say the least. The Range gets boosted too, but is only effectively useful right on the extreme edge of that or it'll catch you too.

Also, Celerity now Dazes you for a month. Have fun with that!

[Zale]

Yeah, most area of effect spells. You need LoS/LoE to the target, and now the Radius is now... prohibitive, to say the least. The Range gets boosted too, but is only effectively useful right on the extreme edge of that or it'll catch you too.

Also, Celerity now Dazes you for a month. Have fun with that!

Ouch.

I retract my previous statement.

[sreservoir]

Yeah, most area of effect spells. You need LoS/LoE to the target, and now the Radius is now... prohibitive, to say the least. The Range gets boosted too, but is only effectively useful right on the extreme edge of that or it'll catch you too.

Also, Celerity now Dazes you for a month. Have fun with that!

your next turn isn't numberical. "a" standard action, on the other hand...

[sonofzeal]

your next turn isn't numberical. "a" standard action, on the other hand...
I'm AFB so I can't check the wording, but I expect you'd gain 5000 standard actions and then be dazed for 5000 rounds.

But with a dimmer view of "numerical", then "a" doesn't qualify. Neither would "single", "couple", "none", or "myriad" - even though each of those can be rephrased numerically, they aren't themselves numbers.

But even then, summons would take 5000 rounds to cast. WITHOUT that limit, any spell that takes "a standard action" or even "a swift action" to cast now takes... well, you figure it out. :smalltongue:

[Arcane_Secrets]

I can't balance for crap, but.. Enter the Arcanist (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Arcanist_%283.5e_Class%29)!



So Mage armor for a, oh, 300 year old elf arcanist would give you... 304 AC!

Unless I'm really missing something here.

Tragically, no.

Other ways of breaking this include casting poison, enervation,, and touch of idiocy.

[sreservoir]

I'm AFB so I can't check the wording, but I expect you'd gain 5000 standard actions and then be dazed for 5000 rounds.

But with a dimmer view of "numerical", then "a" doesn't qualify. Neither would "single", "couple", "none", or "myriad" - even though each of those can be rephrased numerically, they aren't themselves numbers.

But even then, summons would take 5000 rounds to cast. WITHOUT that limit, any spell that takes "a standard action" or even "a swift action" to cast now takes... well, you figure it out. :smalltongue:

1 immediate action, actually. so you'll need 5001 immediates to cast celerity.

[Eldariel]

Tragically, no.

Other ways of breaking this include casting poison, enervation,, and touch of idiocy.

In general, casting a spell with numeric values breaks this class. It's almost as bad as Tainted Scholar in that it scales by a nearly limitless number (BECOME LICH, ENTER FAST TIME PROGRESSION PLANE, HAVE FUN!), but unlike with Tainted Scholar, it's not limited in what it scales. *sigh*

[sreservoir]

necropolitan works, too!

[aabicus]

The spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Uplift_Creature_%283.5e_Spell%29) attached to the Uplift class is interesting. So apparently if awaken is cast on the uplift it can gain a higher Int and actually be able to speak, something several people in this thread have complained about.

However, awaken is Drd 5 and costs XP, while this spell is Drd 4. I'm not sure why any character would want to burn XP on one of these things.

[Steward]

In general, casting a spell with numeric values breaks this class. It's almost as bad as Tainted Scholar in that it scales by a nearly limitless number (BECOME LICH, ENTER FAST TIME PROGRESSION PLANE, HAVE FUN!), but unlike with Tainted Scholar, it's not limited in what it scales. *sigh*

I think the best part is, a few lines after recommending that only humans be allowed to take the class, a elven arcanist is quoted, exploiting that very gimmick.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The spell (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Uplift_Creature_%283.5e_Spell%29) attached to the Uplift class is interesting. So apparently if awaken is cast on the uplift it can gain a higher Int and actually be able to speak, something several people in this thread have complained about.

However, awaken is Drd 5 and costs XP, while this spell is Drd 4. I'm not sure why any character would want to burn XP on one of these things.

An uplifted is apparently not sentient, despite having a humanoid form, since the spell is a Polymorph effect. If you want a sentient servant, you will need to Awaken it.

[Big Fau]

That Wiki's homebrew section is 90% crap.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That Wiki's homebrew section is 90% crap.

Only 90%? I think you give it too much credit...

[Big Fau]

Only 90%? I think you give it too much credit...

Last I checked, the Wiki was cross-hosting the Tomes material. If so, there's the 10%.

Of course, YMMV on the Tome material itself.

[aabicus]

An uplifted is apparently not sentient, despite having a humanoid form, since the spell is a Polymorph effect. If you want a sentient servant, you will need to Awaken it.

I don't know, I think its trying to imply that an Uplift in in a state of semi-sentience, or something. Since an Uplift can learn to speak on its own by spending two skill points and all. Without awaken, each individual's sentience is dependent on their own willpower.

[OracleofWuffing]

However, awaken is Drd 5 and costs XP, while this spell is Drd 4. I'm not sure why any character would want to burn XP on one of these things.
Conceptually, you could invest in making the Uplifted stronger so you could gain more experience from killing it to offset the experience that you invested. That's like a niche of a niche of a use, though, and probably requires several DM adjudications to work.

Also, Dragon Warrior 4 spoiler,
It's Healy.

[dextercorvia]

But even then, summons would take 5000 rounds to cast. WITHOUT that limit, any spell that takes "a standard action" or even "a swift action" to cast now takes... well, you figure it out. :smalltongue:

Casting time isn't an effect, so that wouldn't be added to.

[ericgrau]

This class also isn't proficient with "any" weapon. Without optimization, it probably couldn't even hit something, let alone kill it. The "instinct" is the closest thing this class has to a game-breaker, but I can't find a creature feat that would be really, really useful.

Also, missmvicious is probably right. The page even lampshades it: "They do not tend to live very long."
The best I found so far for instinct was flyby attack. Add a magic item that gives temporary flight X/day and you have an ok hit and run combatant. Awesome blow + some method of large size is another option, though I dunno whether or not there are animals with awesome blow; I'd imagine there's one somewhere.

[Steward]

Conceptually, you could invest in making the Uplifted stronger so you could gain more experience from killing it to offset the experience that you invested. That's like a niche of a niche of a use, though, and probably requires several DM adjudications to work.

Also, Dragon Warrior 4 spoiler,
It's Healy.

It worries me that a class's main benefits can barely -- with luck -- offset its drawbacks.

[aabicus]

The best I found so far for instinct was flyby attack. Add a magic item that gives temporary flight X/day and you have an ok hit and run combatant. Awesome blow + some method of large size is another option, though I dunno whether or not there are animals with awesome blow; I'd imagine there's one somewhere.

The tarrasque has Awesome Blow, though the fact that the spellcaster needs to pass a Will Save to convert the creature and on top of that the creature can negate with a fortitude save means that a tarrasque would be astronomically difficult to uplift. But of course we're talking hypothetically here anyway.

I agree that flyby attack is a great choice for the bonus feat though. Maybe add improved initiative and something that increases speed through offset flaws. If there was a way to move after attacking would be nice too.

[Amechra]

You know what breaks the Uplift?

Aspect of the Wolf+Feeblemind+Uplift Creature=You can uplift ANY creature.

Then use Heal on that little thing to give it back its intellect.

You know, or smack them with a Bestow Greater Curse... Mmm... Int 1 with barely a problem.

And that's pretty easy to remove, as well.

Only problem is that Aspect of the Wolf is Personal in range, but, well... the prereqs for a Spellguard of Silverymoon are so easy to get into... sure, it means that you don't actually gain any advancement to your spellcasting, but do this in Gestalt/on a cohort...

And the 4th level class feature for a Spellguard of Silverymoon is... the ability to use Personal range "defensive" spells as a Touch spell. So the spell has to give a bonus to AC, to Saves, or extra HP (the ability specifies this), and, hey, lookit that, it sets your Con to that of a Wolf, which, after another casting of Bestow Greater Curse, is ALWAYS a bonus to HP (which is one of the cases allowed in the Spellguard class feature).

So, as long as you can get an allied creature (one that, say, wanted to be a Human for some reason/plot) to willingly accept a pair of Curses, you can cast this spell on them and then Uplift them into bliss.

And then...


The Tarrasque. A level dip gets you Awesome Blow.

So... a level dip in a sucky class to get an Epic feat...

Wait, I can do it one better: You are an Uplifted Elder Titan. Your Instinct feat is Epic Spellcasting. Note that, while this is against flavor, this is TOTALLY allowed by the crunch.

Or, for other types of fun... a couple other Epic beasties would grant stuff like Spell Stowaway of your choice.