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NeoSeraphi
2011-12-30, 12:10 PM
The Weapon Master

Prerequisites: To become a weapon master, you must meet the following prerequisites

Base Attack Bonus: +5
Feats: Weapon Focus (Any Weapon), Weapon Specialization (Any Weapon)

Hit Dice: d12
Class Skills: The weapon master's class skills are Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge (Local), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Swim.
Skill Points: 4+Int per level

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Weapon of Choice, Keen Edge

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Flurry of Strikes

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Greater Weapon Focus

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Weakening Strike

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Heavy Hitter

6th|+6|+5|+2|+2|Greater Weapon Specialization

7th|+7|+5|+2|+2|Sweeping Blow

8th|+8|+6|+2|+2|Improved Flurry of Strikes

9th|+9|+6|+3|+3|Weapon Supremacy

10th|+10|+7|+3|+3|Weapon Master
[/table]

Class Features: The following are the class features of the weapon master.

Weapon of Choice (Ex): A weapon master selects a single weapon when he takes his first level of this class. It becomes his chosen weapon, and is the only weapon he can use for any of his class features. The weapon must be a weapon that he has the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats for. It can be any weapon, melee or ranged, simple or exotic, even an unarmed strike, natural attack, or shield. The weapon master receives a +10 bonus on Appraise checks made to identify the quality of any weapon he finds of the same type as his chosen weapon, and also receives a +10 bonus on Craft checks made to create and repair weapons of the same type as his chosen weapon.

Keen Edge (Ex): A weapon master receives Improved Critical as a bonus feat for his chosen weapon. He need not meet the prerequisites. If he already has the Improved Critical feat for his chosen weapon, he receives no benefit from this class feature.

Flurry of Strikes (Ex): A weapon master who is at least 2nd level may use the Flurry of Strikes ability. He may only use this ability when wielding his chosen weapon, and may not attack with any other weapon during the same round (including as part of the flurry of strikes). As part of a full round attack, the weapon master may make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus. This ability stacks with other such abilities, like the Flurry of Blows class feature, the Rapid Shot feat or the haste spell.

Greater Weapon Focus (Ex): A weapon master receives Greater Weapon Focus as a bonus feat for his chosen weapon at 3rd level. He need not meet the prerequisites.

Weakening Strike (Ex): As a standard action, a weapon master of 4th level or higher may make a single attack with his chosen weapon at his highest attack bonus. If his attack hits and deals damage, he may also deal 1d6 points of ability damage to the creature. The weapon master chooses which ability score to deal damage to when the strike is made. This ability damage is multiplied on a critical hit, using the chosen weapon's critical multiplier (but only to creatures who are vulnerable to critical hits).

Heavy Hitter (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a weapon master treats his chosen weapon as if its critical multiplier was increased by 1. (x2 to x3, x3 to x4, x4 to x5). This ability only applies as long as the weapon master wields his chosen weapon.

Greater Weapon Specialization (Ex): At 6th level, the weapon master receives Greater Weapon Specialization for his chosen weapon as a bonus feat. He need not meet the prerequisites.

Sweeping Blow (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a weapon master's reach with his chosen weapon increases by 5 feet. This is not apparent to his enemies at first. If the weapon master's chosen weapon is a ranged weapon, he instead doubles its range limit and only takes a -1 penalty to hit per range increment beyond that. (This bonus stacks with the Far Shot feat)

Improved Flurry of Strikes (Ex): A weapon master of 8th level or higher's Flurry of Strikes ability improves. The weapon master now receives a second additional attack with his chosen weapon when he uses Flurry of Strikes.

Weapon Supremacy (Ex): A weapon master of 9th level and higher gains the Weapon Supremacy feat (PHB II) as a bonus feat for his chosen weapon. He need not meet the prerequisites.

Weapon Master (Ex): A 10th level weapon master is a warrior without peer. As a standard action, he is able to make a single melee attack at his highest attack bonus against every enemy creature within his reach, with his chosen weapon. If his chosen weapon is a ranged weapon, he instead now ignores the penalties that creatures receive against him for cover or being prone, and he also adds his Dexterity modifier to weapon damage rolls with his chosen weapon.

Domriso
2011-12-30, 12:47 PM
I would love to play an unarmed fighter with this class. It just sounds like a hell of a lot of fun.

I like the abilities. Pretty simple, but they do what they're supposed. I was too lazy to look up some of those feats, but I'm sure they fit the theme.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-30, 12:51 PM
I would love to play an unarmed fighter with this class. It just sounds like a hell of a lot of fun.

I like the abilities. Pretty simple, but they do what they're supposed. I was too lazy to look up some of those feats, but I'm sure they fit the theme.

Yes, but I think a straight fighter will appreciate the upgrade. More skill points, better class skills, less feats, but more specialization on his chosen weapon.

bobthe6th
2011-12-30, 01:18 PM
the oath is to harsh. now the fighter is even more limited, down to only using one weapon. just get rid of the oath, as none of the class features would apply to other weapons. it would still penalize the class for useing another weapon, but allow the fighter to matter in combats he is not specialized for(ie. if he choses falchion, he would need a bow against ranged foes). otherwise the class looks nice.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-30, 01:21 PM
the oath is to harsh. now the fighter is even more limited, down to only using one weapon. just get rid of the oath, as none of the class features would apply to other weapons. it would still penalize the class for useing another weapon, but allow the fighter to matter in combats he is not specialized for(ie. if he choses falchion, he would need a bow against ranged foes). otherwise the class looks nice.

Alright, I removed it.

Cieyrin
2011-12-30, 01:35 PM
Weapon of Choice seems...odd. So I can use any other weapon provided I do nonlethal damage?

As for Weakening Strike, that seems open to abuse for crits, as combined with Heavy Hitter and Keen Edge, a Weapon Master using a Rapier or other 18-20/x2 weapon is putting out 15-20/x3, which when applied to Weakening Strike means 25% of Weakening Strikes are dealing 3-18 Con (b/c, let's face it, hitting Con hurts the most out of any of the ability damages unless you're looking to cripple or capture), effectively at will. I don't think any other ability damage gets multiplied and for good reason. I'm not saying cut the ability, as it makes sense for someone with this level of skill to be able to pick people apart, I'm just saying remove the crit effect. I don't even want to imagine if Kaorti Resin gets mixed into this (15-20/x5 :smalleek:).

bobthe6th
2011-12-30, 01:36 PM
seems good then. hands out more feats then fighter levels would, but the are pre chosen, and heavily specialized. I like it.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-30, 01:42 PM
Weapon of Choice seems...odd. So I can use any other weapon provided I do nonlethal damage?


No. There was an oath. I removed it. Forgot to update Weapon of Choice. Basically, you just pick a weapon and you only use that weapon.



As for Weakening Strike, that seems open to abuse for crits, as combined with Heavy Hitter and Keen Edge, a Weapon Master using a Rapier or other 18-20/x2 weapon is putting out 15-20/x3, which when applied to Weakening Strike means 25% of Weakening Strikes are dealing 3-18 Con (b/c, let's face it, hitting Con hurts the most out of any of the ability damages unless you're looking to cripple or capture), effectively at will. I don't think any other ability damage gets multiplied and for good reason. I'm not saying cut the ability, as it makes sense for someone with this level of skill to be able to pick people apart, I'm just saying remove the crit effect. I don't even want to imagine if Kaorti Resin gets mixed into this (15-20/x5 :smalleek:).

It's supposed to be crit abusable. It's your only standard action ability, and it should be able to seriously hurt, like a maneuver.

Considering your full-attack action is so strong (6 attacks at level 20, 3 at your highest attack bonus, more if you have ways to increase it like haste, the speed enhancement, Flurry of Blows or Rapid Shot), then your standard action attack has to be powerful enough to keep up.

Yes, with the right build this can turn into a devastatingly crippling ability, and even a no-save-just-die if you're attacking a creature with low Str, Dex or Con. But it's your only skirmish ability, and since melee fighters are so bad at dealing with mobility, I thought they could use a boon.

Edit: Also, other ability damage can be multiplied easily! For instance, poison is a weaponlike spell, so if you crit with it, you deal 2d10 Constitution damage instead of 1d10. :smallconfused: I don't see why I can't allow my stat damage to crit too.

bobthe6th
2011-12-30, 01:55 PM
man, now I want to gestalt a razor//fighter/weapon master for some insane mass attacks...

also, the abilaty damage is a bit of a just die affect. perhaps make it deal more damage then a normal strike, like a D&D x2 per attack you could make on a full attack. then it becomes a basket for all of your eggs on a charge...

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-30, 02:14 PM
also, the abilaty damage is a bit of a just die affect. perhaps make it deal more damage then a normal strike, like a D&D x2 per attack you could make on a full attack. then it becomes a basket for all of your eggs on a charge...

I have no interest in more damage. That's boring, and if you want more damage, you better just set yourself up for a full attack. More options is always better, so the ability to deal ability score damage is more interesting and useful.

eftexar
2011-12-30, 03:54 PM
It's definitely straightforward, but adds a much needed boost to classes like the fighter and does it rather elegantly considering the fact it mostly just grants extra feats.
The only thing that irritates me is the keen edge ability. I don't remember in particular if improved critical has any feats based off of it, but if it does (and it probably does), players might still get stuck taking the improved critical feat making this sort of meh. All you would need to add is that any feat that he qualifies for because of keen edge only applies to the weapon in question.
I would have to agree with you on the damage thing though. I actually did some math last night (I got bored) and with considerably few feats (between 3 and 8 depending on the fighting style) the fighter can actually meet the average of the 10d6-20d6 die spellcasters dish out anyways (more if they score a crit).

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-30, 04:00 PM
It's definitely straightforward, but adds a much needed boost to classes like the fighter and does it rather elegantly considering the fact it mostly just grants extra feats.
The only thing that irritates me is the keen edge ability. I don't remember in particular if improved critical has any feats based off of it, but if it does (and it probably does), players might still get stuck taking the improved critical feat making this sort of meh. All you would need to add is that any feat that he qualifies for because of keen edge only applies to the weapon in question.

Improved Critical has a BAB prerequisite of +8. If you enter the class at 6th level, there's no way you could already have it.

eftexar
2011-12-30, 04:11 PM
I wasn't even considering if you had it or not. I was just talking about feat prerequisites.
If I take this PrC and wanted to take a feat that requires improved critical, I still have to take the improved critical feat to qualify for it. And since critical bonuses don't stack (unless you have a DM that lets you use 3.0 and third party books) it becomes a wasted feature.
Now this might not be an issue, because many classes do this and it is only one feature, but melee can definitely use a little bit of help in the scoring a crit area.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-30, 04:14 PM
I wasn't even considering if you had it or not. I was just talking about feat prerequisites.
If I take this PrC and wanted to take a feat that requires improved critical, I still have to take the improved critical feat to qualify for it. And since critical bonuses don't stack (unless you have a DM that lets you use 3.0 and third party books) it becomes a wasted feature.
Now this might not be an issue, because many classes do this and it is only one feature, but melee can definitely use a little bit of help in the scoring a crit area.

Why do you say that? The text of the feature says "You get Improved Critical as a bonus feat". So no, you don't need to take it again. :smallconfused:

eftexar
2011-12-30, 04:18 PM
whoop... Did you change it from its original post or am I just blind? Sorry...

edit > Just woke up, and I have a bad habit of skimming.

NeoSeraphi
2011-12-30, 04:19 PM
whoop... Did you change it from its original post or am I just blind... Sorry.

Nope, that's how it's always been. :smallconfused:

LibrarianHuntar
2012-01-22, 11:54 AM
Nice, much better than the Complete Warrior Kensai and Oriental adventures Weapon Master.

Ashardalon125
2012-10-14, 09:21 PM
This definitely improves the power of fighters. I see no problem in choosing one weapon above the others. It just shows you are focused on that one weapon. Now not to try and break it or anything, but can anyone do the math for a kaorti resin scimitar wielder. I imagine it's gotta be pretty high.

Ashardalon125
2012-10-14, 09:23 PM
Definitely provides a nice boost to fighters. Can anyone do the math for a kaorti-resin scimitars? I'd really like to see those numbers.

Lord_Gareth
2012-10-14, 09:43 PM
This...does not improve the power of Fighters. Actually, it lags pretty far behind resources that are already available and makes the key mistake of thinking that Fighters can be improved by giving them bigger numbers. Paizo and Frank & K already tried that, and the jury has rendered the verdict of it doesn't help any.

More importantly, the key non-feat features of this class can already be replicated by single-classed fighters that are wise about their feat selection, mostly through Martial Study and Martial Stance (in particular, the Nightmare Blade maneuver line, the Mongoose boost line, and various kinds of Shadow Hand). So I could spend ten levels pretending very hard to be a Warblade that dipped Swordsage...or I can play a Warblade, and do all of this easier, faster, and ultimately better and with an equally-attractive skill list. Being married to one weapon while pretending to be a Warblade is just putting more insult to the injury.

Ashardalon125
2012-10-14, 09:47 PM
Hmm, personally, never having used a warblade, I wouldn't know. If you could direct me to a discussion where someone could explain the warblade, I'd happily take a look.:smallsmile:

Lord_Gareth
2012-10-14, 09:51 PM
Hmm, personally, never having used a warblade, I wouldn't know. If you could direct me to a discussion where someone could explain the warblade, I'd happily take a look.:smallsmile:

Luckily for you, the Warblade (and the text of every single maneuver from Tome of Battle including the ones he doesn't actually get) are freely and legally available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) for your perusal and use. There's also a handy guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193992) written by several of our very own forum members (warning: don't reply to the guide thread, as it's old enough for that to be necromancy).

EDIT: Sorry, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) are the maneuvers - in handy printable form!

Ashardalon125
2012-10-14, 09:54 PM
Many thanks. I will take a look! While you are on this thread, could you maybe suggest ways for this PrC to actually have a point?

Lord_Gareth
2012-10-14, 10:00 PM
Many thanks. I will take a look! While you are on this thread, could you maybe suggest ways for this PrC to actually have a point?

Difficult, actually. There's only so many ways to really exploit the, "I have mastered one weapon," niche and most of those classes are either already solid (Kensai) or in desperate need of improvement (Anointed Knight). A full or perhaps 3/4 initiator level progression (that's for Tome of Battle - Warblade and his ilk - classes) would at least make it less painful and perhaps attractive for people aiming at the flavor of mastering a single weapon, but again so much of that can already be done with maneuvers that it seems a little pointless.

Now, I could see this class opening up new possibilities with weapons that might not already be there. It has some of that, a little - like the increased reach thing - but that theme could be expanded upon much further. If Neo collapsed it down to a five-level class I could see it having a setup kinda like the Master Thrower (CWar) where each level you pick from a list of cool tricks that you can then apply to your weapon. Daggers that ricohet back to your hand! Swords that trip like spiked chains! Even stranger things! And you'd really want to go odd in order to avoid redundancy - a level is an expensive price to pay to get a trick.

Ashardalon125
2012-10-14, 10:06 PM
I see your point. Maybe like you said a 5 level condensed.Hmm, I could see this. Maybe it could be worth time working on (not that I'm that good.). Then it would be a consideration. You sir, have opened my eyes. *bow*

Amechra
2012-10-14, 10:09 PM
I'd also like to mention that Chosen Weapon seems to imply that all of your class features can only be used with a single instance of a given weapon.

So, to make an example, let's say you pick a longsword. Your longsword is destroyed, either due to a casting of Shatter, being sundered, the attack of a Rust Monster or one of the hundred other ways to destroy an object... you can't use any of your class features.

Besides, you still don't have any interesting options other than "I attack" until you hit Weakening Strike, which, by the way, does it replace the damage you normally would deal, or does it stack with the damage you normally deal.

Also, "penalties" in that last ability needs to be replaced by "benefits", or else it makes no sense.

So, yeah, I do not like this prestige class.

Ashardalon125
2012-10-14, 10:12 PM
I see your point. It kinda kills you if even one thing goes wrong. This class has a possible potential, but it has to be reworked. I may take Lord_Gareth's suggestions and try my hand at a fix.

Lord_Gareth
2012-10-14, 10:14 PM
I see your point. It kinda kills you if even one thing goes wrong. This class has a possible potential, but it has to be reworked. I may take Lord_Gareth's suggestions and try my hand at a fix.

If you do it's normally considered polite around here to credit the original author (in this case, NeoSeraphi) with the inspiration, just as a heads-up.

Ashardalon125
2012-10-14, 10:15 PM
I sincerely apologize. I should have given more credit to him (and probably asked permission too). My bad.

gkathellar
2012-10-14, 10:16 PM
On a read-through, I have to say that I'm really not seeing a lot of draw here. You can break down most of the levels along these lines:
At levels 1, 3, 6, 9 and 10, you get a subpar bonus feat a little earlier than a fighter of the same level could get it. Given that the Weapon Focus line is pretty uniformly terrible, that's actually something of a negative power differential. 10th level is Whirlwind Attack, so you may as well call it by its name.
At levels 2 and 8, you get extra attacks. That's not bad, mind, but it's not great either, and in return you have to take 8 levels of this class.
At level 3, there's ... well. There's all of one reason to take levels in Weapon Master, and that's Weakening Strike. With luck and efficient abuse, Weakening Strike can border on Shivering Touch levels of broken. I guess that encourages a 4-level dip, but honestly the ability cannot stay as is, because shutting down an entire because you rolled a natural 20 is problematic. It doesn't help that the ability is incompatible with other aspects of the class (Flurry in particular).
At level 5, you get an increase to critical modifier. Again, that's not strictly bad, but it's not worth taking 5 levels for.
At level 7, you get 5 ft of reach or a Far Shot analogue. At character level 12, when the sorcerer has just learned to literally turn people into dust.
So ... the problem here is that you have a mix of non-abilities, bad abilities, and one ability with so much potential for to be useless or useful that it's impossible to get a clear read on. It doesn't help that most of what you have here is passive, and therefore boring. I would recommend remodeling the class with a much greater quotient of active abilities, possibly even as an Initiator class that uses ToB as a base.

Lord_Gareth
2012-10-14, 10:17 PM
I sincerely apologize. I should have given more credit to him (and probably asked permission too). My bad.

Oh, no, not at all my friend; I was telling you so that if you decided to go through with it you'd credit Neo in the opening post. You haven't actually done anything rude/wrong/brain-bendingly horrifying yet :P

Ashardalon125
2012-10-14, 10:17 PM
So shall we call this one a not-so-success and simply go with what works?

Lord_Gareth
2012-10-14, 10:25 PM
So shall we call this one a not-so-success and simply go with what works?

That's for Neo to decide, really. It wouldn't be the first time he chose to stand by a class with a sharply limited niche. All we can really do is offer advice and critique, which we have done, and also answer related questions, which we have also done.

If you've got work of your own, by all means post some! If you like, you can also drop be a PM and I can link you to a few competitions around here - all of them are very newbie-friendly and have vigorous review cultures that can help you make your work the best it can be.

Ashardalon125
2012-10-14, 10:28 PM
Okay then. Makes sense. I think I might try my hand at some of those later, but I've got a project in the works. I might take you up on it later. Thanks for being so helpful!

NeoSeraphi
2012-11-06, 12:02 AM
I have two different styles of homebrew when I'm working on melee classes: Fixes and personal style choices.

I have played with seven different DMs who have banned the Tome of Battle classes, and for that reason I have never personally desired to incorporate the initiator system into my homebrew (with the exception of the Warblade/Barbarian prestige hybrid I made). People like the initiator system as it is, and I do as well, so there's no need for me to try and fix it. However, I don't like the system enough to use it for my own material, so I don't (and in my opinion, using a system that gets banned as often as this one in my homebrew is not a good idea, as I want to make homebrew that will be accepted in most games by most DMs).

Now, the Weapon Master prestige class is designed to compliment the fighter class as written in the PHB. The reason I wrote the class like this is because I've looked through all of the sourcebooks and have found no good prestige classes for the fighter as is, while there are plenty for paladins, barbarians, and rangers (though most of them are not "good" for rangers).

That said, the purpose of this class is not to "fix" the fighter, it is to improve it in a niche, but logical way, similar to the mindbender improving enchanters or the master of many forms improving the wildshaper. Like those two classes, by the way, many will argue that the niche of the class prevents it from even being a complete improvement on the original base class, and I'm fine with that.

If I was trying to fix the fighter, I would have made a whole new base class (which I did, by the way (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209757)).

Lord_Gareth
2012-11-06, 12:30 PM
Now, the Weapon Master prestige class is designed to compliment the fighter class as written in the PHB. The reason I wrote the class like this is because I've looked through all of the sourcebooks and have found no good prestige classes for the fighter as is, while there are plenty for paladins, barbarians, and rangers (though most of them are not "good" for rangers).

That said, the purpose of this class is not to "fix" the fighter, it is to improve it in a niche, but logical way, similar to the mindbender improving enchanters or the master of many forms improving the wildshaper. Like those two classes, by the way, many will argue that the niche of the class prevents it from even being a complete improvement on the original base class, and I'm fine with that.

It's not just not a complete improvement on the original base class. It's bad for the niche too. This is strictly worse than taking levels in straight Fighter, because it cuts away meaningful options. Like I've said in some of your other threads, this class has no purpose in existing.

Also, there's plenty of good fighter prestige classes. The trouble is that 'fighter' is incredibly broad. Cavalier is a fighter PrC. Thayan Knight is a fighter PrC. Thrown Weapon Master is a fighter PrC, Tempest is a fighter PrC, and Hulking Hurler is a fighter PrC. Like wizards, 'fighter' is so broad that it encompasses more concepts than it can reasonably turn into a single class. Unlike Wizard, 'fighter' is a terribly made class. Why create yet another trap option with which to punish Fighter players?

NeoSeraphi
2012-11-06, 10:36 PM
It's not just not a complete improvement on the original base class. It's bad for the niche too. This is strictly worse than taking levels in straight Fighter, because it cuts away meaningful options. Like I've said in some of your other threads, this class has no purpose in existing.

And like I said to you before, options are not the only thing about a class that's important.

The fighter doesn't give many options anyway, and if you were planning to use your bonus feats for the Weapon Focus line to begin with, this class is better than fighter. More hit points, more attacks per round, and the ability to inflict ability damage, as well as getting Weapon Supremacy very early.



Also, there's plenty of good fighter prestige classes. The trouble is that 'fighter' is incredibly broad. Cavalier is a fighter PrC. Thayan Knight is a fighter PrC. Thrown Weapon Master is a fighter PrC, Tempest is a fighter PrC, and Hulking Hurler is a fighter PrC. Like wizards, 'fighter' is so broad that it encompasses more concepts than it can reasonably turn into a single class. Unlike Wizard, 'fighter' is a terribly made class. Why create yet another trap option with which to punish Fighter players?

Hulking Hurler is not a PC PrC, since you have to be Large to get into it.

Tempest is a fighter PrC for a terrible niche (two-weapon fighting with no source of bonus damage).

Cavalier is a fighter PrC for a rarely used fighting style, as mounts are sometimes obstructive and hard to use in a real game where you have to climb ladders, go underground, fight at night when your mount can't see, and etc.

Additionally, each of the PrCs you named increases the power of the niche it is intended for but does not offer any other options, yet you say they are "good" classes. So what makes them better than the Weapon Master?

By the way, not one of those classes gives bonus feats, so don't even try to pretend they give more options than the base fighter.

Amechra
2012-11-06, 11:38 PM
The thing is, they give options distinct to those that a normal Fighter gets.

That's his point.

EDIT: And he didn't say that all of those PrCs were good either; he just mentioned that they are, conceptually, Fighter PrCs.

Plus, it is trivial to get into Hulking Hurler, really; there are several ways to play as a large creature without too much LA, and non-spellcasters really don't mind racial HD too much.