Crusader Archers?

[NeoSeraphi]

It's no secret: Tome of Battle is a melee book. The melee-specific proficiencies, maneuvers only work for melee weapons, blah blah archery in 3.5 is terrible and unsupported, moving on.

But what strikes me as odd is, of the three powerful warriors that are presented in the Book of Nine Swords, the crusader is the one who gets straight bow proficiency. The crusader. Not the limber swordsage or the intelligent warblade, no. The guy who gets tower shield proficiency (by RAW), and heavy armor proficiency, along with Smiting and the classic tanking abilities Furious Counterstrike and Steely Resolve, along with the Devoted Spirit discipline, which heals and uses stances to keep enemy attention on you.

What do all of you have to say about this? Why would WotC give the paladin fix the ability to fire longbows, but not the monk/rogue fix or the fighter fix?

[Greenish]

Who knows what evil lurks in the minds of men WotC designers?

Why doesn't warblade get Ride, for example, while the others do? Why do swordsages have Listen but no Spot?


As a side note, maneuvers do work with ranged attacks. Most (but not all) strikes require a melee attack, yes, but there are many maneuvers that work for archers, too.

[Darrin]

What do all of you have to say about this? Why would WotC give the paladin fix the ability to fire longbows, but not the monk/rogue fix or the fighter fix?

I think the current theory is it was just an oversight, and the designers/editors failed to notice that the Crusader was still proficient with ranged weapons. Either that or the Crusader was seen as filling more of a "support role", since most of their maneuvers tend to focus on buffing allies, and maybe ranged weapons were perceived as more suited to support/"less front-liney".

I thought I had posted some stuff on Ranged Crusaders before, but apparently not... here's an older post about Ranged Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11918094&postcount=16), and most of that I reworked into a post for the Warblade handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10296220&postcount=420).

From my notes on Crusaders...

Sample maneuver progression:

Crusader 1: Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack [stance]
Crusader 2: Bolstering Voice [stance]
Crusader 3: Shield Block
Crusader 4: Mountain Hammer (replacing Stone Bones)
Crusader 5: White Raven Tactics
Crusader 6: Lion's Roar (replacing Douse the Flames)
Crusader 7: Covering Strike
Crusader 8: Revitalizing Strike (replacing Vanguard Strike), Giant's Stance [stance]
Crusader 9: Flanking Maneuver, Martial Stance: Press the Advantage [stance]
Crusader 10: Elder Mountain Hammer (replacing Charging Minotaur)
Crusader 11: Order Forged From Chaos
Crusader 12: Rallying Strike (replacing Crusader's Strike)
Crusader 13: Shield Counter
Crusader 14: Clarion Call (replacing Covering Strike), Aura of Chaos [stance]
Crusader 15: White Raven Hammer, Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude [stance]
Crusader 16: Ancient Mountain Hammer (replacing Mountain Hammer)
Crusader 17: Strike of Righteous Vitality
Crusader 18: War Master's Charge (replacing Flanking Maneuver), Martial Stance: Swarm Tactics
Crusader 19: Mountain Tombstone Strike
Crusader 20: Earthstrike Quake (replacing Shield Counter)


Eternal Crusbow

1) Crusader 1. IL 1.0. Feat: PB Shot.
2) Crusader 2. IL 2.0.
3) Crusader 3. IL 3.0. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Crusader 4. IL 4.0.
5) Crusader 5. IL 5.0.
6) Crusader 6. IL 6.0. Feat: Manyshot.
7) Crusader 7. IL 7.0.
8) Crusader 8. IL 8.0.
9) Crusader 9. IL 9.0. Feat: Weapon Focus.
10) Crusader 10. IL 10.0.
11) Eternal Blade 1. IL 11.0.
12) Eternal Blade 2. IL 12.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot.
13) Eternal Blade 3. IL 13.0.
14) Eternal Blade 4. IL 14.0.
15) Eternal Blade 5. IL 15.0. Feat: Travel Devotion/Precise Shot. Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
16) Eternal Blade 6. IL16.0.
17) Eternal Blade 7. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still.
18) Eternal Blade 8. IL 18.0. Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude.
19) Eternal Blade 9. IL 19.0.
20) Eternal Blade 10. IL 20.0. Island in Time.


Palawindicator build

1) Paladin 1. IL 0.5. Feat: PB Shot, Human: Travel Devotion.
2) Paladin 2. IL 1.0.
3) Paladin 3. IL 1.5. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Paladin 4. IL 2.0.
5) Crusader 1. IL 3.0.
6) RKV1. IL 4.0. Feat: Manyshot.
7) RKV2. IL 5.0.
8) RKV3. IL 6.0.
9) RKV4. IL 7.0. Feat: Greater Manyshot.
10) RKV5. IL 8.0.
11) RKV6. IL 9.0. Feat: Battle Blessing, Stance: Press the Advantage.
12) RKV7. IL 10.0.
13) Crusader 2. IL 11.0. Stance: Aura of Chaos.
14) RKV8. IL 12.0.
15) RKV9. IL 13.0. Feat: Extra Turning.
16) RKV10. IL14.0.
17) Crusader 3. IL 15.0.
18) Crusader 4. IL 16.0. Feat: Extra Turning.
19) Crusader 5. IL 17.0.
20) Crusader 6. IL 18.0. Stance: Immortal Fortitude.


Eternal Windicator

1) Paladin 1. IL 0.5. Feat: PB Shot.
2) Paladin 2. IL 1.0.
3) Paladin 3. IL 1.5. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Paladin 4. IL 2.0.
5) Crusader 1. IL 3.0.
6) RKV1. IL 4.0. Feat: Manyshot.
7) RKV2. IL 5.0. Divine Recovery.
8) RKV3. IL 6.0.
9) RKV4. IL 7.0. Feat: Weapon Focus.
10) RKV5. IL 8.0.
11) Eternal Blade 1. IL 9.0.
12) Eternal Blade 2. IL 10.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot.
13) Eternal Blade 3. IL 11.0.
14) Eternal Blade 4. IL 12.0.
15) Eternal Blade 5. IL 13.0. Feat: Travel Devotion/Precise Shot. Stance: Aura of Chaos.
16) Eternal Blade 6. IL14.0.
17) Eternal Blade 7. IL 15.0.
18) Eternal Blade 8. IL 16.0. Martial Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
19) Eternal Blade 9. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still.
20) Eternal Blade 10. IL 18.0. Island in Time.

[Snowbluff]

I think the current thoery is it was just an oversight, and the designers/editors failed to notice that the Crusader was still proficient with ranged weapons. Either that or the Crusader was seen as filling more of a "support role", since most of their maneuvers tend to focus on buffing allies, and maybe ranged weapons were perceived as more suited to support/"less front-liney".

I thought I had posted some stuff on Ranged Crusaders before, but apparently not... here's an older post about Ranged Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11918094&postcount=16), and most of that I reworked into a post for the Warblade handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10296220&postcount=420).

From my notes on Crusaders...

Sample maneuver progression:

Crusader 1: Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack [stance]
Crusader 2: Bolstering Voice [stance]
Crusader 3: Shield Block
Crusader 4: Mountain Hammer (replacing Stone Bones)
Crusader 5: White Raven Tactics
Crusader 6: Lion's Roar (replacing Douse the Flames)
Crusader 7: Covering Strike
Crusader 8: Revitalizing Strike (replacing Vanguard Strike), Giant's Stance [stance]
Crusader 9: Flanking Maneuver, Martial Stance: Press the Advantage [stance]
Crusader 10: Elder Mountain Hammer (replacing Charging Minotaur)
Crusader 11: Order Forged From Chaos
Crusader 12: Rallying Strike (replacing Crusader's Strike)
Crusader 13: Shield Counter
Crusader 14: Clarion Call (replacing Covering Strike), Aura of Chaos [stance]
Crusader 15: White Raven Hammer, Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude [stance]
Crusader 16: Ancient Mountain Hammer (replacing Mountain Hammer)
Crusader 17: Strike of Righteous Vitality
Crusader 18: War Master's Charge (replacing Flanking Maneuver), Martial Stance: Swarm Tactics
Crusader 19: Mountain Tombstone Strike
Crusader 20: Earthstrike Quake (replacing Shield Counter)


Eternal Crusbow

1) Crusader 1. IL 1.0. Feat: PB Shot.
2) Crusader 2. IL 2.0.
3) Crusader 3. IL 3.0. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Crusader 4. IL 4.0.
5) Crusader 5. IL 5.0.
6) Crusader 6. IL 6.0. Feat: Manyshot.
7) Crusader 7. IL 7.0.
8) Crusader 8. IL 8.0.
9) Crusader 9. IL 9.0. Feat: Greater Manyshot.
10) Crusader 10. IL 10.0.
11) Eternal Blade 1. IL 11.0.
12) Eternal Blade 2. IL 12.0. Feat: Travel Devotion.
13) Eternal Blade 3. IL 13.0.
14) Eternal Blade 4. IL 14.0.
15) Eternal Blade 5. IL 15.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot. Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
16) Eternal Blade 6. IL16.0.
17) Eternal Blade 7. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still.
18) Eternal Blade 8. IL 18.0. Martial Stance: Immortal Fortitude.
19) Eternal Blade 9. IL 19.0.
20) Eternal Blade 10. IL 20.0. Island in Time.


Palawindicator build

1) Paladin 1. IL 0.5. Feat: PB Shot, Human: Travel Devotion.
2) Paladin 2. IL 1.0.
3) Paladin 3. IL 1.5. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Paladin 4. IL 2.0.
5) Crusader 1. IL 3.0.
6) RKV1. IL 4.0. Feat: Manyshot.
7) RKV2. IL 5.0.
8) RKV3. IL 6.0.
9) RKV4. IL 7.0. Feat: Greater Manyshot.
10) RKV5. IL 8.0.
11) RKV6. IL 9.0. Feat: Battle Blessing, Stance: Press the Advantage.
12) RKV7. IL 10.0.
13) Crusader 2. IL 11.0. Stance: Aura of Chaos.
14) RKV8. IL 12.0.
15) RKV9. IL 13.0. Feat: Extra Turning.
16) RKV10. IL14.0.
17) Crusader 3. IL 15.0.
18) Crusader 4. IL 16.0. Feat: Extra Turning.
19) Crusader 5. IL 17.0.
20) Crusader 6. IL 18.0. Stance: Immortal Fortitude.


Eternal Windicator

1) Paladin 1. IL 0.5. Feat: PB Shot.
2) Paladin 2. IL 1.0.
3) Paladin 3. IL 1.5. Feat: Rapid Shot.
4) Paladin 4. IL 2.0.
5) Crusader 1. IL 3.0.
6) RKV1. IL 4.0. Feat: Manyshot.
7) RKV2. IL 5.0. Divine Recovery.
8) RKV3. IL 6.0.
9) RKV4. IL 7.0. Feat: Weapon Focus.
10) RKV5. IL 8.0.
11) Eternal Blade 1. IL 9.0.
12) Eternal Blade 2. IL 10.0. Feat: Imp. Rapid Shot.
13) Eternal Blade 3. IL 11.0.
14) Eternal Blade 4. IL 12.0.
15) Eternal Blade 5. IL 13.0. Feat: Gr. Manyshot. Stance: Aura of Chaos.
16) Eternal Blade 6. IL14.0.
17) Eternal Blade 7. IL 15.0.
18) Eternal Blade 8. IL 16.0. Martial Stance: Stance of Alacrity.
19) Eternal Blade 9. IL 17.0. Time Stands Still.
20) Eternal Blade 10. IL 18.0. Island in Time.



Question. Why would anyone choose Paladin over Cleric for these builds? I'd say that it would be for feats, but I think weapon focus could be scooted around.

[Urpriest]

Question. Why would anyone choose Paladin over Cleric for these builds? I'd say that it would be for feats, but I think weapon focus could be scooted around.

In the case of the last build, it's probably because you can't finish Eternal Blade otherwise.

[Snowbluff]

In the case of the last build, it's probably because you can't finish Eternal Blade otherwise.

Oh right... It's worth having not-even 1st level spells as opposed to 3rd level spells... :l

EDIT: Changed to accommodate the criteria of the last build. I don't like that one very much. Why are we taking paladin at all again?

[Urpriest]

Oh right... It's worth having not-even 1st level spells as opposed to 3rd level spells... :l

EDIT: Changed to accommodate the criteria of the last build. I don't like that one very much. Why are we taking paladin at all again?

Turn attempts for RKV. Extra swifts with things like Island in Time means a potentially quite impressive nova round.

[deuxhero]

Why would you NOT take BB on a RKV Paladin? It provides some awesome sauce uses for swift actions RKV gives you.

[Kenneth]

It's no secret: Tome of Battle is a melee book. The melee-specific proficiencies, maneuvers only work for melee weapons, blah blah archery in 3.5 is terrible and unsupported, moving on.

But what strikes me as odd is, of the three powerful warriors that are presented in the Book of Nine Swords, the crusader is the one who gets straight bow proficiency. The crusader. Not the limber swordsage or the intelligent warblade, no. The guy who gets tower shield proficiency (by RAW), and heavy armor proficiency, along with Smiting and the classic tanking abilities Furious Counterstrike and Steely Resolve, along with the Devoted Spirit discipline, which heals and uses stances to keep enemy attention on you.

What do all of you have to say about this? Why would WotC give the paladin fix the ability to fire longbows, but not the monk/rogue fix or the fighter fix?

The same reason why WoTc thought that heavy armor proficisnecy and a full base attack was worth as much as 9th levels spell. I just get the feling that all those 3rd ed designers were liek ' hey you know what would be cool?" and fo coruse if you are a guy and you are hanging with you buds.. well you know that something dumb is about tohappen that more than likely get somebody hurt...


In short.. WoTC guys really didn't have a grasp on what they were doing 95% of the time.

[Greenish]

WoTC guys really didn't have a grasp on what they were doing 95% of the time.That would hold more water if we weren't actually talking about ToB.

[Incanur]

That would hold more water if we weren't actually talking about ToB.

Meh, that book has at least its fair share of both fluffy and crunchy trouble. Minor errors, like the swordsages x6 skill points, abound. More seriously, things like White Raven Tactics make my head hurt and enable ridiculous action loops by the RAW. :smallsigh:

[Snowbluff]

Turn attempts for RKV. Extra swifts with things like Island in Time means a potentially quite impressive nova round.

Funny. That's exactly what I would say about taking levels in cleric. In other news, I'll be damned. Pallies get Turn Undead at level 4. I Really wish there was a better way to do this.

[Darrin]

Question. Why would anyone choose Paladin over Cleric for these builds?

Good question. At the time, I was focusing on full BAB builds for some reason. For the first and third builds, you need full BAB to get the capstone, and I thought Island in Time + Time Stands Still was worth it.

For the second build, a Cleric dip (particularly Elf + Sehanine Moonbow for Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and Elf domain) would probably be better than Paladin 4, particularly in the feat department. However, Cleric 20 makes a pretty strong archer already, so they don't really need the help. Paladin does need some help, and I think adding Crusader and RKV makes it a much stronger build. Yeah, a Cleric base might be better, but it wouldn't have quite the same flavor.


In other news, I'll be damned. Pallies get Turn Undead at level 4. I Really wish there was a better way to do this.

Well, if you can get 8 ranks into Knowledge (the Planes), try Planar Touchstone -> Sun Domain from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[Kenneth]

That would hold more water if we weren't actually talking about ToB.

actually It does hold water as ToB is part of the 5% where WoTC kinda knew what they were doing.

[Greenish]

actually It does hold water as ToB is part of the 5% where WoTC kinda knew what they were doing.I meant that the idea that crusaders are proficient with bows because the designers had no idea what they were doing doesn't hold water since the designers of ToB did know what they were doing.

[Snowbluff]

For the second build, a Cleric dip (particularly Elf + Sehanine Moonbow for Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, and Elf domain) would probably be better than Paladin 4, particularly in the feat department. However, Cleric 20 makes a pretty strong archer already, so they don't really need the help. Paladin does need some help, and I think adding Crusader and RKV makes it a much stronger build. Yeah, a Cleric base might be better, but it wouldn't have quite the same flavor.



Well, if you can get 8 ranks into Knowledge (the Planes), try Planar Touchstone -> Sun Domain from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

... If you knew about...

Okay, nevermind. I tend to avoid the Paladin for several reasons. While it would meet the requirements, it is a bad class, and eats 4 levels while being bad. As for for flavor, no class (except maybe monk) has such debilitating flavor as the Paladin. From my experience, at least one person at the table is going to have a problem with how he is playing. Ideally, you'd go Fighter (or anything else), but that would smoosh into your RKV levels. :smallfrown:

[NNescio]

I meant that the idea that crusaders are proficient with bows because the designers had no idea what they were doing doesn't hold water since the designers of ToB did know what they were doing.

*cough* maneuver progression *cough*