(Pathfinder) Making the Magus more skilled or the Bard more fighty

[Coidzor]

Which is the better proposition in a Pathfinder only game, especially one that's starting from first level and is primarily urban with some urban dungeon delving? Specifically Council of Thieves.

Since Inspire Courage cannot be boosted and only lasts for as long as one is performing, the Pathfinder Bard seems like it has an uphill slog to be a competent secondary melee character (feat tax to have performance last after one has played, having a spells known tax to have more than one up at a time, having a pitifully small number of rounds per day of performance vs. rounds of combat until mid-levels) and can only really achieve that by mid-levels, when it gets its most gish-friendly spells, before getting outclassed by the monstrous threats and becoming as dependent upon a fullcaster's battlefield control as a 3.5 Fighter.

On the other hand, the Magus seems like it suffers from the same issue as the Fighter, not having any incentive or synergy to leave the niche of "I hit things and that's it" aside from a spell here or there on his spell list and the ability to grab a spell or two off of the wizard list, which more obviates the whole skillful angle rather than complementing it.

I had considered maybe an Urban Ranger, but it seems almost like it's made out of more meh than Pathfinder's bard.

[Curious]

On the other hand, the Magus seems like it suffers from the same issue as the Fighter, not having any incentive or synergy to leave the niche of "I hit things and that's it" aside from a spell here or there on his spell list and the ability to grab a spell or two off of the wizard list, which more obviates the whole skillful angle rather than complementing it.


Eh? You hit things all right, but you also cast spells while hitting things, so there really isn't any reason you would want to stop hitting things. In order to make sure you keep on getting off those spell combat rounds, I would suggest you grab the Accelerate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/accelerate) word power through the experimental spellcaster feat. Really, that's all you need, besides a scimitar and Dervish Dance.

EDIT: Oh yes, a feat you absolutely require if you are a Bard; Lingering Performance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/lingering-performance), which effectively triples your rounds of performance per day.

[deuxhero]

Does your campaign have guns? RAW you can use spell combat with them, being an (improvised) melee weapon, but the ability doesn't require a melee attack.

Spellstrike does require a melee attack though, making it incompatible. There is an ACF that lets you sub it out, but the ability to create a not!Mindblade dagger isn't that useful.

[CTrees]

Dagger Pistol, Axe Musket, and Warhammer Musket are all both firearms and melee weapons. If there's not a bayonet option as well, there should be. Not sure if this would actually help anything, but I can at least think of some interesting RP options involving the dual-use weapons.

[deuxhero]

It has to be one handed though, only one of them works, and you have to make a melee ATTACK to use spellstrike, which is impractical.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Core Pathfinder Bard is a mess compared to splatted out 3.5 Bard, or even Core 3.5 Bard in some ways, as it doesn't even get some features that Core 3.5 Bard gets out of the box (like the ability for bardic performance to last several rounds after you quit performing).

Magus is actually a solid class, if you can swing the stats for it (it needs at least 16 INT and 16 STR, with a good CON score to make up for its D6 HD). Having a slightly weaker STR score than your average melee fighter is acceptable, though, because of the Arcane Pool.

A Human Magus will frequently get 6 or more skill points per level without use of your bonus point (meaning you can get an extra hit point instead), so they're not outright incompetent at skills, especially since the Pathfinder system works in their favor. If you want to make the Magus more skilled, I think the focus should be on its class skills and not on its skills per level.

[Volos]

Does your campaign have guns? RAW you can use spell combat with them, being an (improvised) melee weapon, but the ability doesn't require a melee attack.

Spellstrike does require a melee attack though, making it incompatible. There is an ACF that lets you sub it out, but the ability to create a not!Mindblade dagger isn't that useful.

Magus (Myrmidarch) (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/magus.html#Myrmidarch). That is all.

[MukkTB]

As a Magus, your high int will insure some skillpoints. Unfortunately your class skills are kind of crappy and you need to put skillpoints into a couple spellcasting skills. The magus doesn't have any real incentive to diversify beyond 'cast spells and hit things' so those extra skills will probably be put to use helping you hit things more.

As a secondary melee character your bard isn't going to find a great deal of support. In a 3 round average combat you will have spent a third of your time winding up inspire courage. However in every noncombat situation the bard totally blows away the magus.

If you don't want to be buffing the group, and if you really want high skill points, magic, medium BAB, combat related abilities, and out of combat abilities I recommend looking at the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor really is a jack of all trades. Its got good skills with abilities that supplement them decently. Its got ok combat melee or ranged. It can tank fairly well. It can heal. It can spit out useful spells.

But if the choice is just Magus/Bard then you really just have to decide if you want to be the groups backup melee or if you want to be a support character that buffs the group.

[Novawurmson]

(it needs...a good CON score to make up for its D6 HD).

Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) has a d8 hit dice.

[FMArthur]

The magus is really versatile and solid already. It has tons of good utility in its spells; it's not pure offense like a Duskblade or something. The only thing it notably lacks for urbanity are interaction spells.

It may not have continuously applicable social powers, but it still gets things like illusions and invisibilities, which are absolutely grand for scheming of all sorts, social or otherwise. I've never met a player who didn't love to concoct ridiculous schemes for mundane tasks. And if you do pick socially-oriented spells off of the wizard list, you really don't need many to be super tricky with them. Extraordinary interpersonal skills can be achieved just by having Charm Person alone.

Even in a social campaign it's good to have people with other, complementary talents playing around each other that amount to more than just 4 friends with high Diplomacy checks. The magus fits in just fine, and can handle itself well in a fight - in perfectly versatile fashion - when everything goes completely wrong.

[deuxhero]

Magus (Myrmidarch) (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/magus.html#Myrmidarch). That is all.

Too bad it comes at the cost of noticible spell casting loss.

[El Dorado]

You could always go fighter-wizard. Not as streamlined as a magus but you end up with a broader selection of class skills.

[Infernalbargain]

I second the inquisitor choice. Take the heresy inquisition and the heretic archetype for bluff of +yes.

[Coidzor]

Inquisitors don't really seem to fit into the setting aside from LE Asmodean types though, that's my main issue with them. I suppose I could find a workaround for that though.

[MukkTB]

My thoughts on the inquisitor's fluff come down to this. The mechanical abilities do inform the fluff so you have to work around some of them. But the only game breaker is that divine energy has to come from somewhere. You can refluff the judgement, stern gaze, and bane abilities. Maybe he has a stern gaze because he's a leader? Perhaps instead of judging someone he's giving himself magic adrenaline to help him fight. He could be using his magic to leverage monsters weaknesses with bane. Why not?

But this is the best story I can come up for the worship section. You 'worship' positive or negative energy in that you revere, understand, and respect it. You manipulate that energy to get spells spontaneously. Positive or negative energy is clearly divine. But on a base level this isn't much different than an arcane caster powered by fire or ice magic. You don't have severe alignment restrictions because power is somewhat neutral. Its hard to do acts of good with negative energy and difficult to do evil with positive energy. Its not impossible though. You can heal a tyrant with positive energy or kill him with negative thus reversing their alignment roles.

You're not exactly like a sorcerer because you have to have some technical knowledge about the kind off energy you're using in the same way a wizard needs technical knowledge. That's a good thing.


So you refluff the entire chassis. Think of yourself as a wizard of positive/negative energy instead of arcane energy. With wide training you have enough martial ability to be competent and enough skill points to be capable. But you're a weaker caster for it. Like so many other gishes you infuse yourself with magic buffs to help in combat. Your attunement with life's energy allows you some unnerving abilities when interacting with others.


That concept is basic enough it shouldn't have a harder time fitting into a setting than a normal wizard.

[Crasical]

....Wait, what's wrong with the Bard's songs lasting only as long as he's performing? Once you spend the round to start up the song you can maintain it as a free action and it can't be interrupted by anything short of your death. It's the limited rounds per day that would be the problem, not that they last as long as he performs.

[Coidzor]

....Wait, what's wrong with the Bard's songs lasting only as long as he's performing? Once you spend the round to start up the song you can maintain it as a free action and it can't be interrupted by anything short of your death. It's the limited rounds per day that would be the problem, not that they last as long as he performs.

Yeah, those two things are one and the same to me in terms of the amount of BS and how much I want to meet Jason Buhlman for all the wrong reasons.

[Paul H]

Hi

Yes, the Magus is a good hitter. Got one in the PFS campaign.

Fighting with Wand of Truestrike in one hand, Bastard Sword in other. Average stats, so no uber max character, but still something like +24 to hit/ignore concealment miss chance. At Level 4!

But if you really want a Gish, look at Synthesists.

My non-optimised PFS Synthesist at 5th lvl will have:
+10 Nat AC, +2 Shield AC Bonus, extra +2 Saves, Flying (Perfect, no wings), Resist Fire & Acid 10, +4 BAB, Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14. 73HP (Includes 30 Temp HP), spells. Uses Gt Sword.
Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Arcane Strike, Pwr Attack

Magi are skilled, with nice offensive spells, and good spell & wpn 'tricks'.
Synthesists are brute force, but some very nice buffs as well.

Thanks
Paul H

[SpaceBadger]

But if you really want a Gish, look at Synthesists.

Where is Synthesist from? I don't see that class in PF SRD.

Thanks.

[Infernalbargain]

Where is Synthesist from? I don't see that class in PF SRD.

Thanks.

Summoner archetype

[Curious]

Where is Synthesist from? I don't see that class in PF SRD.

Thanks.

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend the Synthesist for a gish. They make good beatsticks, sure, but they have trouble getting out spellcasting in combat when compared to a magus. There are also flavor concerns, assuming your dm doesn't allow heavy re-fluffing, since to be able to fight effectively you have to coat yourself in the skin of an eldritch monstrosity.

[SpaceBadger]

Summoner archetype

Ah, I see now. Thanks.

[Crasical]

There are also flavor concerns, assuming your dm doesn't allow heavy re-fluffing, since to be able to fight effectively you have to coat yourself in the skin of an eldritch monstrosity.

That said, Eidolons are really customizable, so you can refluff the precise nature of your synthesist quite a bit.

[Curious]

That said, Eidolons are really customizable, so you can refluff the precise nature of your synthesist quite a bit.

Mm, true. Generally I prefer the Magus to the Synthesist because of it's greater mastery of action economy, but Synthesist certainly does have some advantages.