PDA

View Full Version : Gobbotopia vs Neo Azure City



pendejochy
2011-12-31, 01:25 AM
Assuming the Rift doesn't consume the whole city, which faction do you want ruling at the end of the story? I want the Gobs to hold the city, because I think it's more interesting. I don't want it to fall, because I want to see how to continues to interact with its neighbors and develops as a society.

t209
2011-12-31, 01:43 AM
Assuming the Rift doesn't consume the whole city, which faction do you want ruling at the end of the story? I want the Gobs to hold the city, because I think it's more interesting. I don't want it to fall, because I want to see how to continues to interact with its neighbors and develops as a society.

Azurite regaining their homeland could also be interesting though.
- Hinjo liberated Azure City with the help of elves (and probably natives from Gobbotopia Regions).
- Azure City army is weak; as a result, Hinjo began to absorb the tribes and settlements in Blue River (mongolians and primitive tribes).
- A khan joined azure city army and help fight the goblins to gain back their lands
- Azure city and tribal allies drive out hobgoblins to redmountain hills.
- Hinjo find problems in governing Blue River natives who have different cultures than Azurites.
- Natives, especially the khan, became angry to discover that they are now controlled by corrupt aristocracy instead of self autonomy.
- Khan final straw was intervention by elves in attacking innocent goblins, which he consider it as breach of his tribe's code of war.
- Khan led a rebellion and started a civil war.
It would have gray morality, and ethics of imperialism on paladin king.

Need_A_Life
2011-12-31, 01:58 AM
I'm split between letting wanting Gobbotopia to survive and an Azure City/Gobbotopia hybrid, wherein humans, elves, goblins etc. live together, regardless of racial differences.

The latter would help address the objections of the Dark One, as well, because while the Gods would remain equally despicable, their creations would now allow Goblins to live under the same terms and rights that the rest of the world already have.

I honestly expect that part of the plot to end with a "not the colour of his skin"-vibe, but maybe that's just me.

The Pilgrim
2011-12-31, 08:41 AM
Gobbos to hold it. I'm not fond on that conflict stealing any more screen time.

Draconi Redfir
2011-12-31, 09:01 AM
natrually i'd preffer it if the Gobbos continue to hold it and make it their own. The Azurites have that abandoned elf island now, why even bother taking the old city back? Sute "its their home" and whatnot, but that's nothing a few new generaitions can't fix.

dancrilis
2011-12-31, 10:01 AM
In a local sense I would want the goblins to it, possible forming a empire of evil, or possible softening to the requests of cliffport as time goes by, ultimately Azure City had is coming.

In a more cosmic sense I kind of want Xykon to win, either gaining control of the snarl, or ascending to greater godhood, and for such considerations to become pointless.

t209
2011-12-31, 10:39 AM
Azurite regaining their homeland could also be interesting though.
- Hinjo liberated Azure City with the help of elves (and probably natives from Gobbotopia Regions).
- Azure City army is weak; as a result, Hinjo began to absorb the tribes and settlements in Blue River (mongolians and primitive tribes).
- A khan joined azure city army and help fight the goblins to gain back their lands
- Azure city and tribal allies drive out hobgoblins to redmountain hills.
- Hinjo find problems in governing Blue River natives who have different cultures than Azurites.
- Natives, especially the khan, became angry to discover that they are now controlled by corrupt aristocracy instead of self autonomy.
- Khan final straw was intervention by elves in attacking innocent goblins, which he consider it as breach of his tribe's code of war.
- Khan led a rebellion and started a civil war.
It would have gray morality, and ethics of imperialism on paladin king.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html
There are other territories for Hinjo to start War on Gobbotopia and show the morality problems on Paladin Rulers like how to deal with the tribal allies or stamping out local culture to win the war.

Dr.Epic
2011-12-31, 10:40 AM
I'm not really sure who's left from Azure City. Seems just like Hinjo and a few others. Really, I don't think the handful of them should be able to reclaim given the large Goblin pop. that's moved in. Hopefully the human slaves will be liberated though.

t209
2011-12-31, 10:48 AM
I'm not really sure who's left from Azure City. Seems just like Hinjo and a few others. Really, I don't think the handful of them should be able to reclaim given the large Goblin pop. that's moved in. Hopefully the human slaves will be liberated though.

Hinjo have Elves allies other than commandoes. Elves hated goblins and probably send in an army when the time is right. Maybe Tarquin could invade gobbotopia (and conquer Azure City with his genre savviness).

Draconi Redfir
2011-12-31, 10:52 AM
I'm not really sure who's left from Azure City. Seems just like Hinjo and a few others. Really, I don't think the handful of them should be able to reclaim given the large Goblin pop. that's moved in. Hopefully the human slaves will be liberated though.

Have you really forgotten about the entire azurite fleet?:smalltongue:

Though yes i do hope the slaves are released eventually, perhaps after goblinoids are fully settled in and can do the labour themselves, then maybe they can trade the slaves to the azurites in exchange for a ceasefire between new azure city and Gobbotopia.


And before you say it "they won't do that they are evil" is not a valid argument. Yes they are evil, so yes they enjoy having slaves, but they are also lawful, so it's possible they will agree to surrender the slaves if it means securing their nation in the eyes of the azure refugees.

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-31, 10:58 AM
The point of the Elves sending commandoes is that commandoes don't use a whole lot of resources. Everything we know about the Elves suggests that mobilizing for a full-scale war is the last thing they want to do. Tarquin, for instance, knows that it would take a big, catastrophic event to get them to intervene in the politics of the Western Continent, a theatre with immediate implications for their own security. It took them months to respond to a big, catastrophic event - the fall of Azure City - that took place an ocean away, despite being allied to the Azurites. Furthermore, the Elves might actually be a paper tiger: consider that they abandoned Azure Island due to "budget cuts" and have not since reoccupied it. If you want another big, epic battle involving large armies, the Elves are not the place to look.

EDIT: Redcloak laughed off the notion that Gobbotopia would give up slavery to please a powerful mercantile state whose recognition could give Gobbotopia much-needed legitimacy and whose airship fleet could pose a military threat. Why, exactly, would Gobbotopia care what a conquered people that can't pose a military threat and has nothing they want anymore thinks of them?

Dr.Epic
2011-12-31, 11:23 AM
Have you really forgotten about the entire azurite fleet?:smalltongue:

No, I haven't. And it's still not that many.

skaddix
2011-12-31, 11:34 AM
i think its fine the biggest problem is they lost most of their paladins but the nobles took all their personal troops away not to mean Azure City had notable forces that were to far away to get back in time for the Goblin Horde.

I believe Shojo stated that Azure City alone has a population of 500K. And the army at the battle of Azure City was about 9000 even assuming and counting losses they should have a lot not to mention that they off loaded a good deal of their refugees in the countries of their allies.

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-31, 01:35 PM
Okay, let's do some calculations. Shojo gives the half-million figure here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html). It is not clear whether the half-million he talks about is the population of Azure City the settlement or Azure City the polity, including Robinsegg, smaller settlements, farms, military posts, etc. Let's assume from the context he's talking about the city. Of that half-million, the hobgoblins are said to have killed ten thousand in the course of the invasion. Azure City had arrayed 9000 soldiers against them, so at minimum we are talking about 1000 civilian casualties in the course of the battle, plus the loss of all deployed military forces. Assuming more than a few scattered surviving soldiers involves presuming more civilian casualties, but that's not terribly relevant to the question at hand.

Now, let's take a look at the fleet. Captain Axe estimates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0482.html[/url) that Hinjo's junk held between 400 and 500 people when it launched. The Azurite Fleet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) contained 69 ships including Hinjo's, possibly more off-panel. Some of the ships were larger, some smaller, and the degree to which they were packed probably varied widely based on the status and charity of the owner and the time of launch. But let's make things simple. Assuming each of those 69 ships held between four and five hundred people, we get an refugee population of between 27,300 and 34,500. Say about 30,000 Azurites, including the nobles, their retinues, scattered soldiers like Kazumi and Daigo, and Hinjo and Lien, managed to evacuate.

Immediately this poses a problem wrt Shojo's population estimate. Namely, what the heck happened to those 460,000 Azurite citizens who couldn't flee? If we continue with the assumption that Shojo was talking about the city's population only, then what happened to all of them? The human population of the city at the time of Redcloak's proclamation of Gobbotopia has gone quite out of sight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html), and the prison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html) doesn't seem quite large enough to hold over four hundred thousand people even if conditions were comparable to the Black Hole of Calcutta. There were twenty thousand hobgoblins in Azure City at the conclusion of the battle, at at the time of Redcloak's proclamation hobgoblins made up 93% of the citizenry. Let's double the original thirty thousand hobgoblins to take into account women (we've seen hobgoblin women, and they look quite different to the typical horde soldiers, plus we know from Redcloak's assumption of Supreme Leadership that hobgoblins place a high value on manhood and manliness), then double it again to take into account those too young and old to march. Subtracting 10,000 leaves us with 110,000 hobgoblins, and a total Gobbotopia citizenry of about 120,000. Of those, remember, a little over twenty thousand are fit to fight. Why does this matter? Because the 460,000 Azurites left by the fleet still dwarf this population, and especially its combat-ready subset. Even taking into account the cowedness of the conquered people and their lack of combat training, an occupation force five percent the size of the occupied population is bound to have more problems than we've seen Gobbotopia having. The other option is that shortly after the battle the hobgoblins perpetrated a massive genocide, but you'd think that would be mentioned at some point.

At this point we have to scrap Shojo's population estimate as applyed to the city, and apply it to the whole polity. This lines up much better with the portrayed conditions of the Azurites left in Azure City: there are few of them, they can be confined underground or in prisons, and killing a few with class levels is notable in and of itself instead of being part of a massive extermination. This means the number of people evacuated could line up quite nicely with the number of survivors. It also means the meaningful fifth column consists mostly of the Resistance and the Raptor Teams. The Resistance is about thirty members strong, and if I recall correctly there are at least two five-Elf Raptor Teams.

We are shown three nobles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) leaving the war council. Let's make things easy and assume they each did what Kubota says he did: took their personal guards and households aboard one personal ship each. Our previous estimates of ship capacities give between four hundred to five hundred people per each ship. Of these, let's say about two hundred per ship were the nobles' personal guards. That's six hundred soldiers lost from the battle, but six hundred soldiers spared for the reconquest, albeit of questionable loyalty. Add to that the soldiers that fled from the charge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) (23 remained to hold the breach, which means at most 76 could have fled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html)) plus stragglers like Kazumi and Daigo and you get another hundred or so soldiers.

I really have no idea how many more soldiers that core of seven hundred could train in the amount of time the fleet spent at sea, or how many a core of one hundred could train (since they're the only reliable ones). Kubota's personal guard has almost certainly been deemed unreliable by this point and won't engage in any future military action, so count two hundred soldiers out. Bottom line, the Azurites probably have less than two thousand trained soldiers to work with, including their fifth column, and from what we've seen of the hobgoblins in this most recent strip they no longer have an edge in low-to-mid-level combatants with PC classes. Even if Team Evil leaves Gobbotopia, the Azurites as they stand remain totally outclassed.

thereaper
2011-12-31, 03:39 PM
Regardless of what happened to Azure City, I would want to see a little goblin village out in the middle of nowhere. A group of Paladins sees the village, comes in for a closer look, and spies an elderly goblin and his family calmly tending some fields. They freeze and drop what they're doing the moment they spot the Paladins, certain that they are about to meet their end.

The Paladins look around at the place, shrug, and continue on their way. The goblin family exchanges shocked glances and then returns to their harvest.

Draconi Redfir
2011-12-31, 03:48 PM
I'm pretty sure in hobgoblin society every grown male is trained as a warrior of some kind. Could be wrong though.

Gift Jeraff
2011-12-31, 04:16 PM
The Resistance is about thirty members strong, and if I recall correctly there are at least two five-Elf Raptor Teams.Before it merged with the other 2 resistance groups, Haley's Resistance had 200 people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html). Team Peregrine consists of 4 elves, and we only saw 2 members of Team Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html).

FWIW, Redcloak says they mobilized 90% of the population in bonus strip #320a. Not sure if that's just an exaggerated way of saying "most of the population."

zimmerwald1915
2011-12-31, 04:48 PM
Before it merged with the other 2 resistance groups, Haley's Resistance had 200 people (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html). Team Peregrine consists of 4 elves, and we only saw 2 members of Team Harrier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0705.html).
Well, that'll teach me to rely on memory. Still, most of Haley's Resistance weren't combat-capable, and there's no reason to believe that the other groups were in any better shape.


FWIW, Redcloak says they mobilized 90% of the population in bonus strip #320a. Not sure if that's just an exaggerated way of saying "most of the population."
If the hobgoblins that marched on Azure City were 90% of the population, then where were all the women? If they were conscripted they radically changed their appearence with nobody commenting on it, which is odd in a society which places an emphasis on manhood as heavy as those hobgoblins'. Alternatively, how in the heck do you support a city of thirty thousand people with only three thousand women? I don't own the book, so there might be an explanation I'm missing, but that figure looks very suspect.

DrBurr
2011-12-31, 07:06 PM
Well, that'll teach me to rely on memory. Still, most of Haley's Resistance weren't combat-capable, and there's no reason to believe that the other groups were in any better shape.


If the hobgoblins that marched on Azure City were 90% of the population, then where were all the women? If they were conscripted they radically changed their appearence with nobody commenting on it, which is odd in a society which places an emphasis on manhood as heavy as those hobgoblins'. Alternatively, how in the heck do you support a city of thirty thousand people with only three thousand women? I don't own the book, so there might be an explanation I'm missing, but that figure looks very suspect.

Most of the Women and Children are back at the mountain forts, only the occupation force was really in the city at its founding

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html

SowZ
2011-12-31, 07:13 PM
I don't see the humans having any more of a legitimate claim over the city/land then the goblins do. I think it is good they have a legitimate city and want it to expand. It will force other races to eventually take them seriously.

Azurites taking it back will mean more racism and genocidal mania against the goblins. I think it would be a very bad thing for Gobbotopia to fall.

t209
2011-12-31, 09:15 PM
I don't see the humans having any more of a legitimate claim over the city/land then the goblins do. I think it is good they have a legitimate city and want it to expand. It will force other races to eventually take them seriously.

Azurites taking it back will mean more racism and genocidal mania against the goblins. I think it would be a very bad thing for Gobbotopia to fall.
And it would give a storyline and idea of Paladins (lawful good) doing morally ambiguous things (genocide, cultural oppression). How about Hinjo quashing any tribal culture that sympathize (as in including sparing innocent goblins) with Goblins?

Murray
2011-12-31, 09:20 PM
...Immediately this poses a problem wrt Shojo's population estimate. Namely, what the heck happened to those 460,000 Azurite citizens who couldn't flee?

A major wildcard in the fate of the Azure City population is just how many refugees escaped after the battle ended. The city could very well have been porous for days, maybe even weeks afterwards, and given the likelihood that The Hobbos were likely focused on securing the interior of the city and stamping out resistance, many could have escaped to the countryside. And before the borders were completely locked-down, a resistance leader like Haley could have been very focused on smuggling out refugees who could not have been much help in retaking the city. All speculation, but still major elements in the shift in population.

And there's still the question of just how many people died from the gate explosion and falling masonry.

As t209 suggests, it's unlikely that Hinjo could retake the city without plunging the area into instability. The Azurite nobles first have to be convinced to send troops, then have to have a reason not to turn Azure City into a bloody civil war as they fight Hinjo and each other for rulership. The only reason the resistance groups banded together was because of theological fanaticism to a dead ruler that none of the nobles had respect for, which could lead to yet another faction warring against Hinjo.

Worse still, Gobbotopia has a lot in common with the Tarquinian empires of the western continent, even without having a common enemy. And judging by the map on panel two of Strip 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), Elves could be a nuisance for both sides.

If Gobbotopia's inherent intent to battle intolerance against goblin races eventually gets broadened to battle intolerance in general, than it could be a genuine force of progress on the southern continent, even if it's not for a few decades.

t209
2011-12-31, 10:43 PM
A major wildcard in the fate of the Azure City population is just how many refugees escaped after the battle ended. The city could very well have been porous for days, maybe even weeks afterwards, and given the likelihood that The Hobbos were likely focused on securing the interior of the city and stamping out resistance, many could have escaped to the countryside. And before the borders were completely locked-down, a resistance leader like Haley could have been very focused on smuggling out refugees who could not have been much help in retaking the city. All speculation, but still major elements in the shift in population.

And there's still the question of just how many people died from the gate explosion and falling masonry.

As t209 suggests, it's unlikely that Hinjo could retake the city without plunging the area into instability. The Azurite nobles first have to be convinced to send troops, then have to have a reason not to turn Azure City into a bloody civil war as they fight Hinjo and each other for rulership. The only reason the resistance groups banded together was because of theological fanaticism to a dead ruler that none of the nobles had respect for, which could lead to yet another faction warring against Hinjo.

Worse still, Gobbotopia has a lot in common with the Tarquinian empires of the western continent, even without having a common enemy. And judging by the map on panel two of Strip 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), Elves could be a nuisance for both sides.

If Gobbotopia's inherent intent to battle intolerance against goblin races eventually gets broadened to battle intolerance in general, than it could be a genuine force of progress on the southern continent, even if it's not for a few decades.
Don't forget the human natives of Blue River (if the comic shows them) who will call for independence from Nobles (Like Stormcloaks in Skyrim).

SowZ
2011-12-31, 11:38 PM
Have you really forgotten about the entire azurite fleet?:smalltongue:

Though yes i do hope the slaves are released eventually, perhaps after goblinoids are fully settled in and can do the labour themselves, then maybe they can trade the slaves to the azurites in exchange for a ceasefire between new azure city and Gobbotopia.


And before you say it "they won't do that they are evil" is not a valid argument. Yes they are evil, so yes they enjoy having slaves, but they are also lawful, so it's possible they will agree to surrender the slaves if it means securing their nation in the eyes of the azure refugees.

I see no indication that the kingdom is evil. They have slaves, but if such things make the kingdom evil then Azre city was as well. I think it is more complicated than that. Xykon is not really its leader even if the Goblins seem to owe him a debt and are in no position to challenge him and even Redcloak, who I symapthize greatly with, is no longer in charge.

littlekKID
2012-01-01, 12:28 AM
I see no indication that the kingdom is evil. They have slaves, but if such things make the kingdom evil then Azre city was as well..

Azure city never used slaves

derfenrirwolv
2012-01-01, 12:30 AM
First response by the gobbos: slaughter the slaves.

Not. Good.

SowZ
2012-01-01, 05:54 PM
Azure city never used slaves

No, they are guilty of genocide though. Which I would say is worse.

thereaper
2012-01-01, 11:09 PM
I'm pretty sure in hobgoblin society every grown male is trained as a warrior of some kind. Could be wrong though.

Exactly.

The scene I described would serve to illustrate a huge change both in the way goblinoids live, and how other races view them. It would also serve to nicely tie into certain aspects of SoD.

t209
2012-01-01, 11:28 PM
Exactly.

The scene I described would serve to illustrate a huge change both in the way goblinoids live, and how other races view them. It would also serve to nicely tie into certain aspects of SoD.

Either that or they hated elves or scared of xykon.
I just wanted to see if Hinjo will pursue imperialist policy after retaking azure city (including human tribal allies if shown).

LtNOWIS
2012-01-05, 05:30 PM
No, they are guilty of genocide though. Which I would say is worse.
The Sapphire Guard was only a small part of Azurite society, such that a lot of Azurites didn't even know it existed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0287.html). You can't blame Azurites in general for something they had know way of knowing about.

By contrast, Gobbotopia is openly founded on the destruction and enslavement of the entirety of the previous populace.

Anyways, I would support Azure City's reconquest not for those reasons, but because their leaders are objectively good while the goblin leaders are objectively evil, and because I prefer good humans to generally evil monsters.

SowZ
2012-01-05, 06:29 PM
The Sapphire Guard was only a small part of Azurite society, such that a lot of Azurites didn't even know it existed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0287.html). You can't blame Azurites in general for something they had know way of knowing about.

By contrast, Gobbotopia is openly founded on the destruction and enslavement of the entirety of the previous populace.

Anyways, I would support Azure City's reconquest not for those reasons, but because their leaders are objectively good while the goblin leaders are objectively evil, and because I prefer good humans to generally evil monsters.

The government of Azure City is guilty of what the Sapphire Guard does. I prefer a group openly stating what they do, (even when evil,) to a group that claims to be based on one thing and then does something else. The idea that goblins are generally evil monsters will continue and the oppression that follows will

If Azurites deserve Azure City because they were kicked out of it then goblins deserve the land since their ancestors owned and were kicked out of it. If it was wrong for the goblins to lay seige to Azure City is it wrong for the Azurites to lay seige to Gobbotopia. I supported the defense of Azure City because of Xykon and his intentions with the gate. With Xykon gone and the gate destroyed anyway, I support the right of Gobbotopia to exist as much as I support any city.

Human cities in OOTS tend to be okay with slaughtering monster races just as monster race cities tend to be okay with killing or enslaving humans. This is a cycle. It makes sense based on how people can act and is consistent with the D&D mythos. But if goblins are evil because of how they treat humans then humans are evil because of how they treat monster races.

Yeah, most Azurites weren't aware of the genocide and haven't killed any goblins. But most goblins haven't killed any humans or own slaves. The best answer is that neither side is evil for it but both are trapped in a cycle of extreme speciesism that supporting status quote cannot change.

Goblins are fulfilling the roles people place on them. With a legitimate city and global influence? The world has a chance at becoming a better place.

t209
2012-01-06, 01:13 AM
Yeah, most Azurites weren't aware of the genocide and haven't killed any goblins. But most goblins haven't killed any humans or own slaves. The best answer is that neither side is evil for it but both are trapped in a cycle of extreme speciesism that supporting status quote cannot change.
Objection, Most goblins in the GObbotopia are soldiers and therefore kill Azurites.
P.S- I just wanted to see a province in one of the southern nations that refuses to help Hinjo seceded and wage war on Gobbotopia (like Hammerfell in Skyrim) along with support from Nomad Tribes who then moves into blue river.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-06, 09:51 AM
Remember the Azurites being totally outclassed even once Team Evil left and even with a fifth column? Yeah. Fifth column's gone. Gobbotopia ain't goin' nowhere.

Souhiro
2012-01-06, 10:12 AM
I would prefer to Neo-Azure City. With Gobbotopia disbanded, their leaders scattered, and their forces crippled. The surviving gobbos would come back to their tribal zones, where they came from, and they would curse the name of Redcloak and "The Dark One" for as long their memory persist, as their leaders.


In the afterlife, a depowered Dark One and a powerless Redcloak sits down "So... what are we going to do now, my ex-god?"

Then... the powerful voice of Thor sounds before them
"So, my good child Durkon" (Who is stated to die) "Do you know why we created goblins? Yes, as easy XP for clerics"

The End.

t209
2012-01-06, 11:28 AM
I would prefer to Neo-Azure City. With Gobbotopia disbanded, their leaders scattered, and their forces crippled. The surviving gobbos would come back to their tribal zones, where they came from, and they would curse the name of Redcloak and "The Dark One" for as long their memory persist, as their leaders.


In the afterlife, a depowered Dark One and a powerless Redcloak sits down "So... what are we going to do now, my ex-god?"

Then... the powerful voice of Thor sounds before them
"So, my good child Durkon" (Who is stated to die) "Do you know why we created goblins? Yes, as easy XP for clerics"

The End.
and Azure city fell into disorder from inability to control huge amount of lands and racial tension with Nomad Tribes and a seceded province from one of the four nations (Think Hammerfell in Skyrim).

Vahir
2012-01-06, 04:59 PM
and Azure city fell into disorder from inability to control huge amount of lands and racial tension with Nomad Tribes and a seceded province from one of the four nations (Think Hammerfell in Skyrim).

Not really. I would imagine that at that point, the nomads and such would be subjugated and/or exterminated by the expanding goblins.

You, my friend, play too much Skyrim.

SowZ
2012-01-06, 07:30 PM
Objection, Most goblins in the GObbotopia are soldiers and therefore kill Azurites.
P.S- I just wanted to see a province in one of the southern nations that refuses to help Hinjo seceded and wage war on Gobbotopia (like Hammerfell in Skyrim) along with support from Nomad Tribes who then moves into blue river.

Most of the invading soldiers didn't kill any Azurites. It would have been literaly impossible for them to do so since the Goblins outnumbered the Azurites so much.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-06, 07:36 PM
Most of the invading soldiers didn't kill any Azurites. It would have been literaly impossible for them to do so since the Goblins outnumbered the Azurites so much.
Apparently (I'm getting this secondhand from Gift Geraf) there were 250,000 Azurites within the city walls at the time of the invasion, of which about 9,000 were deployed as soldiers for the battle, and another 250,000 scattered around the hinterland. Of the Azurites in the city, I still remain of the belief that about 30,000 managed to evacuate, based on the capacity of Hinjo's junk and the number of ships seen with the evacuation fleet. There were 20,000 hobgoblins left from the army at the end of the invasion. Given these numbers, just who outnumbered whom at the end of the battle?

More relevantly, who had to kill how many of whom to get to the state of play we see now (where the human population is small enough to confine to underground tunnels and prisons)?

SowZ
2012-01-06, 07:53 PM
Apparently (I'm getting this secondhand from Gift Geraf) there were 250,000 Azurites within the city walls at the time of the invasion, of which about 9,000 were deployed as soldiers for the battle, and another 250,000 scattered around the hinterland. Of the Azurites in the city, I still remain of the belief that about 30,000 managed to evacuate, based on the capacity of Hinjo's junk and the number of ships seen with the evacuation fleet. There were 20,000 hobgoblins left from the army at the end of the invasion. Given these numbers, just who outnumbered whom at the end of the battle?

More relevantly, who had to kill how many of whom to get to the state of play we see now (where the human population is small enough to confine to underground tunnels and prisons)?

I didn't factor the civilians into my equation. Since we don't know the real number who evacuated, (either through ships or tunnels or whatever,) and don't know how many were taken as slaves, it is almost impossible to say then. It may be likely that most of the soldiers killed some azurites. Then again, we don't know how many of the current residents of gobbotopia moved in after the battle and how many were noncombatants or family of the soldiers.

I am dropping that as an argument since it seems impossible to say whether or not most goblins in gobbotopia have killed anyone.

To be clear, I think Gobbotopia as it stands has evil laws and evil leadership, (even if Redcloak is sympathetic. With Redcloak and Xykon leaving? That makes things more hopeful.) But I think the attitude of many human cities towards monster races, (kobolds being killed in the streets for a bounty, anyone?) has fostered understandable hatred. I don't think most goblins are evil for this racism anymore than most Azurites or adventurers are evil. Both are ignorant. I just think Gobbotopia is the best hope for the future.

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-06, 08:20 PM
I didn't factor the civilians into my equation. Since we don't know the real number who evacuated, (either through ships or tunnels or whatever,) and don't know how many were taken as slaves, it is almost impossible to say then.
During the pre-battle war council (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html), there is no mention of evacuating people through tunnels. All hopes for evacuation are pinned on the fleet. Furthermore, Haley implies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0537.html) that the tunnel system isn't exactly public knowledge. The path to which they lead is largely abandoned, and the hobgoblins don't guard it heavily. If it was used as an evacuation point for hundreds of thousands of unaccounted-for Azurite civilians, knowledge of its existence would be more widespread and it would be more heavily patrolled, or even blocked off. As for how many people could be evacuated by ship, if you're not satisfied with my ballpark estimate based on Hinjo's junk, Lien, who as a nautical expert should be expected to know, estimates the carrying capacity of the fleet in the tens of thousands - which just so happens to mesh with the figures based off Hinjo's junk. I think we do have good evidence that the number of people evacuated was significantly smaller than the number of people within the walls of Azure City at the start of the battle.


It may be likely that most of the soldiers killed some azurites. Then again, we don't know how many of the current residents of gobbotopia moved in after the battle and how many were noncombatants or family of the soldiers.
We know that 93% of the population at the time of the proclamation of Gobbotopia is hobgoblin. We apparently know from a bonus strip (which again I'm getting at second-hand) that the 30,000-strong army mobilized by Xykon and Redcloak was about 90% of the population of the hobgoblin fortress. I don't like or trust that figure, but there it is. We do not know how many hobgoblins moved back to the fortress in the mountains, how many moved from the fortress to the city, or vice versa, or how many hobgoblins emigrated from outside those two population centers, but it would seem that the bulk of the citizenry of Gobbotopia at the time of its proclamation was made up of people who fought in the Battle for Azure City. Given the good evidence we have that most of the Azurites within the city walls were not evacuated, and given that the human population of the city seems to have been reduced by substantially more than could have been evacuated by ship, I think it's safe to assume a whole lot of Azurite civilian casualties.


I am dropping that as an argument since it seems impossible to say whether or not most goblins in gobbotopia have killed anyone.
That's your perogative. I happen to think that it's a fairly important commentary on the character of the society whether its citizens as well as its leadership are culpable in acts of depravity. Think of how often the innocence or guilt of ordinary Azurites comes up in arguments about whether it was just for them to be conquered, driven from their homes, enslaved or killed based on the actions of the Sapphire Guard and presumably the Lord of the City. Why should the culpability of ordinary Gobbotopians matter any less?


To be clear, I think Gobbotopia as it stands has evil laws and evil leadership, (even if Redcloak is sympathetic. With Redcloak and Xykon leaving? That makes things more hopeful.) But I think the attitude of many human cities towards monster races, (kobolds being killed in the streets for a bounty, anyone?) has fostered understandable hatred. I don't think most goblins are evil for this racism anymore than most Azurites or adventurers are evil. Both are ignorant. I just think Gobbotopia is the best hope for the future.
Only if Gobbotopia manages to get beyond its original sins. Even if Team Evil leaves, there's nothing to make it do so beyond the goodwill of the Gobbotopians. Cliffport's hopes of getting them to reevaluate human slavery through economic engagement are specifically called out in-comic as laughable. We'll see if that goodwill is actually present. If it's not, then all we will get is the reproduction of the humanoid/monstrous races conflict on a larger, more organized, and more destructive scale. Think about how the new leadership continues to frame relations with the outside world. As metaphorical battles, but battles nonetheless (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html). Tarriff wars can be as deleterious as real wars, and can also lead to them.

t209
2012-01-06, 11:14 PM
Not really. I would imagine that at that point, the nomads and such would be subjugated and/or exterminated by the expanding goblins.

You, my friend, play too much Skyrim.

Nomads have advantage of
1. Hit and Run
2. Inability to find them since they move alot!
How about alliance?

Draconi Redfir
2012-01-08, 09:30 PM
Well Dwarves hate goblinoids right? Maybe they could ask the northern Dwarves for assistance or something, Dwarves like a good fight right?

Not to mention there's probably one or two monstrous races such as ogres or tolls that don't like the idea of goblinoids having something as big as an entire city that they don't, if not the entire race then at least a group or two of them. (i mean yes i know gobbotopia accepts ogres and trolls and the like among it's citizenry, but there are always those who veiw themselves as superior in all ways to goblinoids and thus feel threatened by the thought of the goblinoids having an entire gaddang city when all they have is huts and tents.)

zimmerwald1915
2012-01-09, 12:41 AM
Well Dwarves hate goblinoids right? Maybe they could ask the northern Dwarves for assistance or something, Dwarves like a good fight right?
According to Redcloak there's eight nations between the Dwarven lands (assuming Kraagor's Gate is in the Dwarven lands) and what is now Gobbotopia. At least one of these, and possibly more, have recognized Gobbotopia, and are thus less than likely to allow the Dwarves military access through their territory. These being Dwarves, they could of course smash through any conceivable opposition in time ( :smallwink: ) but what could induce them to do so?