How much nerf for full casters to get them to T3?

[Balor01]

So, question is simple : How and via which limitations hould tier 1 casters be nerfed if one wanted to make them on-par with tier 3 classes?

[Little Brother]

Change their name to Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer?

[Reluctance]

Themed fixed-list fullcasters tend towards T3. T4 in the case of the warmage. So all you have to do is force them into a limited/themed spell list.

Otherwise, you're going to have to fix/ban every single broken spell out there. The "hey, I have the perfect tool for this right here" aspect is what makes fullcasters so broken. Making it so that you don't have access to practically everything on the list is part of the solution. Making it so that spells stop being automatically successful (or giving bonuses large enough to be practically the same thing) is the other half.

[sonofzeal]

Limiting Wizards to only their specialized school, while kind of cruel, does drop them down pretty much to T3 territory. They can still break the game - but then, so can Truenamer and Healer, or anyone with UMD.

My "Minimum Intervention Balance Fix" (see sig) for Wizards is a bit of a compromise - they get full casting within their specialized school, and limited casting outside of it. It's debatable whether the result is high-T3 or low-T2, and a lot depends on the school in question, but it might give you a good place to start in coming up with your own variants.

[DoctorGlock]

Limiting Wizards to only their specialized school, while kind of cruel, does drop them down pretty much to T3 territory.

I dunno, a fixed list transmuter or conjuror will probably break t2 at least. those schools are just that good.

[candycorn]

Cut all spell lists to 4 levels. Remove any spell from the game above that level. Increase Fullcasters to medium BAB, and add 1 more good save (Fort). Increase their HD by 2 die types (max D10). Grant spellcasting progression of a ranger 4 levels higher than the fullcaster. Grant ability to cast in light and medium armor. Grant 1 cantrip per every 4 class levels, usable at will (minimum 1).

Mid-caster classes (such as bard and Psywar), also get spells above level 4 removed. Do not alter progression, however. Grant ability to cast in medium armor. Slots above level 4 are usable only for metamagic.

That's just a spitball idea.

[Alienist]

Bard is tier 3, drop their casting down that far and you're done

[Tyndmyr]

I dunno, a fixed list transmuter or conjuror will probably break t2 at least. those schools are just that good.

Nah, I made a fixed list Transmuter class, and everyone essentially agreed it was tier 3. You just lack a lot of flexibility. Teleportation? No joy. Much in the way of damage spells? Not really. It's not a BAD school, but you have lost the flexibility that T1 and T2 classes have. You can regain a small part of it via extra spell, but that's pretty limited.

[sonofzeal]

I dunno, a fixed list transmuter or conjuror will probably break t2 at least. those schools are just that good.
Those were the two I had in mind when I mentioned that some might break low-T2. I don't think that's all that bad though, especially for a change that can be summed up in a single sentence. It would be hard to make Conjurers and Transmuters T3 without removing their signature abilities. Pretty much any sort of problem can be solved either by a) summoning something that can solve the problem, or b) changing someone or something into something else that can solve the problem. I'd argue that Conjuration and Transmutation are both fundamentally T2+ schools.

Except Conjuration:Healing. Despite my defense of it in the Theurge thread, it's T4 at best.


Nah, I made a fixed list Transmuter class, and everyone essentially agreed it was tier 3. You just lack a lot of flexibility. Teleportation? No joy. Much in the way of damage spells? Not really. It's not a BAD school, but you have lost the flexibility that T1 and T2 classes have. You can regain a small part of it via extra spell, but that's pretty limited.
...I'd like to see this, then.

[candycorn]

Bard is tier 3, drop their casting down that far and you're done

Increase BAB to full, and grant all saves good, and enhance bardic music to compensate. Essentially, you are removing any mid to high level spells.

[DoctorGlock]

Nah, I made a fixed list Transmuter class, and everyone essentially agreed it was tier 3. You just lack a lot of flexibility. Teleportation? No joy. Much in the way of damage spells? Not really. It's not a BAD school, but you have lost the flexibility that T1 and T2 classes have. You can regain a small part of it via extra spell, but that's pretty limited.

While transmuter is less versatile than conjuror for the reasons zeal noted, many hold that the various shapeshifting spells can get you entire spell lists. Heck, wildshape ranger is T3 for morphing alone, a transmuter class would have that and still get loads of buffs and BC. Loss of porting hurts alot, but damage is not much of a consideration- buff, morph squish. wizards have never blasted really. Probably mid/low T2 unless you think shapechange grants casting, which is still a vast improvement over the game ending power they had before.

Conjuror... is completely irredeemable. Summon anything. BC anything. Blast anything.

[candycorn]

Conjuror... is completely irredeemable. Summon anything. BC anything. Blast anything.

Easiest way to handle Conjuror is to make summoned creatures unable to use SLA's, most likely. That would remove much of the power and versatility of the Summon lists.

[DoctorGlock]

Easiest way to handle Conjuror is to make summoned creatures unable to use SLA's, most likely. That would remove much of the power and versatility of the Summon lists.

I'd argue that it removes all of it. A summoned creature's states make it useless for anything other than SLAs. Of course, Gate calls rather than summons...

The amount of BC blast and Port would probably still leave it at T2, which is far more manageable

[GoatBoy]

Quick and dirty fix: Limit access to spells of a single school/single thematic theme. Then, re-balance the spell schools so evocation isn't a joke and transmutation/conjuration aren't horrid conglomerations of almost every useful/broken spell in 3.5. Have fun with that.

If you insist on playing a "generalist" caster, limit them to bardic spell progression. Perhaps give generalists an ability to pick a spell every 3 or 4 levels and treat it as one level lower, or get a free "arcane thesis"-like effect for it.

Tier 3 means excellent at one thing but able to contribute at least minimally to most, if not all obstacles. Alternatively, it means able to provide a decent, but not optimal, contribution to all obstacles. The arcane schools themselves are like demonstrations in the tier system, from infinitely flexible to easily countered.

Divine casters are a little trickier because their power tends to also arise from decent physical power, easily augmented via buffs. It would depend on whether you see them as divine warriors, or bookish priests. Limit their casting to 6 levels in the first case, reduce BAB/HP and remove spells like righteous might for the second. You could also rule that armour interferes with divine spells, too.

And just like that, everything is fixed. It's so simple! Why was I the only one who thought of it?

Just kidding. There is no instant fix. It's a matter of coming to terms with how you want a class to "feel" versus what a suitable level of in-game power is acceptable. This will vary between different people.

I could go on, but this has all been said before. Learn the system, understand how people respond your ideas, and find out where "fun" and "challenge" intersect. You'll probably know what's best for your game better than anyone else.

[Tyndmyr]

Those were the two I had in mind when I mentioned that some might break low-T2. I don't think that's all that bad though, especially for a change that can be summed up in a single sentence. It would be hard to make Conjurers and Transmuters T3 without removing their signature abilities. Pretty much any sort of problem can be solved either by a) summoning something that can solve the problem, or b) changing someone or something into something else that can solve the problem. I'd argue that Conjuration and Transmutation are both fundamentally T2+ schools.

Except Conjuration:Healing. Despite my defense of it in the Theurge thread, it's T4 at best.


...I'd like to see this, then.

Wait, may have been Abj that I'm thinking of. Note that I'm basically doing this for all of them. However, they are fixed list casters, like the warmage, etc. So, while there are options to expand the spell list, it rather notably limits the amount of shenanigans a given char is going to have access to.

For instance, in conjuration, you may want to leave off the orbs. It's not necessary to include them to get the proper feel of the class, and you may even want to subdivide conjuration out into multiple fixed list casters. I'd probably do it a few different ways to be honest...a summon focused one would be great, as would a polymorph focused one. Neither would be weak.

And yes, summoned creatures are pretty much useless for their stats at the level you get them in most cases. The SLA is normally what you grab them for, with a few specific exceptions.


But yes, in the long term, limiting spell access is the best way to get them to T3. It's easier to write a spell list than rewrite all the spells.

[Hecuba]

To my eye, there are two basic options for attempting this.

The first method, already suggested, is to functionally create limited list casters (alternately, you can present this as a proactive case by case veto on spell selection). This is generally relatively easy if you're looking at only a few characters, but there are a lot of potential magic themes out there, so this could theoretically be something you have to build one or more of each game-- essentially a pay-as-you-go strategy for your design work. There are also some points where it's thematically difficult: generalists, in particular, are difficult to design with small limited lists.

An alternate option is to alter the spells known progression: my favored option here is to cut out 8s and 9s all-together and smooth the progression to match. This has more initial work, but once it's done it doesn't require reworking for later characters. I find it works nicely with regards to persistent long-term settings. There are some notable issues that you have to resolve though:

This requires similar changes, or at least consideration, to most alternate power systems (particularly those that, like psionics, have clear analogs to the stronger 9s)
This doesn't play particularly well with fixed list casters. I have passingly considered simply cutting 9's for them and leaving their 8s, but I've honestly not tried (if people want to stick to their beguilers and warmages, the whole effort generally isn't necessary).
There are some spells, like wish and miracle, that are particularly strongly woven into the mechanics. They will need some form of special treatment, be it a ritual-casting style solution of finding a fortuitous mean with the power level of limited wish. Restoration and raise dead also generally require such attention.
3/4 casters also generally require some attention under such a system, since their additional class features can make them more lucrative than the nerfed full-casters at some level ranges. (If you smooth full-caster progression to 1 through 7, wizard max spell level overlaps with bard max spell level for about 2/3 of levels unless you change bard too). Ending at 6 is probably still appropriate for most 3/4 casters, they just need to be slower about it.


As I noted, the later is generally more work, but can be useful if you want a more general solution for a long running campaign or table.

[Amphetryon]

Beguiler and Dread Necromancer can arguably tickle the fringes of T2 with enough minionmancy and the right feat choices, given PrC support as well.

Transmuter on a fixed-list can be high-end T3, I'd think, provided you limited PrC access and made some of the creme de la crop options into Advanced Learning choices.

Conjuration seems like it'd be extremely difficult to pull off on a fixed-list basis without breaking past the T2 barrier, just due to action economy abuses that are difficult to deal with, in conjunction with the splatbook support Conjuration got enabling it to raid most of Evocation's blasting toys.

TL;DR: You'd have to pay particular attention to which spells were hard to obtain, even from the fixed lists, and you'd have to rigorously control which PrCs were available if attempting to actually confine list-casters to T3.

[Morph Bark]

Bard is tier 3, drop their casting down that far and you're done

Bard has more than just casting though, and Familiars or Turning are rather situational.

I just ban all summoning, calling and polymorph spells and leave divinations mostly vague or about a possibility, not a certainty. Long-range teleportation is likewise out.

[Psyren]

I dunno, a fixed list transmuter or conjuror will probably break t2 at least. those schools are just that good.

That's because Conjurer needs to be split as well. For instance, Saph made a Teleporter class that can easily be considered T3 while still being fun to play.

PF Summoner would also be T3 with a few of the discounted spells removed.

Transmuter would actually be fine, it's the spells that need to be broken there - polymorph, alter self etc. Try the PF versions instead, and make it harder to change the forms of party members.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Bard has more than just casting though, and Familiars or Turning are rather situational.One could use actual 2/3 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) casters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) like (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) the (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard), with thematic fixed lists and class features to match. But then one might stoop to using Paizo material, which is unacceptable.

(Also, surprise, the conjuration one is the most powerful.)

[Ducklord]

I really like the idea of having access to a single school of magic for wizards. Maybe with two secondary schools where you can only cast spells two spell levels lower than those from your primary school.

[DrDeth]

Slow spell progression for arcanists. 9th level spells are the capstone @ 20th level.

Sorc spell progression until they get 3rd level spells, then slow it down even more.

Mind you, this would still make some classes be Tier 2.

For Cleric & druid you mostly need to dump all the self-buff spells.

[Psyren]

Slow spell progression for arcanists. 9th level spells are the capstone @ 20th level.

Sorc spell progression until they get 3rd level spells, then slow it down even more.

How many games actually make it to 20? You may as well just ban 9ths entirely. And they aren't even the worst offenders.

[FMArthur]

Bard spell progression is brutal for classes whose only thing to do in any situation is to cast spells, making it too devastating to low-level play. But it's the right idea IMO.

Here's my fix:
T1-T2 casting classes use bard progression spellcasting, and spells known if applicable.

Everyone but druids: Bump the whole chart up one level.
Prepared casters: Add 1 to spells per day of each level
Spontaneous casters: Add 3 to spells per day of each level
All: Class feature of +1 to spell save DCs at 8th, 14th and 18th levels (Your highest spell levels are 1/2/3 levels below half your HD at these levels, which is sort of the 'standard' for abilities offering saves. This keeps spells that give a save relevant so certain styles of caster aren't getting nerfed more than others)
T1-T2 manifesting classes improve Maximum Power Level Known at the bumped-up Bard rate.
Power points of psions and erudites given by their class chart are reduced to 75%, rounded up.


I should point out that this does not actually bring them all the way down to T3 and does not solve T1 vs T2 balance. They still have the teleports, the flight, and generally the solve-this-problem button more than other classes. What it does do is make the gap in raw power significantly smaller, to the point where Tier 1s and Tier 2s can play nicely with T3s and some T4s without ever taking over.

Perfect balance would be nice but is essentially impossible to achieve, so simple fixes that come close and don't upheave the whole game are the best use of your time rebalancing the game in my opinion. You have to minimize the confusion and complexity if you want to actually get to running a game with cooperative players using your balance fixes.

[Lord.Sorasen]

One could use actual 2/3 (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) casters (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) like (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) the (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) Bard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard), with thematic fixed lists and class features to match. But then one might stoop to using Paizo material, which is unacceptable.

(Also, surprise, the conjuration one is the most powerful.)

To sort of continue in that vein... The summoner is considered by most people to be tier 2... But perhaps because it has limited casting levels, while having spells at lower levels than the wizard equivalent. Just straight lowering the wizard's spell list to level 6 would probably create a very different effect.


To branch back to the original topic...

I figure it's not necessarily how much to nerf casters, but in which direction. There are, from the looks of things, a few choices:

- Limit the spellcasting list, remove broken spells. Some suggest going as far as limiting the spellcasting list to level 6 or even level 4 spells! This would severely limit the caster's potential power while at least theoretically continuing to give them extreme versatility. Note that this makes blasting, already a subpar tactic, pretty much a worthless tactic for wizards, as without higher level spell slots, blasting spells will be pretty worthless. Conjuring will have the best effect, being still broken due to versatility but now worthless for other things due to the decreased level of power. Note that, while I haven't tested this really, I imagine that while this solution balances the casters with experienced players, it'd probably be a lot harder to play optimally, which would be incredibly frustrating for new players.

- Limit the list to force casters to focus on a single school: This worked for beguilers almost perfectly... But I hear Dread Necromancer still treads the line to tier 2, and warmage is no doubt tier 4 at best. Pathfinder attempts to continue the trend with the summoner, which is, due to the power of conjuration magic, is most likely tier 2. I'm sure there could be variants for the other types which would work around as well, which for many is enough.

- In the same way that people often play as tome of battle classes refluffed as paladins or fighters or what have you, I don't see why someone couldn't take tome of battle and refluff it as magic. It'd make the game a 3 class game, but it'd be a really balanced 3 class game.

[Coidzor]

Beguilerize them or just use the homebrewed beguiler-type casters instead.

Otherwise there's not a whole lot that can be done to nerf them to T3 and keep them fun.

[Draz74]

This looks like yet another thread where Ernir's Fix of Spellcasting (using Psionics-like mechanics) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194002) should be advertised.

Admittedly, I haven't been over the higher-level spells in Ernir's work with a fine-toothed comb. So maybe there are still some game-breaking tricks for his spellcasters. But from what I've seen, this brings all the spellcasters down to T3, possibly very high in T3.

[DrDeth]

How many games actually make it to 20? You may as well just ban 9ths entirely. And they aren't even the worst offenders.

Well, many classes have a capstone, are you saying that the capstone is useless as games never get that high?

True, other spells are as bad. But the point is, after 2nd level spells, all spell access is moved up, starting with wizards getting 3rd level spells @ 6, and no one getting any 9th level spells until 20. I don't I actaully have to break out the math here, I am pretty sure most get the general idea- slow down spell progression.

[Psyren]

Well, many classes have a capstone, are you saying that the capstone is useless as games never get that high?

As a matter of fact, yes. In general, they only become relevant in epic games, of which there are few. They look nice on paper but usually aren't practical.

Meanwhile, PrCs have capstones too - but those are typically reached at 15-18, rather than 20, and thus have more impact.


True, other spells are as bad. But the point is, after 2nd level spells, all spell access is moved up, starting with wizards getting 3rd level spells @ 6, and no one getting any 9th level spells until 20. I don't I actaully have to break out the math here, I am pretty sure most get the general idea- slow down spell progression.

Are you slowing down the monsters as well? Would you only fight a Tarrasque at 20, when you need that Wish/Miracle to put him down? Wights are hard enough to deal with when you only get Restoration/Death Ward at 7, how does waiting until 9 make it any easier?

[Helldog]

Would you only fight a Tarrasque at 20, when you need that Wish/Miracle to put him down?
T is CR 20, so... >.>
And you don't really need to permanently kill him to win. <.<

[Coidzor]

T is CR 20, so... >.>
And you don't really need to permanently kill him to win. <.<

much more profitable to just build a city on top of him.

[TheMeMan]

Wait, may have been Abj that I'm thinking of. Note that I'm basically doing this for all of them. However, they are fixed list casters, like the warmage, etc. So, while there are options to expand the spell list, it rather notably limits the amount of shenanigans a given char is going to have access to.

For instance, in conjuration, you may want to leave off the orbs. It's not necessary to include them to get the proper feel of the class, and you may even want to subdivide conjuration out into multiple fixed list casters. I'd probably do it a few different ways to be honest...a summon focused one would be great, as would a polymorph focused one. Neither would be weak.

And yes, summoned creatures are pretty much useless for their stats at the level you get them in most cases. The SLA is normally what you grab them for, with a few specific exceptions.


But yes, in the long term, limiting spell access is the best way to get them to T3. It's easier to write a spell list than rewrite all the spells.

I don't know how viable this is, or how effective if it is, but would one possibility be that summoned creature's SLA's function at X levels lower than it normally would? Say, a Conjurer's summons SLA's function at 5 levels lower than listed, to a minimum of 1?

For instance, a creature whose SLA function as an 8th level caster spell instead would function as a 3rd level. Maintains the purpose of going Conjuration, but reduces the power a bit. Don't think it would bring it to T3, but might be enough to bring it down significantly in power.

Would reduce the power of some of the abilities, but not all I fear.

[sreservoir]

much more profitable to just build a city on top of him.

or around him. or in him. or from him.

[Coidzor]

Well, on him is a bit better, since once you've got 1,600,000 or so pounds on top of him, you've exceeded the maximum he can drag or push under optimum conditions if he's a quadruped and well exceeded the maximum he can lift off of the ground as a biped (which is less than 500,000 pounds).

After which point, since he's also bound, one doesn't have quite the necessity of paranoia about the tarrasque butchery.

But ideally all of those, yeah.

[sreservoir]

well, suppose we have a CL 20 caster. its wall of iron will be 20 5 ft. squares, and 5 in. thick, a bit under 6 m^3. the volume of iron needed for two megapounds is some 115 m^3. twenty castings will get enough iron; then, you might need to fabricate at the edges a bit to get it to fall on the tarrasque. not bad for some 1000 gp and a few minutes of work.

[Psyren]

T is CR 20, so... >.>

...so you'll face him 1-4 levels prior to that, per the DMG guidelines.



And you don't really need to permanently kill him to win. <.<

That depends rather subjectively on your definition of win, but even getting the XP from him doesn't matter if he keeps showing up to finally bite your head off.

City derail is amusing though.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not just use the spellcasters listed here?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

[Helldog]

...so you'll face him 1-4 levels prior to that, per the DMG guidelines.
Yes. I know that you can meet him as a "ECL+4" type of challenge. So?


That depends rather subjectively on your definition of win, but even getting the XP from him doesn't matter if he keeps showing up to finally bite your head off.
Uhh... I don't think that after kicking Tarry's butt the PCs will have any further business with him. Depends on the circumstanses of the initial encounter, I guess. And there's more ways to put him down and out of commission than the use of a Wish spell. Remember, I said that you don't have to deal with him permanently, not that you just smack him a little and then ignore him. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Yes. I know that you can meet him as a "ECL+4" type of challenge. So?

So, in normal games you'd have access to Wish/Miracle by 17 rather than 20, and it would be even more imperative to keep him down at those levels when you can less afford a protracted battle.


Uhh... I don't think that after kicking Tarry's butt the PCs will have any further business with him. Depends on the circumstanses of the initial encounter, I guess.

So if the DM helps you out you have nothing to worry about? Not much of an argument, but okay.

How about other CR 20 monsters that have Wishes of their own? Say, a Pit Fiend? Would they be similarly delayed?

[Helldog]

So, in normal games you'd have access to Wish/Miracle by 17 rather than 20, and it would be even more imperative to keep him down at those levels when you can less afford a protracted battle.
As I already said, Wish/Miracle isn't the only way to defeat a Tarrasque.


So if the DM helps you out you have nothing to worry about? Not much of an argument, but okay.
That's not what I said. Nice strawman.


How about other CR 20 monsters that have Wishes of their own? Say, a Pit Fiend? Would they be similarly delayed?
I assume you're asking the guy who suggested it, right?
But in case you're talking to me: Yes, everything would have to be delayed accordingly. Don't know if the work would be worth it.

[Psyren]

I assume you're asking the guy who suggested it, right?

You leaped in to defend his position, so I assumed you knew how this ridiculous plan worked. :smallconfused:

For what it's worth, I agree - way too much work.

[Helldog]

I was only addressing the Tarrasque debacle. As for the suggested houserule, TBH I also was thinking on something like that and even posted it here and on Minmaxboards some time ago, but I didn't think on it any further. It's too much of a pain in the ass to do it.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

This is a variant I thought about while waiting the bus yesterday.
You may find it useful or not, it hasn't been tested.

here it is:
Class levels have now a cost in "level points". You can spend level points to buy class levels.
You start with 10 level points.
Then, you gain 1 level point every time you gain 1/10 of the exp between your current level and the next one.
This means that every level will grant you 10 level points.
ECL is now level points/10 rounded down for determining the amount of EXP you gain from battles.

Different classes have different costs.

Tier 6 classes cost 7 points per level
Tier 5 classes cost 8 points per level
Tier 4 classes cost 9 points per level
Tier 3 classes cost 10 points per level
Tier 2 classes cost 11 points per level
Tier 1 classes cost 12 points per level

Note: Levels can only be bought when you have all the points you need, except the first one. A level 1 wizard is in debt of 2 points which he has to repay as soon as he gets them.

How does it work:
With this system, a level 7 warblade (70 points spent) is getting the same exp as a level 10 Samurai and has the same ECL: both are 7th level characters, even if they have a different amount of hit dice.
A Wizard4/Fighter4 counts as an 8th level character, having spent a total of 80 level points.

Prestige Classes follow the same rating system, except they may fall into "tier zero" category which costs 13 points/level (incantatrix etc)

Penality for multiclassing no longer exist. Instead, you must spend 1 additional level-point to gain the first level in a new class that isn't your favorite class.
This also applies whenever you start a PRC after the first.

For better accuracy (this is not necessary):
The same class may have different costs for different levels, since Paladin 2 is better than Paladin 3.
Variants should be considered: Lion Totem Barbarian needs to be treated as a higher tier class compared to standard barbarian, for the first level only.
Casters low levels should cost less, gradually increasing the cost as they gain more powerful spells.
Commoner shouldn't be priced the same as Samurai.

Feel free to change the costs according to your own opinions.
If you feel that a level 16 warblade is still better than a level 20 fighter and inferior to a 13 level wizard, just fix it as you like.

[DoctorGlock]

@ D@rk

Seems needlessly complex, 3.5 moved away from that system for a reason. Also does little to fix anything. A lvl 5 wizard can still fly, call down lightning, shape the battlefield and summon extraplanar beings while the 10th level fighter can hit stuff. Sometimes he can hit stuff very hard.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Well, I think it can't be helped if you only look at the versatility side.
It's obvious that a fighter can only fight, while a caster has more ways to solve situations.

Still, I think my system can fix some balancing issues.
First, a self-buffed cleric will not overpower an equivalent level fighter.
With 200 level-points, when the group is facing challenge rating 20, the fighter has 25HDs, +23 baB, 4 epic feats, while the Cleric-Zilla has at best (with divine power) 16 BaB, still 16 HDs, 8th level spells (against CR 20 or higher enemies) less feats, lower saves and so on.
Casters DCs will be lower and they will fail more often.
They have less spells per day than normal, and should manage their resources more carefully. Yeah they can summon stuff, but how many times?
I think this is not "light" at all as a fix.

The fact that a fighter can only fight and not teleport the party away, well, it can't be fixed, being part of the concept.
But, at least, let's make sure that the fighter is actually the best at fighting, and is able to fill his role properly, won't we?

[DoctorGlock]

And the tier system measures versatility over power. A level 16 wizard or cleric will still wipe the floor with a level 25 fighter. 16 BAB is really more than enough when the buffs means he has 5 attacks starting at +50... which is still more than the fighter. Heck, this was true in 2e as well.

Likewise, a balance should make the game more fun. When bob has 9 levels on you it does not matter that you are more powerful, the fact is you have been gaining new stuff every 7 sessions and bob gets something new every week. No, you need classes that get equal opportunities at each level, meaning all should fall within the same tier.

The classes are indeed conceptually flawed and there is no quick and easy way to fix them. To do so requires a complete rewrite of the entire system. Legend did it, d20r is doing it, WotC abandoned the pretense and made a new edition.

[Melayl]

You could try the skill-based casting system in my sig. I think it a reasonable reduction in versatility/power, but I haven't ever really tested that assumpion.

[Gavinfoxx]

So you are changing the epic BAB system too? You mentioned 23 BAB?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

So you are changing the epic BAB system too? You mentioned 23 BAB?
I meant 20 BaB + 3 epic attack bonus.

[Dark Destiny]

This may be considered extreme, but if sorcerers were reduced to 1 spell known per spell level, this should bump them down to tier 3 or even 4.

[Curious]

This may be considered extreme, but if sorcerers were reduced to 1 spell known per spell level, this should bump them down to tier 3 or even 4.

Uh, yeah, very extreme. Personally I would just restrain them to choosing their spells from a single school, that might be enough right there.

[Helldog]

Uh, yeah, very extreme. Personally I would just restrain them to choosing their spells from a single school, that might be enough right there.
Magic schools aren't equal.

[Curious]

Magic schools aren't equal.

Well of course not. But as a quick and dirty rule, I would suggest restraining any full caster to a single school.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I agree that the specialty casters (dread necro/beguiler/warmage) are a good way to make a reasonably balanced and interesting caster. Well... the Warmage needs a little help, but that's just because his specialty is blastomancy, which tends to suck.

As far as a Conjuration specialist? Simple... check out the PF Summoner, sans Elidon, and you're probably close to the mark. Spontaneously casting Summon X Monster, maybe throw in the ability to buff summons as they arrive... that kind of thing.

So he'd be a 'pet' class, and able to fill a secondary role of buffing.

[Helldog]

Well of course not. But as a quick and dirty rule, I would suggest restraining any full caster to a single school.
Maybe better two? T3 full-casters have two main schools in their lists, plus a couple of other, thematic spells.
BTW. There are feats in Lost Empires of Faerun that allow a specialized Wizard to learn spells from his restricted schools. If we would force Wizards to take specialization, they still could have more than one school later, with some feat investment. So in other words, if you allow the feats from LEoF, your idea could work, because a dedicated Wizard would still have a chance to be a master of spells.
Clerics should have predefined spell lists that depend on domains chosen.

[Tyndmyr]

Alternatively, any means of continuously dealing >30 points of damage a round to the Tarrasque will suffice to keep him down indefinitely.

This can be as simple as a high level fighter or three stopping by occasionally to beat him ridiculously down into the negatives.

[Telonius]

Personally I don't mind going through and banning the individual broken stuff. There are a few obvious linchpins that are present in almost every ridiculous batman build. I mean things like:

Time Stop (You wait there while I put Voltron together)
Celerity line (No, I go first)
Genesis (Hey, it's my demiplane of power!)
Contingency/craft contingent spell (No, you don't kill me, I plane shift to my demiplane of power)
Shapechange, Polymorph & co. (I have an app for that)
Gating and/or summoning shenanigans (My friend has an app for that)
Contact Other Plane (Now I know which app to get)
Spells with fifty metamagic effects stacked, plus Metamagic Reducers (Boom!)
Assay Spell Resistance (You will be assimilated, resistance is futile)

(Note that this is leaving aside silliness like Pun-Pun, the Locate City Bomb, infinite loops, chain-gating, the Dark Chaos shuffle, obvious errors like the Dust of Sneezing and Choking, and other nonsense that probably wasn't intended by the designers. If a DM can't see one of those coming and hit it with the nerf-bat, I have little sympathy for him. This is just for the things that break the game when used as advertised).

So with that collection, what would I do?

Ban: Time Stop, Celerity, Genesis, Contingency, Craft Contingent Spell, Contact Other Plane, Assay Spell Resistance.

Nerf:
- Shapechange/Polymorph. Either limit the amount of stuff it can give you, or institute Mom's Silly Faces rule (Keep doing that and it'll get stuck that way).
- Gating or Summoning. If calling in an intelligent creature, the caster must make a Charisma check vs. that creature's HD, or the spell fails. (Planar Ally spells probably wouldn't have to do that). No Wishes or Miracles are free.
- Metamagic stacking: Remove reducers like Nightsticks for divine casters. Institute some limit on the number (or +level) of metamagics applicable. Ban Incantatrix.

A bunch of other things would get the nerf-bat as well. The Test of Spite rules are a good place to look for big offenders. But beyond that, Fly should be higher level. The tactical advantages of flight are just a little too big for when you get it. Glitterdust is just a bit too good. Grease should not be an auto-win at low levels. Forcecage needs a reflex save negates. Plane Shift and Teleport need a longer casting time (say two rounds). Anyspell line doesn't exist. Killer Gnome is forced to admit that, yes, Shadowcraft Mage is actually the 3.5 update of Shadowcrafter; so no, you can't take it.

There are certainly broken combinations that this would leave out, but I think those cover the most important and most widely-used gamebreakers. All those changes together would probably drop Wizards a full tier. (Still very dangerous, but can't break the multiverse at will). For Druids, use the Shapeshift Variant, trade Animal Companions with the Ranger, and Wilding Clasps don't exist. Voila, Tier 2 Druid. Clerics? Divine Metamagic does not exist, Divine Power is War Domain only, and HD drops one step. Sounds like Tier 2 to me. Archivists are limited as to what they can put in their spellbook; they might only be able to scribe a non-cleric spell of half the max level they can cast. That sounds like it wold be Tier 2-ish.

Artificer is ... hard. Honestly don't know what to do about him. I love the concept, but the versatility could be just too much. Also no ideas on the Erudite, I'm just not very good with Psionics.

To get them down further, to Tier 3, I think I'm in agreement with most of the posters already. The primary casters would need either a slower spell progression or a more restricted list of spells. Personally I'd favor a mixture. Bard progression, with a small number of bonus 7th, 8th, and 9th-level spells given at levels 17-20 based on spell school, deity, or some other criteria for Druid.

[Tyndmyr]

Time Stop (You wait there while I put Voltron together)

In fairness, it's level 9. Level 9 spells tend toward wildly broken.


Celerity line (No, I go first)

The line is not bad so long as you do not allow it to be comboed with immunity to dazing. The earlier spells are not as epic anyhow, and are rarely that abuseable.


Genesis (Hey, it's my demiplane of power!)

Don't allow time trait craziness, and Genesis is more about flavorful world creation than actual cheese. Also, it's costly and slow.


Contingency/craft contingent spell (No, you don't kill me, I plane shift to my demiplane of power)

Contingency is useful, but limited in spell level. No contingent time stops or the like. Read the limitations carefully. CCS is rather more broken...but very costly. If you don't allow gold creating shenanigans, it is likely to be used in moderation in actual play. Consider adding all contingency limitations to CCS.


Gating and/or summoning shenanigans (My friend has an app for that)

Summoning is not particularly broken. The shenanigans mostly just make it useful.


Contact Other Plane (Now I know which app to get)

Not really that bad if you hold to the limitations. Yes or no questions, with chance of failures.


Spells with fifty metamagic effects stacked, plus Metamagic Reducers (Boom!)

Metamagics are mostly useless without reducers. Stacking tons is great, but that alone tends to make you a one trick pony. A very good one trick pony, but it's merely a means to the end.


Assay Spell Resistance (You will be assimilated, resistance is futile)
[/spoiler]

SR no spells are already pretty good. This mostly allows more variety. Not a bad thing.

[quote] the Locate City Bomb

A fantastic plot device. Note it's limitations carefully.


chain-gating

Read gate very, very carefully. Specifically, note the whole end of service clause. Not a problem.


the Dark Chaos shuffle

Not that much of a problem, really. It has a cost. If you don't allow racial feats to be swapped, and note that repeatedly embracing and shunning dark and evil things MAY have unintended consequences...

*shrug* I allow Incantatrix, etc. I'm not sure that T3 is necessarily the ideal point it's made out to be.

You want a problematic spell? Mindrape. It's more broken than basically any other combination of spells put together.

[Dark Destiny]

The Warmage is basically a spontaneous Evoker and is considered T4. The Dread Necromancer is T3. Beguilers aren't really one school-casters and they're high T3.

I'd guess that spontaneous Transmuters, Illusionists, and Conjurers would be T3. Abjurers, Diviners, and Enchanters would be T4. It probably wouldn't hurt much to give everyone access to Universal spells.

I don't think these should be the only full arcane casters because a lot of character concepts become difficult or impossible. For instance, you couldn't have a guy who can cast Fly and Scorching Ray. I don't think there's any two-spell combination that by itself would make you Tier 2, yet most two-spell combinations are impossible with single-school casters.

So I'd also include a sorcerer class that has access to the full spell list, but gets fewer spells known than currently. Maybe 2 spells per level is balanced.

As for wizards, I'd give them a limited number of spells known, maxing out at the amount sorcerers have in RAW. They still need books and they still prepare spells. Wizards can copy spells into their books without knowing them. They don't have to choose their new spells known immediately when they level up; they can choose them anytime, but once they do they're stuck with them until they retrain. They can retrain every level, switching out any two spells known for new spells.

[FMArthur]

Forced magic school exclusivity doesn't actually reduce the insane power of the spells (especially if you picked the right school), it just makes the classes significantly less interesting. You play a wizard because you want to have a wonderful bag of tricks. That change is just the worst of both worlds - you haven't nerfed them below the point of being able to ruin games at will, and you've also made them way less fun to play.

A bard progression with bumped-up spells-per-day lets them still play as being flexible classes (hey guess why Tier 3s are so much more fun to play than Tier 5s), they can leave true specialization to the fixed-list casters and aren't as strong as them, and new spell levels come at a rate closer to the levels where enemies can be reasonably expected to defend against them. If you want them to still be fun to play after your nerfs, you should drop the power, not the versatility.