Who would win?

[motoko's ghost]

BoVD Asmodeus(converted to 3.5) or BoED Zaphkiel?
Both are meant to be CR32, but I wasnt actually sure if they were equally powerful.

This is just in a straight up fight with no minions.

[DoctorGlock]

Whoever wins initiative and starts chaingating. It might start with no minions, but it sure as heck will not end that way.

[motoko's ghost]

Whoever wins initiative and starts chaingating. It might start with no minions, but it sure as heck will not end that way.

:frown:

What if you disabled summons(or at least gate spells)

[sonofzeal]

It's pretty darn close. Same initiative, comparable saves... Asmodeus has a faster fly speed, but that's pretty meaningless at this level. Zaphkiel has a far better AC, DR, and if it comes down to anything other than SoL/SoD then his dual stigmata (Suffering at Asmodeus, Soothing at himself) pretty much assures victory in a slugfest. Both auto-save against each other's spells and SLA's, both have full Cleric casting which is chock-full of unbypassable defences like Freedom of Movement and Death Ward, so both are going to be very tough nuts to crack in anything besides a slugfest.

Question - does "Demand Submission" count as {charm} or {compulsion}, or even {mind affecting}? It should, but it doesn't technically have those tags, and without those tags Asmodeus can keep spamming it until Zaphkiel fails. It's pretty obviously all three of those, but Asmodeus is the king of loopholes.

I have to give it to Asmodeus unless the DM running the fight closes that particular loophole. Then it goes to Zaphkiel, because they can just keep countering each other until it devolves into a sissy hp-damage slapfight that Zaphkiel likely wins.

[motoko's ghost]

It's pretty darn close. Same initiative, comparable saves... so both are going to be very tough nuts to crack in anything besides a slugfest.

Question - does "Demand Submission" count as {charm} or {compulsion}, or even {mind affecting}? It should, but it doesn't technically have those tags, and without those tags Asmodeus can keep spamming it until Zaphkiel fails. It's pretty obviously all three of those, but Asmodeus is the king of loopholes.

I have to give it to Asmodeus unless the DM running the fight closes that particular loophole. Then it goes to Zaphkiel, because they can just keep countering each other until it devolves into a sissy hp-damage slapfight that Zaphkiel likely wins.

Ok, good, I kinda need them balanced for a campaign setting I was working on(not the tower, a different one)

Honestly dont know, WotC has sometimes been a bit...spotty in the proofreading department

Also that last paragraph gave me a mental image of the two of them doing that sissy slapping each others hands thing you see on tv.:smalltongue:

[sonofzeal]

Ok, good, I kinda need them balanced for a campaign setting I was working on(not the tower, a different one)

Honestly dont know, WotC has sometimes been a bit...spotty in the proofreading department
There may have been something I missed. But looking at the stats side by side, it's obvious the two were based on each other. The ability scores and saves are almost identical, and I don't think that's a coincidence.


Also that last paragraph gave me a mental image of the two of them doing that sissy slapping each others hands thing you see on tv.:smalltongue:
Then my work here is done! Sonofzeal AWAY! *vamooses*

[Dr.Epic]

BoVD Asmodeus(converted to 3.5) or BoED Zaphkiel?
Both are meant to be CR32, but I wasnt actually sure if they were equally powerful.

Maybe there is not clear winner. You could have 1,000 mock battles though to decide this.:smallwink:

[olentu]

It's pretty darn close. Same initiative, comparable saves... Asmodeus has a faster fly speed, but that's pretty meaningless at this level. Zaphkiel has a far better AC, DR, and if it comes down to anything other than SoL/SoD then his dual stigmata (Suffering at Asmodeus, Soothing at himself) pretty much assures victory in a slugfest. Both auto-save against each other's spells and SLA's, both have full Cleric casting which is chock-full of unbypassable defences like Freedom of Movement and Death Ward, so both are going to be very tough nuts to crack in anything besides a slugfest.

Question - does "Demand Submission" count as {charm} or {compulsion}, or even {mind affecting}? It should, but it doesn't technically have those tags, and without those tags Asmodeus can keep spamming it until Zaphkiel fails. It's pretty obviously all three of those, but Asmodeus is the king of loopholes.

I have to give it to Asmodeus unless the DM running the fight closes that particular loophole. Then it goes to Zaphkiel, because they can just keep countering each other until it devolves into a sissy hp-damage slapfight that Zaphkiel likely wins.

As I recall demand submission has a bit where anyone who saves against the ability is forever immune.

[motoko's ghost]

Maybe there is not clear winner. You could have 1,000 mock battles though to decide this.:smallwink:

:smallsigh: Okay.
Roll for initiative
...
Many weeks later
...
Okay so thats a final score of... wait I forgot to factor in one of his buffs!
:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:
everything is ruined forever!
:flips table:

[Psyren]

Is it just me, or does Zaphkiel look an awful lot like Zarus? :smalleek:


:smallsigh: Okay.
Roll for initiative
...
Many weeks later
...
Okay so thats a final score of... wait I forgot to factor in one of his buffs!
:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:
everything is ruined forever!
:flips table:

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

[Eldan]

Zaphkiel has the advantage of being able to withdraw to the seventh heaven, where no one else can follow him.

[Psyren]

Zaphkiel has the advantage of being able to withdraw to the seventh heaven, where no one else can follow him.

I doubt he could follow Asmodeus to the 9th layer either though; being lawful, he has to abide by the Pact Primeval.

[Cruiser1]

Zaphkiel has the advantage of being able to withdraw to the seventh heaven, where no one else can follow him.Zaphkiel (and all of the Celestial Hebdomad) has another advantage in that they really can't be killed. Or rather they can be, however if that happens, "another Archon somewhere in Celestia rises to take its place, instantly assuming the form, rank, and power of the fallen one" (BOED page 125) In other words, Zaphkiel can die, and I'm sure would be willing to martyr himself for a good cause, however instantly a new Zaphkiel appears and plane shifts/greater teleports back to continue the fight.

Basically, the concept of Celestia requires and creates a Zaphkiel, where one would need to "break the wheel" or destroy entire planes to really get rid of him. Deities are powerful, however the outer planes are more powerful still. I recall a reference that once an entire pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198634) of lawful and/or good deities tried to destroy the Abyss, and not only failed but were consumed by it and became new layers or such.

[Big Fau]

The biggest question is "Does Asmodeus have his rod"? That thing heals him up to full HP and refreshes spell slots.