[3.5] Metamagic that is worth it in core only?

[deuxhero]

Wondering. I know extend is great for buffs or no-save stuff, but is anything else worth a feat?

[vegetalss4]

Wondering. I know extend is great for buffs or no-save stuff, but is anything else worth a feat?

Quicken definitively is, some of the others may be depending on specifics of build and spells.

[Runestar]

Empower isn't bad for spells with a significant "fixed" component, such as ray of enfeeblement.

[Fax Celestis]

Widen is pretty good too if you use it right.

[Dazed&Confused]

I liked Widen when I used to Freezing Fog + Widened "Cold" Fireballs until everyone in the area died. (the cold wasn't necessary, but it was cool)

[Dazed&Confused]

And I don't know if you mean "metamagic from core" or "metamagic used on core stuff", if it's the first one I really love Heighten on Incantatrix cohorts.

[Salanmander]

I've always been a fan of extend at low-mid levels (like 5-10). It makes hours/level go all day, and minutes/level frequently be useable as a pre-buff (like if you have a traditional dungeon, or are sneaking into a castle, or whatever).

[FMArthur]

Sometimes Still Spell is worth it, but it's hard to see myself actually preparing a Still Spell beforehand because I'll be in a bind when it's needed and the nature of that predicament is hard to predict ahead of time. That's a sponaneous casting advantage right there. On prepared casters Sudden Still offers the same emergency aid, but that's not available in core.

[Thurbane]

Wondering. I know extend is great for buffs or no-save stuff, but is anything else worth a feat?
Extend is also pretty good for spells of a fixed duration, like Ice Storm - if the enemies are still in the area, it effectively doubles the damage.

[Novawurmson]

Heighten is great for Sorcerers...it essentially allows you to augment all your spells like a psion.

[Snowbluff]

Heighten is great for Sorcerers...it essentially allows you to augment all your spells like a psion.

In Core only MM would taken a full-round action to apply and cast :l

[Marnath]

In Core only MM would taken a full-round action to apply and cast :l

Really though, how often do casters need to move around during a fight?

[gbprime]

Really though, how often do casters need to move around during a fight?

If they DON'T, the DM isn't being evil enough. :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

If they DON'T, the DM isn't being evil enough. :smallamused:

This, and that for higher level spells slots, you could be casting a better spell. :smallsigh: Not that the idea is without merit, but this is bad in Core, and manages to be bad outside of Core, too.

[sreservoir]

This, and that for higher level spells slots, you could be casting a better spell. :smallsigh: Not that the idea is without merit, but this is bad in Core, and manages to be bad outside of Core, too.

not necessarily, if you use unique-effect BFC with saves or something.

usually, though, sure.

[gbprime]

This, and that for higher level spells slots, you could be casting a better spell. :smallsigh: Not that the idea is without merit, but this is bad in Core, and manages to be bad outside of Core, too.

Well then again, with core only, there aren't a lot of "better" spells. Empowering a fireball is actually a workable option when there aren't other 5th level boom spells to choose from. And it does stretch the sorcerer's list out quite a bit at the expense of easily-saved spells.

[Snowbluff]

Well then again, with core only, there aren't a lot of "better" spells. Empowering a fireball is actually a workable option when there aren't other 5th level boom spells to choose from. And it does stretch the sorcerer's list out quite a bit at the expense of easily-saved spells.

Agreed. Heighten, on topic btw, would increase the Save by 1 times the number of heightenings (it's a verb nao!!!). We could calculate the average save tho the difference in damage per round, but I think we it's "save" to say Empower would win out.

Now for where Heighten would even be conceivable, your Save-Or-Dies, Illusions, etc., you probably have an alternative to cast. In example, have fun with your Heightened Still Image, I'll cast my Minor Image.

[tyckspoon]

Now for where Heighten would even be conceivable, your Save-Or-Dies, Illusions, etc., you probably have an alternative to cast. In example, have fun with your Heightened Still Image, I'll cast my Minor Image.

Shadowgnome says hi. :smallbiggrin:

On topic- there are some fairly unique low-level spells that are good Heighten candidates. Just in Core, to the best of my memory there aren't really any higher-level things that reliably do what Grease, Glitterdust, Web, and Black Tentacles do (although Tentacles doesn't actually use a save, so nevermind that one.)

[Snowbluff]

Shadowgnome says hi. :smallbiggrin:

On topic- there are some fairly unique low-level spells that are good Heighten candidates. Just in Core, to the best of my memory there aren't really any higher-level things that reliably do what Grease, Glitterdust, Web, and Black Tentacles do (although Tentacles doesn't actually use a save, so nevermind that one.)

Agreed. Grease is an excellent spell for this. Good catch. I'll gladly spent a second level spell or get a wand of +4 ability (Eagle's Splendor). I still wouldn't spend a feat on it.

Or cast a Toppling (PF) Magic Missile, and Knock over everyone, or force one person to take a bunch of trip attacks. SR yes, but it's cool.

[navar100]

For a Sorcerer, Silent Spell and Still Spell are a nice combination. It sucks it costs two feats, but the combined +2 spell level is a fair cost. For other spellcasters you have to really plan for it.

Clerics and Bards could make good use of Silent Spell for casting the spell Silence as a particular tactic.

For non-combatant clerics, Heighten can be useful. You would Heighten Sanctuary to spell slots combative clerics would have used for Divine Power and Righteous Might.

[olentu]

For a Sorcerer, Silent Spell and Still Spell are a nice combination. It sucks it costs two feats, but the combined +2 spell level is a fair cost. For other spellcasters you have to really plan for it.

Clerics and Bards could make good use of Silent Spell for casting the spell Silence as a particular tactic.

For non-combatant clerics, Heighten can be useful. You would Heighten Sanctuary to spell slots combative clerics would have used for Divine Power and Righteous Might.

I do not believe that you can generally apply silent spell to bard spells.

[Jack_Simth]

Now for where Heighten would even be conceivable, your Save-Or-Dies, Illusions, etc., you probably have an alternative to cast. In example, have fun with your Heightened Still Image, I'll cast my Minor Image.
In the case of a Wizard, this is pretty much universally true, as the Wizard doesn't really have a cap on spells known - you don't Heighten Charm Person, you use Dominate Person instead.

In the case of a Sorcerer, this is much less true... because of the limited spells known. There's a number of low-level Save-or-Lose spells (Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Grease, Hideous Laughter, and Suggestion tend to be favorites) that are left behind at higher levels due to the low save DC. Heighten fixes that. Yes, an inherently higher-level spell will generally be better... but when you've only got one 8th level spell known, Heighten Spell lets some of your 2nd and 3rd level spells known stay relevant.

[Marnath]

In the case of a Wizard, this is pretty much universally true, as the Wizard doesn't really have a cap on spells known - you don't Heighten Charm Person, you use Dominate Person instead.

In the case of a Sorcerer, this is much less true... because of the limited spells known. There's a number of low-level Save-or-Lose spells (Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Grease, Hideous Laughter, and Suggestion tend to be favorites) that are left behind at higher levels due to the low save DC. Heighten fixes that. Yes, an inherently higher-level spell will generally be better... but when you've only got one 8th level spell known, Heighten Spell lets some of your 2nd and 3rd level spells known stay relevant.

you can also use it with elemental reserve attack feats to get the highest dice available per level without burning spells known on blasting spells I.E. electric jolt and heighten technically gives you an electric spell of your maximum available spell level(it's debatable, but no more than a lot of other things you see on this board.) Yes it's kind of a waste of feats, but that depends on the campaign I guess.