Penelope Starshine

[Sunken Valley]

This isn't my own theory but I've done all the research for it and I'm the first to make a thread on it.

My theory is that Penelope is a direct relative of Haley Starshine. Obviously she is not her mother. Penelope's daughter is a new character. But there are other theories which link the two inextricably together.

First off, Tarquin says Haley reminds him of one of his wives. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html). Penelope is a wife of Tarquin. Now this is a loose theory. Tarquin said that Haley reminded him of wife 5. Penelope is wife 9. But is Tarquin likely to remember his wives exactly. No, he's not. He's a busy man. Besides this may be a hint from Rich himself.

Next off we have Penelope's debut in 816 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html). Looks quite a bit like Haley doesn't she? Further evidence is the baby. The baby has a stray lock. Penelope does not...but then we see the hairstyle of our other human's. Roy, Haley and Elan all have the parent who is their gender's hairstyle and the parent of the opposite sex's haircolour. The baby bears Orrin's bright red. So where did she get that lock. Which brings us to our final point.

Ian's escape attempts are always stopped at the last minute. The common theory is that these are thwarted by a family member, the one person Ian would trust. This is suspected to be Geoff. But what if it was Ivy? Ivy has a clear motive of doing so. She's the wife of Tarquin himself. That stray lock of hair comes from the maternal side. Haley's mum, Ivy's sister has that lock. Add this to the fact that Rich has put a mystery over Ivy through his comments and we have never seen Ivy and this means that Ivy and Penelope are one the same.

No I don't know who killed her. I say Geoff or someone we haven't met.

What do you think? It's probably bull but it's the best we got.

And yes I know the irony is that Penelope is not a Starshine. She's Haley's mum's maiden name. It's a better title.

[Gift Jeraff]

Assuming Tarquin's marriages last about 2-ish years (8 wives over the course of 15-16 years), that would mean he thought someone who died a few weeks ago was someone he married about a decade ago. Not to mention he calls her his ninth wife at least twice and refers to Amun-Zora as Future Mrs. Tarquin #10. I would imagine if Rich wanted to indicate that Tarquin loses track of his wives, he would have made him screwup at least one more time. Yeah...no.

[Sunken Valley]

Assuming Tarquin's marriages last about 2-ish years (8 wives over the course of 15-16 years), that would mean he thought someone who died a few weeks ago was someone he married about a decade ago. Not to mention he calls her his ninth wife at least twice and refers to Amun-Zora as Future Mrs. Tarquin #10. I would imagine if Rich wanted to indicate that Tarquin loses track of his wives, he would have made him screwup at least one more time. Yeah...no.

But that's one point. The other points are better.

[Howler Dagger]

{{scrubbed}}

[Gift Jeraff]

the Giant's comments about appearancesWhich, fittingly enough, was about someone on the Western Continent being related to Haley because of their hair (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7066430&postcount=17).

Also, looking again...Penelope looks nothing like either Haley or Mia. And Ivy is referred to as Ian's sister and Geoff's wife.

[Sunken Valley]

{{scrubbed}}

I assume your referring to this woman. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0683.html). Doesn't have the stray lock. Only three characters have that lock, Haley, Mia and the baby. Where did the baby get that stray lock? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) Rich meant to put it their because the baby is so plot important that Rich personally said she wasn't Haley. The baby got that lock from the mother. Men always have their fathers hairstyle and their mother's hair colour. The reverse is true for women. See Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html), Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) and Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html). Thus, the lock is from the mother as the baby has Orrin's bright red hair.

Obviously there is a direct mystery surrounding Aunt Ivy. Rich didn't answer the Ivy question intentionally. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12299486&postcount=18) We have never seen Aunt Ivy. There have been a million and one flashbacks opportunities to see Aunt Ivy and we haven't seen her once. Geoff, Ian and Ivy were playing the infiltration game. And what better disguise than Tarquin's wife? Then she became loyal to Tarquin and that's why she's been keeping Ian locked up. It's already an impossible task to stop EoB, why would someone care about keeping Ian locked up? This last bit might be false but we don't all the facts yet.

But know this. Penelope and Orrin are intricately linked to the Starshine's. Penelope is in EoB. Ivy is in EoB. We've never seen Ivy. Rich has put a mystery on Ivy. So Penelope is Aunt Ivy. Or at the very least related to the Starshine line.

The reverse could be true and it could be Orrin who is the Starshine (maybe even Ian, using his beard to cover the tattoo). But I find it more likely that the starshine line runs through Penelope than have Haley be related to one of the founders of the rift, which is pretty hamfisted.

[martianmister]

I don't think she has stray lock, we just see some of her hair to see her hair color. And there is one-shot characters with stray locks, if I remember correctly.

[Jaros]

Obviously there is a direct mystery surrounding Aunt Ivy. Rich didn't answer the Ivy question intentionally. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12299486&postcount=18)

Rich usually tries not to answer questions about the comic and I would guess (though pure assumption on my part) this is part of the reason. He doesn't answer things that would give away spoilers, but he can't answer everything else because that would lead to this. Just because he hasn't answered something about x doesn't mean x is important.

Of course, this doesn't mean Aunt Ivy isn't important, but it doesn't mean that she is just because she hasn't been shown.

As for my 2cp on the Penelope/Draketooth/Starshine connection: there could be one, but right now there isn't nearly enough to make me think think there is.

edit: And no, I don't think she looks like Haley. Or rather, I think she looks as much like Haley as she does like Samantha. Ian bears a closer resemblance to the Bandit Leader (I forget if he was given a name).

[Kish]

...Penelope's hair isn't even the same color as Haley's! Haley's hair is the orange color people call red even though it isn't, Penelope's hair is actual/Mitsuru red. (I realize you didn't say Haley's hair is the same color as Penelope's, but that means there's no physical resemblance at all, beyond them both being unambiguously-female stick figures.) Ivy is already married, to Geoff.

I dislike making assertions that I consider anything less than absolutely certain, but you've drawn me out here. It is not impossible that Penelope will turn out to be related to Haley...or Roy...probably not Elan because ew...probably not Durkon, Vaarsuvius, or Belkar because human...but there is as much evidence of Penelope being related to Haley as there is of her being related to Roy--none.

^The bandit leader was Samantha. If you mean the bandit leader's father, no, he didn't have a name. I'd say one might have helped keep him alive...but it didn't work for his daughter. Their bad luck to be chosen to demonstrate the might of a more plot-important character.

[Grey Watcher]

I don't think she has stray lock, we just see some of her hair to see her hair color. And there is one-shot characters with stray locks, if I remember correctly.

You do remember correctly. Here is but one example. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html)

[Sunken Valley]

OMG, maybe that Angel is really Haley's half celestial mother.:smalltongue:

Ok, Penelope only vaguely resembles Haley, the family line is messed up and Tarquin can remember his wives (although I still say it was a subtle hint from the author).

But that Baby girl is not going away anytime soon. Someone mentioned Samantha. Look, her dad shares her hair colour (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html). More fuel that Penelope is of the Starshine line. Otherwise, why would Rich randomly put a incriminating lock on a baby, when he could have shown no hair under that hat. Plus, we haven't seen Aunt Ivy.

With regards to Ivy being married to Jeff already, her marriage to Tarquin could be fake? I think team Starshine would have a mole in the palace.

Although, Orrin could be of the Starshine line instead. Thoughts?

[Gift Jeraff]

Someone mentioned Samantha. Look, her dad shares her hair colour (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html).Isn't Orrin and Penelope's daughter a flat-out exception to the hair colour pattern? It's a baby girl with her mother's hair colour. And Julia and Sara are an exception to the hair style pattern. (Though I'd say tracking hair styles is somewhat useless, especially for female characters. Heck, within the same strip Penelope is shown with 3 different ones.)

[Kish]

Thoughts?
My thought, is that I hope this tree has something to bite down on.

[Morty]

But that Baby girl is not going away anytime soon. Someone mentioned Samantha. Look, her dad shares her hair colour (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html). More fuel that Penelope is of the Starshine line. Otherwise, why would Rich randomly put a incriminating lock on a baby, when he could have shown no hair under that hat. Plus, we haven't seen Aunt Ivy.

It's not a good sign when your theory hinges on a completely irrelevant graphic detail appearing in a single panel.

[Howler Dagger]

Can someone please explain to me how a single strand of hair being out of place is related to genetics? I'm 99% sure that genetics can't do that.

Its like saying since both Redcloak and Roy are bald*, they must be related.

*Genetics CAN do that.

[Kish]

Some people did theorize that a black, bald bandit was going to turn out to be Roy infiltrating the bandit camp, way back when.

(Rich posted in that thread and said, "NO!" only, you know, with more words, fewer exclamation points, and a higher ratio of lowercase letters to capital ones.)

[Bad Hair Day]

It's an interesting idea. I hope you're right. It would be cool for someone to guess something this big ahead of time.

[The Underlord]

Ian's escape attempts are always stopped at the last minute. The common theory is that these are thwarted by a family member, the one person Ian would trust. This is suspected to be Geoff. But what if it was Ivy? Ivy has a clear motive of doing so. She's the wife of Tarquin himself. That stray lock of hair comes from the maternal side. Haley's mum, Ivy's sister has that lock.
Emphasis mine

Since when?

Also countdown to one of Sheep's soap operas in 3........2..........

[Howler Dagger]

Also, basing the logic on the hair lock is such a fail because the lock runs through Mia's bloodline (if thats possible) and Ivy is Ian's sister-in-law.


Also countdown to one of Sheep's soap operas in 3........2..........

1!

Clearly, Penelope is Ivy because we all know she is a traitor and since all traitors have to be related to Girard was actually girard's mother and Orrin was sent unknowingly to cause her to have a child, which was Girard reborn as Mr. Scruffy, who since we know is Half-Snarl, means that Orrin must actually be the snarl and girard is a god since the gods gave rise to the snarl. Knowing that Girard is a god, we can presume the other Scribblerites were, meaning that hinjo (who we all know is Haley's REAL father) is an aasimar, meaning so is haley. This means that geoff was aware of this and wanted to keep this info away from Ian, lest he tell haley and figure out that Orrin is the snarl.

[Gift Jeraff]

It would be cool for someone to guess something this big ahead of time.Because no one guessed that Ian would be the prisoner of Elan's father years before we even met Tarquin. :smallwink:


Also, basing the logic on the hair lock is such a fail because the lock runs through Mia's bloodline (if thats possible) and Ivy is Ian's sister-in-law.Er, pretty sure she's Ian's blood sister. Geoff is his brother-in-law (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) and Ivy's husband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html).
But your point still stands. Even if Penelope is Ivy, the hair lock on her daughter is not a hint because Ivy is not related to Mia.

[Kish]

Because no one guessed that Ian would be the prisoner of Elan's father years before we even met Tarquin. :smallwink:
To be fair, most or all of those people also thought Elan's father was Lord Tyrinar the Bloody.

[Howler Dagger]

I stand corrected.


The sad part is Gift Jeraff's theory about penelope being a dragon makes more sense then this.

[Gift Jeraff]

The sad part is Gift Jeraff's theory about penelope being a dragon makes more sense then this.I was gonna say you have me confused with someone else, but you're totally right, that was my idea. :smallbiggrin:

[Howler Dagger]

I was gonna say you have me confused with someone else, but you're totally right, that was my idea. :smallbiggrin:

It would explain how both Tarquin and Nale blame the other for killing Penelope, while lacking flaws except for improbability.

[LudiDrizzt]

You know, assuming for a second that Haley WAS adopted, and Tarquin is her father, Elan and Haley being half-brother and sister would be phenomenal.

[Kish]

Phenomenal?

...Big fan of V. C. Andrews then?

[LudiDrizzt]

*bends over*

I'm sorry, did you drop this name?

[eusticepious]

Recap of facts:

(1) Ian Starshine believes that Tarquin is threatening his family. In 772 (page 2, panel 3) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html), right after discussing the death of Haley's mother, Ian says as much -- the reason he is in this desert relates to helping his family overcome the threat from tarquin. Bozok tells us (panel 8) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) that Ian rushed off, but he does not know why.

(2) Tarquin acknowledges a resemblance between Haley and one of his wives. As OP points out the specific wife identified is less reliable.

(3) Penelope's baby has a Starshine trait, the lock of hair that appears not to come from Penelope. Evidence from hair has to be a little bit suspect given that we know there is a magic hair spa in Tarquin's castle.

(4) We have yet to see Aunt Ivy in the strip. By the same token, we have not seen Haley's mother with Xs in her eyes, and it is not clear if she was raised, etc.

(5) Divinations by Penelope failed to discover her daughter, but did lead her to learn about Draketooth. This raises the question why Penelope could learn about one but not the other.

There are a lot of ways of explaining these facts; especially because its hard to know how reliable Penelope's stories are because of memory charms and Girard being involved and an illusionist (note that the first panel of 816 highlights that everything Tarquin knows about Girard is hearsay (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) ("The first thing you need to know is, I never met the man personally but I did hear quite a bit about him from my dearly departed wife"), (2) the absence of a cut-away to Aunt Ivy makes it possible that she is another character, but remember there is a hair salon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0752.html) offering magical treatments in the castle and its possible that hair is misleading.

My guess (revised):

-Penelope has some false memories / illusory memories which is why divination is unable to find the little girl she believes is her daughter.
- There is an as-of-yet unrevealed connection between Haley and one of Tarquin's wives. The one that, from a plot perspective, it would make the most sense to be involved with is Penelope. Ian starshine believes his family is endangered by Tarquin. Ian Starshine also seems to know a bit about Girard.
- For Elan to have has happy ending, Tarquin cannot be destroyed but must be redeemed to goodness. Has Girard used illusions on Tarquin or members of his party?

[Kish]

Recap of facts:

(1) Ian Starshine believes that Tarquin is threatening his family. In 772 (page 2, panel 3) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html), right after discussing the death of Haley's mother, Ian says as much -- the reason he is in this desert relates to helping his family overcome the threat from tarquin.

No, he doesn't. I have no clue where you're getting that. In that panel he says that he's trying to fulfill Mia's dying wish by using his skills for something better than looting rich folk.

He never says or implies that his family was threatened in any way by Tarquin up until Tarquin threw him in prison, at which point Tarquin became a direct and obvious threat to the "Ian Starshine" part of Ian Starshine's family.


(2) Tarquin acknowledges a resemblance between Haley and one of his wives. As OP points out the specific wife identified is less reliable.

There is no reason to consider Tarquin's saying "my fifth wife--who was not a redhead--" unreliable, except for wanting it to be unreliable.


(5) Divinations by Penelope failed to discover her daughter, but did lead her to learn about Draketooth. This raises the question why Penelope could learn about one but not the other.

Divinations failed to discover the location of either of them, but did discover Orrin Draketooth's real name. There is no reason here to presume divination magic was more effective on Orrin than on Penelope's daughter.


- For Elan to have has happy ending, Tarquin cannot be destroyed but must be redeemed to goodness.

You greatly overestimate Elan's emotional investment in Tarquin. Yes, his father being evil makes him sad. He's promised a happy ending to this story, not a life with no sad moments from now on.

[eusticepious]

No, he doesn't. I have no clue where you're getting that. In that panel he says that he's trying to fulfill Mia's dying wish by using his skills for something better than looting rich folk.

He never says or implies that his family was threatened in any way by Tarquin up until Tarquin threw him in prison, at which point Tarquin became a direct and obvious threat to the "Ian Starshine" part of Ian Starshine's family.



Kish, sorry if I am reading too much into things for your tastes. I am an amateur at this, but an enthusiastic one. One thing that makes me think Ian feels his family is threatened in some way is Ian's sense of urgency, as Bozok relates, when describing Ian going to the western continent. In reading panel 3 of 772, I put the emphasis on what do you think I am doing "in this crappy desert". Why would Ian focus on cleaning up a random desert in the Western continent instead of Greysky City if he wants to fulfill Mia's wish? Why did he rush off there when he was in the midst of cleaning up Greysky City by reforming its thieves guild? Haley tried to foment rebellion in Azure city, but that related to her quest and she was already there, with Ian its the opposite.



There is no reason to consider Tarquin's saying "my fifth wife--who was not a redhead--" unreliable, except for wanting it to be unreliable.


-Fair point Kish. The point I am making is minimal: a relationship between Haley and Tarquin's wives is hinted at. Does fifth wife mean fifth wife? Probably, but not necessarily. That is all that anyone is saying. It is not definitive by any stretch.



Divinations failed to discover the location of either of them, but did discover Orrin Draketooth's real name. There is no reason here to presume divination magic was more effective on Orrin than on Penelope's daughter.


-Penelope learned something about Orrin but nothing (that's been revealed) about her daughter. That's all I am claiming. I find some significance in that. Maybe the only significance is that divination revealed a false name when it was present. I do not know enough about how divination works. I thought protections from divination would be equally applicable to both Orrin and the girl, but I don't know.



You greatly overestimate Elan's emotional investment in Tarquin. Yes, his father being evil makes him sad. He's promised a happy ending to this story, not a life with no sad moments from now on.
-I do not think Elan would consider killing Tarquin a happy ending, and my estimation of him is pretty well-founded. Remember he rescued Nale in 68 even after being stabbed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html). The good son redeeming the evil father would also go along with the star-wars reference in the Nale-Tarquin plot. Toppling Tarquin's empire is important to Elan, defeating Tarquin himself... I am surprised you find it an overstatement that Elan would find it distasteful to kill Tarquin.

[Kish]

-Penelope learned something about Orrin but nothing (that's been revealed) about her daughter. That's all I am claiming. I find some significance in that. Maybe the only significance is that divination revealed a false name when it was present. I do not know enough about how divination works. I thought protections from divination would be equally applicable to both Orrin and the girl, but I don't know.

I imagine she could have found out her daughter's real name...if she had thought it noteworthy to be able to learn the name she gave her.

What she couldn't find was their locations. No reason to presume information on the daughter is harder to find than information on Orrin from that.


I am surprised you find it an overstatement that Elan would find it distasteful to kill Tarquin.
There is a huge gap between "Elan would find it distasteful to kill Tarquin"--what you're saying I found an overstatement--and "Elan cannot have a happy ending if he has to kill Tarquin any time before that ending," which is what you said that I actually found an overstatement. As I said, he's promised a happy ending, not a life with no sad moments. It made him sad when he found out his father really was evil. It will make him sad when he kills his father (or learns that Xykon killed his father, or...whatever winds up happening to Tarquin).

[B.I.T.T.]

I'm not sure if this has been pointed out yet, but I think that there are probably some serious limitations to stick figures as an artistic medium and similiar looking characters is one of them. I mean truth be told Belkar and Elan also look similar except a difference in hair style and that Belkar spends more time smiling evilly then Elan does.

[Peelee]

Why would Rich randomly put a incriminating lock on a baby, when he could have shown no hair under that hat.

For the lulz? As a red herring? Because he likes the way it looks, artistically? Because he randomly decided to? Because female babies tend to have more hair on their heads than boys, and that was a simple way to visually show the baby was a girl? To show that the girl was related to Draketooth, with no genealogical significance beyond that? So we might have something to more easily recognize her if/when she appears later, before she's introduced by name? So she has more visual personality than a simple face?

Asking why he would have shown an "inciminating" lock when he could have shown no hair under the hat is about the same as asking why he randomly put an incriminating hat on the child. My theory is that she is a Favored Soul of the god Banjo, and as such must always wear headgear. Note how Rich strategically left out the part where she took lessons in several musical instruments, further developing her relationship with her god and increasing her power. It's a masterstroke, I tell ya! She is now a part of a cabal calling themselves Keep Ian Starshine Stockaded, along with two clerics and a paladin of Banjo. Wearing black and white makeup and spiked gauntlets and leather armor to appear ferocious, the band wages war to keep one man imprisoned, for reasons as yet undisclosed.

Sorry, didn't want Sheep to have all the fun.