Druid ACF?

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm trying to get into a Frostburn game and my build looks like this: Wizard 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 9. (I want my build to be accepted, so I'm not bothering to ask for Arcane Hierophant)

I've already decided to take the Swift Hunter druid variant in the SRD, since I don't need armor and I won't get Wild Shape. But I need to trade away my animal companion. A 3rd level AC isn't going to help a 15th level character. So what kinds of ACFs are there for a druid who doesn't want a pet fleshraker? I am not going to be in melee at all, so I don't want the druidic avenger or shapeshifter variants.

The approved sources are: PHB, PHB2, Completes (Arcane, Warrior, Divine, Adventurer, Scoundrel), Environment series (Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack), Spell Compendium, Magic Item compendium, though I think I can ask for specifics from other sources.

So, any ideas?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Here's the handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0)

After a quick scan, it seems like you have a lot of choices for small things (you only have the three druid levels, after all).

[Snowbluff]

Isn't a Druid without her Class-Feature-That-is-Better-Than-Most-Classes Companion and Wildshape just a Cleric with a gimpy spell-list that can't use metal armor? :smallconfused:

[sonofzeal]

No Arcane Heirophant on a Druid/Wizard Theurge makes baby kittens cry...

Can't you talk to your DM? Ask him what's a fair trade for getting in?

[NeoSeraphi]

Isn't a Druid without her Class-Feature-That-is-Better-Than-Most-Classes Companion and Wildshape just a Cleric with a gimpy spell-list that can't use metal armor? :smallconfused:

Nope. Clerics don't get nearly as many poison-based spells. :smallbiggrin:

They do get moon bolt, but so do druids, while druids also get poison at a lower level, and blood snow, winter's embrace, dehydrate, memory rot, numbing sphere.


No Arcane Heirophant on a Druid/Wizard Theurge makes baby kittens cry...
Can't you talk to your DM? Ask him what's a fair trade for getting in?

What's the point of being an arcane hierophant if I'm not staying in druid long enough to get wildshape and I don't want an animal companion? Familiar progression? Woo, big deal. Not worth fighting with the DM to get a new source approved (For all I know, he just doesn't have that book)

[Greenish]

Isn't a Druid without her Class-Feature-That-is-Better-Than-Most-Classes Companion and Wildshape just a Cleric with a gimpy spell-list that can't use metal armor? :smallconfused:Druid spell list is not by any stretch of imagination "gimpy". Take away druid's wildshape and animal companion, and what's left is a tier 1 full caster only weaker than cleric due to DMM, and even then an argument could be made in favour of druid.

[sonofzeal]

What's the point of being an arcane hierophant if I'm not staying in druid long enough to get wildshape and I don't want an animal companion? Familiar progression? Woo, big deal. Not worth fighting with the DM to get a new source approved (For all I know, he just doesn't have that book)
Better BAB, better hit dice, better skills, Ignore Arcane Spell Failure, Channel Animal/Plant... and if you're going to have a familiar, then Companion Familiar makes it better and saves you from losing xp if it dies, as well as making it far easier to get a new one.

I wouldn't say fight with the DM, but Mystic Theurge without fast entry is weak enough to deserve a bit of an upgrade, and Arcane Hierophant is tailor-made for your build. If your DM refuses to even consider it, without some good reasons, then that tells me some bad things about their personality and/or DMing style.

[NeoSeraphi]

I wouldn't say fight with the DM, but Mystic Theurge without fast entry is weak enough to deserve a bit of an upgrade, and Arcane Hierophant is tailor-made for your build. If your DM refuses to even consider it, without some good reasons, then that tells me some bad things about their personality and/or DMing style.

Eh, the DM did say after the fact that he would allow it, but I don't really care enough to change my class (making that character sheet took forever, I shudder to think if I had to redo it).

[Snowbluff]

Druid spell list is not by any stretch of imagination "gimpy". Take away druid's wildshape and animal companion, and what's left is a tier 1 full caster only weaker than cleric due to DMM, and even then an argument could be made in favour of druid.

I've played both ends of CoDzilla, and I'll upfront their are spells missing from the Druid list that Wildshape is supposed to make up for. If you are fighting with wizard spells, the contribution Druid spells are making to this built are certainly... eyebrow worthy. Walls are cool though. Wizard spells should fill the gaps.

To be honest, I find the build exceedingly confusing. Why are theurging (It's a verb nao!)? Why are we theurging Druid and Wizard? :smallconfused:

[NeoSeraphi]

To be honest, I find the build exceedingly confusing. Why are theurging (It's a verb nao!)? Why are we theurging Druid and Wizard? :smallconfused:

Here's the sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=357418). The reason is pure as day: I want to deal heavy ability score damage, and there aren't that many high level spells that do it, so I'd rather just have an insane number of low-level spells.

[Snowbluff]

Here's the sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=357418). The reason is pure as day: I want to deal heavy ability score damage, and there aren't that many high level spells that do it, so I'd rather just have an insane number of low-level spells.

May I suggest Sorcerer? You get more lower level spell, and you are already are using a limited number of wizards spells (the ability damage ones). You should get enough BFC from Druid ("Druid walls are for fighting!"). This is the probably the best use of the class, and definitely plays by it's strength. Also, maybe take Spectral Han- Oh. You have it there.

You're a smart cookie, we have interacted enough for me to know that. You've probably have already considered Sorc.

[Zaq]

Druid spell list is not by any stretch of imagination "gimpy". Take away druid's wildshape and animal companion, and what's left is a tier 1 full caster only weaker than cleric due to DMM, and even then an argument could be made in favour of druid.

Agreed. For general-purpose awesomeness, gimme the Druid list over the Cleric list any day. This changes slightly if you have Archivist-style access to way too many domains, but still, I think I'd still probably go with the Druid list overall.

They're both top-notch, but I feel like the Druid list just has an edge.

[NeoSeraphi]

May I suggest Sorcerer? You get more lower level spell, and you are already are using a limited number of wizards spells (the ability damage ones). You should get enough BFC from Druid ("Druid walls are for fighting!"). This is the probably the best use of the class, and definitely plays by it's strength. Also, maybe take Spectral Han- Oh. You have it there.

You're a smart cookie, we have interacted enough for me to know that. You've probably have already considered Sorc.

No reason for me to play sorcerer. I already have as many spells per day as a sorcerer (since I'm a focused specialist), but this way I get prepared metamagic, which means I don't need to waste my casting time, and Intelligence is a much better casting stat than Charisma to focus on (since it applies to skill points and Knowledge skills instead of just Bluff)

Best part is, even though I'm using my 5th and 6th level spell slots to cast maximized versions of my 2nd and 3rd level spells, I can still deliver them with spectral hand, since they are still 2nd and 3rd level spells.

[Snowbluff]

No reason for me to play sorcerer. I already have as many spells per day as a sorcerer (since I'm a focused specialist), but this way I get prepared metamagic, which means I don't need to waste my casting time, and Intelligence is a much better casting stat than Charisma to focus on (since it applies to skill points and Knowledge skills instead of just Bluff)

Best part is, even though I'm using my 5th and 6th level spell slots to cast maximized versions of my 2nd and 3rd level spells, I can still deliver them with spectral hand, since they are still 2nd and 3rd level spells.

See, I knew you were a smart one. Too bad about the gimpy Spontaneous caster MM use. So many poor builds that are feat starved/ beaten into submission by it.

[sonofzeal]

No reason for me to play sorcerer. I already have as many spells per day as a sorcerer (since I'm a focused specialist), but this way I get prepared metamagic, which means I don't need to waste my casting time, and Intelligence is a much better casting stat than Charisma to focus on (since it applies to skill points and Knowledge skills instead of just Bluff)

Best part is, even though I'm using my 5th and 6th level spell slots to cast maximized versions of my 2nd and 3rd level spells, I can still deliver them with spectral hand, since they are still 2nd and 3rd level spells.
One thing you may have overlooked...

If you're not using Animal Companion and Wildshape, then Spirit.Shaman/Sorcerer has a lot to offer over Druid/Wizard. Same spell lists, but Spirit Shamans have one of the best casting mechanisms in the game, and this lets you be pretty Cha-SAD, since you'll use Charisma for your DCs on both sides. Wisdom ends up fairly minor in comparison, you only need enough to retrieve your spells, and since you're casting lower level spells that isn't going to be that hard. And Spirit Shamans are kind of awesome.

[NeoSeraphi]

One thing you may have overlooked...

If you're not using Animal Companion and Wildshape, then Spirit.Shaman/Sorcerer has a lot to offer over Druid/Wizard. Same spell lists, but Spirit Shamans have one of the best casting mechanisms in the game, and this lets you be pretty Cha-SAD, since you'll use Charisma for your DCs on both sides. Wisdom ends up fairly minor in comparison, you only need enough to retrieve your spells, and since you're casting lower level spells that isn't going to be that hard. And Spirit Shamans are kind of awesome.

Hmm...you're right! I hadn't thought of that at all! Ugh...I have to go back and do all that crap...*hangs head* Thanks zeal.

[Snowbluff]

Hmm...you're right! I hadn't thought of that at all! Ugh...I have to go back and do all that crap...*hangs head* Thanks zeal.

Yes, thanks zeal. Sorcerer sounds like a great idea. :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Lol, JK. The Shaman is a class I !never! use, so it's well outside of my regular schema.

[sonofzeal]

Hmm...you're right! I hadn't thought of that at all! Ugh...I have to go back and do all that crap...*hangs head* Thanks zeal.
Yes, thanks zeal. Sorcerer sounds like a great idea. :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Lol, JK. The Shaman is a class I !never! use, so it's well outside of my regular schema.
Hehehehehe.... it's not often I ruin two people's days by mentioning a single class! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[NeoSeraphi]

Hehehehehe.... it's not often I ruin two people's days by mentioning a single class! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I can't do it. It's like, Sorcerer 4/Spirit Shaman 4/Mystic Theurge 7. I appreciate your advice, but not only are there other Tier 1 casters in the party, there are two other necromancers in the party. I can't start the game with just 5ths, when I have to fight for spotlight with 4 other single-classed full casters that have just gotten their 8ths.

The concept is good, but the two extra lost CL is just devouring me.

[sonofzeal]

I can't do it. It's like, Sorcerer 4/Spirit Shaman 4/Mystic Theurge 7. I appreciate your advice, but not only are there other Tier 1 casters in the party, there are two other necromancers in the party. I can't start the game with just 5ths, when I have to fight for spotlight with 4 other single-classed full casters that have just gotten their 8ths.

The concept is good, but the two extra lost CL is just devouring me.
Makes sense. I suppose early entry tricks are out? Dropping that to Sorcerer1/Shaman4 would help a lot. It sounds like your DM is pretty narrowminded though.

That leaves you a pretty narrow window - too high and and DM smites you, too low and you don't contribute. Are you sure this is the right campaign to be trying a Theurge build in? This seems like a recipe for disaster either way.

In any case, good luck!

[NeoSeraphi]

Makes sense. I suppose early entry tricks are out? Dropping that to Sorcerer1/Shaman4 would help a lot. It sounds like your DM is pretty narrowminded though.

That's not my DM, it's me. I don't do early entry crap. That's cheese to me. I'm playing a fair game here. My build is pretty good as a Wiz/Druid, the MAD will probably help. (He's outright said we need to spend our starting gold on more varied items than the normal stuff, so I'm not gonna get a +6 item of either, I think I'm going to be around 22 Int, 17 Wis at level 15)



That leaves you a pretty narrow window - too high and and DM smites you, too low and you don't contribute. Are you sure this is the right campaign to be trying a Theurge build in? This seems like a recipe for disaster either way.


It's an eternal winter campaign, probably the only chance I'll get to see blood wind have play. And yeah, it's not optimized, but I'm just so pumped, you know? I've never built such a themed caster before. Even if I don't contribute much, I'm definitely going to be tanking some stats!



In any case, good luck!

Why thank you!

[Zaq]

Dunno if restoring just 1 lost CL will make a difference, but you do know that Spirit Shamans get new spell levels on the Wizard schedule, not the Sorcerer schedule, right? It's an easy mistake to make, since they ARE mostly spontaneous, but that's how it goes.

[NeoSeraphi]

Dunno if restoring just 1 lost CL will make a difference, but you do know that Spirit Shamans get new spell levels on the Wizard schedule, not the Sorcerer schedule, right? It's an easy mistake to make, since they ARE mostly spontaneous, but that's how it goes.

Hmmm...

Sorc 4/Spirit Shaman 3/MT 8...

So 6ths on both sides, but a CL of 12 for sorcerer and 11 for Spirit Shaman...I dunno.

[Zaq]

That's similar to what Wizard/Druid/MT would give you, no? A little worse, but similar, at least in the short term.

Here's the real question: how long do you expect this game to last? If you expect it to go for quite a few levels, then yeah, Wizard/Druid/MT will be the best for having high-level spells, but if you expect it to end after only a level or so, that might be different.

[NeoSeraphi]

That's similar to what Wizard/Druid/MT would give you, no? A little worse, but similar, at least in the short term.

Here's the real question: how long do you expect this game to last? If you expect it to go for quite a few levels, then yeah, Wizard/Druid/MT will be the best for having high-level spells, but if you expect it to end after only a level or so, that might be different.

Good point. I don't know how long it will be. I'm hoping it'll at least go to level 20...