True naming - A idle thought

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, I just had an idle thought about truenameing. I love the fluff of truenaming, but I hate the lack of support. This is a though experiment about how to convert all of DnD3.5 to truenameing. (this also throws out all truenameing from the tomb of magic, it is an alternate rule set, not an addition)

What if there was a world that true names where common in place of magic with the following system

- Spellcraft replaced Truenameing.
- true nameing utterances came from normal spells. The DC to use a spell effect would be Spell level + desired caster level, and increases by the spells level in DC per use.
- The save DC of all utterance is determined by the spell level and the CHARISMA of the caster, regardless of class.


All spellcasting classes get learned truename spells as they level, gaining one utterance per caster level they would gain from class levels. These utterances are drawn exclusively from that classes spell list. They may pick any utterance that imitates a spell they could cast at that class level.

Beyond that casters also get a few perks. Prepared casters keep 1/2 their normal caster spell progression, and they get these as free casting of utterances that do not effect their DC's of following truenameing checks and do not require a check to use. They can use these slots to cast utterances they do not know directly, but have ether been divinely inspired or know from a spell book (basically the normal means for them to get the spell)

Spontaneous casters instead gain an extra utterance known ever odd level, and every even level select an utterance they know and may count that utterance as one level lower or determining how much the DC of the spellcraft check increases with each use.

Clerics follow their own rules. They do not have a free spell pool like prepared casters, instead they gain the spells from their domains as utterances at the levels they would normally be able to cast those spells.

A Utterance must be cast with a base CL of (spell level-1) X(2)+1 (basically the minimum caster level for a wizard to cast the effect)

GP cost components are instead do HP damage to the caster. The caster takes gp/10 hp damage that can not be healed or regenerated in any magical way. This effect bypasses any magical temp HP, and cannot be soaked by DR, resistance, or immunity of any kind. Basically it must heal naturally, no way around it.

Exp costs are as normal. Focus's are now one time exp costs of gp value/50 exp. (prepared casters do not need to expend EXP for a focus for utterances that they prepare in their free slots, they get to skip that cost entirely)

Metamagic increases the required DC for the utterance by adjustment X3, and adds the level adjustment to all further uses of that utterance that day.

Any class can learn utterances, and classes can learn utterances from other class lists through the Know Utterance Feat. This allows the taker to learn one utterance from any list of no greater CL requirement than their HD. You must invest ranks in spellcraft yourself though.

Thoughts? This started as a small thought and just kinda grew outwards as I started typing. What do I need to flesh out and what abuse do you see happening? The intent is a high magic game, so I am ok with that.

[Flickerdart]

Spell level + CL is an absolutely trivial check at any level; this idea has been entertained before, and doing the math makes it painfully apparent. For instance, a 1st level caster needs to hit a DC2 check, a 5th level caster needs to hit a DC8 check, a 10th level caster needs to hit a DC15 check, a 15th level caster needs to hit a DC23 check, and a 20th level caster needs to hit a DC29 check. The absolute most basic spellcaster at 20th (23 ranks + 10 Intelligence) would be able to use each of his 9th level spells two times before he even needed to roll a check at all. With a bare minimum of optimization (+2 masterwork tool, +3 Skill Focus, 3 more points from Intelligence) we're now looking at 6 uses of each 9th level spell before rolling. And that's not even getting into the ridiculous metamagic rules.

[Psyren]

Didn't Pathfinder already do this? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power) Or you could crib some ideas from it at least.

If what you really want is a skills-based magic system, Green Ronin has the Psychic's Handbook - just change the fluff and add verbal components to everything.

[Fouredged Sword]

In thinking about this I find the parts I like best lie in making the caster class feel different, make multiclassing spellcasters easier, and make all spellcasters somewhat mad (three stats should be required for spellcasting, just like three stats are required for melee)

I like the idea of 0th level spells basically being throw away spells. Anyone who learns one can use it without roll (they have DC1) and without increasing the spell DC.

Refining my thoughts I agree, spellcasters need higher DC's for the high level spells. A good check at level 20 looks something like..

23 ranks, 10 mod, 10 roll, 10 mic bonuses.. 53. One would have to crack down on skill boosting abuse, but it could be made manageable. It is breakable, but not overly so.

So maybe spell level + CLX2, granting us a DC to cast a 9th level spell of 34+9, 43. Increasing to 52, then 61 with the second and third cast.

I also feel the need to bring wisdom into the casting mechanic to make spellcasters more mad. I think changing spellcraft to a wis based skill would do it. That way you need int to get the ranks, wis to improve the skill itself, and charisma to boost DC of their abilities.

Also I tend to play in the earlier levels. I think this system would mesh well with e6, as spell casters would have more uses of their low level abilities, but would be prevented from lots of skill booster abuse.

[Psyren]

In thinking about this I find the parts I like best lie in making the caster class feel different, make multiclassing spellcasters easier, and make all spellcasters somewhat mad (three stats should be required for spellcasting, just like three stats are required for melee)

What? No they're not. For Str-based melee, all Dex is giving you is AC, and there are many more sources of AC than your dex mod. For dex-based melee, all Str is giving you is damage, but you still don't need Str for that when bonus damage is so much more useful. And while Con is useful to both, all it gives you is HP, which is itself available from a variety of sources.

The best asset in melee (miss chance) is not dependent on any of these stats, while simultaneously scaling better than any of them.

[Rossebay]

As a suggestion, DC could be 10+Spell level+Desired Caster Level (Minimum level required to cast the spell, no real maximum).

Now, spell effects could often be based on the other two ability modifiers (Intelligence and Wisdom), but I feel as though the specialization in an Intelligence or Wisdom-based field should really classify you as Arcane or Divine.

Edit: So, if we take 1 first level spell at CL 1 for a first level Truenamer, then they have to beat DC 12 with, probably, (assuming 18 in casting stat) a +11 bonus. (Skill focus and such)
Even then, they cannot possibly fail to cast the spell, which really doesn't make things risky. And if you do 20+Spell Level+Desired CL, it just seems a little silly.

[Incanur]

For Str-based melee, all Dex is giving you is AC,

What about that thing you roll for at the start of combat? I'm sure it's not important, but I think higher Dex gives you a boost. :smallwink:


And while Con is useful to both, all it gives you is HP,

And a bonus that old not-dying check.


The best asset in melee (miss chance) is not dependent on any of these stats, while simultaneously scaling better than any of them.

:smallconfused: That's giving miss chances entirely too much credit.

[DementedFellow]

I'm all for revamping the truenaming system. How would you handle metamagics?

Edit: This was answered in the OP but I suck at reading apparently.

[Psyren]

What about that thing you roll for at the start of combat? I'm sure it's not important, but I think higher Dex gives you a boost. :smallwink:

It's important for all of one round, getting it from Dex is limited by your armor, and there are other ways to boost it besides burning your point-buy on it.



And a bonus that old not-dying check.

If you find yourself frequently rolling the not-dying check, you're doing something wrong. And there are other ways to boost that too.


:smallconfused: That's giving miss chances entirely too much credit.

It scales faster than AC, and applies to touch attacks. How am I giving it too much credit?

[Incanur]

It's important for all of one round, getting it from Dex is limited by your armor, and there are other ways to boost it besides burning your point-buy on it.

Sure, but that first round can be critical. Consider what happens when two pouncing barbarians encounter one another. I'm not saying you should shoot for Dex above all else, but many of the best melee builds - chargers, AoO-based battlefield controllers, etc - benefit significantly from the ability.


If you find yourself frequently rolling the not-dying check, you're doing something wrong.

Fort saves in general can come up in melee combat. It's better to save than to fail.


And there are other ways to boost that too.

There are other ways to boost just about everything. The polymorph line alone arguably makes physical abilities irrelevant.


It scales faster than AC, and applies to touch attacks. How am I giving it too much credit?

So would you say that beguilers are awesome in melee?

[Siosilvar]

So would you say that beguilers are awesome in melee?

Better than others who don't have offensive melee capability? Yes.

Just because something's good or even the best thing around for combat doesn't mean everybody with it is going to be good at combat. But once you get the basics (to-hit and damage), getting a miss chance is one of the best options.

[Psyren]

Sure, but that first round can be critical. Consider what happens when two pouncing barbarians encounter one another. I'm not saying you should shoot for Dex above all else, but many of the best melee builds - chargers, AoO-based battlefield controllers, etc - benefit significantly from the ability.

Sure, initiative is useful. But Dex is the least efficient way to boost it.


Fort saves in general can come up in melee combat. It's better to save than to fail.

Also true, but there are better ways besides pouring points into Con, and the best defense is not actually having to make those saves at all. (Disease/poison/drain immunity etc.)

If you have more than 16 Con from point buy/score boosts, you're either a meldshaper, a DFA, or you have points to burn suboptimally.


There are other ways to boost just about everything. The polymorph line alone arguably makes physical abilities irrelevant.

If you're polymorphing all the time, you're a caster and the physical scores were never especially relevant to you to begin with.


So would you say that beguilers are awesome in melee?

Best asset != only asset.

[DementedFellow]

Pardon me for calling it out in the open, but how are melee stats and their participation in battle germane to discussion on how mental stats should affect spells?

[Psyren]

I refuted the claim that all three stats are "necessary" for melee as a false equivalency for making all three mental stats necessary for magic. Incanur decided to try and take me on, and here we are.

[Incanur]

Each physical abilities helps in melee combat, while Wis and Cha do almost nothing for the wizard. (Wis boosts will saves, which often matter for magical combat. That's about it.) No barbarian guide will tell you to dump Dex and Con, while every wizard guide will tell you to dump Wis and Cha. In this sense, Fouredged Sword made a valid point.

[sreservoir]

If you have more than 16 Con from point buy/score boosts, you're either a meldshaper, a DFA, or you have points to burn suboptimally.

NADs can pretty much put all their points into con, too,and sprinkle the rest just enough to not take penalties to things they want. it's not like they need the other abilities.

[Fouredged Sword]

I want there to be something you are giving up by not having a good cha, wiz, or int.

In this system you don't truly need any of it. If you stick to non save based spells and focus mostly on spellcasting with no needed skills you can focus entirely on wis.